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[Azih]

Won't the Pope saying this resonate quite heavily with a good chunk of Republican voters? This could end up being quite significant.

Not the Protestants.

A lot of Catholics in the States seem to believe in Supply-side Jesus rather than what Pope Francis believes in.

In any case people twist their religious faith to conform with already held beliefs from other areas in their life. The cognitive dissonance that results from this on occassion is just another way in which we are an incredibly weird species.

 

[womfalcs3]

What exactly is your issue here?

We have lower cost gasoline (for transport) and gas (for electricity) that can store a lot of energy in a small volume/quantity. Why would we expect it not to win against higher cost alternatives?

It's nice to be so adamant against fossil fuels, but the world is behaving as it should.

Fossil fuels will be around for many decades.

 

[Mael]

That's cute. An old man ignorant about energy markets and physical sciences wants to say something.

This thread is about Pope Francis, not Donald Trump.

 

[thefro]

Added this to the OP, but there's lots of really good stuff in here.

I'm only about a quarter of the way through reading the whole thing since I'm juggling doing some other stuff.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...8959f32_story.html?postshare=3381434628888596

VATICAN CITY — He warns of “synthetic agrotoxins” harming birds and insects and “bioaccumulation” from industrial waste. He calls for renewable fuel subsidies and “maximum energy efficiency.” And although he offers prayers at the beginning and end of his heavily anticipated missive on the environment, Pope Francis unmasks himself not only as a very green pontiff, but also as a total policy wonk.

In the 192-page paper released Thursday, Francis lays out the argument for a new partnership between science and religion to combat human-driven climate change — a position bringing him immediately into conflict with skeptics, whom he chides for their “denial.”

Francis urges taking public transit, carpooling, planting trees, turning off unnecessary lights, recycling — and boycotting certain products. He called for an “ecological conversion” for the faithful.

“It must be said that some committed and prayerful Christians, with the excuse of realism and pragmatism, tend to ridicule expressions of concern for the environment,” he writes.

“He is giving us a moral legitimacy to continue campaigning,” said a jubilant Giuseppe Onufrio, executive director of Greepeace in Italy who was set to join a June 28 march in St. Peter’s Square in support of the pope’s environmental stance. “Climate change is now an issue of social justice.”

In the document, Francis linked global warming to the overarching theme of his papacy — fighting inequality and global poverty. “The earth, our home, is beginning to look more and more like an immense pile of filth,” Francis wrote, blaming a toxic cocktail of overconsumption, consumerism, dependence on fossil fuels and the errant indifference of the powerful and wealthy. He described a hell on Earth should nothing be done, one filled with more methane and carbon dioxide, acidification of oceans and the crippling of the global food supply.

 

[reggieandTFE]

We have lower cost gasoline (for transport) and gas (for electricity) that can store a lot of energy in a small volume/quantity. Why would we expect it not to win against higher cost alternatives?

It's nice to be so adamant against fossil fuels, but the world is behaving as it should.

Fossil fuels will be around for many decades.

It's only a lower "cost" when you don't consider the external cost of destroying our fucking planet. God damn, it's cute that some idiot who read 20 pages of an Ayn Rand book thinks he knows what he's talking about.

 

[womfalcs3]

It's only a lower "cost" when you don't consider the external cost of destroying our fucking planet. God damn, it's cute that some idiot who read 20 pages of an Ayn Rand book thinks he knows what he's talking about.

And you know the cost of those externalities? Global warming is not even the costliest environmental problem. Id rather see fossil fuels burned to help impoverished countries produce and sell goods for economic growth than worry about costs of global warming.

 

[teruterubozu]

And you know the cost of those externalities? Global warming is not even the costliest environmental problem. Id rather see fossil fuels burned to help impoverished countries produce and sell goods for economic growth than worry about costs of global warming.

Impoverished countries can barely afford fuel. We have the cheapest gas here in the US for a reason - we spend crazy amounts of money to secure it.

 

[sphagnum]

It will be fun to see how my aunt reacts to this.

 

[womfalcs3]

Impoverished countries can barely afford fuel. We have the cheapest gas here in the US for a reason - we spend crazy amounts of money to secure it.

Fossil fuels are still more accessible and lower cost to them than the alternative. There are economic and physical reasons why fossil fuels win. Even with renewables part of or power mix, you still need base load and gas-fired backup capacities, for example; for physical reasons.

 

[Azih]

And you know the cost of those externalities? Global warming is not even the costliest environmental problem. Id rather see fossil fuels burned to help impoverished countries produce and sell goods for economic growth than worry about costs of global warming.

Tell that to the people of the Maldives.

