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NPD/Circana US March 2023: PS5 #1 (now ahead of PS4 when aligned), RE4#1, MLB#3 and TLOU #5

Saying console sales don't matter is just what people say when their console isn't selling. And to make it worse, Xbox has now stopped updating Gamepass subscriber numbers too. Basically no good news.
The comment was about shareholders. Console sales obviously matter as it is the main ammo in the console war trash talk. Again Apple doesn't report individual iPhone sales numbers I guess that is hide their failures right? Perhaps they will leave the phone industry.
 
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Mr.Phoenix

Member
Pretty sure shareholders are concerned about profit margins over individual unit sales of a single series of devices. I don't think MS gives unit sales of Surface tablets just like I don't think Apple gives sales numbers of iPhones either. Pretty sure Apple shareholders aren't up in arms about that either. At this point console sales numbers here are just used for forum war fodder.
Do you really believe that?
It also looks very likely that PS5 will have the highest 2nd full fiscal year of any Playstation console ever, it needs 5.3 million to beat PS2's 18.07 million. The only console's to have a higher 2nd full fiscal year are DS and Wii.

qKys3RA.png

* Q4 remaining, forecast to ship 19.00 million
Somewhat crazy to think that the PS5 can ship or exceed as many units as the PS4 or even the PS2 in FY2.
 
Do you believe MS shareholder base their investment on how many Xbox consoles they sell?

I think that Xbox console sales are a metric of importance, amongst many other metrics, and they are disappointing to the extent that they will not disclose them.

Microsoft has been quick to announce sales when they show a positive message relative to their history, which I believe they did during the first year or so of Xbox Series console sales.
 

Mr.Phoenix

Member
Do you believe MS shareholder base their investment on how many Xbox consoles they sell?
Nope. But I know that's a very obtuse way of looking at it.

I believe MS shareholders base their investments on how well MS is doing. When looking at the Xbox division, how many consoles they sell is or should typically be the most important metric of a console's success and market relevance. Being that it's a direct correlation to the size of your user base and in turn how much money the platform makes.

I mean, if MS themselves say that gamepass accounts for less than 20% of their Xbox division revenue, what do you think accounts for the remaining 80%, and then what do you think determines how much money Xbox makes? People buying games, right? Now what do you think determines how many games are bought on their platform? The number of people that own said platform right?

If you really believe that there aren't meetings had over at MS extensively talking about the sales of their hardware, what to d to improve it..etc, then you need to get your head outta the sand.
 
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Nope. But I know that's a very obtuse way of looking at it.

I believe MS shareholders base their investments on how well MS is doing. When looking at the Xbox division, how many consoles they sell is or should typically be the most important metric of a console's success and market relevance. Being that it's a direct correlation to the size of your user base and in turn how much money the platform makes.

I mean, if MS themselves say that gamepass accounts for less than 20% of their Xbox division revenue, what do you think accounts for the remaining 80%, and then what do you think determines how much money Xbox makes? People buying games, right? Now what do you think determines how many games are bought on their platform? The number of people that own said platform right?

If you really believe that there aren't meetings had over at MS extensively talking about the sales of their hardware, what to d to improve it..etc, then you need to get your head outta the sand.
Oh I'm sure MS cares about how the Xbox as a brand is doing as a whole but as you acknowledged its obtuse to focus solely on consoles because it doesn't paint a complete picture of the ecosystem in ways it may from other companies hence my iPhone example.

We are always free to speculate but seeing how Xbox has ALWAYS been outsold by PlayStation and Nintendo and many fans of a certain pursuation have called on Xbox to be dropped for 20 years there are obviously metrics MS is using that forum users are not aware of. Regardless it appears to be good enough or else MS would have dropped the console after getting trounced in the original Xbox days when they were outsold 20M to 150M. It is possible that console sales aren't as important to MS as they are to Sony and Nintendo.

I think that Xbox console sales are a metric of importance, amongst many other metrics, and they are disappointing to the extent that they will not disclose them.

Microsoft has been quick to announce sales when they show a positive message relative to their history, which I believe they did during the first year or so of Xbox Series console sales.
It is natural in PR to talk about positive numbers even when it is not the end all be all for a platform's success.
 
