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PS5 vs Xbox Series X ‘Secret Sauce’ – SSD Speed And Velocity Architecture

Except that once devs hit that magic 10gig on that xsx that that would hit a ceiling then theres gonna be sacrifices to be made otherwise they would have to reduce its bus speed which would be lower then sonys. Theres noway it would have 13gig for games unless u can magically speed up the lower bus. Other then that its difficult to say. Id wait to the games come out and wait futher down the line

Or they could just learn to be better programmers? Honestly it's nowhere near the level of challenge true split memory pools have offered on previous systems and those were dealt with even if it meant compromises. Sure it may sound arrogant to say "the devs just need to be better", but honestly just picture any developer complaining about the "split" bandwidth pool in XSX like it's the end of the world. I'd have to question their skills as a dev if they could not come to terms with it.

Especially considering there are hardware features in place that can assist with reducing the memory footprint (and thus freeing up more physical memory), being smart with what data goes into which bandwidth pool, swapping the data strategically along the bandwidth pools, etc.

So yes, it's a particular quirk to XSX's design but nowhere near being an issue some folks are making it out to be.

Mar 19, 2020

Wow, I didn't know I made yesterday's post a full month ago. Dat quantum time travel wormhole experiment I've got running in my back shed must've worked after all. Time to call up Elon Musk baby!!

Okay, jokes aside, I think it's kind of obvious you're getting your wires crossed. It's like you're arguing just to be arguing now, and have some personal issue with my POV on things. Fine, whatever. But nothing you're talking about anymore is really adding much to the original discussion.

The SSDs still draw power; and Sony's will draw more since it has more speed and more NAND modules. The variable frequency adjusts power loads that result in frequency reductions. If I ever stated the reduction could potentially come from heat-related buildup, I misspoke. It happens every once in a while.

You seem to be under the impression Mark Cerny is a god among men or at least among engineers, and his approach the only one that can achieve the goals set out to be accomplished. Well, that is a nice fantasy, but I live in reality. And that means regardless how great Cerny is at what he does (and he IS fantastic at what he does, let's make that clear)...he is not the only one of his caliber in this game and his approaches are not the exclusive domain in accomplishing particular challenges. We can look at existing solutions between PS and Xbox right now for things such as BC, data compression etc. to see this: there are multiple ways to tackle a problem and often times they are all pretty similar in the effectiveness those problems can be resolved. I may have respect for Cerny, but I'm not going to worship him or dedicate a shrine to the guy, either.

At this point I think I can deduce you're set in your ways on how you view these systems and even myself; think what you will but I know where my balance stands when it comes to PS5 and XSX; safe to say if I hate extremes in politics and fandoms I would at least make sure to avoid doing that myself in this particular regard. But I can't help your personal perception on it. I'm just here to give my perspectives on next-gen, as are you.

Prepare to be amazed!



Behold the hidden GPU in the SSD slot




NGL this is kind of interesting but not something the next-gen consoles will be needing....

...unless things get to a point where a decently capable GPU chip can fit on one of these and be cheap enough to serve as an expansion card ala Saturn 4MB RAM cartridge, but more in function like SNES Super FX chip and MegaDrive SVP chip in practice.

..Kinda actually want that to happen, but dunno if the systems are future-proofed for it. At least it'd cut down on needing a full mid-gen refresh.
 
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onQ123

Member
NGL this is kind of interesting but not something the next-gen consoles will be needing....

...unless things get to a point where a decently capable GPU chip can fit on one of these and be cheap enough to serve as an expansion card ala Saturn 4MB RAM cartridge, but more in function like SNES Super FX chip and MegaDrive SVP chip in practice.

..Kinda actually want that to happen, but dunno if the systems are future-proofed for it. At least it'd cut down on needing a full mid-gen refresh.

Just got off of Zoom with Cerny no SSDs will be allowed in PS5 without at least 2TFLOPs of GPU power.


 

semicool

Banned
Just got off of Zoom with Cerny no SSDs will be allowed in PS5 without at least 2TFLOPs of GPU power.


I broke through Zoom security
and listened in on your call, Cerny admitted to overhyping and overselling the PS5 SSD in his presentation, discussions etc...Should have used something more secure than Zoom, now the word is out. I bet there'll be a denial about all this.
 
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onQ123

Member
I broke through Zoom security
and listened in on your call, Cerny admitted to overhyping and overselling the PS5 SSD in his presentation, discussions etc...Should have used something more secure than Zoom, now the word is out. I bet there'll be a denial about all this.

