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_Justinian_
Gold Member
^I actually thought about posting that but wasn't sure if it would be allowed. Still adjusting to the new Neogaf. lol
Edit: I really dislike the use of the word "toxic" and what it implies in today's society.
Edit: I really dislike the use of the word "toxic" and what it implies in today's society.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
1. You think things that happened in the 1960s just disappeared and never happens today? No remnants still remain?
2. Yes I'm 1000% behind white males being hired in areas where they are currently underrepresented. I LOVE what the New England Pats are doing with their white wide receivers. Clearly those white dudes are better than what most coaches in the NFL think they are. They are CLEARLY being looked over by most teams in the league because they are white. They go to New England and ball out with Tom Brady. It's smart to hire people for your company that are overlooked by the competition. It makes you and your company better.
You make assertions about how contemporary society runs, you provide the evidence to back them up.
Employers have the freedom to hire whomever they want. Ultimately, that's a good thing. As a customer, though, I will always go with the most competitive business I can afford. Always. Always the best doctor, not the doctor who got opted in because of his gender or ethnicity.
Companies who take irrational decisions by passing on the most valuable human capital at their disposal will pay a price. Enough of these decisions in a row or at a critical level, and the price will be obsolescence.
EventHorizon
Member
Oh boy. How to prove the article you are trying to criticize is correct in one simple step. Btw, I believe the feminist side overplays their hand on sexism in gaming too. It's frustrating when this topic comes up, and I have to look at both sides and shake my head.
Reality #1: There really are vocal toxic and immature, primarily male parts of the gaming culture. And no, people should not have to "just live with it". It should be called out and discouraged.
Reality #2: For some domains, men and women really do have different tastes. There are types of gaming that naturally carter more to men than women on average. It is not sexism if developers of games in those areas target more to male tastes which is their audience. The fact that a game can be skewed to a male audience proves that a male audience exists with different tastes from women that can be targeted.
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Bradamante3D
Member
Well, that's a pretty shitty culture, then.
But yes, worthless article. Yes, there are mean people on the internet. Thanks for informing us, Polygon. And btw, by discussing and linking their article you are playing their game. Doesn't matter if you liked it, you discussed it, drove interaction, hence clicks, hence income.
I think you're pigeon holing what the other side actually is when it comes to a discussion of toxicity in gaming culture. I really believe the other side are the people who think that the people that are always screaming racism, sexism, phobias, etc., are in fact the most toxic aspect of the gaming community, both because of their rhetoric (often consisting of false charges) and especially because of the divide it has caused. Yes, there are some outlanders who they properly despise and that are absolute scumbags and looking to pick on people because of race, sex, etc. But I have played a lot of games, and they do not constitute the majority of people I interact with, and they usually have very squeaky and immature voices. So from my vantage point, someone like Colin M should have been invited long before someone who's only job is telling us how sexist we all are, if we are actually talking about toxicity in gaming culture and not just accusing white men of being toxic people.
MomsNewBoyfriend
Neo Member
Has nothing to do with "toxic masculinity"- if you feel the need to resort to slurs in vidya then you are an adult infant. society's ills stem from the increasing infantilization of its populous NOT muh patriarchy
Lionel Richie
Member
I can say with 100% certainty that if more people were like the fine folks in that group then we'd still be trapped in caves trying to figure out if rocks are eatable and if any single one of the ever gets any kind of decision making power then we might go extinct.
INC
Member
Just check out the BF1 FB community, utter pathetic how toxic people are there
Their leagues are renowned for the amount of toxic shit, to the point where one of the league organisers had to get the police involved.......yep over a game, these were fully grown adults too, mind boggling bullshit
Why started our own league, that kicks any form of toxic behaviour, just no need for it.
Their leagues are renowned for the amount of toxic shit, to the point where one of the league organisers had to get the police involved.......yep over a game, these were fully grown adults too, mind boggling bullshit
Why started our own league, that kicks any form of toxic behaviour, just no need for it.
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
Who Are Adult Gamers? - A Study
I confess I haven't digested all of this yet, but it looks to offer a detailed study from more neutral starting point. This seemed like a good thread to mention it in.
