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[Cosmogony]

it does, however, accurately describe the whitelash against Obama.

This is an example of a tremendously relevant and strictly on topic comment. If this was the Off-topic section, I just might deconstruct it.

I know more than a few of these individuals. In fact, one website sells tees so that one can be not just a social justice warrior, but a social justice paladin, rogue, bard, etc.

The fact some activists feel the compulsion to preface the self-sufficient term "Justice" with "Social" is a good indication they have a peculiar idea of fairness in mind. To compound the problem and divulge to the world their ignorance on a debate that has been going on for centuries now, they just can't fathom how anyone would oppose their highly idiosyncratic notion. But, I suppose, wearing a Tee makes ignorance fashionable.

I agree with this and could extrapolate it beyond video games. But as the saying goes, "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality looks like oppression."

Come back when you can demonstrate that privilege exists. I mean you can assert it, for years on end, no doubt about it. You can even print a T-shirt line with the motif in mind. But make a rational case for privilege, establishing causation not correlation? I'd guess it's beyond you.

Now here is a suggestion that seems to come out of nowhere, because it's disconnected with the claim that violence as a means to solve problems is a "masculine" trait.

Sometimes violence does solve problems. Getting physically attacked and reacting violently might solve the very real problem of an imminent threat to one's life. But that' self-defence. Let's see if that's what you have in mind.

I don't think much is going to change until people start getting violent. Lashing out. Suicide is a problem among LGBT, but they are killing themselves, not other people.

I really don't know how to take this. Is this incitement? Really?
If it is, then I can only hope the authorities monitor this forum.

If/when that changes, then I think we'll see more action against hate speech. But for now, it's too profitable, as we can see in the US.

The above quoted pearl of yours, now that I would describe as hate speech. Yet, because I am an individual of principles, I don't want to have you silenced. On the contrary, I want your views to reach as wide an audience as possible, so they can be exposed, debunked - which isn't terribly hard to achieve - and fought back against by peaceful, democratic and rational means. It's crystal clear just how authoritarian such views are. Of course, it's all in the name of tolerance. Authoritarianism, in the name of anti-authoritarianism.

(…) a social security card, where your "online identity" remains anonymous to everyone but authorities in the event that some illegal stuff goes down.

Whenever I read an appeal to violence - even if worded in what the author probably presumes to be subtle terms - I pounder upon the pertinence of authorities monitoring gaming forums.

Nevertheless, yes, it all starts with people contributing more than "get over it," "so what," "grow a thicker skin," "deal with it" that pervades this thread--toxic masculinity.

Interesting you would say that because I would, characterize your contribution to this thread as anything but interactive. Lengthy, yes. Engaging, not really.

Of course, most of the rage here is directed toward the questions, not the answers.

I haven't read anything that qualifies as rage, but maybe you have telepathic powers I most definitely lack. On second thought, I did read that which appears to be a subtle appeal to violence. And that can't come from a place of serenity, can it?

 

[DeliciousDoc]

No strong male role models in young boys lives. More and more children go to pre-school and day care, where they are raised by feminists.

How do you figure people working those low paying jobs are feminists?

I've worked with that age group and children are usually taught a mix of "deal with it", "explain how you feel" and "talk to the person you have a problem with first before coming to an adult" which seems like skills that the "enlightened" lack.

Lack of male rolemodel presence in education, especially in the lower grades is something that educators are aware of and try to address by what seems to be preferential hiring. ie: giving jobs to males before females.

 

[Zog]

No strong male role models in young boys lives. More and more children go to pre-school and day care, where they are raised by feminists.

Yes it's funny when women complain about modern men but never come to realize that many of those modern men were raised by single mothers.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Yes it's funny when women complain about modern men but never come to realize that many of those modern men were raised by single mothers.

"But those women come from a different time where they have a ton of internalized misogyny from the patriarchy."

There's always an answer to shift blame and never accept personal accountability.

 

[Darias]

More and more children go to pre-school and day care, where they are raised by feminists.

I don't like this, it seems like lazy thinking to me. At the very least, maybe my definition of feminism is outdated, but the movement as a whole was intended to address some very real issues with the inequity of women in contemporary society... but 'raised by feminists' discards the fact that 'don't let things other people say' is good advice in regards to blood pressure alone.

 

[autoduelist]

I agree with this and could extrapolate it beyond video games. But as the saying goes, "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality looks like oppression."

That’s a great way to marginalize people under the assumption they are more privileged than you. Oh? Oppressed? Nope, you’re just more privileged than me and don’t even understand what oppression is. In other words, what a shitty saying. Im not sure it even qualifies as a saying to begin with, but whatever.

This reminds me of how some folks here and elsewhere roll their eyes at walking simulators, but, as I noticed on a discord, folks were disappointed in Witcher 3 because they couldn't kill NPC quest givers like in Skyrim.

Weirdos.

The ability to kill npcs has a long history in western rpgs and a far deeper meaning than you imply. Reducing the issue to weirdos simply because you are unaware of or don’t relate to the issue is misguided. To be clear, It’s not specifically about killing npcs, it’s about game design. A game in which you can kill Quest giving npcs and the world adapts to this change is far more robustly designed than a game which gives characters invincibility because the designers didn’t want to deal with the ramifications of free in-game will. A perfect example is the first Fallout, in which towns lived or died on your decisions. And although the debate often rests on killing pcs, they are simply tge symbol for the deeper issue of being able to navigate a rpg world however you see fit.

Turning it into weirdos just wanting to kill people shows a thorough misunderstanding or intentional warping of the core issue and just serves as an attempt to ridicule people you want to dismiss for some reason.

You seem to make an art of minimizing and misrepresenting those you dont agree with.

Nevertheless, yes, it all starts with people contributing more than "get over it," "so what," "grow a thicker skin," "deal with it" that pervades this thread--toxic masculinity.

Being able to get over things is one of the most important life skills one can learn. Far from toxic, it's healthy as hell. Our body heals. Our mind heals. If you don't get over something, it festers. It becomes infected. It gets bigger not better. the truly toxic idea is that 'get over it' is toxic. Sure, some people use it to minimize their guilt over the impact of their bad behavior. But in general? it's fantastic advice.