Yeah giving the specs of the PS5 SSD is totally over hyping things good thing we have people who don't know anything about console engineering to cool things off & tell everyone that moving data throughout the system fast isn't going to help the system at all.
 

DForce

Member
Wow, I didn't know I made yesterday's post a full month ago. Dat quantum time travel wormhole experiment I've got running in my back shed must've worked after all. Time to call up Elon Musk baby!!


You accused me of lying, but there you were doing exactly what I said people were doing. If you're going to call me out, just make sure you weren't the ones doing those things.

Okay, jokes aside, I think it's kind of obvious you're getting your wires crossed. It's like you're arguing just to be arguing now, and have some personal issue with my POV on things. Fine, whatever. But nothing you're talking about anymore is really adding much to the original discussion.

The SSDs still draw power; and Sony's will draw more since it has more speed and more NAND modules. The variable frequency adjusts power loads that result in frequency reductions. If I ever stated the reduction could potentially come from heat-related buildup, I misspoke. It happens every once in a while.

You seem to be under the impression Mark Cerny is a god among men or at least among engineers, and his approach the only one that can achieve the goals set out to be accomplished. Well, that is a nice fantasy, but I live in reality. And that means regardless how great Cerny is at what he does (and he IS fantastic at what he does, let's make that clear)...he is not the only one of his caliber in this game and his approaches are not the exclusive domain in accomplishing particular challenges. We can look at existing solutions between PS and Xbox right now for things such as BC, data compression etc. to see this: there are multiple ways to tackle a problem and often times they are all pretty similar in the effectiveness those problems can be resolved. I may have respect for Cerny, but I'm not going to worship him or dedicate a shrine to the guy, either.

At this point I think I can deduce you're set in your ways on how you view these systems and even myself; think what you will but I know where my balance stands when it comes to PS5 and XSX; safe to say if I hate extremes in politics and fandoms I would at least make sure to avoid doing that myself in this particular regard. But I can't help your personal perception on it. I'm just here to give my perspectives on next-gen, as are you.

You're not living in reality if you think Mark Cerny is making "mere assumptions" about how the PS5 is going to work. :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 
Lmfaooo. Let me ask you this. Did the demo have multiple different cars? Like in real life, or just a repeat of a few subset of vehicles, repeated over and over? Did each vehicle have a different subset of bumpers, grills, scratch marks, dents, etc? Why couldn't this have been done on a potato pc or a current gen console? Because Sony wants to give this falsehood of a NEED for SSD. There is no need to stream anything in a simple ass demo like this. It was not an open world demo, with characters on screen, and a huge variety of data. Only the same few cars and same few buildings. A current gen console could do this with ease. If you think otherwise, please provide proof.

you are the one arguing is not true spiderman game or that is very simple, the game was praised for the tech and content AFAIK if its as simple as you say you should contact digitalfoundry and NXGamer, it is you who have to give context or else you are just pretending to give proof of something, as I said spiderman is a game with certain elements and it takes certain time to load them on PS4, it doesn't require an SSD as it was designed for a system with no SSD, the demo was just to show what it takes in its original form and what it takes to load it as it is but using a PS5 SSD that is all its not even optimized or made based on a SSD is a PS4 game


the world look really complex and there is not buildings repeated over and over or textures repeated over and over and cars had a lot of variety and are very well modeled and look very complex and well textured, speaking of textures they are very high detail and there are decal everywhere in fact buildings have a good amount of interiors modeled even if they are behind windows and not accessible at all it shows big complexity in the buildings an each look very different and distinctive from others, and there is lot of different small props all over the place
 
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you are the one arguing is not true spiderman game or that is very simple, the game was praised for the tech and content AFAIK if its as simple as you say you should contact digitalfoundry and NXGamer, it is you who have to give context or else you are just pretending to give proof of something, as I said spiderman is a game with certain elements and it takes certain time to load them on PS4, it doesn't require an SSD as it was designed for a system with no SSD, the demo was just to show what it takes in its original form and what it takes to load it as it is but using a PS5 SSD that is all its not even optimized or made based on a SSD is a PS4 game


the world look really complex and there is not repeated buildings or textures repeated and cars had a lot of variety and are very well modeled and look very complex and well textured, speaking of textures they are very high detail and there are decal everywhere in fact buildings have a good amount of interiors modeled even if they are behind windows and not accessible at all it shows big complexity in the buildings an each look very different and distinctive from others, and there is lot of different small props all over the place
Did you even watch the video I posted?? Give it a look, and let me know if it looks anything like the video you posted. No spiderman, no npcs. Just basic scenery and...that's about it. Nothing complex, and just a repeat of the same buildings and cars, over and over. You don't need an SSD to do that. Anyone could figure that out.
 