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Mr.Phoenix

Member
Oh I'm sure MS cares about how the Xbox as a brand is doing as a whole but as you acknowledged its obtuse to focus solely on consoles because it doesn't paint a complete picture of the ecosystem in ways it may from other companies hence my iPhone example.

We are always free to speculate but seeing how Xbox has ALWAYS been outsold by PlayStation and Nintendo and many fans of a certain pursuation have called on Xbox to be dropped for 20 years there are obviously metrics MS is using that forum users are not aware of. Regardless it appears to be good enough or else MS would have dropped the console after getting trounced in the original Xbox days when they were outsold 20M to 150M. It is possible that console sales aren't as important to MS as they are to Sony and Nintendo.


It is natural in PR to talk about positive numbers even when it is not the end all be all for a platform's success.
While I agree with what you are saying generally, that boded part I just don't agree with. Because if what you use to determine that console sales are important to sony and Nintendo because they disclose sales numbers, then that just puts MS in worse light because they do so too, but only when its ahead of Sony or the best in that specific month. The funny thing is, if MS were where sony was at sales-wise, they would do a lot more than release quarterly reports on console sales.

MS are still in this console fight simply because they can afford to be in it, and they feel they can win. And no one realistically expects Xbox to be trading blows in sales with PS, but losing three or 4 to one isn't something I believe anyone at MS would want.

All I am saying, is that console sales are a very important metric to measure the success of any gaming platform. And it would be ridiculous to say otherwise. Now if to MS, as long as they are on track to hit 50M ss in any given gen is enough for them, and their own internal projections, that's fine. But to say they aren't important is myopic at best. Eg... forget the first Xbox, they were not expecting to just come in and win, but the 360 showed them they could. If however, the SX consoles somehow ends this gen only having sod like 30M (impossible) and gamepass subs stall at like 20M.... I do not think there will be another Xbox console after that.
 

Three

Member
For Sports games, no.

For AAA games, definitely.

For first party exclusives, it was day one.
Just a small correction. It was never over day one even for first party exclusives, though in the past we had fewer. For MS we had Forza Horizon and Titanfall coming to 360 as well as XB1. For Nintendo we had Zelda releasing far back on both gamecube and Wii. Switch and Wii U also shared a lot of their library.
 
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jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
For Sports games, no.

For AAA games, definitely.

For first party exclusives, it was day one.
Ok, and PS5 had exclusives day one...

There has never been first party exclusives only to start a new gen for any platform holder the last 2-3 gens.
PS4, PS3, XBO, 360...we can just stop there.

When MLB The Show was exclusive its always been cross gen.


Just a small correction. It was never over day one even for first party exclusives, though in the past we had fewer. For MS we had Forza Horizon and Titanfall coming to 360 as well as XB1. For Nintendo we had Zelda releasing far back on both gamecube and Wii. Switch and Wii U also shared a lot of their library.
Exactly.
 
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The comment was about shareholders. Console sales obviously matter as it is the main ammo in the console war trash talk. Again Apple doesn't report individual iPhone sales numbers I guess that is hide their failures right? Perhaps they will leave the phone industry.
iphone doesn't grow anymore, it is a mature market. In any case you think you are helping, not realising that criticisim is how a company improves. If everything is fine, then you should be happy with the direction the Xbox division is going.
 

Poltz

Member
It’s pretty obvious why Sony reports console sales, thats a measure of success for the brand. The more PS5s sold is also better for us gamers as it kills potential crossgen games if the user base is high enough. Look at the first question at the last Sony Financial briefing Q&A from a shareholder.
f5L9NvO.jpg
 
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While I agree with what you are saying generally, that boded part I just don't agree with. Because if what you use to determine that console sales are important to sony and Nintendo because they disclose sales numbers, then that just puts MS in worse light because they do so too, but only when its ahead of Sony or the best in that specific month. The funny thing is, if MS were where sony was at sales-wise, they would do a lot more than release quarterly reports on console sales.

MS are still in this console fight simply because they can afford to be in it, and they feel they can win. And no one realistically expects Xbox to be trading blows in sales with PS, but losing three or 4 to one isn't something I believe anyone at MS would want.

