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Multi Phase boss battles...cheap or fair?
- Thread starter Ghost of Caelid
- Start date
Fbh
Member
When done right they are great.
The monkey coming back to life in Sekiro is one of the most memorable moments in the game.
Or in the Old Hunters DLC when Ludwig picks ups the Sword (not a second health bar though) and the music kicks up to 11it really elevated it to one of my favourite boss fights ever.
But it can also be done poorly. Specially in some JRPG's where you have to fight through multiple forms with inflated health bars and if you die in the final third phase you have to spend half and hour fighting through the first 2 again.
I think that's why they work in FROM games, because even if the boss has multiple phases, in 10 minutes either you or the boss will be dead.
The monkey coming back to life in Sekiro is one of the most memorable moments in the game.
Or in the Old Hunters DLC when Ludwig picks ups the Sword (not a second health bar though) and the music kicks up to 11it really elevated it to one of my favourite boss fights ever.
But it can also be done poorly. Specially in some JRPG's where you have to fight through multiple forms with inflated health bars and if you die in the final third phase you have to spend half and hour fighting through the first 2 again.
I think that's why they work in FROM games, because even if the boss has multiple phases, in 10 minutes either you or the boss will be dead.
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NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Bed of Chaos and O&S completely change the rules of their respective fights, but they don’t make the fight just harder adding enemies and/or making them extremely more aggressive for the sake of it. O&S especially is a notable exception because it can be argued that the first part is actually harder, putting you in a 2 vs 1 situation against enemies much nimbler than the Gargoyles and challenging you in a way the game really didn’t up to that point. DS3 is always, always upping the ante. DS3 feels like the devs are openly mocking you with one more phase, one more cheap attack, one more hit added to an already stupidly long combo (looking at you, Soul of Cinder).
I don’t see how your other examples make my statement hypocritical, though. They’re not really multi-phase enemies, and there’s ways to make them easier or just cheese them. And the part about Seath... sorry, I really don’t see your point there.
NeverYouMind
Member
The point is simple. You are putting Dark Souls 1 on a pedestal despite it throwing similar bullshit (if not even worse shit) at a player, which you condemn the sequels for doing. That is intellectually dishonest no matter how hard you may try to spin why Dark Souls 1 is the exception.
A lot of examples provided related directly to this part of your statement:
A lot of examples provided related directly to this part of your statement:
Nemesis Prime
Member
The craziest one is the final boss in sekiro, I just gave up I was too burnt out by that point
Wildebeest
Member
Dark Souls 1 was a more experimental phase of their boss fight mechanics than the other games. While it felt less polished, and had some annoying jank like Capra Demon and Bed of Chaos, it also had bosses that did not stick to such a rigid formula. You were encouraged from the start to use plunging attacks and find tricks like baiting them off the edge of a wall or hitting a weak spot at a certain time to one shot them. You could learn tricks like how demon bosses were weak to bleed damage. Call it "cheese" if you like, or cheap tricks that cheat you from having to learn every attack animation in the game by heart, but this gives it a more adventure story type feeling when combined with other elements like the cohesively linked game world areas. It is the most ambitious souls game, even if it isn't always the most accomplished.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Just a weird question.. to me "cheap" in a game would be something that can't be beaten or avoided w/ skill.. like blue shells in dumbass Mario Kiddy Kart...
Anything else in a game is perfectly "fair".. the game is the game.. if it's hard it's hard.
I judge boss battles like I judge everything else about a game.. is it fun? Some of the best, and some of the worst, are multi-phase.. but they are all "fair" as long as they aren't just randomly insta-killing you.
Anything else in a game is perfectly "fair".. the game is the game.. if it's hard it's hard.
I judge boss battles like I judge everything else about a game.. is it fun? Some of the best, and some of the worst, are multi-phase.. but they are all "fair" as long as they aren't just randomly insta-killing you.
Wildebeest
Member
Fromsoft bosses are known for having inconsistent hitboxes which make things seem random and RNG in terms of attack chains, but those things are oddly seen as being "consistent" elements of the design and not cheap. If you see "moving goalposts" in fights as cheap or fair tools that the developers use consistently to increase the drama level of fights is also subjective. To me, the question is how low effort a design choice feels and if it just seems to be used to pad out content.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Well in that you could say "having to figure out the hitbox each play through" is part of the challenge.. kind of like how when you first play most bosses, you don't know the hit box..but I've never played a Fromsoft game. However that doesn't sound cheap to me.. just an extra challenge to figure out.