 

[Irnbru]

And you know the cost of those externalities? Global warming is not even the costliest environmental problem. Id rather see fossil fuels burned to help impoverished countries produce and sell goods for economic growth than worry about costs of global warming.

You do know the pope was a chemist right? Not that it would change your argument either way. See, you're too short sighted, like most people in the world. Yes, it's not the costliest now, but it slowly is becoming as such. I'd rather see impoverished nations be built from the ground up without the need of fossil fuels.. Imagine that! You're so short sighted that your willing to end the world over economic growth.

 

[teruterubozu]

Well that's the basic conservative argument - anti-oil = anti-capitalist.

 

[Foffy]

It's only a lower "cost" when you don't consider the external cost of destroying our fucking planet. God damn, it's cute that some idiot who read 20 pages of an Ayn Rand book thinks he knows what he's talking about.

It's all about that short term want over long term sustainability mindset, bro.

 

[tfur]

We have lower cost gasoline (for transport) and gas (for electricity) that can store a lot of energy in a small volume/quantity. Why would we expect it not to win against higher cost alternatives?

It's nice to be so adamant against fossil fuels, but the world is behaving as it should.

Fossil fuels will be around for many decades.

You can replace decades with centuries. The only change will be market share of usage, and more importantly, better methods of cleaning usage of petroleum based fuels.

 

[massoluk]

It's perfect that the "Well, Pope isn't scientist" doesn't really work all that well with his master degree in Chemistry.

edit: uh technician's degree in chemistry

 

[Alric]

Hehe, Jeb Bush saying the pope should keep religion out of politics gives me giggles.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Good.

Thanks Francis.

 

[MikeyB]

You can replace decades with centuries. The only change will be market share of usage, and more importantly, better methods of cleaning usage of petroleum based fuels.

Might be true if we could continue with markets operating normally, but I think that's a pretty sketchy assumption. Agriculture relies on predictable seasons and those are going away quickly. The food supply system is going to be fucked within the next 50 years.

See California. Or the ocean. The oceans are already acidic enough that shellfish farms are running into issues because the little bastards aren't forming shells as well as they used to.

 

[Hari Seldon]

This is all good stuff from Francis. He seems to be correctly blaming consumerist culture which is what seems to be driving the willful ignorance regarding climate change. I can't imagine this is going to go over well with the corporate overlords, but at least there is one world leader who is not beholden to them.

 

[thefro]

This part is especially awesome (from page 109)

Finance overwhelms the real economy. The lessons of the global financial crisis have not been assimilated, and we are learning all too slowly the lessons of environmental deterioration. Some circles maintain that current economics and technology will solve all environmental problems, and argue, in popular and non-technical terms, that the problems of global hunger and poverty will be resolved simply by market growth. They are less concerned with certain economic theories which today scarcely anybody dares defend, than with their actual operation in the functioning of the economy. They may not affirm such theories with words, but nonetheless support them with their deeds by showing no interest in more balanced levels of production, a better distribution of wealth, concern for the environment and the rights of future generations. Their behaviour shows that for them maximizing profits is enough. Yet by itself the market cannot guarantee integral human development and social inclusion.[89] At the same time, we have “a sort of ‘superdevelopment’ of a wasteful and consumerist kind which forms an unacceptable contrast with the ongoing situations of dehumanizing deprivation”,[90] while we are all too slow in developing economic institutions and social initiatives which can give the poor regular access to basic resources.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

As a non catholic I'm pretty firm in the belief that Pope Francis = Best Pope. How does Catholic GAF feel about him?

Best Pope. Of course, he could be better, but I hope he sets a precedent for more liberal popes in the future. I want female priests and priests being able to marry.

 

[Foffy]

Might be true if we could continue with markets operating normally, but I think that's a pretty sketchy assumption. Agriculture relies on predictable seasons and those are going away quickly. The food supply system is going to be fucked within the next 50 years.

See California. Or the ocean. The oceans are already acidic enough that shellfish farms are running into issues because the little bastards aren't forming shells as well as they used to.

B-but my economy! My social structure just HAS to work over the world! Compatability be fucked.

 

[BotoxAgent]

It's only a lower "cost" when you don't consider the external cost of destroying our fucking planet. God damn, it's cute that some idiot who read 20 pages of an Ayn Rand book thinks he knows what he's talking about.

exactly what i was thinking

seriously, sometimes I just can't anymore

 

[Fenderputty]

I like how climate change deniers are saying that the Pope should just stick to theology not realizing he's a Jesuit who's mastered in chemistry.