SonGoku

Member
Also, I just wholeheartedly disagree with your entire premise. If the SSD alone can account for 100 unique trees on PS5 it will perform similarly on XsX. Both these SSDs can fill their entire RAM pool insanely quickly
Its not a crazy fanboy theory though, both companies mentioned how SSDs will increase the effective ram and MS even said the SSD will make up for the mild increase in ram this gen
Now i don't mean SSD will be used like ram but it is fast enough to feed RAM assets on demand and swap them as you turn around. This can lead to more diverse and detailed assets.

This is all crazy uncharted territory im waiting for the games to speak for themselves, won't see me using it as a talking point in favor of PS5 because im still cautiously optimistic for games to demonstrate the theory. This also made the disappointing ram upgrade more tolerable
That's just it tho; I've been emphasizing this as something generally beneficial to both systems the whole time.! Maybe I could've done a better job in stating those as general GPGPU asynchronous compute that will be there for both systems, and then a more specific detail on how XSX benefits on top of that with the additional GPU headroom with graphical parity met between both systems.
I just got confused because you were talking of people dismissing the delta as a resolution difference (which it is even if ps5 was 6tf rdna2) were missing the point of asynchronous compute
But in the end we agree so whatever no fun in being anal (ocd?) all the time
At the very least I hope we can agree that asynchronous compute advancements and improvements from the platform holders (APIs, utilities and services), devs (experience, familiarity), architecture (better functioning for such tasks), algorithms (accomplishing more in less cycles, lower resource overhead). etc. will be a major factor in next-gen and benefit both PS5 and XSX, even if the systems actually have good CPUs this time around.
Definetly very excited about the prospect of powerful GPUs with features (Mesh shaders, vrs, asynchronous compute, rpm etc) that via increased effeciency will make them even more powerful as a baseline for next gen games.
 
Did you even watch the video I posted?? Give it a look, and let me know if it looks anything like the video you posted. No spiderman, no npcs. Just basic scenery and...that's about it. Nothing complex, and just a repeat of the same buildings and cars, over and over. You don't need an SSD to do that. Anyone could figure that out.

you mean this?


the demo is showing the same city with its complexity and details there is nothing in the video or the comments of the people present to suggest less details or less amount of data, the camera traverse the city at a speed that spiderman cannot reach in order to force the engine to load the chunks of the city very fast

“Spidey stands in a small plaza. Cerny presses a button on the controller, initiating a fast-travel interstitial screen. When Spidey reappears in a totally different spot in Manhattan, 15 seconds have elapsed. Then Cerny does the same thing on a next-gen devkit connected to a different TV. (The devkit, an early ‘low-speed’ version, is concealed in a big silver tower, with no visible componentry.) What took 15 seconds now takes less than one: 0.8 seconds, to be exact.”



its a feature not present normally in a game by default unless you mod a game or access the debug mode to separate the camera and move characters without bounds of physics or to accommodate them there are youtube channels dedicated to find secrets and check LOD in the scenes of games by doing similar things
 
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you mean this?


the demo is showing the same city with its complexity and details there is nothing in the video or the comments of the people present to suggest less details or less amount of data, the camera traverse the city at a speed that spiderman cannot reach in order to force the engine to load the chunks of the city very fast

“Spidey stands in a small plaza. Cerny presses a button on the controller, initiating a fast-travel interstitial screen. When Spidey reappears in a totally different spot in Manhattan, 15 seconds have elapsed. Then Cerny does the same thing on a next-gen devkit connected to a different TV. (The devkit, an early ‘low-speed’ version, is concealed in a big silver tower, with no visible componentry.) What took 15 seconds now takes less than one: 0.8 seconds, to be exact.”



its a feature not present normally in a game by default unless you mod a game or access the debug mode to separate the camera and move characters without bounds of physics or to accommodate them there are youtube channels dedicated to find secrets and check LOD in the scenes of games by doing similar things
So.... In other words, no spiderman, no NPC's, no AI, nothing complex going on in the scene. This would not be hard to do, or need an SSD to work. Its literally a handful of vehicles, and similar buildings, repeated over and over throughout the scene. I'm not sure why this is even a debate? We literally watched the same video. It doesn't take rocket science to see the obvious: there are less details, no AI, not much vatiety, no NPC's, not even the main character model, etc.
 