*sips new batch of tea*

You may want to reconsider drinking tea while posting. Between that and your formatting it makes your posts difficult to get through without a stiff drink.

Of course, most of the rage here is directed toward the questions, not the answers.

I see very little rage here. Just people who disagree with other people.

 

[Lionel Richie]

How do you figure people working those low paying jobs are feminists?

Why wouldn't you wanna fight the system, any system, if you're poor? Besides, it's the current thing with the left. They used to target poor people because it's easy to see why they would want significant change, but that backfired when they actually got to a position of power and those people got poorer. Now it's all about social justice with some of that class struggle residue of yore since that never goes completely away.

 

[kevm3]

I'm tired of this liberal, SJW garbage that is supposedly against sexism but bashes men all day.

 

[Mouse1]

In a way it's kind of a part of multiplayer gaming culture

Yeah, and that's toxic. Insults and messing around with eachother can be hilariously creative, I agree with that. But people go pretty far, like joking about rape, pedophilia, bestiality etc. - and people aren't afraid to go into full detail.

The real interesting part of this thread, though, is the fact that so many people are quick to defend it.

 

[ruvikx]

I deeply dislike Sarkeesian but the thing is she has being harassed and I cannot and will not accept that, even if I Don't like the person. It's not right. If I disagree with someone, I can beat his/her argument with my brain. I Don't need to threat a woman like I am some sort of stupid douche with a 11 years old brain. It's not the way to win.

Sarkeesian's bread & butter is harassment, i.e. online 'harassment' is a full time (& rewarding job) for her. If people (i.e. men in particular) either ignored her, or replied "Thank you for your views, we'll take them into consideration", kaboom, she'd be out of a job. Why? Because her entire schtick rests upon taking a few comments she finds on social media & projecting sexism/racism/misogyny/bigotry/toxic masculinity (whatever the fck that means) onto all male gamers. She's a political warrior who needs 'bad guys' to further her agenda & manufactures them when necessary.

 

[ruvikx]

In a way it's kind of a part of multiplayer gaming culture

Yeah, and that's toxic. Insults and messing around with eachother can be hilariously creative, I agree with that. But people go pretty far, like joking about rape, pedophilia, bestiality etc. - and people aren't afraid to go into full detail.

The real interesting part of this thread, though, is the fact that so many people are quick to defend it.

Because there's far more important shit in life than 'hurt feelings'. Sticks & stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

I learned that as a kid, as did many others. This new (& insane) epoch in which people actively go hunting for victimhood status is a bad joke.

 

[Mouse1]

Because there's far more important shit in life than 'hurt feelings'. Sticks & stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

I learned that as a kid, as did many others. This new (& insane) epoch in which people actively go hunting for victimhood status is a bad joke.

Different strokes, but I see nothing wrong with acknowledging when people are out of line. If this is what makes you feel oppressed, then you lead a pretty decent life as a member of society.

 

[Dunki]

No strong male role models in young boys lives. More and more children go to pre-school and day care, where they are raised by feminists.

Another reason why Boys falling so much bhind in terms of education
Eliminating feminist teacher bias erases boys' falling grades

 

[autoduelist]

The real interesting part of this thread, though, is the fact that so many people are quick to defend it.

I see the vast majority of peopke denouncing the behavior and providing techniques to deal with it. Where are people defending it?

 

[ruvikx]

Different strokes, but I see nothing wrong with acknowledging when people are out of line. If this is what makes you feel oppressed, then you lead a pretty decent life as a member of society.

There are 7 billion people on this planet. Now, it's somewhat guaranteed I could go looking for views, comments & behaviors within that rather large group of humans which offend me, insult me, hate me. Point being? I reject the actual pretence Sarkeesian is even a victim of harassment because she's essentially just an interloper who sticks her nose in someone else's sandbox (gaming) & shrieks about bad behavior which she selectively handpicks then subsequently projects onto all gamers. It's shitty tactics & needs to be called out.

Her intent from day one was to remove a very male centric hobby from the cultural landscape & make it far leftist... in her own image. To do this she needed 'bad guys' to justify the reforms she wanted. Hence gamergate, i.e. the elusive bogeyman the radical left wanted, created & thrives upon.

 

[TannerDemoz]

Another reason why Boys falling so much bhind in terms of education
Eliminating feminist teacher bias erases boys' falling grades

This isn't an issue. If it was, it might make sense, but it isn't. Here's my take on this (I thought it was a really, really poor article).

• 1 - This seems to be from a really conservative website in Northern Ireland (I guess). Why? It's got Abortion, then faith, then family as its primary news sections.
• 2 - Complete lack of source material throughout. Quotes are sketchy and bounce around to suit the author's opinion. Here's what they say the research has actually found: Boys from poor neighbourhoods in Belfast and other cities are especially vulnerable to learning underachievement and health problems. How is this down a feminist teaching style? These kids would obviously be more likely to start school without the vital skills they need.
• 3 - Lol. The nearest thing they have to an actual quote that backs up their headline is from a pupil: "Teachers should understand better the way boys think and why they do some things. They’re out of touch.”
• 4 - So, I'm halfway down the article now and there's no research or source to justify the headline. In fact, they've now jumped from this Irish research to American research – without providing anything yet
• 5 - Just found a really nice Facebook advert: 'Click like if you want to end abortion'
• 6 - "The answer lies in the way teachers, who are statistically mostly women, evaluate students without reference to objective test scores. Boys are regularly graded well below their actual academic performance." - This isn't how schools/colleges work? I don't understand this.
• 7 - "Teachers, he says, tend to assess students on non-cognitive, “socio-emotional skills.” – Wait, is the author saying that, at school, we got graded on social skills? And not our work? Feel free to explain this to me, but I'm smelling a lot of bullshit ATM!
• 8 - Cornwell notes that “the girl-boy gap in reading grades is over 300 percent larger than the white-black reading gap,” and boy-girl gap is about 40 percent larger than the white-black grade gaps. This makes sense. Girls read more than boys (at school – lot of research shows this) and have a more positive perception of their education (young boys usually see it as 'uncool', again, plenty of research backing this up – it's not down to a 'feminist teaching ideology'
• 9 - Further down, still no actual evidence. But wait, the author has now quoted five paragraphs of Christina Hoff Sommers, author of the book The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men...
• 10 - So, in summary, the author has some research from a study (what I quoted in bold) but then finds his own way of saying this is because of feminism. Really bad article. Also from a very conservative website so there's immediate bias (which is really obvious if you read the piece).