 

[Foffy]

I like how climate change deniers are saying that the Pope should just stick to theology not realizing he's a Jesuit who's mastered in chemistry.

It's not just them, but those who think our status quo is sustainable, let alone acceptable. There's some overlap.

 

[guek]

Best Pope stays winning. Not a perfect Pope but I still like the guy

 

[Fenderputty]

It's not just them, but those who think our status quo is sustainable, let alone acceptable. There's some overlap.

Right, I'm just saying one of the arguments I've heard against his statements related to him leaving the science stuff to sciency people.

I think most people have no clue what a Jesuit is.

 

[M3d10n]

I think the issue is beyond climate change: it's the widespread disregard for sustainability that comes from the outdated view that the world is so large we'll never run out of the stuff we take from it and there will always be room for the stuff we dump on it.

Until very recently mankind operated as a family with a bank account with unlimited funds and a bottomless trashcan. Now the number of zeroes in the account has reduced enough we can count them and the trash can is starting to smell bad.

The whole situation with water shows how clueless we are. Water is nearly indestructible. The water you drink, bath with, wash your car with isn't destroyed, it just goes elsewhere. I remember being taught about the "cycle of water" back in grade school. However, mankind at large never paid much attention to how much water goes out from their city and how much goes back into the reservoirs it draws water from. I think this is the first time I've seen people actually talking about aquifers on TV news as something that can actually run out and need to be replenished, instead of magical infinite water that comes from underground.

Well, biofuels certainly won't be replacing fossil fuels anytime soon if ever. I think our only viable options at this point are with hydrogen fuel cells and electric vehicles. I'm glad the Pope feels this way, but he is just one of many voices that have been saying this for years.

Why not? In Brazil nearly all cars can accept either biofuel and gas (pure or mixed), you can use only biofuel if you want to and it has been that way for several decades now. They even have several artificial restrictions put on the biofuels to keep oil competitive.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

We have lower cost gasoline (for transport) and gas (for electricity) that can store a lot of energy in a small volume/quantity. Why would we expect it not to win against higher cost alternatives?

It's nice to be so adamant against fossil fuels, but the world is behaving as it should.

Fossil fuels will be around for many decades.

The market is not efficiently serving the needs of the people and planet.
This is why leading governments must act.

 

[wildfire]

I like how climate change deniers are saying that the Pope should just stick to theology not realizing he's a Jesuit who's mastered in chemistry.

It's not just them, but those who think our status quo is sustainable, let alone acceptable. There's some overlap.

On top of that we have smug pricks who think they are more educated than the pope merely because he's a religious leader so his education clearly must only be based on scripture. *rolls eyes*

 

[CadetMahoney]

Catholics don't take a literal interpretation of the creation myth.

The Church has never confirmed the story of creation, adam and eve etc. should be taken as mere allegories or a "myth". History points to the opposite.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136324765#post136324765

 

[Foffy]

On top of that we have smug pricks who think they are more educated than the pope merely because he's a religious leader so his education clearly must only be based on scripture. *rolls eyes*

True. Granted, the Pope is wrong on the ego/self/soul thing, but what he talks about here - climate change - has nothing to do with that. Maybe one can entertain that organisms go with an environment, but that never fails to address the real ghost in the mental machine.

People will take his theological views and claim he's full of shit on matters beyond that domain outright. One ends up attacking the character, not the points. "He believes in the O.G., ergo he's full of shit!" has no place when he's talking in a domain where we can actually verify and prove his concerns regarding the biosphere.

 

[Sirpopopop]

More and more Republican Catholics will just become evangelical christians.

They'll find a religious ideology that corresponds to their political beliefs.

 

[RumblingRosco]

Why not? In Brazil nearly all cars can accept either biofuel and gas (pure or mixed), you can use only biofuel if you want to and it has been that way for several decades now. They even have several artificial restrictions put on the biofuels to keep oil competitive.

There most likely isn't enough arable land (and water) to supply enough crops to meet food demands and fuel demands - not without some significant and unknown breakthrough.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Best Pope

 

[Raistlin]

Well this is going to confuse the fuck out of conservative voters lol



Also, Jeb just lost the hardcore Catholic vote outright. Sorry, but you can't just call out the Pope as being wrong like that. Not gonna fly.

 

[shadyspace]

Well this is going to confuse the fuck out of conservative voters lol



Also, Jeb just lost the evangelical vote outright. Sorry, but you can't just call out the Pope as being wrong like that. Not gonna fly.

This is all nonsense.