DForce

Member
So.... In other words, no spiderman, no NPC's, no AI, nothing complex going on in the scene. This would not be hard to do, or need an SSD to work. Its literally a handful of vehicles, and similar buildings, repeated over and over throughout the scene. I'm not sure why this is even a debate? We literally watched the same video. It doesn't take rocket science to see the obvious: there are less details, no AI, not much vatiety, no NPC's, not even the main character model, etc.

you can see NPCs\AI. I see pedestrians walking and cars moving. At the beginning of the PS5 video, they were standing in front of the camera and quickly switched to another scene entirely, which took a fraction of a second.
 
Interesting! Good to see an even handed piece.. look, the proof is in the pudding. We don't know price, we don't know PS5 demonstrative footage (i know Godfall but it's hard to know much from that footage or else more people would talk of it) or even shape, we don't know anything.

One thing we can say is that the PS5 is the more adventurous console in terms of trying to find wacky hijinks to achieve PC level graphics in a relatively cheap machine that will ultimately spend most of its life behind what PCs can offer. PS5 could be said to be the smartass Marty McFly to XSX's Biff. He of the souped up hoverboard. We will see what works better in the long run but it's too early to tell now.
 
So.... In other words, no spiderman, no NPC's, no AI, nothing complex going on in the scene. This would not be hard to do, or need an SSD to work. Its literally a handful of vehicles, and similar buildings, repeated over and over throughout the scene. I'm not sure why this is even a debate? We literally watched the same video. It doesn't take rocket science to see the obvious: there are less details, no AI, not much vatiety, no NPC's, not even the main character model, etc.

there are clearly NPCs in the video and the people present mention spiderman was there and then reappear when the camera stopped traversing in fact he started in a plaza is there in the quote, also its meaningless if spiderman was during the transition as spiderman model and code is in ram already and there is no need to be streamed again, the point of the the transition is to force the machine to load assets not present in ram from HDD/SDD, also AI is to be applied on characters and cars in scene, the algorithm is in ram all the time, you have zero understanding of what you are talking about
 
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martino

Member
Or they could just learn to be better programmers? Honestly it's nowhere near the level of challenge true split memory pools have offered on previous systems and those were dealt with even if it meant compromises. Sure it may sound arrogant to say "the devs just need to be better", but honestly just picture any developer complaining about the "split" bandwidth pool in XSX like it's the end of the world. I'd have to question their skills as a dev if they could not come to terms with it.

Especially considering there are hardware features in place that can assist with reducing the memory footprint (and thus freeing up more physical memory), being smart with what data goes into which bandwidth pool, swapping the data strategically along the bandwidth pools, etc.

So yes, it's a particular quirk to XSX's design but nowhere near being an issue some folks are making it out to be.



Wow, I didn't know I made yesterday's post a full month ago. Dat quantum time travel wormhole experiment I've got running in my back shed must've worked after all. Time to call up Elon Musk baby!!

Okay, jokes aside, I think it's kind of obvious you're getting your wires crossed. It's like you're arguing just to be arguing now, and have some personal issue with my POV on things. Fine, whatever. But nothing you're talking about anymore is really adding much to the original discussion.

The SSDs still draw power; and Sony's will draw more since it has more speed and more NAND modules. The variable frequency adjusts power loads that result in frequency reductions. If I ever stated the reduction could potentially come from heat-related buildup, I misspoke. It happens every once in a while.

You seem to be under the impression Mark Cerny is a god among men or at least among engineers, and his approach the only one that can achieve the goals set out to be accomplished. Well, that is a nice fantasy, but I live in reality. And that means regardless how great Cerny is at what he does (and he IS fantastic at what he does, let's make that clear)...he is not the only one of his caliber in this game and his approaches are not the exclusive domain in accomplishing particular challenges. We can look at existing solutions between PS and Xbox right now for things such as BC, data compression etc. to see this: there are multiple ways to tackle a problem and often times they are all pretty similar in the effectiveness those problems can be resolved. I may have respect for Cerny, but I'm not going to worship him or dedicate a shrine to the guy, either.

