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November 2021 US NPD

GhostOfTsu

Banned
This is a massive wall of text not justified by any data. You are also exactly parroting what Piscatella said, so you are essentially presenting his "analysis" as your own.

However Piscatella didn't provide any data either, and I find his conclusion more than dubious on a massively down month. For example, Forza Horizon 5 debuted at number 4 on a game that runs on XSX, XSS, X1X and X1. It got beat by Pokemon where digital sales were not even included, and digital sales WERE included for FH5. That to me does not scream an amplification effect at all. And that's WITH all of the incentive to buy FH5 early. Remember what some were saying at the FH5 launch on this board?
He also fails to mention that FH5 was on Steam Day 1 so the growth might come from there. MS could give FH5 for free on the MS store (they kind of do already with GP) and a big chunk of PC players would still buy it on Steam.

(FH4 launched on Steam in 2021, almost 3 years later. FH3 was never on Steam or it was delisted)
 
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However Piscatella didn't provide any data either, and I find his conclusion more than dubious on a massively down month. For example, Forza Horizon 5 debuted at number 4 on a game that runs on XSX, XSS, X1X and X1. It got beat by Pokemon where digital sales were not even included, and digital sales WERE included for FH5. That to me does not scream an amplification effect at all. And that's WITH all of the incentive to buy FH5 early. Remember what some were saying at the FH5 launch on this board?
Weird way to downplay the best selling Forza Horizon ever.
 
BEAST! Switch going to be the best selling console of 2 consecutive generations at this rate which is absolutely remarkable. Left the PS4 for dead last gen and is now destroying all this gen. Absolutely insane. That PS2 record is going down unless Nintendo for some reason decide that they don't like selling consoles and making bank. A price drop to USD$199 and no successor announcement and they'll probably sell another 100 million of them with ease.

Also good to see the "enthusiast forum" concern for COD yet again proving that you should ignore the general consensus on places like this. All that hand wringing and concern about the physical sales numbers dropping lots in this almost entirely digital world, yet as expected, it's still the best selling game lol.

Also all the concern and narratives about Game Pass killing game sales, yet Forza Horizon 5 charts only behind 3 of the biggest franchises in the industry lol. Basically if there is overwhelming concern from a certain group of "enthusiasts" on here, there is nothing to worry about.

Series S doing exactly what it was made to do too - be available and be cheap. The switch isn't sold out yet sells insanely well, yet people think that the Series S not being instantly sold out all the time means no one wants it lol. Loving all the constant downplaying attempts by the usual suspects lol. Sony coming last in the NPDs for the biggest month of the year really got them shook.

Pro Wrestling Sport GIF by ALL ELITE WRESTLING
 

Dr Bass

Member
Weird way to downplay the best selling Forza Horizon ever.
Not really. I'm not trying to downplay anything at all, I am looking at results, and simply saying, here are the results and here is how things are obviously playing out based on results. I think in contrast this constant trying to creative a narrative based on how someone wishes things were versus what they actually are is far more "weird."
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
IMO, it means that services like GP remove the blanket of marketing glitz for otherwise mediocre games that would get a pass into tricking a customer of purchase through the traditional model, because they could fool that person with slick ads, or paid reviews
Or pretty graphics.
What? That's pretty much the primary acquisition tool for paid-games, especially on consoles.

When a game's on a service like GamePass, those type of tricks don't work as well anymore; the game has to stand on its own quality and merits to convince the user it's something they want to invest further into, whether that be time played, additional content purchased, buying the game outright, or a mixture of all three of those things.
We already have decades worth of data(with billions of users) on retention psychology with 'free access' models - unfortunately it doesn't work like any of the above, and forums like this one aren't exactly fans of biggest real retention drivers - go figure.
But more fun - the primary factor(by huge margin) in how likely a user is to spend more, is whether they've spent something just before - factors around quality and other things may as well be statistical error in comparison. Let that sink in for awhile.
 
Not really. I'm not trying to downplay anything at all, I am looking at results, and simply saying, here are the results and here is how things are obviously playing out based on results. I think in contrast this constant trying to creative a narrative based on how someone wishes things were versus what they actually are is far more "weird."
Idk, you arbitrarily compared FH5 to a small indie game called Pokemon, and failed to mention that it's the best selling FH game ever.
 

Dr Bass

Member
Idk, you arbitrarily compared FH5 to a small indie game called Pokemon, and failed to mention that it's the best selling FH game ever.
How is FH5 being the best selling FH germane to the discussion of what effect Game Pass has on sales as a whole and what was being claimed by Piscatella?

People were here saying how FH5 was going to be this massive event and how explosive it was going to be for the platform in the FH5 threads. I didn't think that would necessarily be the case but I didn't say anything. I wanted to see the results.