 

[Mouse1]

There are 7 billion people on this planet. Now, it's somewhat guaranteed I could go looking for views, comments & behaviors within that rather large group of humans which offend me, insult me, hate me. Point being? I reject the actual pretence Sarkeesian is even a victim of harassment because she's essentially just an interloper who sticks her nose in someone else's sandbox (gaming) & shrieks about bad behavior which she selectively handpicks then subsequently projects onto all gamers. It's shitty tactics & needs to be called out.

Her intent from day one was to remove a very male centric hobby from the cultural landscape & make it far leftist... in her own image. To do this she needed 'bad guys' to justify the reforms she wanted. Hence gamergate, i.e. the elusive bogeyman the radical left wanted, created & thrives upon.

Hey, man, I'm not on Sarkeesian's side. She's a scam artist who probably hasn't even picked up a controller in a very long time. Aside from taking money from idiots, she hasn't really done much wrong. She's loud and attracts a lot of other white feminists who love to complain, sure, but that's more of an extreme annoyance than anything.

Gamergate is actually fucked up. It's one thing to call someone a stupid butthole with a fat mama, but death and rape threats shouldn't be welcome in any environment, even between dudes. The fact that it's even normalized enough for anyone to be able to shrug it off and say "such is gamer life!" ain't right.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

Hey, man, I'm not on Sarkeesian's side. She's a scam artist who probably hasn't even picked up a controller in a very long time. Aside from taking money from idiots, she hasn't really done much wrong. She's loud and attracts a lot of other white feminists who love to complain, sure, but that's more of an extreme annoyance than anything.

If Encyclopedia Dramatica is to be believed, she also was a con artist that scummed a lot of people for their money and had a sexual offender/pedophile working for her.

I can dig for more info there if you wish me to.

 

[Cranberrys]

Sarkeesian's bread & butter is harassment, i.e. online 'harassment' is a full time (& rewarding job) for her. If people (i.e. men in particular) either ignored her, or replied "Thank you for your views, we'll take them into consideration", kaboom, she'd be out of a job. Why? Because her entire schtick rests upon taking a few comments she finds on social media & projecting sexism/racism/misogyny/bigotry/toxic masculinity (whatever the fck that means) onto all male gamers. She's a political warrior who needs 'bad guys' to further her agenda & manufactures them when necessary.

I totally agree with your assessment on Sarkeesian but death and rape threats are not the correct answer and it's not OK. Because in that case she wins, if the only answer an entire Community can give her is death and rape threats that means that we have the IQ of a 12 years old boy.

Sarkeesian (and Polygon and all that movement) is an attention seeker, you win by deny her the attention, by being smart, by beating her at her own game, Harvey Specter style, not by threatening her or anyone.

 

[ruvikx]

I totally agree with your assessment on Sarkeesian but death and rape threats are not the correct answer and it's not OK. Because in that case she wins, if the only answer an entire Community can give her is death and rape threats that means that we have the IQ of a 12 years old boy.

There are over 100 million 'gamers', i.e. I'm talking about a gamer total based upon console & pc sales data. Now, when somebody within that 100 million - who himself is at the other side of the world (I'm in western Europe) - happens to send someone like Sarkeesian a 'death threat', only a very sick person with malicious intent would somehow associate that persons behavior with me & millions of others like myself who just want to play video games & tell far left politics to GTFO.

It's absurd. Sarkeesian is absurd & none of them (media included) have any moral superiority whatsoever, hence their mislabeling of entire groups (aka "white men are toxic") & constant aggression.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I think you're pigeon holing what the other side actually is when it comes to a discussion of toxicity in gaming culture. I really believe the other side are the people who think that the people that are always screaming racism, sexism, phobias, etc., are in fact the most toxic aspect of the gaming community, both because of their rhetoric (often consisting of false charges) and especially because of the divide it has caused. Yes, there are some outlanders who they properly despise and that are absolute scumbags and looking to pick on people because of race, sex, etc. But I have played a lot of games, and they do not constitute the majority of people I interact with, and they usually have very squeaky and immature voices. So from my vantage point, someone like Colin M should have been invited long before someone who's only job is telling us how sexist we all are, if we are actually talking about toxicity in gaming culture and not just accusing white men of being toxic people.

No, the divide was created by people who think racism, sexism, etc should be tolerated. There's plenty of hand-waving in this thread, so you don't have to go far to find it.

The claim to false charges is unsubstantiated. In the calendar year alone:

Competitive Overwatch Player Preys on Underage Teen
Competitive Overwatch Player Fined & Suspended for Homophobic Rhetoric
JonTron is a POS
Ninja Uses Racial Slur on Stream
CS: GO Commentator Suspended for Using Racial Slur
Female Overwatch Player Uploades 16 Minutes of Sexism TOXIC MASCULINITY

And that's just the stuff I remember.

 

[ruvikx]

No, the divide was created by people who think racism, sexism, etc should be tolerated. There's plenty of hand-waving in this thread, so you don't have to go far to find it.

If people don't like comments or views, they can personally block them (easy peasy on social media). The real psychos are those who go looking for those views, project them onto the majority & use that newly self-ordained moral superiority in an attempt to socially engineer a new culture out of thin air & basically crush whatever was there beforehand - including 99.9% of folks who never sent anyone a rape or death threat.

I 'hand-wave' (if that's what you want to call it) most of these examples of 'toxicity' because in the grand scheme of our planet's problems (environment, poverty, resources mismanagement & the human condition) it's all fcking bullshit, i.e. "reeee, this person right here thousands of miles away just posted something mean on Twitter/wherever, so let's label all gamers & white men toxic misogynistic racist assholes!".

