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Polygon is Literally the Worst

Black and white morality stories? That's fine if you're 15. I think most of us are past that. There's certainly games where black n white storyline would be a good fit, but for most games it's just not.
Fuck Polygon.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Or....or.......and I know it sounds super crazy but hear me out...........just let developers tell the story they want to tell?...

tenor.gif
 

H . R . 2

Member
I don't care for polygon either but in this sense I agree. I'd like more games, not all, but more, like this. The strong hero that is fighting for the clearly right thing and the pure evil bad guy. Is it simple? Sure, but nothing wrong with that.
sure, if it's not at the cost of depriving others of complex and mature storytelling
 

Gandih42

Member
I can subscribe to the idea that not all games need be 'morally grey'. But it seems a bit ludicrous to claim that games in general needs to return to being black and white. There are plenty of games that are black and white and make little effort to blend good and evil. But it'd be a bit boring if all games were this way.

Also I really disagree with the idea that telling morally grey stories validates stuff like racism, sexism or other things any normal person knows is bad. I'd say the opposite. Real life is morally grey, and I think the way to improve as a person is to acknowledge this. People who do bad things are people too. And good people can also do bad things.

I can imagine you'd feel an overweight of morally grey stories if you play games that aim for realistic graphics, worlds, and characters, because in those styles of games a black and white story might be more jarring. But there's plenty of games you could play with simple good vs. evil stories you can enjoy, without having to have your views and morality challenged. That's what is awesome about the current state of gaming, in my opinion. There's literally something for everyone.
 

PapyDoc

Member
sure, if it's not at the cost of depriving others of complex and mature storytelling
You can have mature storytelling with a very Manicheism storyline. But you have to be extreme in both side.
When you know what they think, that's suits them well.
 
I didn't know because the OP didn't provide me with any reason as to why I should. At least quote some of the notable bits. Making decent threads isn't rocket science.

The article is an example of them being terrible, I'm not trying to entice anyone to read it. I made the thread because no one else did and wasn't sure where to put it, I'm not sure how elegant an OP a clickbait article like this deserves. At some point your investment in posting about how I didn't make a good enough OP is going to outpace the time it'd take to simply click the link and read the article, though.
 

Melubas

Member
I don't want to read it since I'm afraid of TLOU2 spoilers, but with that said: no. We need more games with gray morality systems like The Witcher games. Real Life is like that, I see no reason that games shouldn't try to emulate it. Plus it is way more interesting having to weigh options against each other rather than just having "Give cake and happiness" vs "Kill Babies".
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Seems to me what they are really after is games to be all propaganda for the "common good". Real Moral Majority shit.
 

Redlancet

Banned
This country hates writers with a passion. So funny.

America loves -- cops, superheroes, bosses, queens, king, soldiers, heroes, hosts, auteurs, stars.

America hates -- writers, workers, teachers, parents, social workers, therapists, caregivers, waiters.


What a country!
Nah we just hate narcisist idiots
 

Saruhashi

Banned
Eh, I disagree with the article entirely but I don't know why people get so riled by things like this. I think culture criticism should have hot takes and weirdness, it's all part of it. I don't know why we act like it's supposed to be consumer reports.

So it's OK to have criticism and hot takes and you understand that perfectly as "all part of it"?
Yet, somehow, you respond with "I don't know why" when people have criticism of the criticism or hot takes on the hot takes?

Kind of sick of seeing that attitude to be honest.

Polygon comes up with a hot take.
People are passionate about the medium and passionate about opinions on the medium, since they have signed up for a videogame forum.
So those passionate people like to comment on the opinions of paid "journalists".
Then you have people like yourself coming along "eeeeeeh I don't know why you get so riled up".

What a load of bullshit.

"I think culture criticism should have hot takes and weirdness, it's all part of it."

Great so you won't mind if we have some criticism or hot takes of our own then, yeah?
Oh. No. Apparently you "don't know why" anyone would want to do THAT.
 

Honey Bunny

Member
This country hates writers with a passion. So funny.

America loves -- cops, superheroes, bosses, queens, king, soldiers, heroes, hosts, auteurs, stars.

America hates -- writers, workers, teachers, parents, social workers, therapists, caregivers, waiters.


What a country!

Put 'girl' in front of everything you've listed on the top line and the woke left love them too.
 
Last edited:

Saruhashi

Banned

Archive link for those who don't want Polygon to profit off your clicks... http://archive.vn/L0OV2

There are a number of things that really boil my piss here and I am going to get into them.
If that's OK with you SF Kosmo SF Kosmo ?

Straight off the bat I wish these fuckheads would stop referring to "Games" as if it's some kind of monolith and every game on every console is somehow subjected to the same standards. You are talking about STORYTELLING. Many games are not intended to be a deep story experience and some games really just use story as window dressing for their mechanics and gameplay. If you're too lazy to even set this out to begin with then what's the point in even proceeding with the rest?