So that's great for FH it was their biggest launch yet. It was a game also available on far more platforms at launch than FH4 was, so that surely contributed. And it was also available for two more weeks than Pokemon, which was released in the last third of the month, while FH launched November 4th. And it still lost out to Pokemon's physical only sales.

Again, that to me does not match up with the narrative that was being sold here among some, and it turns out ... I was right. It might have been the biggest launch they had but yet again, it doesn't seem like it's going to move the needle for the platform and based on the fact it came in fourth (with all platforms and physical/digital combined) to physical only sales of a Switch game available for 12 days out of the month ... I'd say it was not a "huge hit" regardless of the "best ever sales." I mean, didn't Metroid Dread also have the best launch of any Metroid game ever? So what? I'm not sure what your point about this is. FH5 had the biggest launch of FH ever. Awesome. It's still not the biggest seller around for a platform that is somewhat defined by Forza. That to me doesn't seem that good if we are talking about sales.

The question was does Game Pass help sales? I think the data still points to "no" based on sales splits between PS/Xbox and the fact that Xbox's second biggest franchise falls where it does on this month's sales charts. And Xbox's game sales in general. Some of you surely think I'm anti-Xbox, which could not be further from the truth. I actually just got an XSX via yesterday's Walmart drop, and sold my PS5 earlier this year. I'm excited to get it. All I'm saying is that results matter.

Let's see some data that shows otherwise before we start saying otherwise.
 
How is FH5 being the best selling FH germane to the discussion of what effect Game Pass has on sales as a whole and what was being claimed by Piscatella?

People were here saying how FH5 was going to be this massive event and how explosive it was going to be for the platform in the FH5 threads. I didn't think that would necessarily be the case but I didn't say anything. I wanted to see the results.

So that's great for FH it was their biggest launch yet. It was a game also available on far more platforms at launch than FH4 was, so that surely contributed. And it was also available for two more weeks than Pokemon, which was released in the last third of the month, while FH launched November 4th. And it still lost out to Pokemon's physical only sales.

Again, that to me does not match up with the narrative that was being sold here among some, and it turns out ... I was right. It might have been the biggest launch they had but yet again, it doesn't seem like it's going to move the needle for the platform and based on the fact it came in fourth (with all platforms and physical/digital combined) to physical only sales of a Switch game available for 12 days out of the month ... I'd say it was not a "huge hit" regardless of the "best ever sales." I mean, didn't Metroid Dread also have the best launch of any Metroid game ever? So what? I'm not sure what your point about this is. FH5 had the biggest launch of FH ever. Awesome. It's still not the biggest seller around for a platform that is somewhat defined by Forza. That to me doesn't seem that good if we are talking about sales.

The question was does Game Pass help sales? I think the data still points to "no" based on sales splits between PS/Xbox and the fact that Xbox's second biggest franchise falls where it does on this month's sales charts. And Xbox's game sales in general. Some of you surely think I'm anti-Xbox, which could not be further from the truth. I actually just got an XSX via yesterday's Walmart drop, and sold my PS5 earlier this year. I'm excited to get it. All I'm saying is that results matter.

Let's see some data that shows otherwise before we start saying otherwise.
There you go again, arbitrarily comparing it to Pokemon. Really weird flex.

The sales splits from the UK physical threads were debunked as misleading information since Xbox sales skew digital.
 

reksveks

Member
Did you just quote yourself to prove your own point? :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Come on now. Can you point to hard data instead of your own tweets and some excel screenshot with numbers typed in it?
So are you using physical game sales? I take it.

1) those cod figures aren't my numbers; they are from install base forum but if you want to see the calculations you can have a look at articles and tweets below from Chris at gi.biz

For FC6:
FC including digital sales - https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...k-at-no-1-after-oled-launch-uk-monthly-charts
FC first week - https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ng-metroid-game-in-uk-history-uk-boxed-charts
Explainer: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/forz...s-no-1-uk-boxed-charts.1623811/post-265049801

COD:

First Week sales : https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ysical-sales-continue-to-slow-uk-boxed-charts
Physical/Digital Splits:
Launch Sales including Digital
The Calculations:

Feel free to do your own calculations.

Also feel to try to figure out why Ubisoft’s revenue per consoles is much more in line with the console splits aka 34:19 than UK physical sales ratio.
 
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Or pretty graphics.
What? That's pretty much the primary acquisition tool for paid-games, especially on consoles.

I'll agree that slick graphics are also a part of that, but I'd say the presentation of those graphics in marketing campaigns is the bigger factor. Adverts will always show things in their best light, but if that product is made available for a user to experience themselves, any flaws present have a greater chance of being seen.

We already have decades worth of data(with billions of users) on retention psychology with 'free access' models - unfortunately it doesn't work like any of the above, and forums like this one aren't exactly fans of biggest real retention drivers - go figure.