Point being: their 'cure' is worse than the ailment, i.e. a brigade of malcontent far left extremists with a worldview which at best is tainted by heavy bias (& at worse is borderline criminal) have zero right to morally police anyone. Polygon & such outlets are populated by weirdos with serious mental issues who've all graduated in an extreme political environment which is hellbent on enacting (forcefully) radical social changes by any means possible. It's a goddamn culture war I want no part of & practically reject in its entirety because the 'warriors' fighting for it are assholes themselves.

It's like an unfunny throwback to the Bolshevik revolution (minus the violence... to a certain extent), i.e. mentally disturbed freaks using examples of injustice/wrongdoing (the Tsar's regime) to create a 'new world' - which was fcking shit for everyone. History repeats itself.

 

[Dunki]

This isn't an issue. If it was, it might make sense, but it isn't. Here's my take on this (I thought it was a really, really poor article).

• 1 - This seems to be from a really conservative website in Northern Ireland (I guess). Why? It's got Abortion, then faith, then family as its primary news sections.
• 2 - Complete lack of source material throughout. Quotes are sketchy and bounce around to suit the author's opinion. Here's what they say the research has actually found: Boys from poor neighbourhoods in Belfast and other cities are especially vulnerable to learning underachievement and health problems. How is this down a feminist teaching style? These kids would obviously be more likely to start school without the vital skills they need.
• 3 - Lol. The nearest thing they have to an actual quote that backs up their headline is from a pupil: "Teachers should understand better the way boys think and why they do some things. They’re out of touch.”
• 4 - So, I'm halfway down the article now and there's no research or source to justify the headline. In fact, they've now jumped from this Irish research to American research – without providing anything yet
• 5 - Just found a really nice Facebook advert: 'Click like if you want to end abortion'
• 6 - "The answer lies in the way teachers, who are statistically mostly women, evaluate students without reference to objective test scores. Boys are regularly graded well below their actual academic performance." - This isn't how schools/colleges work? I don't understand this.
• 7 - "Teachers, he says, tend to assess students on non-cognitive, “socio-emotional skills.” – Wait, is the author saying that, at school, we got graded on social skills? And not our work? Feel free to explain this to me, but I'm smelling a lot of bullshit ATM!
• 8 - Cornwell notes that “the girl-boy gap in reading grades is over 300 percent larger than the white-black reading gap,” and boy-girl gap is about 40 percent larger than the white-black grade gaps. This makes sense. Girls read more than boys (at school – lot of research shows this) and have a more positive perception of their education (young boys usually see it as 'uncool', again, plenty of research backing this up – it's not down to a 'feminist teaching ideology'
• 9 - Further down, still no actual evidence. But wait, the author has now quoted five paragraphs of Christina Hoff Sommers, author of the book The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men...
• 10 - So, in summary, the author has some research from a study (what I quoted in bold) but then finds his own way of saying this is because of feminism. Really bad article. Also from a very conservative website so there's immediate bias (which is really obvious if you read the piece).

Yes it is a problem. Especially when we go by shit like this. PEople and sites like this do not even hide it anymore that they want to get rid of masculinity.



. It is having an obvious bias about young boys which leads also to more suspension and harsh punishments. Feminist bias starts when they are getting suspended for bringing superhero figruines to school, when they use rulers as swords etc. Even though that it is scientifically proven that stuff like rough play helps young boys to concentrate better in school because they are getting rid of their energy etc. Also I love how you dismiss someone like Sommers because she is a more conservative person. Even worse then the "feminist" site is celebrating it when they burn her books. Or the fucking harassment she recieved when her husband died. But since she was in support of Gamergate she probably deserved all this according to you right?

So yeah I rather go with her opinion than with people celebrating this kind of behaviour. But also it is really sad to ignore how boys are getting left behind in education. How you ignore the fact that modern Feminism hates male behaviour and wnats to get rid of it. AKA vice for example. And it is also sad how you totally ignore statistics because they do not fit with your political view. And yes I went with memes because this is ucking true. Modern Feminism is facism at its finest.

 

[Mouse1]

If Encyclopedia Dramatica is to be believed, she also was a con artist that scummed a lot of people for their money and had a sexual offender/pedophile working for her.

I can dig for more info there if you wish me to.

You can't be serious with a source like that. I'll do my own digging, thanks.

 

[Cranberrys]

No, the divide was created by people who think racism, sexism, etc should be tolerated. There's plenty of hand-waving in this thread, so you don't have to go far to find it.

I really Don't think that any person here thinks that racism or sexism is Something that should be tolerated or praised and from what I've read so far I also think that everyone pretty much agrees that harassment is not a cool thing to do.

I also think that many of us are tired of all this stuff and just want to go back to a place they can discuss games with other passionate people and have stimulating conversations without being labeled anything.

Video games characters were always diverse and that's a fact. The fact that so many JRPGs, which was the dominating RPG genre on console during the 8/16/32 and to some extant 128-bit era were androginous males (and not only white) and a lot of strong female characters. So it's a little difficult to label a dude (and I'm talking about myself and thousands of others gamers) as sexist or racist when they worship a genre that was, at its core, about respecting your fellow human no matter his/hers gender or race. We grew up with those games, we loved those games and many of us are still fond of those games.

A white supremacist doesn't play games in which boys looks like girls and teams are a mix of white, black, asian guys and women.

But of course, it's easier for Sarkeesian and her followers to dismiss all that, to alter video games history to a point where until her arrival of course, video games were the most direct highway to hell and that the Community is populated by Duke Nukem worshippers who only think about spanking a woman's ass. But, hey, they are here now and, praise the Lord, they will save us from ourselves.

How twisted is that ?

If you replace racism/sexism by violence/social disorder it's the exact same speech we have undergone back in the 90's when politicians, bigots and so on pointed the finger at us and told us we were stupid brainless kids. Same shit, different day.