For me it's more about finding anything actually "rubber-bandy" to be cheap... if I'm kicking ass and the game goes "nope" arbitrarily (like blue shells) it's just.. lame.. discourages ever really kicking ass in the first place.
DevilMayFlyForAWhiteGuy
Member
I think if the game tells you that there’s multiple phases, like Sekiro does, then that’s a bit more “fair,” because then you can go into the fight knowing “okay I have to make my health items last for X amount of phases.”
Dark Souls 3 doesn’t tell you and you have to kind of guess which bosses will have multiple phases, and the the DLCs really start just having every boss be multi-phase battles so it’s basically expected at that point. On repeat playthroughs it’s not a problem, but on an initial playthrough it can definitely feel like the game “tricked” you into thinking you were safe using most of your Estus on the first phase, not knowing it was only the first.
Of course I’ve brought this up before and gotten the response of “just be good and don’t need health potions,” but I’m talking initial playthrough where you’re first learning the bosses, so yeah you’re likely gonna be using Estus.
Dark Souls 3 doesn’t tell you and you have to kind of guess which bosses will have multiple phases, and the the DLCs really start just having every boss be multi-phase battles so it’s basically expected at that point. On repeat playthroughs it’s not a problem, but on an initial playthrough it can definitely feel like the game “tricked” you into thinking you were safe using most of your Estus on the first phase, not knowing it was only the first.
Of course I’ve brought this up before and gotten the response of “just be good and don’t need health potions,” but I’m talking initial playthrough where you’re first learning the bosses, so yeah you’re likely gonna be using Estus.
Bragr
Banned
Yeah, that one was insane. When you run out of the castle as it crumbles, and he turns into the giant pig and comes out from under the rubble, and Zelda helps you out with her light arrows. Jesus, absolutely legendary fight.
Bragr
Banned
It's hard to discuss boss fights during this age because people are afraid to criticize difficulty. There is this silent wow among gamers that you can't call out some of the Soulsborne bosses for being straight-up shit, but some of them are.So I'm a soulsborne vet...I beat every soulsborne game and dark souls 3 and bloodborne a plethora of times...but I'm playing the DLCs for the first time. This isnt a "make the game easier" post, but a post discussing the design philosophy of multiphase bosses. Now Sister Friede is considered one of the tougher bosses in the soulsborne franchises and I was excited to play her...but shes not hard because her move set...shes hard because she has 3 god damn phases and by the time you get to phase three you are low on items more than anything....this is why I hate multiphased bosses who have multiple health bars. If its like Pontiff Sulivan who switches up mid battle thats cool, but when they die and revive a whole new health bar it just feels cheap. Lothric princes have this problem too. Now back to the grind...I got to the third phase on my 10th attempt but yea...multiple phased bosses are annoying.
I thought the last boss in Kena was terrible because it takes too fucking long to get back to phase 3 if you die, some of the Soulsborne bosses are like this too. As well as Cuphead.
Metroid Dream solved this like a charm, once you learn a phase you can get through it in a very short amount of time. It's something more games need to learn from.
Vangellis
Member
The exact reason I loved it
. That fight feels fucking impossible, but the high of beating it. Yum so good.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
It's easy, the trick is to never hesitate.
Hawks Eclipse
Member
I've long been of the opinion that GOW3's Hades fight is one of the high watermarks for GOW boss fights and arguably the best boss fight in GOW3 itself.
Good tells, good escalation, contextually (story and progression-wise) very fitting. It's really well executed on all fronts.
In contrast, Poseidon was one helluva setpiece but mechanically dull and boring. Granted he was essentially a tutorial boss fight, but still.
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
Yea thats cool...I dont mind if one phase is almost impossible...but three...ehhhh
GametimeUK
Member
Mutliple phases is fine if the phases are on a single health bar.
I hate nothing more than using my consumables to beat the boss based on its remaining health only to find another health bar appears afterwards. It fucking sucks. I'll start popping healing items like candy if the boss is on low health just to be on the safe side... and then regret it when I see ANOTHER health bar.
It's cheap and unfair.