I can see this being the case, primarily for mainstream and casual people within the ecosystem or of the IP in question. However, I don't think my own point is necessarily invalidated; it's nothing video game-related but Defunctland did an excellent documentary on Disney's FastPass (coincidence in naming, I'm sure) system for their theme parks, and breaks down FastPass usage depending on parkgoer type. What it showed is that the more hardcore/core parkgoers were willing to spend into the system to maximize usage of it, and I think we're seeing something similar when it comes to subscribers of these subscription services.

Which leads into:

But more fun - the primary factor(by huge margin) in how likely a user is to spend more, is whether they've spent something just before - factors around quality and other things may as well be statistical error in comparison. Let that sink in for awhile.

Well if we equate that to the argument of services like GamePass acting as a boost to certain games, then it would only work if the idea is that paying for the service naturally leads to the person spending more, in this case a copy of the game already within the service. But I don't think that can be applied in this scenario because the type of gamers going out to purchase a game in spite of it being in the service are more likely to be the sort who DO value factors like quality, or IP familiarity, of the product into their purchasing decisions.

They are likely the more hardcore and core fans of that IP or ecosystem, who are more inclined to make the purchase with a mentality partly in line with the things I was discussing earlier (if there's a more specific, technical description for that type of thing I would need to look it up).

Dr Bass Dr Bass Dude...what are you trying to spin 🤣? Matt actually has access to the data, which is why he's making the claim. He's also observed this over the course of the past year or so. You are arguing against him when it makes no sense, we already have the data proving what things are with services like GamePass. It's time for you to decide whether you want to believe the facts in front of you, or deny them because they don't fit your idea of what you want to be.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Also feel to try to figure out why Ubisoft’s revenue per consoles is much more in line with the console splits aka 34:19 than UK physical sales ratio.

This has been the flashing neon sign in reports from every publisher that releases this info. The thing about Xbox users never buying games has always been hilarious due to that. Even the information that Sony arranged to receive a bonus when their player base spends less money (IE under performs) than Xbox and Nintendo users didn't stop this argument.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
I'll agree that slick graphics are also a part of that, but I'd say the presentation of those graphics in marketing campaigns is the bigger factor. Adverts will always show things in their best light, but if that product is made available for a user to experience themselves, any flaws present have a greater chance of being seen.
Of course - adverts add an extra layer of glitz, but ultimately both serve the same purpose.

Well if we equate that to the argument of services like GamePass acting as a boost to certain games, then it would only work if the idea is that paying for the service naturally leads to the person spending more
It does. Eg: adding subscription options to services(say, a F2P game) generates more engagement, more overall spend, along with more user-retention. This is orthogonal to 'type' of users we're talking about - maybe 'core' are boosted more than others, but that's ancillary when we're dealing with userbases that go into millions or tens of millions (or more).
My main point was that it works both ways though - service like GP encourages game-design decisions that support all this, so the more successful subscriptions become, the more games made for it will evolve to focus on said aspects (retention loops, repeat monetization etc.)
It's early days, and jury's still out on long-term success of the service itself though.
 

Havoc2049

Member
This is a massive wall of text not justified by any data. You are also exactly parroting what Piscatella said, so you are essentially presenting his "analysis" as your own.

However Piscatella didn't provide any data either, and I find his conclusion more than dubious on a massively down month. For example, Forza Horizon 5 debuted at number 4 on a game that runs on XSX, XSS, X1X and X1. It got beat by Pokemon where digital sales were not even included, and digital sales WERE included for FH5. That to me does not scream an amplification effect at all. And that's WITH all of the incentive to buy FH5 early. Remember what some were saying at the FH5 launch on this board?

We need more data, and we need actual numbers. Nobody is providing them on the Game Pass side. And I don't see how GP will be a sales amplifier at all. Why on Earth would you buy games that you have complete access to, forever? I could see it helping some smaller indie games that have a limited time exposure on the platform, but for MS first party stuff that will be available perpetually on the service? It makes no sense. People are signing up to GP to get a deal. Signing up to spend money on that service and buying games on top of that goes against everything sub services are built for. ∑e've already seen the insane splits on 3rd party games with 80/20 (or worse if I remember correctly) percentages in favor of PS over Xbox for no good reason other than GP is conditioning Xbox only games to not buy games. That is the best data we seem to have so far (I don't remember splits like that at all last gen) and those are the results we need to be going by until some other data actually presents itself to show something different.

Does Netflix increase iTunes movie purchases? I really, really doubt it.