The thing is, back then, it was a US VS THEM situation. Now, the Community is splitted in three. You have what I call the "classic gaming Community" basically people who just want to talk about and play games without pushing any agenda (which is the one I love) and the "SJW gaming Community" at open war and you have extreme guerilla elements from both communities that are responsible for the "atrocities" of this war. So yeah not pretty. Can things go back to the way they were ? I hope so, but I Don't know for sure because the longer it last the more resentment you feel. It's sad, really.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I really Don't think that any person here thinks that racism or sexism is Something that should be tolerated or praised and from what I've read so far I also think that everyone pretty much agrees that harassment is not a cool thing to do.

I also think that many of us are tired of all this stuff and just want to go back to a place they can discuss games with other passionate people and have stimulating conversations without being labeled anything.

Video games characters were always diverse and that's a fact. The fact that so many JRPGs, which was the dominating RPG genre on console during the 8/16/32 and to some extant 128-bit era were androginous males (and not only white) and a lot of strong female characters. So it's a little difficult to label a dude (and I'm talking about myself and thousands of others gamers) as sexist or racist when they worship a genre that was, at its core, about respecting your fellow human no matter his/hers gender or race. We grew up with those games, we loved those games and many of us are still fond of those games.

A white supremacist doesn't play games in which boys looks like girls and teams are a mix of white, black, asian guys and women.

But of course, it's easier for Sarkeesian and her followers to dismiss all that, to alter video games history to a point where until her arrival of course, video games were the most direct highway to hell and that the Community is populated by Duke Nukem worshippers who only think about spanking a woman's ass. But, hey, they are here now and, praise the Lord, they will save us from ourselves.

How twisted is that ?

If you replace racism/sexism by violence/social disorder it's the exact same speech we have undergone back in the 90's when politicians, bigots and so on pointed the finger at us and told us we were stupid brainless kids. Same shit, different day.

The thing is, back then, it was a US VS THEM situation. Now, the Community is splitted in three. You have what I call the "classic gaming Community" basically people who just want to talk about and play games without pushing any agenda (which is the one I love) and the "SJW gaming Community" at open war and you have extreme guerilla elements from both communities that are responsible for the "atrocities" of this war. So yeah not pretty. Can things go back to the way they were ? I hope so, but I Don't know for sure because the longer it last the more resentment you feel. It's sad, really.

Video games were always diverse?

You mean when we thought Samus was a male according to the instruction manual or when speedrunners saw her in a swimsuit in Super Metroid? Laura Croft is introduced in PS1 era modeled after Baywatch? Chun-Li winning Video Game Babe of the Year in EGM?

Black or Latinx leads? Who are not caricatures like Balrog or Dee Jay or Barrett?

Your usage of "diverse" strikes me as vague.

Lastly, "not pushing any agenda," is an apolitical stance, which is, in fact, a political agenda in itself.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

Black or Latinx leads? Who are not caricatures like Balrog or Dee Jay or Barrett?

Your usage of "diverse" strikes me as vague.

Lastly, "not pushing any agenda," is an apolitical stance, which is, in fact, a political agenda in itself.

Two things here.

1. How is Balrog/Dee Jay/ Barret carricatures anymore than Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, Guile, Bison, etc?

2.Can you construct this syllogism from beginning to end, because I don't follow it, sadly.

 

[ruvikx]

Lastly, "not pushing any agenda," is an apolitical stance, which is, in fact, a political agenda in itself.

If someone sends a rape or death threat, the police exists for a reason. Anita & co meanwhile take those rare extreme examples & use them as a pretext to alter the very foundations of the industry & culture itself - as if there's a widespread "culture" which makes one in a million people send a death threat.

It's BULLSHIT. For what it's worth, politics itself probably needs to be redefined in this context because what we're experiencing in this culture war isn't politics but a straight-up hate filled shit-fight initiated by the radical SJW's who declared war on 'gamers'. I'm getting pretty sick & tired of aggressive personalities with far reaching agendas hiding behind 'politics'.

Anita isn't political, she's hateful.

 

[ILLtown]

Hey, man, I'm not on Sarkeesian's side. She's a scam artist who probably hasn't even picked up a controller in a very long time.

She's not a gamer, that's for sure.

She did a Twitch stream a year or two ago where she played a couple of Mario games. She first tried to play Mario Kart, but she was veering left and right, unable to stay on the track, all while shouting "fuck me! fuck! shit!" repeatedly throughout the race, like some toxic 12 year old you'd hear on Xbox Live. She came dead last and this was the first race in the 50cc cup. Then she tried playing Super Mario World, but couldn't make it past world 1-2 and had to get someone to take over.

A lot of these people are hypocrites though. In one video Sarkeesian said she's been playing video games since she was a kid. In another, where she maybe didn't even know she was being recorded, she said that she's not a fan of video games, doesn't play them, and had to learn about them specifically to make a video critiquing them. So which is the truth? They can't both be true. Brianna Wu is the same, rambling on about sexism and misogyny in games, but then creating her own game where the characters are impossibly proportioned big-titted Barbie dolls. Ben Kuchera talks about the horrible way that people try and get someone fired for making tweets, when he repeatedly tried to get a teenager fired from Dicks for making tweets. Zoe Quinn runs an "anti-harassment" organisation where, behind the scenes, its employees are harassing people, laughing at people who've been harassed and doxed, and even planned doxings of their own. Leigh Alexander cries about the nasty atmosphere created by toxic gamers who want to push people they don't like out of the gaming world, then bullies people on Twitter telling folks that she has the power in the industry to end careers, including being incredibly mean to one girl and then tweeting out "maybe mean of me to burn a young female writer, but this is not gonna be a career for her". Phil Fish blabs on about how toxic gamer culture is, when he's one of the most nasty, toxic people in the gaming world, constantly shitting on gamers as a whole and thinking he's some fucking messiah. The list goes on.

Oh, I almost forgot Jim Sterling, who jumped on the pro-feminist/anti-GG wagon, when it wasn't that long ago that he used to talk to women who disagreed with him on Twitter like this: -

So many of these people are complete and utter hypocrites, yet they're up on their high horses trying to tell other people what pieces of shit they are. Projection can be a terrible thing.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Two things here.