I confess I haven't digested all of this yet, but it looks to offer a detailed study from more neutral starting point. This seemed like a good thread to mention it in.
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Hudo
Member
Have Polygon provided a rationale as to why they chose not to publish every answer from every expert/interviewee to every question? I imagine that everyone was asked the same set of questions.
EDIT: It would also have been nice to have more than one actual developers among the chosen experts/interviewees. Additionally, I would've liked for them to have also included some people from Japan and more countries in general.
EDIT: It would also have been nice to have more than one actual developers among the chosen experts/interviewees. Additionally, I would've liked for them to have also included some people from Japan and more countries in general.
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LegendOfKage
Member
When I read this part of your post, it reminded me of a section in a video I watched a while back. I can only hope you're not harming your level of happiness for the frustration of wanting to change things that are completely outside of your control. The video is a "how to" instructional guide on how to achieve misery.
Hopefully you get more enjoyment out of talking with people who disagree than you do frustration and sadness. Personally, I enjoy challenging other people's opinions, and having my own opinions challenged as well. I'd much rather have a conversation with people I disagree with, than talk about how much I agree with everyone else. Maybe you're the same way.
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borzas2010
Member
I really believe Zoe Quinn was banged by mans for the review... They just wanted hiding the truth.
mod edit: When framing this sort of interaction can we elevate the descriptors a bit please? A little bit of tact can go a long way to making the same point
mod edit: When framing this sort of interaction can we elevate the descriptors a bit please? A little bit of tact can go a long way to making the same point
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Cranberrys
Member
Oh, please.
First of all, she bangs whoever she wants and it's not anyone else's business and certainly not her former stupid ass boyfriend.
And If she wanted exposure she will have banged someone with actual power in the industry, certainly not a Kotaku journalist. It makes no sense to bang a game journalist for exposure.
Nobody should insult somebody else for no reason. This would be the right way. You make it the other way around.
It is like you would say (slightly exaggerated) "nobody has to be killed, just avoid the killer". The argument just makes no sense.
Also, there are kids playing games, that use headsets. Just because there are reckless assholes in so many games, your kids should not play a game? It is not only voice-chat. Some games just place porn-pictures inside of mario odyssey. This is just something that can't be tolerated.
Insulting someone has nothing to do with freedom. Else the other person who you insulted would have the freedom to slap you without consequence.
Just insulting everyone != freedom of speech.
That would be a perversion of freedom.
It is like always, just try to respect others. Else others won't respect you.
If you show those people that their behavior has no consequences, they will never learn.
Else every game that has voice-chat in it must be rated 18+.
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Rodolfo Brito
Member
As you can see, new gaf is way more productive without SWJ modders.
InterMusketeer
Member
But it does. Comedians make insulting jokes all the time. Simply expressing my opinion about a subject could be insulting to someone else: "Farmers abuse their cattle" could be insulting to farmers.
You do have the freedom to insult others. Expressing your opinion comes with the inherent risk of insulting someone.
No, there is no freedom of violence, fortunately.
I don't know about just respecting people willy-nilly, but I do agree with the sentiment that one should aim to be kind to everyone.
The consequences are that they'll be muted and reported, and if enough people do this, they'll get banned. There's a dicussion to be had over whether developers and platformholders are doing enough with these reports, and whether there's enough feedback to players to demonstrate what happened with their reports, but that's not the subject of this article.
Online play is usually unrated because it's impossible to predict what one might encounter online, and there's hardly a way to filter it.
ruvikx
Banned
This is the epitome of a wrong, i.e. on the contrary sleeping with a journalist makes perfect sense for 'exposure'. I mean this factoid has been common knowledge for centuries & is a pop-culture trope in & of itself (i.e. House of Cards & other such films/series which deal with journalistic corruption intermingled with sex in return for favors of various kinds etc.).