So it will go with GP. As it seems to be doing already.
Your argument is outdated. Microsoft has moved on from game sales. The digital+physical sales for Forza Horizon 5 still paints an incomplete picture of how much money the game generated in November and how it faired against the competition. Also, you didn't need to buy the $99 Premium Edition of FH5 to gain early access to FH5. All Game Pass subscribers had to do was buy the Premium Add-on Bundle for $45 USD. All the people who did that don't count as a game sold. FH5 had a little over a million people playing before launch, over 3 million on launch day and over 10 million now. Many of these people didn't buy a copy of the game, but they probably are buying digital content in the game, such as upgrade bundles, expansion packs, car packs, VIP Passes, etc. Launch window game sales are nice, but having a large paid subscription player base to sell digital content to over a long period of time is where the big money is at.
 

reksveks

Member
Xbox is doing things REALLY well this gen, very good job. Theyve totally closed the gap with Sony from the previous gen. If they keep this momentum going i can see Sony going 3rd place next gen.

LOL, I don't think you can make that statement but they definitely seemed to have closed the gap however the previous quarter was a bad one for Microsoft.

Based off the recent hw numbers and I think the releases of two big first party games, MS should definitely massively (2/3%) close the gap this q. Bring on the Jan/Feb investor documents.

I would ask what metric that you are also referring to. In terms of total gaming revenue, Sony is significantly bigger than MS and Nintendo.

Referring to gaming revenue for MS, PlayStation revenue for Sony and Total revenue for Nintendo.
 
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LOL, I don't think you can make that statement but they definitely seemed to have closed the gap however the previous quarter was a bad one for Microsoft.

Based off the recent hw numbers and I think the releases of two big first party games, MS should definitely massively (2/3%) close the gap this q. Bring on the Jan/Feb investor documents.

I would ask what metric that you are also referring to. In terms of total revenue, Sony is significantly bigger than MS and Nintendo.

Wait, Sony generates more revenue than Microsoft ??? Is this your final answer son ?
 
Referring to the gaming division but will make it explicitly stated. I know that xbox is only 8% of Microsoft's total revenue.

Sure but in real life the revenues of both organizations as a whole is measured. We all know that there’s a massive delta between Sony and Microsoft when it comes to rev and profit. Not ever really worth comparing in my opinion.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
How is FH5 being the best selling FH germane to the discussion of what effect Game Pass has on sales as a whole and what was being claimed by Piscatella?

People were here saying how FH5 was going to be this massive event and how explosive it was going to be for the platform in the FH5 threads. I didn't think that would necessarily be the case but I didn't say anything. I wanted to see the results.

So that's great for FH it was their biggest launch yet. It was a game also available on far more platforms at launch than FH4 was, so that surely contributed. And it was also available for two more weeks than Pokemon, which was released in the last third of the month, while FH launched November 4th. And it still lost out to Pokemon's physical only sales.

Again, that to me does not match up with the narrative that was being sold here among some, and it turns out ... I was right. It might have been the biggest launch they had but yet again, it doesn't seem like it's going to move the needle for the platform and based on the fact it came in fourth (with all platforms and physical/digital combined) to physical only sales of a Switch game available for 12 days out of the month ... I'd say it was not a "huge hit" regardless of the "best ever sales." I mean, didn't Metroid Dread also have the best launch of any Metroid game ever? So what? I'm not sure what your point about this is. FH5 had the biggest launch of FH ever. Awesome. It's still not the biggest seller around for a platform that is somewhat defined by Forza. That to me doesn't seem that good if we are talking about sales.

The question was does Game Pass help sales? I think the data still points to "no" based on sales splits between PS/Xbox and the fact that Xbox's second biggest franchise falls where it does on this month's sales charts. And Xbox's game sales in general. Some of you surely think I'm anti-Xbox, which could not be further from the truth. I actually just got an XSX via yesterday's Walmart drop, and sold my PS5 earlier this year. I'm excited to get it. All I'm saying is that results matter.

Let's see some data that shows otherwise before we start saying otherwise.

iwouldnt compare any game vs Pokémon.I think you make some good points, but that comparison doesn’t help you get your points across. I would put money that no game could beat a mainline Pokémon on switch sales In its launch month, or week.
 

reksveks

Member
Sure but in real life the revenues of both organizations as a whole is measured. We all know that there’s a massive delta between Sony and Microsoft when it comes to rev and profit. Not ever really worth comparing in my opinion.
In terms of total revenue across all division, no. In terms of gaming revenue, probably and think its interesting to do so. I think we have taken enough of a detour.

Does anyone know what percent of shipments the US represented in terms of globally last November or over the year?
 

reksveks

Member
Dr Bass Dr Bass , more data


Call of Duty: Vanguard was comfortably the best-selling game of November, continuing the series' trend of dominating sales during the period. However, the game performed significantly below its predecessor -- Call of Duty: Black Ops Cold War. You can read more on why this may have been the case right here.

57% of Call of Duty sales were on PlayStation platforms and 43% on Xbox. 62% of the game's sales came as a download. PC data is unavailable.

Interestingly, GTA is weird one which might be interesting to watch as/if GP grows.

28% of the collection's sales came on Xbox, 13% on Nintendo Switch and 59% on PlayStation consoles (PC data unavailable). One of the games in the trilogy was available to Xbox Game Pass subscribers (GTA: San Andreas) and another to PS Now subscribers (GTA 3). Subscription data is not included in these charts.