1. How is Balrog/Dee Jay/ Barret carricatures anymore than Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, Guile, Bison, etc?

2.Can you construct this syllogism from beginning to end, because I don't follow it, sadly.

The tie-in, was the paragraph that preceded what you quoted, which established the problematical depictions in Cranberrys' claim that "video games have always been diverse."

Balrog/Dee Jay/ Barrett were continuations of what I began with Samus and Laura and Chun-Li.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

Balrog/Dee Jay/ Barrett were continuations of what I began with Samus and Laura and Chun-Li.

Some of the most diverse and iconic characters in gaming. I still fail to see what is wrong with them.

 

[Cranberrys]

Video games were always diverse?

You mean when we thought Samus was a male according to the instruction manual or when speedrunners saw her in a swimsuit in Super Metroid? Laura Croft is introduced in PS1 era modeled after Baywatch? Chun-Li winning Video Game Babe of the Year in EGM?

Black or Latinx leads? Who are not caricatures like Balrog or Dee Jay or Barrett?

Your usage of "diverse" strikes me as vague.

Lastly, "not pushing any agenda," is an apolitical stance, which is, in fact, a political agenda in itself.

Well, I was talking about JRPGs.

Anyway, so the fact that Chun-Li was Babe of the Year is really that offensive ? I see that as a funny thing rather than Something done to offend people. The fact that Lara is modeled after Baywatch (which is not the primary inspiration, at least to my knowledge) is offensive ? How exactly ?

Lara is a strong woman, she's bad ass, and she looks good, she's confortable with herself, she doesn't have to justify that. In my book, it's the exact definition of a free woman. I mean Lara could beat the shit out of Nathan Drake without even blinking an eye but you are telling me that she is, as a video games character, offensive to women ? So I suppose the same goes with Chloe ? In fact, any woman who looks good, who has a sense of sexuality, is offensive ? So we forget about the deeds this women do in their dedicated video games, the dangers they overcome, the shit they went through... It doesn't matter. The mere fact that they are attractive women who claimed their sexuality is enough to label them male fantasies and dismiss everything else about their persona. Well then, let's agree to disagree.

 

[ILLtown]

The objectification of Street Fighter characters is clearly disgusting and completely unaccepta.....

......oh.

 

[TannerDemoz]

Yes it is a problem. Especially when we go by shit like this. PEople and sites like this do not even hide it anymore that they want to get rid of masculinity.



. It is having an obvious bias about young boys which leads also to more suspension and harsh punishments. Feminist bias starts when they are getting suspended for bringing superhero figruines to school, when they use rulers as swords etc. Even though that it is scientifically proven that stuff like rough play helps young boys to concentrate better in school because they are getting rid of their energy etc. Also I love how you dismiss someone like Sommers because she is a more conservative person. Even worse then the "feminist" site is celebrating it when they burn her books. Or the fucking harassment she recieved when her husband died. But since she was in support of Gamergate she probably deserved all this according to you right?

So yeah I rather go with her opinion than with people celebrating this kind of behaviour. But also it is really sad to ignore how boys are getting left behind in education. How you ignore the fact that modern Feminism hates male behaviour and wnats to get rid of it. AKA vice for example. And it is also sad how you totally ignore statistics because they do not fit with your political view. And yes I went with memes because this is ucking true. Modern Feminism is facism at its finest.

Dunky, how did anything you just write here legitimise the article I was talking about? You’ve just gone off on a tangent about feminism. I’m pointing out the article you sourced is bullshit. You’ve not answered me.

Also, what statistics did I ignore?

Also, my girlfriend wouldn’t agree with any of the ‘feminist bullshit’ you just showed from VICE. She is a feminist. What does that make her?

Also, I would love to see examples of kids getting suspended for bringing boys action figures into school, because that is insane if it’s happening.

 

[TannerDemoz]

(Double post - delete)

 

[Mouse1]

She's not a gamer, that's for sure.

She did a Twitch stream a year or two ago where she played a couple of Mario games. She first tried to play Mario Kart, but she was veering left and right, unable to stay on the track, all while shouting "fuck me! fuck! shit!" repeatedly throughout the race, like some toxic 12 year old you'd hear on Xbox Live. She came dead last and this was the first race in the 50cc cup. Then she tried playing Super Mario World, but couldn't make it past world 1-2 and had to get someone to take over.

A lot of these people are hypocrites though. In one video Sarkeesian said she's been playing video games since she was a kid. In another, where she maybe didn't even know she was being recorded, she said that she's not a fan of video games, doesn't play them, and had to learn about them specifically to make a video critiquing them. So which is the truth? They can't both be true. Brianna Wu is the same, rambling on about sexism and misogyny in games, but then creating her own game where the characters are impossibly proportioned big-titted Barbie dolls. Ben Kuchera talks about the horrible way that people try and get someone fired for making tweets, when he repeatedly tried to get a teenager fired from Dicks for making tweets. Zoe Quinn runs an "anti-harassment" organisation where, behind the scenes, its employees are harassing people, laughing at people who've been harassed and doxed, and even planned doxings of their own. Leigh Alexander cries about the nasty atmosphere created by toxic gamers who want to push people they don't like out of the gaming world, then bullies people on Twitter telling folks that she has the power in the industry to end careers, including being incredibly mean to one girl and then tweeting out "maybe mean of me to burn a young female writer, but this is not gonna be a career for her". Phil Fish blabs on about how toxic gamer culture is, when he's one of the most nasty, toxic people in the gaming world, constantly shitting on gamers as a whole and thinking he's some fucking messiah. The list goes on.

Oh, I almost forgot Jim Sterling, who jumped on the pro-feminist/anti-GG wagon, when it wasn't that long ago that he used to talk to women who disagreed with him on Twitter like this: -

So many of these people are complete and utter hypocrites, yet they're up on their high horses trying to tell other people what pieces of shit they are. Projection can be a terrible thing.

This is a great comment.

Those faux feminists are a joke. The movement is actually a great thing in theory, for both women and men. I wholly believe Anita isn't a gamer, and your Twitch story is making me laugh at how clearly I can picture it.