My own problem with Zoe Quinn is the fact she isn't (or wasn't) even a real dev. Her 'game' is not even a game & she was completely undeserving of any attention whatsoever. Add the fact she's nigh comical in her stereotypical SJW'ism & voilà, a pointless person given far too much exposure. She's essentially a faux dev & the sort of person who runs around saying/posting offensive shit, insulting entire groups (men, white people etc.) & labeling many all sorts of bad names... then when called out on her bullshit screams "harassment!" as a defense mechanism. It's tedious.
She's highly offensive & also appears like a lunatic (her attack on Nintendo over Paper Mario a couple of years ago would have been funny if it wasn't so pathetic: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...rio-color-splash-link-to-online-hate-campaign)
Thiagosc777
Member
Have you never avoided a bad part of town that is known for high criminality? That's prevention, like using condoms for avoiding STDs. Common sense that any normal person practices. We should always be careful not to put ourselves in dangerous situations.
I wonder, how do you live in the world?
Their parents should control what their kids have access to.
That's why many platforms offer you the ability of reporting users who break TOS.
Take a deep breath. What are you even talking about?
The OP is referring to the problem of insults online, for which there are many solutions (reporting users, blocking, private parties, etc). Problem solved.
Now you have changed the subject to talk about freedom? If that's what you want to talk about, then: 1- it is not gaming related; 2- it is offtopic;
Airola
Member
Well that's only your opinion. She developed electronic entertainment that she made to express herself. You might not be interested in what she did and it might not be art and it might not be a game in the traditional sense or even in the untraditional sense, but she tried something that was different. Some people were interested and excited about it. She deserved to be called a developer and deserved attention to her project way more than she deserved to be humiliated by her ex and the internet mob. And no matter what she did afterwards doesn't change the fact that she didn't initially deserve all the shit she got in the first place.
And just for the record, I think even people who make games like Snake: Road to Apple deserve to be called a dev and at least some attention, or at the very least more than they deserve any public humiliation. They are at least doing more than 99,9% of the people who mock them online.
Cranberrys
Member
I worked for 17 years (1999 - 2016) in a marketing department of a major french retailer (Micromania owned since 2008 by Gamespot) and I can tell you that a positive review of any game by any game journalist doesn't necessarily translate into great sales. We see that recently with some Bethesda games. So, if Zoe Quinn did trade sex for favor over an indie game nobody knew about so maybe she won Something like 30 sales (and I'm large). It's not Worth it and I'm pretty sure she knew that because it's not a secret insider information. Chances are she slept with the guy because she liked the guy. Big deal.
To push a game, marketing is everything and it's Something you work with the publisher and it goes Something like this "I've got this game, we need to push it, let's work together to achieve that". In that equation, game journalists have Nothing to say because they are not and in any way part of that deal. Game journalists are used to talk about the game, to put the game in the air, to create background noise that's it. We Don't rely on them to sell the game, that's our job.
Game journalism and political journalism is not the same thing. Video games are just that, they are not important as in life threatening, politics involves the life of people. If a chemical company poisons a small town over political corruption it's a life threatening situation. Even if you buy a game based on a review and you end up Don't liking that game, what's the worse that could happen to you ? Is your life in danger ?
You will resell your game at a store or in an online marketplace, you loose some money sure but it's not life threatening for you since you have the income to buy 70€ games in the first place and even if it's a digital game and you can't resell it, odds are you won't make the same mistake twice. So maybe a journalist can fool a person once but that's it. You can't rely on that to sell games, it's way too chaotic. You need people who buy games on a regular basis.
Plus many experienced gamers already know their tastes in games and Don't buy solely on a review but because they are drawn to a specific game for various reasons not linked to a journalists opinion. So that means that Zoe Quinn by banging a journalist is after a very specific demographic : noob gamers who blindly trust journalists to the point they open their wallet with no question asked and play obscure indie games that cost 10 box or something. It's a very small demographic I can tell you that.
Now I Don't know the specifics about Zoe Quinn sex life because I don't care, but chances are, when you work in any industry and go to various trade shows, you are often on the road, you meet people, you're in a sort of vacuum where you live with men and women who do the exact same thing as you and sometimes after a work day, in an hotel bar, you flirt a little and bam you end up in bed. That's just life, there's Nothing to it.