At this point I think I can deduce you're set in your ways on how you view these systems and even myself; think what you will but I know where my balance stands when it comes to PS5 and XSX; safe to say if I hate extremes in politics and fandoms I would at least make sure to avoid doing that myself in this particular regard. But I can't help your personal perception on it. I'm just here to give my perspectives on next-gen, as are you.
Also there



NGL this is kind of interesting but not something the next-gen consoles will be needing....

...unless things get to a point where a decently capable GPU chip can fit on one of these and be cheap enough to serve as an expansion card ala Saturn 4MB RAM cartridge, but more in function like SNES Super FX chip and MegaDrive SVP chip in practice.

..Kinda actually want that to happen, but dunno if the systems are future-proofed for it. At least it'd cut down on needing a full mid-gen refresh.
As 14 years experienced dev not for video games but having worked on multiple platforms at multiple level with multiple tools.
At this point dev preferences only points something about learning curve. (easy to learn don't mean better when mastered or for complex scenarios. Not saying anything for this specific case but underlining things you can't conclude for now)
And this is without considering how biased we can be toward philosophy of tools / platforms that have nothing to do with how far you can go using them.
When People read too much into those early opinions they mostly add their own bias to the mix or worst if they turn them into facts.
It fells i'm really doing captain obvious here.

(Also dev conferences are not done only for love of the art)
 
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sinnergy

Banned
you mean this?


the demo is showing the same city with its complexity and details there is nothing in the video or the comments of the people present to suggest less details or less amount of data, the camera traverse the city at a speed that spiderman cannot reach in order to force the engine to load the chunks of the city very fast

“Spidey stands in a small plaza. Cerny presses a button on the controller, initiating a fast-travel interstitial screen. When Spidey reappears in a totally different spot in Manhattan, 15 seconds have elapsed. Then Cerny does the same thing on a next-gen devkit connected to a different TV. (The devkit, an early ‘low-speed’ version, is concealed in a big silver tower, with no visible componentry.) What took 15 seconds now takes less than one: 0.8 seconds, to be exact.”



its a feature not present normally in a game by default unless you mod a game or access the debug mode to separate the camera and move characters without bounds of physics or to accommodate them there are youtube channels dedicated to find secrets and check LOD in the scenes of games by doing similar things
It’s a last gen game running stock on next-gen hardware, with last gen restrictions, poly counts etc...

So it better run better!
But what if you upped everything, poly counts , npcs, lighting, shadowing. A real next gen game .

What it did is created hype.
 

TBiddy

Member
Since xbsex ssd is 2x slower than ps5 does it mean that spidey demo would load in 1.6s on xsex ssd?

Maybe. Maybe not. That's impossible to answer without knowing how the demo was created. It could be 1.2 seconds, it could be 2.2 seconds.
 
It’s a last gen game running stock on next-gen hardware, with last gen restrictions, poly counts etc...

So it better run better!
But what if you upped everything, poly counts , npcs, lighting, shadowing. A real next gen game .

What it did is created hype.

its a point of comparison for SSD speed nothing more

sure more complex assets require more data but also the game is not designed for that kind of drive so more complex assets can present more trouble but only after new stream strategies for the drive and its benefits are established is too soon for that I yhink the light and shadows is already very good, the NPC counts can present a problem or not that depends the game and how they manage the LOD system and the complexity of NPC, the game uses a fair amount of NPCs very good quality and looks correct for the representation of a crowded city but again that depends what they are trying to do and how they do it and lets not forget that a good LOD system will disguise the complexity of high number of NPCs

huge amounts of NPC for the sake of it is not necessarily next gen, this is PS2 for example


I think we are in a point of diminished returns in term of polycounts per character, there is no point in adding more polygons and some times it seems the artist dont want to optimize the models because there is no performance penalization, as a result we see insane amount of polygons in some characters and very low polycounts in others and the difference is not easy to spot with good artists some times the mistakes are in LOD models and I have seen high polycounts and bad models too, nowadays more polygons go to tessellation techniques and things like that can be easily controlled in LOD systems
 

semicool

Banned
You guys will have a lot of explaining to do when we actually see PS5 3rd party games looking the same as XSX games. And don't give us the "lazy devs" excuse either.
Well apparently the ps5 cannot do Ray tracing on the cu at the same time as rasterization on the same cu so you'll see a huge difference there. When Ray tracing is turned on. 😀

Andrew Goossen. "For the Series X, this work is offloaded onto dedicated hardware and the shader can continue to run in parallel with full performance..."