Might allude to the GP effect that Matt was talking about.
 
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Dr Bass Dr Bass , more data


Call of Duty: Vanguard was comfortably the best-selling game of November, continuing the series' trend of dominating sales during the period. However, the game performed significantly below its predecessor -- Call of Duty: Black Ops Cold War. You can read more on why this may have been the case right here.

57% of Call of Duty sales were on PlayStation platforms and 43% on Xbox. 62% of the game's sales came as a download. PC data is unavailable.

Interestingly, GTA is weird one which might be interesting to watch as/if GP grows.

28% of the collection's sales came on Xbox, 13% on Nintendo Switch and 59% on PlayStation consoles (PC data unavailable). One of the games in the trilogy was available to Xbox Game Pass subscribers (GTA: San Andreas) and another to PS Now subscribers (GTA 3). Subscription data is not included in these charts.

Might allude to the GP effect that Matt was talking about.
I don't find the GTA numbers too weird. The arguably best game of the three was day 1 on Gamepass after all.
 

Stuart360

Member
Are people really trying to imply FH5 coming in at no.4 as a negative?. I mean even if FH5 was NOT on Gamepass, it wouldnt of beat COD and Battlefield, and probably wouldnt of beat Pokemon due to it being a huge franchise on Switch.
The fact it hit no.4 while also being on Gamepass day one is, well impressive any way you put it.
 
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reksveks

Member
Only just had it reminded that CoD typically comes in as the top selling game of the whole year despite being released in November.

This year it came in at number 2 behind the last CoD.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Are people really trying to imply FH5 coming in at no.4 as a negative?. I mean even if FH5 was NOT on Gamepass, it wouldnt of beat COD asnd Battlefield, and probably wouldnt of beat Pokemon due to it being a huge franchise on Switch.
The fact it hit no.4 while also being on Gamepass day one is, well impressive any way you put it.

FH5 is the perfect proof of concept for MS's entire strategy. Quality content will still sell alongside a subscription.
 
My main point was that it works both ways though - service like GP encourages game-design decisions that support all this, so the more successful subscriptions become, the more games made for it will evolve to focus on said aspects (retention loops, repeat monetization etc.)
It's early days, and jury's still out on long-term success of the service itself though.

I don't quite know if that's right TBH; subscription services are mainly just a delivery mechanism for the content, and the industry has had shifts in delivery mechanisms before. Granted, we DID see shifts in game design when moving from cartridges to discs, or from arcades to home consoles. However, the differences between a subscription service providing digital content, and a storefront serving digital content, are much smaller by comparison, wherein the only real difference is the style of payment. One is a recurring charge, the other is a one-and-done.

That difference doesn't seem large enough to facilitate a massive shift in game design models, because if you look at services like Netflix or Disney+, it's not like we're seeing suddenly new types of TV shows or movies due to their existence. The structure of films and television shows remains pretty much the same as in traditional delivery formats insofar as story structure, pacing, writing styles etc. The only thing that's changed, in some cases, is the delivery method, and I mean the one aside from physical or digital (tho if you think about it, paying for cable television was no different than what we do now for subscription services): Netflix in particular likes to dump all their episodes at once, something that you'd never get with the cable model.

But aside from that, the content itself is largely the same. So if we're going by other media examples, then there's nothing to suggest that GamePass itself is going to influence a radical change in game design for games within the service. However, I think cloud technologies, which are a part of services like GamePass, WILL have influences on the type of game design to come from certain titles going forward, and services wherein those cloud technologies are leveraged, like GamePass, provide a delivery mechanism to sustain those new types of design.

So I may basically be arguing semantics here, because if we're operating on the understand that xcloud is a part of GamePass then saying GamePass and (and likely will) lead to changes in game design approach then that isn't technically wrong, but I think it helps to isolate and specify the cloud aspect here because that's what's really going to be the influencing factor, not the subscription side of the service itself.

And as well, while I think you're basically suggesting this anyway, I just want to openly put out there the fact that yes, things like xcloud factor into new and different types of game design built around things like the retention loop, monetization models etc. However, it won't wholly replace games built outside of that paradigm, and I think it's also realistic to consider that these same technologies and the delivery mechanisms supporting them will also build towards new types of game design models that are focused on pushing the creativity envelope, not just the monetization one.

Are people really trying to imply FH5 coming in at no.4 as a negative?. I mean even if FH5 was NOT on Gamepass, it wouldnt of beat COD and Battlefield, and probably wouldnt of beat Pokemon due to it being a huge franchise on Switch.
The fact it hit no.4 while also being on Gamepass day one is, well impressive any way you put it.