And anyway, the way some people attacked her when it's Something done between two consenting adults, whatever their reasons are I don't care, is an absolute no go for me.
I need to stop you here since the issue was never that Zoe was sleeping with this guy. The problem was that they have broken pretty standard ethical rules.
no Journalists who takes this very serious would write an article positive or negative about a person he/she knows personally. And IF which is a big IF. IF he/she still would do it they would at least note in in the article. No one cared if Zoe and journalists banged which I think ws not even the case hey just lived together. But the fact that he did not establish their relationship.
And you know whats really funny? The people who back then thought its not a bi deal now establish their relationship every time now. And yes this is also because of Gamergater. Giantbomb does this also a lot in their podcasts and it all did happen because of this.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
This is a tricky point to argue objectively. Whilst people like Zoe Quinn and Brianna Wu are/were, no question, "developers", they were very much on the fringe of the industry. This I think matters a great deal, particularly in light of the way their experiences and outlook were conveyed to be emblematic of the industry as a whole.
There was a lot of anger over the mainstream industry's perceived indifference to what happened, which was entirely ridiculous given that it was really analogous to expecting Hollywood to react furiously to the travails experienced by an indie or student film project. Artistically, yes they share the same field, but commercially and in a business sense... completely different situations.
When Amy Hennig got shouted down for having the temerity to try and encourage more young women into the industry, by relating her own positive experience and how yes, you can be successful in the business... I basically checked out of the whole thing.
Here was a woman who had a track record worthy of the highest regard by anyone in the industry, being told to her input didn't matter! Sheer insanity. It indicated to me that outrage, not the furtherance of women in the industry, was the currency really in play.
Cranberrys
Member
Well, since she got harassed over her sex life, so it is part of the issue.
Now, I'm not questioning people who want a better transparency in game journalism, it's a perfectly legitimate position.
But I have a problem with harassment since it depicts me, as a white male member of the gaming Community, as a potentially toxic person according to Polygon. And, yeah, I have a serious problem with that because it's not who I am and in the same time I won't deny an entire Community in which there is many great people because it's not who I am either.
The problem is right now, and I'm telling this because marketing and therefor image perception is my daily job, it's very hard to talk to people like Polygon to change this perception of my community because some people who labeled themselves as members of this Community violently harassed others human beings.
I deeply dislike Sarkeesian but the thing is she has being harassed and I cannot and will not accept that, even if I Don't like the person. It's not right. If I disagree with someone, I can beat his/her argument with my brain. I Don't need to threat a woman like I am some sort of stupid douche with a 11 years old brain. It's not the way to win.
ILLtown
Member
She slept with 5 different guys, including her boss and Nathan Grayson of Kotaku, behind her BF's back. She continued sleeping with her BF while this was going on, which by her own definition meant that she raped him - again, that's not my definition - it's her own, based on the fact that if he'd known she was fucking 5 other doods he likely would no longer have consented to the sex he had with her. She then attempted to gaslight and emotionally manipulate him to offload blame on to him, including threatening to kill herself.
But "woman who made a game that virtually nobody cares about has sex with a bunch of guys" isn't why GamerGate happened. If that's all it was it would, at best, have been gossip that people talked about for a day before they moved on to the next piece of internet drama. It was the collusion and censorship that was going on that was the issue.
It's always amusing to me when these "journalists" try and claim it had nothing to do with ethics. Here's an archive of an article written by Ben Kuchera about Zoe Quinn back in 2014: -
https://archive.is/iuDHi
The article after it was updated: -
https://www.polygon.com/2014/3/19/5...rs-real-world-advice-support-for-dealing-with
Notice the edit at the bottom: -
The reason that many sites updated their ethics policies and started requiring their staff to disclose such relationships and financial ties is precisely because of the group that they claim has nothing to do with ethics. Funny that.....
Oh I agree with you here. Harassment should never be allowed but to Anita harassment also means disagreeing with her views over the internet. This is what she said at this UN women conference at least.
Also it did not help that journalists stated the whole fire with their articles, their secret meetings in chatrooms etc..
Cranberrys
Member
Thanks for the links.
