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[Robb]

Doubt they’ll stop trying, there’s too much money to be made there. A couple of poorly performing games won’t make much of a difference.

The GaaS model seem fairly well adjusted for failures considering most live service games are half baked at release, so if they fail early on I imagine it won’t be devastating for the publisher/developer. Just make a new one until you find something that sticks, then stop making new games and just keep supporting that one game.

 

[winjer]

Most company CEO's don't care about the large amount of live service games that have failed.
They only see the few games at the top that are raking in billions, and think they can do the same.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

The GaaS model seem fairly well adjusted for failures considering most live service games are half baked at release

Are they tho'? - and if still yes, it can be applied to sum of all games released, right?

 

[Amiga]

As much as I wish this to be true. Sadly Gaas is working too well for games like Fortnight, Destiny, Genshkin, GTA 5, Diablo Immortal, Roblox..

Avengers failed because it was unplayable trash, not the revenue model.

 

[LazyParrot]

CoD, Destiny, Fortnite, Apex Legends, Fall Guys, Rocket League, Genshin Impact etc. etc. seems to do really well. I'd say it's 70/30 in favor of successful live service games, if we only count the major publishers.

Epic arguably aren't a major publisher even now, and they definitely weren't one when Fortnite released. On top of that, they bought out Fall Guys and Rocket league after they were already massively successful. It's like crediting Microsoft with the success of Skyrim.

 

[Filben]

They won't because they all think they can land the next big thing among FIFA and CoD. Potential and promised revenue is too big to let go and untried. And many do well.

As long as these life service features won't creep into the majority of games, I say let them try. Why not. There's an audience, a significant one and my standards of how a game should look and play like isn't the holy grail.

 

[Roufianos]

Just makes me wonder how Sony's wild chase is gonna turn out. You can easily see at least half of them flopping.

 

[Braag]

You keep chasing that GaaS dream until you run the studio to the ground and close doors. Then from its ashes new studios are born of which some will give us good and successful single player games until they grow so big that they want to chase that GaaS dream again and the cycle continues.

 

[Saber]

Those clows see games like Genshin Impact or Honkai Impact and says "Look guys! Lets just make games like those, its easy money! Easiest job we ever done!"

Doing this kind of stuff is very hard, not for every loser. I could say the risks are very high, if can't put some compelling stuff, great art direction and fan-service as a bait, nothing you catch people into it.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Epic arguably aren't a major publisher even now, and they definitely weren't one when Fortnite released. On top of that, they bought out Fall Guys and Rocket league after they were already massively successful. It's like crediting Microsoft with the success of Skyrim.

Well, they published Unreal Engine and could be accounted for 25% of all games published for the past 25 years - so I'd say they're a major publisher.

 

[LazyParrot]

Well, they published Unreal Engine and could be accounted for 25% of all games published for the past 25 years - so I'd say they're a major publisher.

LMAO what's next? Autodesk being a major publisher because 100% of studios use their software?

 

[8BiTw0LF]

LMAO what's next? Autodesk being a major publisher because 100% of studios use their software?

Sure, I'd like to see Call of Duty running on Autodesk...

 

[LordCBH]

The crazy thing is, any new live service you make NOW basically has to redefine whatever genre it’s in to succeed, and it’s still not guaranteed.

Good fucking luck pulling gamers away from the entrenched and established live service games at this point. Apex players aren’t going to move to another game, Fortnite players aren’t, Destiny 2 players won’t, Siege players won’t, Warzone players won’t. Live service games are massive, but all these publishers or developers trying to get in on them now missed the mark by about 4 years.

A first party could maybe have a chance thanks to their console user base and brand loyalty, but even then it would be tough.

 

[BabyfaceRe]

You forgot Fortnite, Destiny, Lost Ark, Genshin Impact etc. etc. etc.

The model isn't failing, those games are failing, there is a big difference.

When executed properly, live service is the most lucrative genre of game that can be made. It's not going anywhere.

Hopefully, these recent failures will reiterate that half-assing your way into this genre is not gonna work.

Let's see how Diablo 4 plays out....

 

[LazyParrot]

Sure, I'd like to see Call of Duty running on Autodesk...