Next is this "games NEED to blah blah blah".
What an unbelievably self-important arrogant stance to take from the beginning.
No. "Games" do not "need" to do anything.
There is so much scope in this medium that literally anyone can now come up with an idea for a game and create it.
Small teams have made some of the best games of recent times.
Shit, there are top tier experiences that were made by one or two people.

You could say "I wish that Game A had done X, Y or Z instead of what they did do" and that's fine but to just proclaim that "games need to do X" is just so fucking preachy and arrogant and I goddamn hate that they present this as if they are some kind of authority.

Sick of seeing BioShock Infinite constantly wheeled out for a thorough lashing because it committed the awful crime of pointing out that sometimes people who are fighting for a good cause on the surface are behaving in horrendous and unethical ways. Interesting as BioShock Infinite was an average 94/100 from critics on release. Seems like it has become a target since then because the game holds a mirror up to people who maybe don't want to see their own refelction. So let's smash the mirror? No! Self-reflect. If games need to be open to criticism then maybe people need to be open to criticism themselves. No deciding "I'm right no matter what and my critics are just evil."

The whole thing against "civility" is just pitiful.
Listen, it's good to be against Racism etc. Don't be Racist. It hurts people and dehumanizes people and they are probably really good people with feelings etc so show some damn empathy and don't be Racist. OK? OK. Now, here is the mind bender. If you are hurting innocent people yourself in order to somehow prove you are super not Racist then you are not a good person. So like if you burned down some old guys family business and destroyed his livelihood because you were protesting Racism then unfortunately the cost of being "not Racist" was becoming a terrible fucking person.
Maybe if that's happening, or if groups you associate with are being accused of such, then maybe it's time to stop and reflect.

In fact, this is probably why "gray" stories are better because they remind us of a shared humanity and don't allow us to say "yeah you burned a city to the ground but it was for a good cause so we are all good".

The more we, people, have access to information and history and the more we interact with different cultures the less useful "black and white" stories become as it's seldom a straight forward case of "we are right and they are wrong" and even when it is you do not get a free pass to do anything you want when you hold the "I am right" card. There has to be some accountability. There has to be some application of morality to the actions performed in service of the greater good.

Why would games that put forward the idea that "in the process of doing good you need to be careful that you don't become evil yourself or lose your humanity" bother these folks so much?

I really, really, wonder why?

Why would they want to push the idea that there needs to be more games with objectively "right" and "wrong" with no room for, oh, let's call them "centrists"?

Why do we need to hit the gamers over the head with the idea that there is no room for the "both sides" argument?

"Consider the media’s fixation on telling inspiring rags-to-riches tales of billionaires and triple-A studios, even in the face of discomforting details about profiting from underpaid and oppressive labor practices."

Ah...

"Defense of the police and their violence appeals to our familiarity with the paradigms of gray in many stories about moral ambiguity, as well."

Ok...

"What’s also perfidious is the implication in gray stories that “goodness” is just a hair’s difference away from “badness,” when it’s a perspective steeped in privilege: The oppressor is as multifaceted as the oppressed, and the hero as capable of evil-doings as the villain."

I think I'm getting it...

"Video games love to blend the good and the bad themselves until they become a gray goo, eventually and sometimes relentlessly symbolically arguing that all lives matter."

Uh-huh. Now drive the message home...

"We see this in modern politics all the time. Politicians who take away healthcare are just doing their jobs, while those protesting against them for making medication unaffordable are framed as uncivil and dangerous. It’s disingenuous to claim that both sides are equally at fault; one group is championing civil rights or access to healthcare while the other is looking out for their own interests."

There it is. There it fucking is.

So basically this is a political essay dressed up as "commentary" on the state of videogames.

The writer doesn't understand games. Doesn't mind mistaking "games" for "storytelling" and doesn't mind using a few cherry-picked examples out of the thousands of games out there to make the point.

That's OK though because this isn't about games at all.

It's about these little twerps being unable to handle nuanced discussion, disagreement, and the possibility that they might need to face up to the fact that while trying to do the right thing they were actually acting like complete arseholes.

Would have been better to just title the article "I Hate The Both Sides Argument And Media Needs To Stop Encouraging People To See That Sometimes Both Sides Of A Conflict Can Be Bad People".

Not as catchy but much more accurate.

Oh, just one more thing.

Videogames are accused of "sometimes relentlessly symbolically arguing that all lives matter".

Now, I can agree that SOME people responding to "black lives matter" with "all lives matter" are being rather silly and not understanding the basic concept that social movements tend to focus on a specific social issue or they become unfocused and ineffective. So if a group of people are concerned about the treatment of black people in the USA and specifically with regards to policing then they should go ahead and do their best to express that. "Black Lives Matter" as a statement is perfectly fine and does not need to be responded to with "All Lives Matter".

HOWEVER. This does not change the fact that all lives matter. This does not mean that some lives do not matter.
We should be careful to not say "well it's OK to kill some people" even if it is necessary is some very extreme circumstances.
If my neighbor decides they hate non-binary people I don't automatically go to "his life is forfeit".