All I am saying, is that console sales are a very important metric to measure the success of any gaming platform. And it would be ridiculous to say otherwise. Now if to MS, as long as they are on track to hit 50M ss in any given gen is enough for them, and their own internal projections, that's fine. But to say they aren't important is myopic at best. Eg... forget the first Xbox, they were not expecting to just come in and win, but the 360 showed them they could. If however, the SX consoles somehow ends this gen only having sod like 30M (impossible) and gamepass subs stall at like 20M.... I do not think there will be another Xbox console after that.
Well Xbox as a platform relies on more than consoles for viability. No one outside of the company knows current Game pass sub numbers or even console sales so using Nintendo and Sony's way of measuring success doesn't necessarily apply to MS. Let's not forget that MS is larger than both of those companies combined so it isn't surprising that they may conduct business and view metrics within their businesses differently. I never said consoles weren't important, only that it was only one factor and it is less of a factor than it is for the Japanese companies.

I disagree that if Xbox doesn't meet some random forum generated number for Xbox console sales that the console will be dropped. No one has been able to explain how their cloud streaming will be sustainable without the Xbox blades in their server farms for one. So then you are saying that MS would drop, Game pass, cloud, 3rd party deals, and console? Then do what? Be beholden to Sony and Nintendo to make money? Who would support them as a third party especially if the narrative is they have no games? It just strikes me as wishful thinking from Xbox detractors.

If the console wasn't dropped when they only sold 20M systems and had no cloud, PC, or Game pass to back stop things dropping it after selling 50M+ with all those components is, what did you say? Myopic? It's obtuse as well.

iphone doesn't grow anymore, it is a mature market. In any case you think you are helping, not realising that criticisim is how a company improves. If everything is fine, then you should be happy with the direction the Xbox division is going.
I don't think much of the commentary coming from people who aren't Xbox customers is really interested is seeing the Xbox division improving. How would dropping the console improve Xbox for instance? The brand can certainly improve and producing more and better games is a good start.

So far the games this year have been pretty good and I'm looking to see how Redfall, Starfield, and Forza turn out to get a better gage. I'd prefer more games at a regular pace over ridiculous notions of them dropping the console, a suggestion some have made since 2001.
 


Why is Satya Nadella announcing this if consoles don’t matter.

Jim Carrey What GIF

Who said consoles 'don't matter' sir? Xbox consoles are used for the server blades in cloud streaming. They are also a good vector for Game pass. They are NOT the only metric of success for the Xbox brand since it is one part of many.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly


Why is Satya Nadella announcing this if consoles don’t matter.


They didn't give numbers though, they just made the state,ent as it is positive news to share with your shareholders.

I think everyone agrees and understands why console sales matter, I think darkmage is just trying to say they are only one part of the picture and internally Microsoft will have their goals and kpis to what they consider a success for the business. If they are slipping on their kpis they will need to look at how they improve them.

I don't think any legit business that has sold the amount that xbox has would have a kpi that expects sales of more than Sonys console, it will to be to grow by a certain amount of points per quarter, which looks like they could be slipping behind xbox one for this first quarter of 2023?
 

X-Wing

Member
Aaron Greenberg is a toxic personality in the Xbox sphere tbh. While Phil at least tries to pretend he is a cool guy, Greenberg is straight out provocative. His twitter avatar with Crash Bandicoot on the back when the Activision acquisition was announced was evidence of exactly that.
 

Kokoloko85

Member
Aaron Greenberg is a toxic personality in the Xbox sphere tbh. While Phil at least tries to pretend he is a cool guy, Greenberg is straight out provocative. His twitter avatar with Crash Bandicoot on the back when the Activision acquisition was announced was evidence of exactly that.

The guy is a fat douche.
I remember him saying Series X/S was selling better then 360 at the same time frame. But ignored to say Xbox One also sold better than 360 at the start and look how that ended. Im guessing they are probably the same now Series X/S and Xbox One. And that includes the much cheaper Series S sales.

Was fake excitement news, anything to get media points
 
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gokurho

Member


Why is Satya Nadella announcing this if consoles don’t matter.