Yeah, plus it's friggin' COD, BF and Pokemon. NO other game is going to outsell those in their debut month, except arguably Halo, and that only released this month. Some people don't consider scale to things; Forza Horizon might be among the most popular traditional racing franchise (alongside Gran Turismo), but it's still seen as a racing game, and racing games not Mario Kart, haven't commanded the top of charts in NA (during months with heavy-hitters in other genres) in a long time.

Like you said, the fact it placed 4th even while in GamePass, and I would add, the fact that it's "essentially" a racing game (I'm putting it this way to frame its scale of perception by others in relation to specific other types of games, particularly FPS and juggernaut IP like Pokemon) managing to place that high in a really competitive month says a lot about Forza's brand power and is a testament to the quality of the game itself.

Good for SMT 5! Fantastic game. I’m not a fan of rpgs normally but I dig this game a lot

Yeah I really want to play SMT5 sometime soon. Hoping the rumored PC port is legit; if it's not then I'll pick the game up and play it in some emulator on PC. Honestly don't have interest in acquiring a Switch or OLED model but I'd consider a Switch 2 if spec'd right.

That said I don't think I can wait until 2023 or so for a true Switch successor just to play this game so either the PC port comes next year or I'll buy it and find a way to run it in a Switch emulator.
 
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Fafalada

Fafracer forever
I don't quite know if that's right TBH; subscription services are mainly just a delivery mechanism for the content
This I would disagree with - delivery mechanism change was going to digital, and later streaming - sub-models change monetization, not really delivery. Which is where my argument on influence on game-systems stems from. Fundamentally there's only a small delta to existing GaaS content, the primary KPIs are engagement and retention, thus primary design goals will be similar to that. And GaaS has demonstrably shifted design goals on content built for the model - not all the difference are glaring, and it's debatable whether it's overall for the better or worse, but impact is absolutely there.

That difference doesn't seem large enough to facilitate a massive shift in game design models, because if you look at services like Netflix or Disney+, it's not like we're seeing suddenly new types of TV shows or movies due to their existence. The structure of films and television shows remains pretty much the same as in traditional delivery formats insofar as story structure, pacing, writing styles etc.
The shift may be 'somewhat' more subtle here but it's definitely happened, there's been a fair bit of conversation of death of episodic content due to Netflix model (overblown, but still), and how 'made for Netflix' shows lead to degradation of content to facilitate continuous engagement (arcless episodes, binging storylines etc.).
Again it's debatable if this is really all for the worse (we also don't get episode timings built around commercial breaks anymore, and hard-cap for much shorter title/intros I very much appreciate) but content is changing/evolving with new mediums for sure.
It's still early days though - everyone's figuring out how to best optimize for the 'algorithm', and big players are still in 'acquisition' mode with loss-leading investments etc.

But aside from that, the content itself is largely the same.
GP hasn't really justified existence of content built for it yet - and we are in acquisition/growth stage, not even operational profitability yet. Once service is actually self-sustaining and content performance (engagement and retention) becomes a factor for what gets built and added to it, things will shift.
And while Cloud will have its influence too - challenges there are even bigger before it can, but I won't pollute the thread with rants about that.

However, it won't wholly replace games built outside of that paradigm, and I think it's also realistic to consider that these same technologies and the delivery mechanisms supporting them will also build towards new types of game design models that are focused on pushing the creativity envelope, not just the monetization one.
Yea I completely agree on that - market is too large and too diverse (and creative) to get unified under any single umbrella.
I think what people are mostly fearful of is the mainstream $ going somewhere else than they go today, and that's likely going to happen though. But chances are good, that the total number of $ investment will grow as well, so existing console gaming won't vanish outright either.
 
This I would disagree with - delivery mechanism change was going to digital, and later streaming - sub-models change monetization, not really delivery. Which is where my argument on influence on game-systems stems from. Fundamentally there's only a small delta to existing GaaS content, the primary KPIs are engagement and retention, thus primary design goals will be similar to that. And GaaS has demonstrably shifted design goals on content built for the model - not all the difference are glaring, and it's debatable whether it's overall for the better or worse, but impact is absolutely there.

My thing about this is, digital and streaming are still effectively the same thing: digital content. You can't stream content unless it's being digitally delivered, and digital delivery is a requirement for streaming. Which would make streaming dependent on digital, therefore wouldn't it be better to consider streaming the sub-model here?

We've already seen focus on GaaS well outside of subscription/streaming models, as well, so I don't know well that idea holds up. Games like Destiny, Fortnite, PUBG, Apex Legends, Overwatch etc. would all fall under some description of GaaS, would they not? And all of those came before the advent of subscription services like GamePass. I think we can agree that services like GP work to the benefit of GaaS models, but I don't think it's accurate to say that GaaS as a model predicates its existence on subscription services. It can work with and without them.