The problem right now, to me at least, is that a legitimate claim became out of control because a minority of immature people used (and still use) harassment as a way to express themselves and Furthermore claim to speak in my name because I'm a member of the gaming Community. And that induced some sort of power struggle about who's right or wrong and right now it's easy to dismiss us and label us "toxic" because of all this brainless harassment. You Don't need much other proof but just saying "look gamers are toxic" and spread the long list of death threats, insults and so on. So yeah I can individually say, well I'm not like that, but it's hard to speak up for a group who has members behaving this way. The thing is I love this Community because it's part of my life since even before the internet, since the days we met each other at local video games stores. So yeah, I cannot just walk away from something that is a part of who I am.
At its core, the claim was legit as it is legit to challenge Sarkeesian views about the fact that we are a bunch of sexists dudes without any other scrutiny but there's a way to do it and harassment is not it.
As for Zoe Quinn, I Don't care who she sleeps with, boss, journalist or whoever. Sex is private and complicated. I slept Behind my former girlfriend's back one time and I've had a girlfriend who slept Behind my back. It is what it is, it's complicated and it's nobody's fault, things happen. Even I cannot explain rationally why I did it, so I won't judge Zoe Quinn over that either.
ILLtown
Member
Check out the leaked Crash Override Network chat logs to see how much these people really care about harassment. They are guilty of all of the things they claim to be against.
It's funny how a lot of these folks are only one step away from a paedo or sexual abuser too. Anita Sarkeesian's Twitch moderator turned out to be a convicted child sex offender. A member of Crash Override Network who used to control their social media accounts was accused by at least 20 women of harassment: -
Even that guy in the screenshot there was someone who worked for Crash Override Network, but was let go after being involved in an attempted doxing.
ILLtown
Member
Thing is, it's not like it's some organised group with leaders. Anyone can make a tweet and add a hashtag to it, including trolls who just want to watch the world burn.
Ben Kuchera (of all people), once wrote an article for Penny Arcade calling out the kind of journalism that goes on today, where a journalist will take a handful of shitty tweets and try and imply that they represent a much larger group, yet now he's one of the people involved in doing that shit himself.
Ben Kuchera before he became a SJW said:
DonF
Member
You know what...I never bothered to google her game (Depression Quest) and I ...discovered I am a game developer. I literally did something like that when I was like 10, in excel. Incredible.
I never really understood gamergate, but god damn, talk about a blowing something out of proportion.
autoduelist
Member
Holy crap. I was trying my hardest to not respond to anything in this thread... free speech in quotes and comparing insulting to slapping pushed me, but i resisted. But this?
It was your fault you cheated on your girlfriend. Yours. Its not complicated and nobody's fault, it was your decision and your fault. Through and through. Take some fucking responsibility for your actions.
I dont care who people sleep with either, in general. But if you are in the public eye, it matters. A politican deciding law should not be screwing lobbyists with an agenda. And if you are so adamant that who someone is screwing doesnt matter, you leave the world open to massive corruption. Whike it may not matter in 99.9% of situations, it absolutely matters sometimes.
TheWatcher
Banned
I much preferred Amy Henning's direction of Uncharted over Neil Druckmann. Liked the original trilogy, but Druckmann just shits all over Drake in part 4. Unacceptable.
BossLackey
Gold Member
The second I saw Anita Sarkeesian's name, I stopped reading. Their credibility went from very low to none.
BossLackey
Gold Member
This. Exactly this.
I'm so tired of offense and outrage culture. It's mentally exhuasting.
This is what happens when real problems of day to day life go away.
Instead of worrying about a lion stalking you or where you'll get your next meal, it's now about hurt feelings and being offended.
You do not have a right to not be offended.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
When the brain no longer has to worry about fighting for survival, it starts to fight itself.
Skyn3t
Banned
Ok, now it's my turn to expose the toxicity of Polygon. Enjoy the read, folks.
http://deepfreeze.it/outlet.php?o=polygon
http://deepfreeze.it/outlet.php?o=polygon
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
_Justinian_
Gold Member
...Incredible...