Mark gave his more in depth presentation and said nothing of the same sort which implies it's not there. They are both some version of RDNA2 but with customizations. It appears to be a customization for XSX that provide a tremendous performance advantage when Ray tracing compared to Ps5 as that will have to choose whether the hardware is used for rasterization or Ray tracing but not both in parallel on the CU...ie when Ray Tracing is turned on it'll decrease and impact rasterization performance way harder on PS5 than XSX or to compensate, the Ray tracing use or effects will be "lightweight" compared to XSX...ie..GPU on PS5 is mutually exclusive to Ray tracing or rasterization..
 
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fybyfyby

Member
I still think, Sony did their homework better. Not in terms of brute power. Cerny did that mistake, that he told masses, what masses couldnt understand. There were lot of little things about architecture, which were not emphasized when needed. For example (and its really only my opinion) Cerny described, how much energy costs to render something. Biggest draw came from loading assetts not by drawing them. And he addressed this point. He didnt go much deeper though. I think that Cerny (and Sony) tried to make ps5 maximally power efficient. So they didnt just used fast ssd. They did everything custom. So if you need some assett into gpu memory, you dont need to do operations typical on pcs and nowadays consoles. I really dont know, if its gonna be more energy or time efficient.

This little nuance seems to me like that it can be really big thing there. Fast SSD is only cream on top.

I really dont understand, why Sony didnt make much better marketed presentation. Or why it simply was broadcasted to public, when it wasnt meant for public. I really dont understand that. But I never really understood Sony and Nintendo PR.

Maybe Im only imagine something, what isnt there. I dont know. But I still think, Its not only about faster SSD in case of PS5. Sometimes it seems Sony lives inside a bubble.
 

Shmunter

Gold Member
That has nothing to do with GPU?

Also, I just wholeheartedly disagree with your entire premise. If the SSD alone can account for 100 unique trees on PS5 it will perform similarly on XsX. Both these SSDs can fill their entire RAM pool insanely quickly

The horseshit is really starting to stink in here
I guess if twice the speed is similar to half that speed then you’re onto something.
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
You quoted some people that say things you don't like. In your mind it translates to people trying to make the PS5 look as weak as possible. But really, it's Sony that for example said that 2.23 GHz will be achieved most of the time, i.e. not all the time. Saying that does not somehow mean that someone is trying to paint the PS5 as weak as possible.

You really need to let go of this victimhood mentality. It's not healthy. You honestly remind me of this...;


That dude in that meme isn't a good example to use lol.
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
It’s a last gen game running stock on next-gen hardware, with last gen restrictions, poly counts etc...

So it better run better!
But what if you upped everything, poly counts , npcs, lighting, shadowing. A real next gen game .

What it did is created hype.

Next-gen will be hard for you man. At worse, next-gen games should load in 3 seconds on the PS5.

The “same”.

Just with more resolution, better framerate, better raytracing, etc...

Nope. Just more resolution, that's all. The proof is in the numbers. Numbers don't lie, people do.
 
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martino

Member
I think we are in a point of diminished returns in term of polycounts per character, there is no point in adding more polygons and some times it seems the artist dont want to optimize the models because there is no performance penalization, as a result we see insane amount of polygons in some characters and very low polycounts in others and the difference is not easy to spot with good artists some times the mistakes are in LOD models and I have seen high polycounts and bad models too, nowadays more polygons go to tessellation techniques and things like that can be easily controlled in LOD systems
Ff7 remake pngs disagree
 
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Jon Neu

Banned
Nope. Just more resolution, that's all. The proof is in the numbers. Numbers don't lie, people do.

And that's why the numbers sugest a better raytracing and better framerate perfomance too.

And by the way, more resolution it's already better, not the same. You are literally contradicting yourself.
 