Do Nadella believe MS shareholder base their investment on how many Xbox consoles they sell?
What would be the benefit to us to get that information?
I'm don't think that's how it works.
 

Mr.Phoenix

Member
Well Xbox as a platform relies on more than consoles for viability. No one outside of the company knows current Game pass sub numbers or even console sales so using Nintendo and Sony's way of measuring success doesn't necessarily apply to MS. Let's not forget that MS is larger than both of those companies combined so it isn't surprising that they may conduct business and view metrics within their businesses differently. I never said consoles weren't important, only that it was only one factor and it is less of a factor than it is for the Japanese companies.

I disagree that if Xbox doesn't meet some random forum generated number for Xbox console sales that the console will be dropped. No one has been able to explain how their cloud streaming will be sustainable without the Xbox blades in their server farms for one. So then you are saying that MS would drop, Game pass, cloud, 3rd party deals, and console? Then do what? Be beholden to Sony and Nintendo to make money? Who would support them as a third party especially if the narrative is they have no games? It just strikes me as wishful thinking from Xbox detractors.

If the console wasn't dropped when they only sold 20M systems and had no cloud, PC, or Game pass to back stop things dropping it after selling 50M+ with all those components is, what did you say? Myopic? It's obtuse as well.
You know, the issue with you is that you keep saying the things that we know and can see don't matter, while in the same breath saying the things e actually don't know and no one has any idea of does.

Ah well, guess we will see.
 
You know, the issue with you is that you keep saying the things that we know and can see don't matter, while in the same breath saying the things e actually don't know and no one has any idea of does.

Ah well, guess we will see.
To be honest, I would never have bothered to reply to Darkmage in this thread myself had i realized at the time who i was replying to. i didn't recognize him because he changed his avatar.

Darkmage has his position and i wouldn't bother to try to change it.
 

X-Wing

Member
Well Xbox as a platform relies on more than consoles for viability. No one outside of the company knows current Game pass sub numbers or even console sales so using Nintendo and Sony's way of measuring success doesn't necessarily apply to MS. Let's not forget that MS is larger than both of those companies combined so it isn't surprising that they may conduct business and view metrics within their businesses differently. I never said consoles weren't important, only that it was only one factor and it is less of a factor than it is for the Japanese companies.
Alright, ok. I can agree with that.

I disagree that if Xbox doesn't meet some random forum generated number for Xbox console sales that the console will be dropped. No one has been able to explain how their cloud streaming will be sustainable without the Xbox blades in their server farms for one. So then you are saying that MS would drop, Game pass, cloud, 3rd party deals, and console? Then do what? Be beholden to Sony and Nintendo to make money? Who would support them as a third party especially if the narrative is they have no games? It just strikes me as wishful thinking from Xbox detractors.
Euh... See, from all the things that could stop Microsoft from dropping Xbox this is the smallest issue. They could still develop and manufacture SOC exclusively for the cloud without selling it to consumers or they could just have dedicated gaming servers like NVIDIA does (most of their games have PC versions anyway). The platform as a service strategy that Microsoft is implementing doesn't require them to sell consoles, but consoles are still the strongest space for the Xbox brand. Consoles are also where all their Live Gold subscribers are, several millions that they really would like to migrate to Game Pass, hence why they tried to increase the price of Gold a few years ago with major backlash that made them back up and why the offerings in Live Gold have been... well... poor to say the least. Do I think they will drop the consoles in the course of this generation? Absolutely not, but I do think that the future of Xbox is to commercialize it as a service and the hardware will stop making sense at that point.
 
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Mr.Phoenix

Member
To be honest, I would never have bothered to reply to Darkmage in this thread myself had i realized at the time who i was replying to. i didn't recognize him because he changed his avatar.

Darkmage has his position and i wouldn't bother to try to change it.
Now I know, I am new here :messenger_downcast_sweat:
 
To be honest, I would never have bothered to reply to Darkmage in this thread myself had i realized at the time who i was replying to. i didn't recognize him because he changed his avatar.

Darkmage has his position and i wouldn't bother to try to change it.

Yeah there's no discussion to have with him. You just go round and round in circles. You'll have more actual discussion with twitter fanboys than with him.
 
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Unknown?