You could make an entire drama series from all this stuff I'm hearing about these gaming journalists.
off duty ninja
Member
How about a satire where a couple of "game journalists" write politically charged articles by day and fight for social justice by night. Cold be hilarious!
EDIT: I should have expanded on this a bit. I envision some sort of Antifa Heroes in Black tights or something and they would always get their asses kicked but come out thinking they won. Wimp Lo style.
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Phoenix RISING
Banned
And for the conclusion, because articles that problematize without conclusions are a pet peeve.
HOW CAN REAL CHANGE BE EFFECTED?
Wut? Sexual revolution didn't happen in the 90's-2000's, unless she's referencing something like "hook up culture," which coincided with purity balls and I Kissed Dating Goodbye. So, CITATIONS NEEDED.
Women's lib also preceeded the 90's-2000's. CITATIONS NEEDED. In fact, 3rd wave has more to do with feminism moving beyond white women and into the Global Public Sphere, where women in "3rd world" locations oftentimes rejected what the identified as intellectual imperialism. Also, 3rd wave brought forth a fusion of feminism and LGBT...criticism as less activist and more scholarly, but I see the quote misses this.
It does, however, accurately describe the whitelash against Obama.
None of these are solutions, but a re-statement of the problem.
I know more than a few of these individuals. In fact, one website sells tees so that one can be not just a social justice warrior, but a social justice paladin, rogue, bard, etc.
My favorite:
#facts
Cognitive dissonance is a mofo tho.
WHAT’S NEXT?
Not really looking for self-aggrandizement as seminal as Tropes is.
I agree with this and could extrapolate it beyond video games. But as the saying goes, "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality looks like oppression."
Now here is a suggestion that seems to come out of nowhere, because it's disconnected with the claim that violence as a means to solve problems is a "masculine" trait.
This reminds me of how some folks here and elsewhere roll their eyes at walking simulators, but, as I noticed on a discord, folks were disappointed in Witcher 3 because they couldn't kill NPC quest givers like in Skyrim.
Weirdos.
But yeah, I'm cool with games like Undertale.
*sips new batch of tea*
But $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I don't think much is going to change until people start getting violent. Lashing out. Suicide is a problem among LGBT, but they are killing themselves, not other people.
If/when that changes, then I think we'll see more action against hate speech. But for now, it's too profitable, as we can see in the US.
As someone who basically spent their 20's in higher ed only to discover how deep the holes are from which the moles surface, I 100% agree that things will indeed get worse before they get better.
(also, that's a biblical principle)
I giggle because these are considered "feminine" ideas. Well, not digital citizenship. More on that later.
I choose the school my kids go to because they teach this concept called "moral focus," which entails these principles. It's the closest to Christian Private School that we could identify.
Hell, I didn't even learn or understand what empathy was until the past few years (as of 2014). Most of my life, I was a misanthrope.
Now the idea of digital citizenship...I don't think that's possible unless A. the internet is no longer anonymous, which would cut out all that harassment and trolling AT ONCE, or B. the internet becomes something between The Matrix, Surrogates, and a social security card, where your "online identity" remains anonymous to everyone but authorities in the event that some illegal stuff goes down.
Nevertheless, yes, it all starts with people contributing more than "get over it," "so what," "grow a thicker skin," "deal with it" that pervades this thread--toxic masculinity.
Ah, another reason why I left. I learned and knew a ton of stuff, but would it actually do more than make me smarter? Could I change the world? Do the students care?
Nah, not gonna stress myself while being underpaid. I'll read on my own time rather than the university's.
Dang, I scroll down and that's the end????
How...sobering. Frustrating. Yeah, I think anger toward this piece is justified given the myopic solutions, lol.
Of course, most of the rage here is directed toward the questions, not the answers.
HOW CAN REAL CHANGE BE EFFECTED?
Wut? Sexual revolution didn't happen in the 90's-2000's, unless she's referencing something like "hook up culture," which coincided with purity balls and I Kissed Dating Goodbye. So, CITATIONS NEEDED.