Gamer Gate is garbage, but so are these "feminists". Two sides of the same coin, both doing a disservice to women and, indeed, men.

 

[autoduelist]

It's one thing to call someone a stupid butthole with a fat mama, but death and rape threats shouldn't be welcome in any environment, even between dudes. The fact that it's even normalized enough for anyone to be able to shrug it off and say "such is gamer life!" ain't right.

I don't think they are normalized. I think those are extreme outliers that everyone agrees are terrible. The problem is that some attribute it to the entire community which forces people to respond which then gets labeled as defending them.

that means that we have the IQ of a 12 years old boy.

this is not a direct response to you, but I keep seeing this 12 year old boy thing come up.. here's the thing, there are tons of preteens playing games. So pointing to behavior and telling the community they're acting like 12 year olds doesn't make sense to me. That's like going to the zoo and complaining some are acting like giraffes. Well, of course a contingent act like giraffes. They are giraffes!

And kids have a long history of being absolutely brutal to other kids, an unfortunate fact that predates digital by a long mile.

No, the divide was created by people who think racism, sexism, etc should be tolerated. There's plenty of hand-waving in this thread, so you don't have to go far to find it.

your definition of tolerated is broken. If I hear someone use a slur online, I let him know in no uncertain terms what I think of him and then mute him. However, since I disagree with you on very many points, you would consider me recommending muting peopleas tolerating.

You maufacture opponents by labeling anyone who disagrees with you as racist, sexist, etc. No. We just think you are wrong.

The mere fact that they are attractive women who claimed their sexuality is enough to label them male fantasies and dismiss everything else about their persona. Well then, let's agree to disagree.

Meanwhile, a gif of 30 impossibly handsome and muscular and perfect men is promoting men, whereas 30 impossibly beautiful and muscular and perfect females is sexualizing them.

 

[Cranberrys]

this is not a direct response to you, but I keep seeing this 12 year old boy thing come up.. here's the thing, there are tons of preteens playing games. So pointing to behavior and telling the community they're acting like 12 year olds doesn't make sense to me. That's like going to the zoo and complaining some are acting like giraffes. Well, of course a contingent act like giraffes. They are giraffes!

And kids have a long history of being absolutely brutal to other kids, an unfortunate fact that predates digital by a long mile.

I was using the 12 year old thing to point the fact that harassment and threats are immature behaviour but otherwise, yeah you are right.

 

[bosnianpie]

Does anyone here remember the good old days? We would play games like CS 1.6 late into the night and suddenly someone wished you dead, questioned your sexuality or implied that they were having coitus with your sister. Remember how it didn't really bother us? I miss those days.

Articles like this has become an industry that employs many people. They are not interested in balanced texts or solutions. They've gathered a bunch of feminists to let them explain "toxic male behavior" because they know it will generate more clicks than any other article on their site.

Don't give Polygon clicks, let them scream into their echo-chamber until the head bursts. There are plenty of ways to get gaming news without supporting garbage like this.

 

[mad597]

I don't like this, it seems like lazy thinking to me. At the very least, maybe my definition of feminism is outdated, but the movement as a whole was intended to address some very real issues with the inequity of women in contemporary society... but 'raised by feminists' discards the fact that 'don't let things other people say' is good advice in regards to blood pressure alone.

Also Funny to see people try and blame being raised by feminists when the Dad bails on the family. Hey maybe if dad stuck around to live up to his responsibility as a dad these kids wouldn't be "raised by feminists"

So many posts in thread just confirm what polygon says, its like a cliche of neck beard basement dwelling incels in real life.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Also Funny to see people try and blame being raised by feminists when the Dad bails on the family. Hey maybe if dad stuck around to live up to his responsibility as a dad these kids wouldn't be "raised by feminists"

So many posts in thread just confirm what polygon says, its like a cliche of neck beard basement dwelling incels in real life.

Maybe sexually liberated mommy doesn't know who the papi is?

 

[mad597]

Maybe sexually liberated mommy doesn't know who the papi is?

Maybe papi should stop drinking all the time and hanging out at strip clubs and beating mommy and be a real damn dad. You guys seem to be just fucking afraid of women no wonder this incel thing happened. Can't get laid? must be feminism.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Maybe papi should stop drinking all the time and hanging out at strip clubs and beating mommy and be a real damn dad. You guys seem to be just fucking afraid of women no wonder this incel thing happened. Can't get laid? must be feminism.

Fellow internet gaming forum nerd.

 

[Cosmogony]

The tie-in, was the paragraph that preceded what you quoted, which established the problematical depictions in Cranberrys' claim that "video games have always been diverse."

In writing, why should creatives have to cater to your unsubstantiated notion that characters are somehow not merely specific fictional individuals but instead representatives of entire social groups which number in the millions? Why on Earth should their creative vision and freedom to write the sort of fiction they bloody want have to kneel down to your real-life political doctrine? Can you make at a rational argument for your position?

No, the divide was created by people who think racism, sexism, etc should be tolerated. There's plenty of hand-waving in this thread, so you don't have to go far to find it.

No, the divide was deliberately created by those who are constantly revising language so to better suit their conjunctural needs. Racism - which absolutely should be fought against - is the belief or behaviour founded on that belief that a given race and all its members is superior or inferior to the others and all their respective members. Derogatory language aimed at specific individuals but which does not express the above view is still highly reproachable and should carry consequences but it is not racist. Conversely, any statement that expresses the mentioned viewpoint and uttered by not matter whom is racist. This is relevant because recently there's this odd double-standard floating around whereby members of certain ethnic groups have been deemed eternally non-racist no matter what, even when they have expressed obvious racism towards other groups.

The claim to false charges is unsubstantiated. In the calendar year alone:

(…)

And that's just the stuff I remember.

Is there rude, mean, vitriolic, humiliating language being thrown around on the web? Definitely. Should it be condemned? No question about it. Should the authors suffer consequences, notably being kicked out of online gaming platforms? In severe cases, absolutely. Are the offenders predominantly male? I'd need to review the data, but it wouldn't surprise me.