Member
While I agree with what you are saying generally, that boded part I just don't agree with. Because if what you use to determine that console sales are important to sony and Nintendo because they disclose sales numbers, then that just puts MS in worse light because they do so too, but only when its ahead of Sony or the best in that specific month. The funny thing is, if MS were where sony was at sales-wise, they would do a lot more than release quarterly reports on console sales.

MS are still in this console fight simply because they can afford to be in it, and they feel they can win. And no one realistically expects Xbox to be trading blows in sales with PS, but losing three or 4 to one isn't something I believe anyone at MS would want.

All I am saying, is that console sales are a very important metric to measure the success of any gaming platform. And it would be ridiculous to say otherwise. Now if to MS, as long as they are on track to hit 50M ss in any given gen is enough for them, and their own internal projections, that's fine. But to say they aren't important is myopic at best. Eg... forget the first Xbox, they were not expecting to just come in and win, but the 360 showed them they could. If however, the SX consoles somehow ends this gen only having sod like 30M (impossible) and gamepass subs stall at like 20M.... I do not think there will be another Xbox console after that.
Actually before launch they DID expect to come in and win simply due to the console being branded Microsoft.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Do Nadella believe MS shareholder base their investment on how many Xbox consoles they sell?
What would be the benefit to us to get that information?
I'm don't think that's how it works.

Then why did Nadella share any information about Xbox sales at all? Clearly he thought Xbox outselling PlayStation for three quarters was important info to convey.
 
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If it was only information about console sales that MS hides... but is it hiding everything, has it been since January 2022? without saying the subs of the GP, without talking about the sale of games, without saying anything, only three or four percentages without knowing on what basis, it is ridiculous, and obviously that they care about the sale of consoles (saying that it is not pure damage control), if Xbox won any NPD it would take 5 seconds for Greenberg and all his PRs to come out on twitter to shout it.
 

Alan Wake

Member
It was never a competition.

You can't sell a lot of consoles after a bad period.

Xbox needs this Gen to sort Xbox one issues.

Their estimated lifetime would be around 80m-90m.
While PS is Targeting 130+m.

Sure you can. Sony came back and saved the PS3, Nintendo had a great comeback after the disaster that was Wii U. Microsoft has fixed a lot of things after all the mistakes that were made during the Xbox One era, but they still lack a steady flow of exclusive games. Something both Sony and Nintendo have always been great at. I think it'sjust as simple as that. 2022 was almost empty, and I speak as a gamer with Xbox as my primary platform. Without Game Pass I probably wouldn't have touched my Series X last year.
 
Actually before launch they DID expect to come in and win simply due to the console being branded Microsoft.
They thought they'd do what Sony did, but to a bigger extent, just because they're Microsoft.

But, that pales in comparison to them publicly saying they thought the Xbox One would reach 1 billion units sold. I think they believed Xbox would become to both TV and gaming what Windows was to PCs.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
So absurd to think that Microsoft does not need to rely only on console sales because they have other avenues. It's like PlayStation does not have those other avenues.
  • Xbox releases games on PC. So does PlayStation.
  • Xbox has Game Pass with 25 million subscribers. PlayStation has PS Plus with 48 million subscribers
  • Game Pass generates less than $2.9 billion in revenue. PS Plus generates more than $3.2 billion in revenue.
  • Xbox has 56 million MAUs. PlayStation has 112 million MAUs.
Despite all the facts and similarities, "Console sales aren't as important to Microsoft as they are to Sony."
 
If it was only information about console sales that MS hides... but is it hiding everything, has it been since January 2022? without saying the subs of the GP, without talking about the sale of games, without saying anything, only three or four percentages without knowing on what basis, it is ridiculous, and obviously that they care about the sale of consoles (saying that it is not pure damage control), if Xbox won any NPD it would take 5 seconds for Greenberg and all his PRs to come out on twitter to shout it.

They have no positive metrics left. What can they even say? Console sales are down in only year 3. Gamepass subs are already hitting a ceiling and slowing down. That's why they are desperate to get cod. So they can boast about that every year as though they created the ip. They are delaying the inevitable. Which is to stop making xbox hardware and go 3rd party. It has to happen because they will never turn things around. Just look at the sales right now.
 