Yet we come dangerously close to it here. "Games are symbolically arguing that all lives matter". Well, yes. I mean. Yes.
I think this is a nice thing for games to argue. Symbolically or otherwise.

You'd think Polygon would land more on that side of things actually.
With so many violent games allowing us to kill multiple enemies in photo-realistic ways you'd think a game that says "hey maybe all lives matter" would be most welcome.

Apparently not. Just gotta be sure you are killing the right people, I guess.

Rant Over. :)
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
So it's OK to have criticism and hot takes and you understand that perfectly as "all part of it"?
Yet, somehow, you respond with "I don't know why" when people have criticism of the criticism or hot takes on the hot takes?
Not at all, but that's not really what most people are doing either. It's usually more a lot of broad groaning about the gall of someone to even try or "keep politics out of it" (even though I don't think this one is remotely political). Efforts to frame this as waging some kind of culture war on them. That stuff just feels ridiculous in the context of a pretty banal thinkpiece about narrative.
 

Boopster

Banned
Damn Polygon!

How dare they...

*checks notes*

....write a reasonable article that reflects what a lot of RPG players have been talking about for the last ten years!

Or....or.......and I know it sounds super crazy but hear me out...........just let developers tell the story they want to tell?...

tenor.gif

Consume product, ask no questions. Never criticize, just buy.

(unless it's one of those ess jay dubbayew games, those need to be censored and cracked down on. SMH.)
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
I didn't know because the OP didn't provide me with any reason as to why I should. At least quote some of the notable bits. Making decent threads isn't rocket science.

Neither is using critical thinking and reading the bloody title of the article.

Damn Polygon!

How dare they...

*checks notes*

....write a reasonable article that reflects what a lot of RPG players have been talking about for the last ten years!



Consume product, ask no questions. Never criticize, just buy.

(unless it's one of those ess jay dubbayew games, those need to be censored and cracked down on. SMH.)

Neo member, immediately posts political bait, instigates, and tries to defend polygon, mocks those who are critical against SJW mind-virus - are you sure you shouldn't be over at the other place, mate?
 
Damn Polygon!

How dare they...

*checks notes*

....write a reasonable article that reflects what a lot of RPG players have been talking about for the last ten years!



Consume product, ask no questions. Never criticize, just buy.

(unless it's one of those ess jay dubbayew games, those need to be censored and cracked down on. SMH.)

Ah yes, RPG fans love black/white morality that's simplistic and lacking nuance, their favorite thing! Must be why so many prefer New Vegas to Fallout 3 for instance... in Fallout 3 you have deep moral choices like BLOW UP A TOWN FULL OF INNOCENT PEOPLE or... DON'T... and in New Vegas you have to figure out the nuances and dynamics of various factions vying for power over an entire area and none are perfect. True RPG gamers have been bemoaning the lack of nuance to Fallout 3 as a proof of New Vegas' supremacy but here comes whoever the fuck you are to tell us RPG gamers PREFER simple good vs evil plots? What's the point of it being an RPG, then?
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
Ah yes, RPG fans love black/white morality that's simplistic and lacking nuance, their favorite thing! Must be why so many prefer New Vegas to Fallout 3 for instance... in Fallout 3 you have deep moral choices like BLOW UP A TOWN FULL OF INNOCENT PEOPLE or... DON'T... and in New Vegas you have to figure out the nuances and dynamics of various factions vying for power over an entire area and none are perfect. True RPG gamers have been bemoaning the lack of nuance to Fallout 3 as a proof of New Vegas' supremacy but here comes whoever the fuck you are to tell us RPG gamers PREFER simple good vs evil plots? What's the point of it being an RPG, then?

Some of the most lauded RPG/JRPG narratives of all time are ones that don't use black/white narrative. Trails of... franchise, a number of the most beloved Final Fantasy games (IV, IX, XII, XIV, etc), Planescape: Torment, Final Fantasy Tactics, Radiant Historia, Ultima, etc - just to name a *few*.

Seriously, who is this goof who can say with a straight face that black/white mentality is *good* in ANY kind of writing? Even the greatest kid's stories don't do this shit. Lorax? Mary Poppins? Like, c'mon mate.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Consume product, ask no questions. Never criticize, just buy.
Feel free to dislike and even criticize but I don't like the idea of fans telling developers how they should tell their own story. I never not ever want to see someone telling Yoko Taro how he should tell stories in his own game.
 

NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
English is not my first language, but I’m confident I couldn’t write the article so badly if you paid me to. That passage mentioning Metroid is abysmal.

This is just laughable. Modern gaming, heralded by the PlayStation console family, was born out of the desire to get over manichean characters and stories and bring games’ narrative to a more mature level. Opening the article with the obvious picture of Ellie really does make you think that the article’s original title was My cute teen lesbian can’t possibly be this morally rotten or something like that.
 
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