 

[Codeacious]

Wow, this could really cause some problems later for the GOP if this conversation continues. Being a born 'n' raised Texas Catholic (though I've never been a Republican voter), I could see this swinging opinions around. Though knowing political America, this could totally fade away in a couple months and not end up having any effect on the election (Jeb's probably already damaged himself for the primaries, though).

More and more Republican Catholics will just become evangelical christians.

They'll find a religious ideology that corresponds to their political beliefs.

Out of all the Christian denominations I've encountered and interacted with, I'd say Catholics are some of the most rooted and stubborn in their ideals (ever seen a Baptist and a Catholic argue about Mary?). The Pope, the leader of the church, is a pretty core idea that has its roots in the Bible. If this does start to happen, I don't see it being very widespread unless some other sort of major movement happens to support it.

 

[Aureon]

The Church has never confirmed the story of creation, adam and eve etc. should be taken as mere allegories or a "myth". History points to the opposite.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136324765#post136324765

I live in Rome.
The seat of the Pope is literally within walking distance from my home. I could see st peter's rise from the window of my school.
My grandfather was a protestant pastor, and nigh all my family who's older than 30, and we're a BIG family, has attended catholic schools and religious studies of some type.

I have never, never, never met a creationist. Never in my life. Not even nine year olds.
I know people who every time we pass a church, they stop and kiss the crucifix they hold at the neck. Most of them don't even think there's anybody on the goddamn planet who takes creationism seriously.

I don't like religion in general, and Catholicism in particular. But creationists, they are not.

 

[tfur]

There most likely isn't enough arable land (and water) to supply enough crops to meet food demands and fuel demands - not without some significant and unknown breakthrough.

Well, there is that, and also the fact that ethanol also produces carbon waste as well.

The Energy return on investment (EROI) is just not good for biofuel production. Besides the extreme amount of land needed, there is also pesticides, fertilizers and production cost, just to get it to a usable form.

It is good to use all forms of technology for energy production, but petroleum based methods are not going to disappear. There is no snap in replacement for store-able, portable, ship-able, plentiful fossil fuels.

Like I said before, it is the waste collection technology that needs to make a breakthrough. Carbon waste products need to captured.

Even after we come up with a portable, ship-able, share-able cheap "power cube", we will still need fossil fuel for various forms of industry.

 

[nailbombxx]

Doin' God's work.

 

[AstroNut325]

And you know the cost of those externalities? Global warming is not even the costliest environmental problem. Id rather see fossil fuels burned to help impoverished countries produce and sell goods for economic growth than worry about costs of global warming.

This mentality might mean human extinction. There are consequences for the growth and development.

 

[womfalcs3]

The market is not efficiently serving the needs of the people and planet.
This is why leading governments must act.

If the markets weren't regulated with taxation, gasoline and diesel would be even less expensive. So even with taxes making them more costly, they're still less expensive than alternatives.

Now add to that hard-to-beat energy density suitable for mobility.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I have never, never, never met a creationist.

That's not the point I'm making, I am not saying Catholics are die hard creationists. Saying Catholics think bible stories are "myths" is incorrect and the Church certainly hasn't said anything to that effect. I have already pointed to the official stance.

 

[Raistlin]

This is all nonsense.

how so?


For however many fundamentalist and hardcore Catholics there are actually in the US, going against the Pope in this way is an obvious death blow. His word is the word of God.

 

[AuthenticM]

If this can have any influence at all: great !

 

[Punchy4486]

how so?


For however many fundamentalist and hardcore Catholics there are actually in the US, going against the Pope in this way is an obvious death blow. His word is the word of God.

You haven't been paying attention. Republican politicians have managed to convince their mostly-Catholic base that the Pope is wrong and their views are the Christian views.

They've been telling him to shut up since he started speaking out over a year ago.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/republicans-respond-to-the-pope/?_r=0

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/17/jeb-bush-joins-republican-backlash-pope-climate-change

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/santorum-pope-francis-leave-science-the-scientists

 

[Veitsev]

That's not the point I'm making, I am not saying Catholics are die hard creationists. Saying Catholics think bible stories are "myths" is incorrect and the Church certainly hasn't said anything to that effect. I have already pointed to the official stance.

That is not what that post said.

 

[machemachete]

Oil companies with all dat money will do the imposible to slow the pace of alternative energy research :/

Now I just wonder if one day we can get a pope to release a LGBT encyclical in which he takes the scientific position and shows compassion, and doesn't require people to abandon a huge essence of themselves just to be right with God.

You don't need to push an agenda in this discussion or try to derail.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Its cool that he thinks this way, but oil companies will do all they can to delay the transition and Republicans will be there to back them up.

Republicans don't run the world. What will work for others will be adopted in the US, period.