Xbox One sold around 51m...

They are tracking below that right now...

Don't mean to sound like a dick but I don't think they will go below 50 million. That would be pretty terrible for them especially with having a much cheaper console IMO.

How do you hit below 50 million with Don Mattrick long gone?
 
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feynoob

Banned
They have no positive metrics left. What can they even say? Console sales are down in only year 3. Gamepass subs are already hitting a ceiling and slowing down. That's why they are desperate to get cod. So they can boast about that every year as though they created the ip. They are delaying the inevitable. Which is to stop making xbox hardware and go 3rd party. It has to happen because they will never turn things around. Just look at the sales right now.
Why all the gloom suddenly?
Their studios havent yet shipped a game yet.
Wait until they do, and when the situation doesnt change, we can go back again to this gloom dystopia.
 
Why all the gloom suddenly?
Their studios havent yet shipped a game yet.
Wait until they do, and when the situation doesnt change, we can go back again to this gloom dystopia.

I think we can agree that if this doesn't fix itself soon it will be really difficult for them to catch up.
 

feynoob

Banned
I think we can agree that if this doesn't fix itself soon it will be really difficult for them to catch up.
Xbox isnt going to catch PS. That ship sailed during last gen. PS at this moment has the arsenal to be successful for 3 gens and the brand name is strong as ever.

Xbox at this gen needs to pick itself, and do what they did during OG Xbox and X360. Find their identity and do what they are good at.
 
Xbox isnt going to catch PS. That ship sailed during last gen. PS at this moment has the arsenal to be successful for 3 gens and the brand name is strong as ever.

Xbox at this gen needs to pick itself, and do what they did during OG Xbox and X360. Find their identity and do what they are good at.

I was talking about catching up to the X1.
 

Poltz

Member
Xbox isnt going to catch PS. That ship sailed during last gen. PS at this moment has the arsenal to be successful for 3 gens and the brand name is strong as ever.

Xbox at this gen needs to pick itself, and do what they did during OG Xbox and X360. Find their identity and do what they are good at.
This what not said before launch. Series S was going to be a massive seller.
 
That's why they are desperate to get cod.
I don’t think the primary reason is Xbox. Sure, that's a huge benefit to get marketing rights for CoD, but I believe the Activision deal is more about how Microsoft (not just Xbox) wishes to invest their money.

I think they see the deal as a long term investment that is more financially beneficial to them than just putting that capital in other stocks, etc. This remains true even if Xbox were to go away altogether. Same with Minecrafy.
 

feynoob

Banned
This what not said before launch. Series S was going to be a massive seller.
Massive seller on their ground, not global.
For global, you need brand recognition and games that these people want.

I was talking about catching up to the X1.
It will. It already surpassed the japan record for Xbox one. For global, it will be matter of time.

Remember that we are still on year 3, and there are still time left until the end of the gen.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Massive seller on their ground, not global.
For global, you need brand recognition and games that these people want.


It will. It already surpassed the japan record for Xbox one. For global, it will be matter of time.

Remember that we are still on year 3, and there are still time left until the end of the gen.
And Xbox has already fallen behind Xbox One in territories like US and the UK -- which constitutes like 75% of Xbox market.

Just releasing upcoming games will not do them any good. Those games will need to be significantly better than PlayStation's lineup if Xbox wants to increase its market share. Most gamers will not buy 2 consoles that share 95% of games to play a few Xbox exclusives.
 

feynoob

Banned
And Xbox has already fallen behind Xbox One in territories like US and the UK -- which constitutes like 75% of Xbox market.

Just releasing upcoming games will not do them any good. Those games will need to be significantly better than PlayStation's lineup if Xbox wants to increase its market share. Most gamers will not buy 2 consoles that share 95% of games to play a few Xbox exclusives.
The problem is that these 3 years arent measurement for the entire gen.

There was severe shortage in the early release of all console. That is part why the console is behind the Xbox one. Then there is delay in first party games, which will pick up this year. These affects sales too.

Short answer, its best to judge whole season, instead of jumping conclusion right now.

No one expected Xbox/MS to buy Zenimax, and now Activision at the start of this gen. Both news come out of field.
 
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