I hate nothing more than using my consumables to beat the boss based on its remaining health only to find another health bar appears afterwards. It fucking sucks. I'll start popping healing items like candy if the boss is on low health just to be on the safe side... and then regret it when I see ANOTHER health bar.
It's cheap and unfair.
TonyK
Member
That is like saying: it's easy, the trick is to win.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
I am happy to say fromsoft learned their lesson...most of the bosses in ER have both phases on one health bar...only a handful have a new healthbar on phase 2.
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Multiple phases stages of Ganon boss fights is right what happens is there’s multiple transformations and you get more bang for the buck.
Knightime_X
Member
Depends on the game.
Some do it a hell of a lot better than others and don't even heavily rely on difficulty to make them memorable.
Some do it a hell of a lot better than others and don't even heavily rely on difficulty to make them memorable.
Jigsaah
Gold Member
Absolutely not fair....and that's the beauty. Overcoming unfair odds just makes it more satisfying. It's like 1 v X'ing in the Forest in Dark Souls. Come out on top and you just feel like an absolute legend.So I'm a soulsborne vet...I beat every soulsborne game and dark souls 3 and bloodborne a plethora of times...but I'm playing the DLCs for the first time. This isnt a "make the game easier" post, but a post discussing the design philosophy of multiphase bosses. Now Sister Friede is considered one of the tougher bosses in the soulsborne franchises and I was excited to play her...but shes not hard because her move set...shes hard because she has 3 god damn phases and by the time you get to phase three you are low on items more than anything....this is why I hate multiphased bosses who have multiple health bars. If its like Pontiff Sulivan who switches up mid battle thats cool, but when they die and revive a whole new health bar it just feels cheap. Lothric princes have this problem too. Now back to the grind...I got to the third phase on my 10th attempt but yea...multiple phased bosses are annoying.
Jennings
Member
I get so despondent after defeating a boss after a couple days of head bashing only to see a second phase. My most recent depression came when I felled Melinia in Elden Ring and sputtered to my wife across the house, "I finally beat that stupid fucking whorebitch!"... only to then see a phase 2 begin as I sat exasperated and tearful as I got obliterated a second later. I've since killed her, but in this instance my elation at victory didn't match the severity of my frustration at a phase 2.
Some phases are very welcome though, like the Guardian Ape's freaky jaw-dropping second phase in Sekiro.
Some phases are very welcome though, like the Guardian Ape's freaky jaw-dropping second phase in Sekiro.
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cinnamonandgravy
Member
boss fights as a whole need to be overhauled.
9 out of 10 times it's just an enclosed area, against some big guy with annoying attacks you're forced to beat before you can proceed to the next area. tedious.
9 out of 10 times it's just an enclosed area, against some big guy with annoying attacks you're forced to beat before you can proceed to the next area. tedious.
March Climber
Member
A good challenge means making a better boss fight, not more health bars. Mike Tyson from Punch Out only needed one to be memorable.
Kokoloko85
Member
2-3 tops.
Some bosses dont know when to stop. Capcom sometimes does good with this and sometimes awfu…. ( Sigma, RE5 boss )
Also some Final Fantasy/ Square last bosses……. Probably my least favourite thing about FF
Some bosses dont know when to stop. Capcom sometimes does good with this and sometimes awfu…. ( Sigma, RE5 boss )
Also some Final Fantasy/ Square last bosses……. Probably my least favourite thing about FF
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Kokoloko85
Member
March Climber
Member
I bet I know what you're speaking of: Horror games that aren't resident evil. Awful combat, worse bosses. They don't need either to be scary.
Kokoloko85
Member
Yeah they can defo go off the list lol
Shining Star
Neo Member
Nope they are good and epic tho I haven't played those games.
Raven117
Member
I hate it and find it a completely b.s. mechanic. It artificially makes the fight longer.
Want to make a hard boss? Great. Do it. Let me fight it straight up and learn it rather than learn the first phase....then...a totally new phase...because...lol, not my final form! Then...I have the irritation of fighting the first phase over and over to get to the second phase...which now is harder to practice and get better....for no reason.
Its stupid.
Want to make a hard boss? Great. Do it. Let me fight it straight up and learn it rather than learn the first phase....then...a totally new phase...because...lol, not my final form! Then...I have the irritation of fighting the first phase over and over to get to the second phase...which now is harder to practice and get better....for no reason.
Its stupid.