Ff7 remake pngs disagree

in what way they disagree? SE is one of the devs that usually use huge amount of triangles in their characters but if you inspect them they can be reduced a lot

to put an example jessie uses around 150k triangles(according to blender) in total but her eyelashes are a complex mesh with every hair modeled instead of an alpha texture over a segmented plane like most games, the eyelashes alone are 11k triangles (that is more than leon from RE4, onimusha characters or Jak from Jak3), and the hair and eyebrows are 47k triangles that is really weird so insane detail for eyelashes, so obviously someone in SE said "hey the eyelashes are very important" and they went crazy with it cloud's eyelashes also are insane 10k triangles from 260k triangles, is insane there is a lot of details that can abe in a normal map but instead they modeled the curves and imperfection in the surface of characters clothes


I don't know if I can show pictures here don't want to risk a ban
 
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martino

Member
in what way they disagree? SE is one of the devs that usually use huge amount of triangles in their characters but if you inspect them they can be reduced a lot

to put an example jessie uses around 150k triangles(according to blender) in total but her eyelashes are a complex mesh with every hair modeled instead of an alpha texture over a segmented plane like most games, the eyelashes alone are 11k triangles (that is more than leon from RE4, onimusha characters or Jak from Jak3), and the hair and eyebrows are 47k triangles that is really weird so insane detail for eyelashes, so obviously someone in SE said "hey the eyelashes are very important" and they went crazy with it cloud's eyelashes also are insane 10k triangles from 260k triangles, is insane


I am working in a model that currently is no more than 8k triangles for everything(except hair and clothes) and also uses eyelashes and in my opinion for the difference in polycounts the face in the model I am working and the face of jessie doesnt look that different when texture is applied(they also have different proportions)

I don't know if I can show pictures here don't want to risk a ban
And What about the majority of minor npc.?
 
And What about the majority of minor npc.?

dont have models of them, but in my experience with japanese games models, they will probably be very low polygons, its in western games where you can see more consistency , not saying every dev do that(dark souls series is very consistent in character details except the mayor NPCs in 3) but you can see that tendency in japanese art even in anime and their stories, no love for NPCs :messenger_pensive:
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
And that's why the numbers sugest a better raytracing and better framerate perfomance too.

And by the way, more resolution it's already better, not the same. You are literally contradicting yourself.

More resolution isn't always better if you have to sacrifice framerate (see RE3 Remake on the Xbox One X).
 

martino

Member
dont have models of them, but in my experience with japanese games models, they will probably be very low polygons, its in western games where you can see more consistency , not saying every dev do that(dark souls series is very consistent in character details except the mayor NPCs in 3) but you can see that tendency in japanese art even in anime and their stories, no love for NPCs :messenger_pensive:
some examples :



 

Jon Neu

Banned
More resolution isn't always better if you have to sacrifice framerate (see RE3 Remake on the Xbox One X).

Again, the XsX has a better CPU.

And not only that, but the variable frequency of the PS5 means that more than often developers are going to sacrifice CPU perfomance for the GPU.

So it's going to be more resolution and better framerate.
 

PocoJoe

Banned
So.... In other words, no spiderman, no NPC's, no AI, nothing complex going on in the scene. This would not be hard to do, or need an SSD to work. Its literally a handful of vehicles, and similar buildings, repeated over and over throughout the scene. I'm not sure why this is even a debate? We literally watched the same video. It doesn't take rocket science to see the obvious: there are less details, no AI, not much vatiety, no NPC's, not even the main character model, etc.

Are you completely missing the point of that demonstration on purpose or what?

To make your highness happy there should be spider-man swinging on super speed of a jet fighter and look ridiculous? Or camera should stop in every 20m and zoom into NPCs nose hair?

That would be really stupid and would miss the point all together.

Point of that demonstration is to show that PS5 can do what PS4 pro cant -> load assets much faster so it allows faster speeds for movement.

Just replace spider-man with superman and it would make sense to fly that fast trough the city.


IMO you are just whining about irrelevant details that have nothing to do with the demo, you really think that having spider-man swinging 200km/h and look ridiculous would be better way to demonstrate SSD ability to load scenes faster than HDD?

And there are NPCs but do you seriously think that it is even possible to see all the tiny details when flying so fast?

it would be just smart to not to render stuff with same quality as walking speed, if you cant see details because of the speed.

but again, point isnt "look we have this speeeeed and details, look the details, oh no we cant render the DETAILS and SPIDER-MAN in our demo of movement speed trought city vs last gen"
 

martino

Member
Again, the XsX has a better CPU.

And not only that, but the variable frequency of the PS5 means that more than often developers are going to sacrifice CPU perfomance for the GPU.

So it's going to be more resolution and better framerate.

not sure about that.
i was under the impression we lack details on how velocity works and how it hits cpu in xsx case (not pc)
 
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Shmunter

Gold Member
We know the XsX has a stronger CPU that has all it's power available all the time, unlike the PS5.
It’s not the size of the battleship, it’s the motion of the ocean

Or so the ladies tell me......I’ve said too much
 
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Are you completely missing the point of that demonstration on purpose or what?