Call of Duty isn't doesn't even use Unreal Engine. I bet it was made using Autodesk products though lol.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Call of Duty isn't doesn't even use Unreal Engine. I bet it was made using Autodesk products though lol.

I know, just an example. You can't deny Epic is a major publisher when 25% of all games on steam is using their engine - which they published. The autodesk comparison is whack.

 

[LazyParrot]

I know, just an example. You can't deny Epic is a major publisher when 25% of all games on steam is using their engine - which they published. The autodesk comparison is whack.

I'd bet significantly more than 25% of all games on Steam (where does that number come from, anyway?) were made using Autodesk software - which Autodesk published. Unreal Engine is a tool for making games. Autodesk Maya and 3DS Max are tools for making games. Where is the difference, exactly?

If Epic gets to be a major publisher of games because lots of developers use Unreal Engine, does Microsoft get to call themselves the world's largest publisher of books because most authors use Microsoft Word?

 

[8BiTw0LF]

I'd bet significantly more than 25% of all games on Steam (where does that number come from, anyway?) were made using Autodesk software - which Autodesk published. Unreal Engine is a tool for making games. Autodesk Maya and 3DS Max are tools for making games. Where is the difference, exactly?

If Epic gets to be a major publisher of games because lots of developers use Unreal Engine, does Microsoft get to call themselves the world's largest publisher of books because most authors use Microsoft Word?

Unreal Engine is an engine, not a tool like Autodesk or any of the other tools you mentioned, including Microsoft Word.

Again, what a lame comparison.

 

[LazyParrot]

Unreal Engine is an engine, not a tool like Autodesk or any of the other tools you mentioned, including Microsoft Word.

But that's literally all game engines are. Sets of standardized tools designed to facilitate certain aspects of game development. They'll take care of some things for you, but not all of them, and they're explicitly meant to be used with other software tools for precisely that reason.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

But that's literally all game engines are. Sets of standardized tools designed to facilitate certain aspects of game development. They'll take care of some things for you, but not all of them, and they're explicitly meant to be used with other software tools for precisely that reason.

Easier to say they're the foundation of game development - you can only take your game as far as the engine allows. Epic is the biggest publisher of game engines and has been for the past 25 years. That's the biggest reason they haven't published that many "games". Epic is a major publisher no matter how you try to twist it.

 

[Shut0wen]

Dont have any issues with GAAS games but alot of it relays on smooth launches and content, anthem was fucked the minute it came out but theres no denying it made EA alot of money since it was hyped to the high heavens just bioware wasnt quick enough to fix the game, infinte being the same and also avengers too, ubi seems to interested in there GAAS games being incredibly budgetted and also being out right shit, think the only game thats done quite well progressing to a none GAAS to becoming one has to be rainbow six siege and also gta

 

[Knightime_X]

GaaS would be more successful with lower prices.
Not only would you attract more buyers you will also get returning buyers.

Current mind set is: There are plenty of stupid people, no need to lower prices.

 

[Laptop1991]

I agree, but they won't stop making them, they just see all that money they want to make from games that are not very good in the end, because they are made to make money, but they don't get this!

 

[Pelta88]

Live service is a decent genre. It's the publishers approach that is flawed. Zero innovation. None whatsoever. Which means the biggest names ie COD and Fortnite dominate that space. Everything else fades quickly, with few exceptions.

 

[Topher]

Those clows see games like Genshin Impact or Honkai Impact and says "Look guys! Lets just make games like those, its easy money! Easiest job we ever done!"

Doing this kind of stuff is very hard, not for every loser. I could say the risks are very high, if can't put some compelling stuff, great art direction and fan-service as a bait, nothing you catch people into it.

Copy catting success is one of the biggest traps for devs and publishers in gaming. Trying to be the next Fortnite, PubG, Genshin Impact, whatever and in many cases they become abysmal failures. The problem is when a publisher is trying to create a business model first rather than a kickass game.

 

[LazyParrot]

Easier to say they're the foundation of game development - you can only take your game as far as the engine allows. Epic is the biggest publisher of game engines and has been for the past 25 years. That's the biggest reason they haven't published that many "games". Epic is a major publisher no matter how you try to twist it.