The shift may be 'somewhat' more subtle here but it's definitely happened, there's been a fair bit of conversation of death of episodic content due to Netflix model (overblown, but still), and how 'made for Netflix' shows lead to degradation of content to facilitate continuous engagement (arcless episodes, binging storylines etc.).
Again it's debatable if this is really all for the worse (we also don't get episode timings built around commercial breaks anymore, and hard-cap for much shorter title/intros I very much appreciate) but content is changing/evolving with new mediums for sure.
It's still early days though - everyone's figuring out how to best optimize for the 'algorithm', and big players are still in 'acquisition' mode with loss-leading investments etc.

IMO the issue with many of Netflix's offerings is their pursuit of quantity over quality, which might be fueled by their (or was at least a long time their) debt-leading model. Their business approach might've facilitated a more extreme means of providing content in order to retain subscriptions and push for very aggressive growth, to show to investors that their money was leading somewhere.

GamePass doesn't have that same type of pressure. Microsoft seem more content with pacing out their growth under manageable terms, and while they still want to show that growth to investors of their own, at least in their case all of the funding is coming from in-house; they don't need to placate banks and such outside of the company structure because they aren't borrowing money from them to fund GP growth. Basically, there's more vertical integration for Microsoft and GamePass on the financials front than there has ever been for Netflix, and that has influenced the way the companies have funding their respective subscription offerings.

Small aside but, about the shorter intros, I think that technically started with Breaking Bad, which was produced for cable television. If I had to guess part of the motivation was to allot more time for the actual episode even while also needing to take into account commercial breaks, so shave a good minute or two off the intro and you're good to go. As a practice it just also happened to fit with the streaming model very well, so Netflix shows began to adopt it I suppose.

Altho it really does depend on the show; MOTU: Revelation and Cowboy Bebop (only using them as examples of this, not vouching for their quality because, well, they aren't terribly good shows) both have intros more in line with a cable television show despite being very recent shows on the service, for example. So there is always going to be a creative impetus to do things in ways trends based on a model may not suggest should be the case, and that will hold true with services like GamePass as well IMHO.

GP hasn't really justified existence of content built for it yet - and we are in acquisition/growth stage, not even operational profitability yet. Once service is actually self-sustaining and content performance (engagement and retention) becomes a factor for what gets built and added to it, things will shift.
And while Cloud will have its influence too - challenges there are even bigger before it can, but I won't pollute the thread with rants about that.

The thing is, Phil Spencer has said recently that GamePass is sustainable and doing for them what it needs to for now. I strongly doubt it's losing them money, and I also doubt it's costing them as much to run it as some like to think it is, given how much of the vertical stack Microsoft controls and owns WRT the hardware and software powering the service.

Meanwhile we are already seeing the results of content "for the service" doing well for it in the form of Forza Horizon 5 and Halo Infinite, it's just that by and large these games still follow a lot of the game design choices prior entries did, and improving on them. I would say Halo is more of the cautionary tale of the two, or would've been, had the team not taken feedback into consideration and made some much-needed changes early on, but I'd also say Halo Infinite is one of the few games we'll see that appears affected by development trends to fit into a subscription streaming, GaaS model, and to be perfectly honest, some of its choices seem more influenced by going GaaS rather than being part of a subscription service, and like I was saying earlier, GaaS is independent of a subscription service model (even if GaaS contains its own sort of subscription, or potentially can, anyway).

It all just leads back to what I've been saying: GP as a service isn't going to have some giant adverse influence on game design models as we know them, because almost anything you can pin t it (GaaS, DLC, MTX, lootboxes etc.) have already existed before GamePass even came about. Now it's arguable that a service like GamePass can act as a catalyst to stimulate more activity in some of those things, and that could potentially be adverse, but we have plenty of questionable publishers who have already been taking advantage of monetization models within the traditional model as we know it, and I'd place the blame moreso on them than a service like GP which is basically offering a delivery mechanism for the content itself.

And that's why I did specify cloud gaming as being something of more a direct influence on game design models going forward, though I don't understand your trepidation there. It's a technology like any other, can be used for good and bad. I think things like the NFT controversy of late might be giving some a bad impression on cloud technologies in gaming, but it's not really fair to damn cloud as a whole because of a few bad uses. In terms of positive influence on game design direction, cloud technologies IMO provide at least (in all honesty, I would say more) room for creative growth than things like faster SSD I/O but, like you said, this is going into a very different topic probably better saved for another discussion.

Yea I completely agree on that - market is too large and too diverse (and creative) to get unified under any single umbrella.
I think what people are mostly fearful of is the mainstream $ going somewhere else than they go today, and that's likely going to happen though. But chances are good, that the total number of $ investment will grow as well, so existing console gaming won't vanish outright either.