To make your highness happy there should be spider-man swinging on super speed of a jet fighter and look ridiculous? Or camera should stop in every 20m and zoom into NPCs nose hair?

That would be really stupid and would miss the point all together.

Point of that demonstration is to show that PS5 can do what PS4 pro cant -> load assets much faster so it allows faster speeds for movement.

Just replace spider-man with superman and it would make sense to fly that fast trough the city.


IMO you are just whining about irrelevant details that have nothing to do with the demo, you really think that having spider-man swinging 200km/h and look ridiculous would be better way to demonstrate SSD ability to load scenes faster than HDD?

And there are NPCs but do you seriously think that it is even possible to see all the tiny details when flying so fast?

it would be just smart to not to render stuff with same quality as walking speed, if you cant see details because of the speed.

but again, point isnt "look we have this speeeeed and details, look the details, oh no we cant render the DETAILS and SPIDER-MAN in our demo of movement speed trought city vs last gen"
Lmfaaaaao. You are completely missing my point. The demo doesn't require an SSD. I've said that multiple times now. The point of me mentioning the demo missing all kinda unique assets, and the data that was shown was literally recycled over and over. There were no different scenes besides being in a city, with the same vehicles and cars, repeated over and over. All of this data could fit in the ram of current gen systems, and would not require a SSD. Are you lost already? Should I break this down some more for you to finally understand this time?

If the camera went through the city, a forest, a desert, then other places, and had an actual variety of practically everything, then you could possibly have a point, but you don't. There was nothing unique about the assets and scenery to require an SSD to showcase that demo, for the last fucking time. Game play in Spiderman on PS4 is more impressive than this "demo", which gives the false pretense of a needed SSD. I'm not sure how else to put this in writing for you to understand. I'll say it one more time, since you completely missed the point. NO NEED FOR A SSD IN THAT DEMO.
 

VGEsoterica

Member
I mean awesome PS5 did that, but when both consoles will have such fast resume / loading, will it really be an edge for Sony? I’m not the most patient person but if we’re talking ten vs 20 seconds on Xbox Series X, will that sway consumers?

really it’s Sony’s first party games that being the sales for me
 

ZywyPL

Gold Member
I mean awesome PS5 did that, but when both consoles will have such fast resume / loading, will it really be an edge for Sony? I’m not the most patient person but if we’re talking ten vs 20 seconds on Xbox Series X, will that sway consumers?

really it’s Sony’s first party games that being the sales for me


Just imagine an average Joe who has no clue what a TF or SSD is, who is used to current and previous-gen 1-2min loadings, jumping to mere few seconds now... PS5 might have twice as fast drive, but if at the end of the day it will translate into just 2-3s faster loading no one will ever notice, the jump from HDD to SSD will be HUGE regardless on XB or PS. If anything, Sony should be more concerned with that 825GB capacity, because that's what the consumers are familiar with, and will immediately notice they had a whole 1TB prebefore and now will be getting less, for the mentioned 2-3s saved on loadings.
 
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some examples :




apparently they not have the crazy things the main characters have which is good, they are very well modeled, SE are very talented but they really go crazy with polycounts in main characters in my opinion they can optimize them and use the saved geometry to improve scenery, it looks good but looks weird how it looks compared to the detail dedicated to the main characters

dont get me wrong I respect SE artists they are very talented but they go crazy sometimes, that is not necessarily bad but there are other elements in the game, if you dont respect those details the characters dont look as part of it because the detail is overkill

there are games that look more consistent with details while having main characters with similar polycounts as FF7 R that dont use 11k triangles for eyelashes and give more love to the scene, sure I prefer FF7R as a game but this look more natural every object look consistent with the detail for the most part, no overkill textures for some objects and low resolution texture for others

 
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Ascend

Member
I think Ray-Tracing is the game changer for next gen. If Series X has a big advantage there, that's far more significant than any of the other spec differences.
Nah... The SSD is way more important. Ray tracing is a rendering technique to get more accurate lighting, reflections, shadows etc. So it's better for looks only. But the SSD can actually change how the games are designed. You won't need elevators, narrow ducts/pathways etc. Not having to mask loading will really change how games are made.
That being said, this all applies for both consoles. Ultimately, I still think the XSX is the more powerful console, and the main (and maybe only) advantage the PS5 can have is more efficient RAM allocation, which in reality will not matter that much.
 
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