But instead of providing data you decided to copy paste examples, thus exposing that you do not know what anecdotal evidence is. And then you want the world to reward your ignorance by putting stock on your professions of faith. Sorry, no can do.

Far worse than abusive language, condemnable per se, is violent behaviour. Let's look at an example of incitement to violence on this very thread:

I don't think much is going to change until people start getting violent. Lashing out. Suicide is a problem among LGBT, but they are killing themselves, not other people.

If/when that changes, then I think we'll see more action against hate speech. But for now, it's too profitable, as we can see in the US.

In your world view words are terrible but real acts of violence by a select few are to have you turning a blind eye or a nod of approval. This is the kind of abhorrent dangerous distortions you're rationalizing.

Lastly, "not pushing any agenda," is an apolitical stance, which is, in fact, a political agenda in itself.

So an apolitical stance is now a political stance? So apolitical stances don't really exist, do they? I mean, you've said so and thus it must be true. Brilliant. I guess not collecting stamps is a hobby, not water-skiing is a sport and not knowing how to sing a talent.

 

[CatLady]

You shouldn't link their stuff at all, you play their game... or maybe you are a double agent?! :O

Truth - like a fool I clicked the link then quickly realized the error of my ways and backed the hell out.

Not interested in supporting anything Polygon has to say about "toxic masculinity". I'm a female but very tired of the constant hating on men. I love ya guys

 

[EventHorizon]

I worked for 17 years (1999 - 2016) in a marketing department of a major french retailer (Micromania owned since 2008 by Gamespot) and I can tell you that a positive review of any game by any game journalist doesn't necessarily translate into great sales. We see that recently with some Bethesda games. So, if Zoe Quinn did trade sex for favor over an indie game nobody knew about so maybe she won Something like 30 sales (and I'm large). It's not Worth it and I'm pretty sure she knew that because it's not a secret insider information. Chances are she slept with the guy because she liked the guy. Big deal.

Disclaimer: I have no idea what motivations Zoe Quinn had about this situation. I am not commenting on the specifics of gamergate. I am only commenting on the logic of this defense that there would be no motivation for a small developer to try to influence the opinion of a reviewer..

I don't find this a credible defense. The argument is trying to use the incentives and motivations of a large developer, like Bethesda, to prove something about a small developer. The different scales involved simply make any such comparison invalid.

First, incredibly small games are never going to get many sales. What might be an insignificant number of sales for a more commercial game, would be very significant for a smaller game and developer trying to build a name. Second, while a good review might not ensure great sales, a bad review, especially for an unknown game and developer, could be a death knell. Any reviewer who reviews small little known indie games has a disproportionate influence over the small audience likely to buy such a game. Big publication don't cater to that audience. Finally, smaller games get very few reviews. For example, Quinn's Depression Quest only has a single review on Metacritic. Manipulating the opinion of even a single reviewer or commenter would be highly advantageous to someone trying to promote a small game.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Zoe Quinn's game has always been free. Nothing she did was to gain sales, but exposure and influence in the gaming industry.

I don't know if she has a job at this point, she was involved with a few failed endeavors, but her Patreon has been a significant source of income for her, and it depends on that exposure to sustain those numbers.

 

[Cranberrys]

Disclaimer: I have no idea what motivations Zoe Quinn had about this situation. I am not commenting on the specifics of gamergate. I am only commenting on the logic of this defense that there would be no motivation for a small developer to try to influence the opinion of a reviewer..

I don't find this a credible defense. The argument is trying to use the incentives and motivations of a large developer, like Bethesda, to prove something about a small developer. The different scales involved simply make any such comparison invalid.

First, incredibly small games are never going to get many sales. What might be an insignificant number of sales for a more commercial game, would be very significant for a smaller game and developer trying to build a name. Second, while a good review might not ensure great sales, a bad review, especially for an unknown game and developer, could be a death knell. Any reviewer who reviews small little known indie games has a disproportionate influence over the small audience likely to buy such a game. Big publication don't cater to that audience. Finally, smaller games get very few reviews. For example, Quinn's Depression Quest only has a single review on Metacritic. Manipulating the opinion of even a single reviewer or commenter would be highly advantageous to someone trying to promote a small game.

My point was that if Zoe Quinn really slept specifically for exposure or influence, she wouldn't have pick up a game journalist but people with better positions in the industry. All I was saying is that she probably slept with the guy because she liked him.

 

[TheWatcher]

I don't care about Zoe Quinn or Gamergate. I care about exposing parasitic games 'journalists' that attempt to bully or pressure developers into changing their vision. I also despise the relationships many of these so-called 'journalists' have with developers and publishers (giving out great reviews in exchange for trinkets or trips). Video Game journalism has been going downhill since the early 2000s, and it has accelerated its downward spiral since the Kane and Lynch debacle with Gurtsmann. I doubt current games journalists even fully play through the games they review.

 

[CatLady]

I always had a problem with Sarkeesian specifically. Is she talking for all women ? Because we I read her stuff it seems that everything is offensive.

Because my wife and some close female friends weren't offended when I played the Core Design TR games and was revoicing Lara when she was saying "HAAAA" everytime she picked up a medkit or because I was telling my girlfriend at that time that Lara was a cutie in her shorts. My GF understood tacitly that I was joking and that it was a fantasy she also knew that I wouldn't ask her to go to work in tight shorts because I played Tomb Raider because she knew that I wasn't a crazy person.

My wife has a crush on Chris Hemsworth but I know tacitly that she doesn't need me to go hit the gym 4 hours a day. It's a fantasy. As a guy, if Lara is a fantasy woman for me, that doesn't mean that I disrespect women and the fact that my wife has the hots for Chris isn't a sign of disrespect for men either. It's a healthy thing in a marriage to be able to laugh about those things plus you can make great jokes ("honey quick there's Chris shirtless on TV !" but then she comes running and it's a random guy ).

When things started to be so complicated ?

Anita & articles like these absolutely do not speak for me, in fact I find them demeaning & degrading to women as if we melt & fall apart if someone says something mean online.

If you talk smack at me I will find a way to kick your ass.