Trust me I know how they feel, and I think unfortunate side-effects of shifting delivery models and dev models in the past, like near-full disappearance of mid-tier games in the retail space, are still fresh on a lot of people's minds. I guess in a way it's similar to how 2D gaming fans felt during the 5th-gen when the vast majority of the market went 3D; that's a change brought about due to a shift in technology affecting content creation (that just also happened to mainly occur alongside a shift in delivery medium and a gradual, large drop-off in the delivery mechanism of arcades), but I think the fears are similar.

There are some flaws in MS's handling of physical media for example; the fact you still need to check-in online even when purchasing a single-player offline game from the store to download the game for example, renders the disc basically as a DRM key the way PC games used to do it back in the mid-00s', and I think is somewhat counter to their general sentiment on game preservation. Just letting those games work right off the bat without an online sign-in would be preferred.

All that said, we just have to get used to the fact that things are going to change, and we have to adapt towards them doing so. However, we can also look to the past and see that, in a lot of ways, these shifts were generally for the better. Before cable television took off a lot of shows that'd eventually go there, if they wanted distribution, had to rely on VHS tapes. However, that meant needing to cover costs for physical production of tapes, distribution of tapes, working within the reality that not everyone likely had VHS players, and even for those who did, not all of them probably purchased tapes. Which then created other logistical challenges like making sure you could get those tapes into rental stores, the concept of which was still new in the '80s for example.

That would all have impacts on what type of stories you could tell with just the VHS format, you'd need to keep episode count smaller (way smaller), and probably not focus on certain genres as hard. On the upside, you'd have more budget per episode to work with, leading to higher production values. The anime OVA market in Japan is a very good example of this, as it wasn't until Neon Genesis Evangelion that a lot of the type of stories (and budgets) reserved to OVA releases, finally found a home on cable broadcast channels. That opened up a lot of doors for longer-form shows with, on average, higher budgets than televised anime prior to shows like NGE. It allowed those shows to find a bigger audience and brought in a new form of funding through advertisers that generally trumped the funding OVA shows were able to secure (generally privately) in years prior.

Yeah, there were some drawbacks (television censors stuff, mainly), but overall it was the step the anime market needed to grow further into that decade and the '00s, and without it the industry wouldn't be where it is today (in terms of financial power, cultural relevance and some of the series that have come since. Tho I do personally miss some of the grittier OVA series from the '80s/early '90s, particularly the sci-fi ones). That's what I eventually see happening for gaming as subscription models and digital delivery grow in share over the years but, just like with the anime market, physical will never FULLY go away. It'll always be there as an option in many instances, and it'll have to remain that way even just for true software preservation purposes, never mind the fact there's always going to be a segment of people who want physical media and would be willing to pay a premium for premium physical content.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Only just had it reminded that CoD typically comes in as the top selling game of the whole year despite being released in November.

This year it came in at number 2 behind the last CoD.
I'm not sure what are trying to say here?
2021 Vangard is the TOP seller already.
Last 12 months includes last year CoD November + December + 2021... there is no way a new CoD beat that with November only unless the increase in sales is truly exceptionally big.

Check the previous years... it was always like that... 1st in YEAR ranking... 2nd in Last 12 Months ranking.
 
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sainraja

Member
Of course - adverts add an extra layer of glitz, but ultimately both serve the same purpose.


It does. Eg: adding subscription options to services(say, a F2P game) generates more engagement, more overall spend, along with more user-retention. This is orthogonal to 'type' of users we're talking about - maybe 'core' are boosted more than others, but that's ancillary when we're dealing with userbases that go into millions or tens of millions (or more).
My main point was that it works both ways though - service like GP encourages game-design decisions that support all this, so the more successful subscriptions become, the more games made for it will evolve to focus on said aspects (retention loops, repeat monetization etc.)
It's early days, and jury's still out on long-term success of the service itself though.
^^ Nailed it. Too many people wanting to reach conclusions quickly.

And I have to say.....very refreshing to read a post from someone without any "tilt" or "bias".
 

Goalus

Member
So where is the data?
I see a lot of rankings, but no data to back them up. Until Mat provides some real data, I'll have to assume these are all tales from his behind.
 

Woopah

Member
So where is the data?
I see a lot of rankings, but no data to back them up. Until Mat provides some real data, I'll have to assume these are all tales from his behind.
NPD collects data in order to sell it. If you want to see the data Mat has access to, you'll need to pay NPD's subscription fee which is pretty costly. Mat isn't making the numbers up.
 

Goalus

Member
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Goalus

Member
I'm not really sure what there is to disagree with. We know that Mat works for NPD.
In that thread some users want to "see the data/receipts", so I thought I'd try to apply the same principle to the material in this thread in order to get an impression of how ridiculous it sounds. The result is my earlier post, and I have to conclude that it sounds utterly ridiculous.

I don't disagree with you.
 
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Switch was flat in October and slightly down in November yoy, it needs NPD sales to be flat in December (2 million) if it is to ship 11 million worldwide for the quarter. Probably looking at a slight decline from last years 11.57m Q3.

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