Women's lib also preceeded the 90's-2000's. CITATIONS NEEDED. In fact, 3rd wave has more to do with feminism moving beyond white women and into the Global Public Sphere, where women in "3rd world" locations oftentimes rejected what the identified as intellectual imperialism. Also, 3rd wave brought forth a fusion of feminism and LGBT...criticism as less activist and more scholarly, but I see the quote misses this.
It does, however, accurately describe the whitelash against Obama.
None of these are solutions, but a re-statement of the problem.
I know more than a few of these individuals. In fact, one website sells tees so that one can be not just a social justice warrior, but a social justice paladin, rogue, bard, etc.
My favorite:
#facts
Cognitive dissonance is a mofo tho.
WHAT’S NEXT?
Not really looking for self-aggrandizement as seminal as Tropes is.
I agree with this and could extrapolate it beyond video games. But as the saying goes, "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality looks like oppression."
Now here is a suggestion that seems to come out of nowhere, because it's disconnected with the claim that violence as a means to solve problems is a "masculine" trait.
This reminds me of how some folks here and elsewhere roll their eyes at walking simulators, but, as I noticed on a discord, folks were disappointed in Witcher 3 because they couldn't kill NPC quest givers like in Skyrim.
Weirdos.
But yeah, I'm cool with games like Undertale.
*sips new batch of tea*
But $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I don't think much is going to change until people start getting violent. Lashing out. Suicide is a problem among LGBT, but they are killing themselves, not other people.
If/when that changes, then I think we'll see more action against hate speech. But for now, it's too profitable, as we can see in the US.
As someone who basically spent their 20's in higher ed only to discover how deep the holes are from which the moles surface, I 100% agree that things will indeed get worse before they get better.
(also, that's a biblical principle)
I giggle because these are considered "feminine" ideas. Well, not digital citizenship. More on that later.
I choose the school my kids go to because they teach this concept called "moral focus," which entails these principles. It's the closest to Christian Private School that we could identify.
Hell, I didn't even learn or understand what empathy was until the past few years (as of 2014). Most of my life, I was a misanthrope.
Now the idea of digital citizenship...I don't think that's possible unless A. the internet is no longer anonymous, which would cut out all that harassment and trolling AT ONCE, or B. the internet becomes something between The Matrix, Surrogates, and a social security card, where your "online identity" remains anonymous to everyone but authorities in the event that some illegal stuff goes down.
Nevertheless, yes, it all starts with people contributing more than "get over it," "so what," "grow a thicker skin," "deal with it" that pervades this thread--toxic masculinity.
Ah, another reason why I left. I learned and knew a ton of stuff, but would it actually do more than make me smarter? Could I change the world? Do the students care?
Nah, not gonna stress myself while being underpaid. I'll read on my own time rather than the university's.
Dang, I scroll down and that's the end????
How...sobering. Frustrating. Yeah, I think anger toward this piece is justified given the myopic solutions, lol.
Of course, most of the rage here is directed toward the questions, not the answers.
Darias
Member
Specifically - to respond to the text and further discussion:
**editing for clarity** My repeating of your words below was supposed to be in actual quote signs. they're not there.
It's the same advice of a different generation, though. 'get over it,' 'so what,' 'grow a thicker skin,' 'deal with it' was helpful to me, and the best advice around when I was growing up.
Now, it's phrased differently, and more interactive, "take a few minutes for yourself" "process why you feel that way" , hell: "stuipid people say stupid things"
To take things that have been said for at least forty years and suddenly rebrand them as toxic masculinity seems to me to make the same argument as men are inherently bad for existing and that doesn't seem to sit well with me.
At the very least, when I have said similar things to people around me, both professionally and at home with my kids, my intention surely wasn't to be toxic to the person whom with I was speaking.
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ipukespiders
Member
Perhaps she identifies as a developer?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
"Toxic Masculinity", at least the way Phoenix has used it, is nothing more than excuses to be coddled by everyone around you. Thousands of years we have seen the same phrases used in different ways, "Learn to deal with it on your own", "Sticks and Stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you", etc. Why is it only *now* they have become an issue? Because these past few generations have become more coddled and whiny than ever before.
ipukespiders
Member
No strong male role models in young boys lives. More and more children go to pre-school and day care, where they are raised by feminists.