Yeah, foundations are important. Crucial, even. And yes, a house (to stick with your analogy) will only go as far as the foundation allows. But aren't you kind of losing sight of the fact that there's a bit more to a house than that? Like walls, windows, a roof and all that jazz. Those aren't optional. You absolutely positively need them, or it won't be a house. That stuff is every bit as important as the foundation itself. It doesn't matter if your foundation is theoretically sturdy enough for a skyscraper full of luxury apartments, if there's nothing built on top it's just a sad, useless slab of concrete.

As such, I don't really see how Epic's contribution to the final product is any more important than Autodesk's. I mean, if you're looking at this from a pure indispensability standpoint, Autodesk clearly wins out. Most studios don't use Unreal Engine. Many - even smaller ones - make their own. Can you say the same thing about Autodesk's products? Have you ever heard of a studio that replaced, say, Maya with an inhouse solution?

 

[8BiTw0LF]

As such, I don't really see how Epic's contribution to the final product is any more important than Autodesk's.

I'm sorry but it's getting really hard to take your statements seriously.

 

[LazyParrot]

I'm sorry but it's getting really hard to take your statements seriously.

Says the guy who thinks 25% of games published in the past 25 years use UE.

 

[Kacho]

Agreed OP. My biggest problem is the always online requirement which means the game will be dead at some point in the near future. It’s why I refuse to play a game like Division 2 even when it’s on sale for 9 bucks.

Darktide is another disaster btw. Can’t believe how bad they fumbled.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Says the guy who thinks 25% of games published in the past 25 years use UE.

Which are the most commonly used Game Engines?

Is it possible to get an overview of which game engines are the most popular? We have made an attempt to understand the current state of the game engine market.

www.gamedeveloper.com

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Depends on the game.

Also, game companies seem to be doing great with sales and profits over the years, so any failing game cant be that detrimental to the bottom line.

If it wasnt for COD, Fortnite, EA Sports Ultimate Team packs etc.... having huge online communities raking in the money you wouldnt have almost every studio aiming for GAAS models. The lure and lottery roll of the dice to achieve the next Fortnite is to big to ignore.

 

[NightmareFarm]

Agreed, i'm sick of these scummy industry trends. DLC should be one year MAX then move on to the next game. The only exemptions are for fighting games.

 

[LazyParrot]

Which are the most commonly used Game Engines?

Is it possible to get an overview of which game engines are the most popular? We have made an attempt to understand the current state of the game engine market.

www.gamedeveloper.com

1. Not all games released in the last 25 years are on Steam. A good chunk of them probably aren't, even if you don't count mobile or console releases.

2. Only a small fraction of games on Steam were even caught by the script the authors of that article used, and they readily admit that there is "a large margin of error in the data from our Steam query on many levels".

3. If you want a better, more recent breakdown game engines on Steam from the same site, try this one: https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/game-engines-on-steam-the-definitive-breakdown. Still not even close to 25%.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

1. Not all games released in the last 25 years are on Steam. A good chunk of them probably aren't, even if you don't count mobile or console releases.

2. Only a small fraction of games on Steam were even caught by the script the authors of that article used, and they readily admit that there is "a large margin of error in the data from our Steam query on many levels".

3. If you want a better, more recent breakdown game engines on Steam from the same site, try this one: https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/game-engines-on-steam-the-definitive-breakdown. Still not even close to 25%.

But most PUBLISHED games released the last 25 years are on Steam. Console games is even a higher %. ~48% of new (published) games released on new-gen consoles are made in UE.

 

[LazyParrot]

But most PUBLISHED games released the last 25 years are on Steam. Console games is even a higher %. ~48% of new (published) games released on new-gen consoles are made in UE.

What difference does that make, though? Even if every single game published in the past 25 years were on Steam, there is still no reason to believe that 25% of them use Unreal Engine.

I mean, just look at this pie chart from the article I linked:

How can 25% of games on Steam run on Unreal Engine when the percentage of UE games among new launches has been significantly lower than 25% for the past decade? The only way that's possible is if literally thousands of Unreal Engine titles were secretly launched between 2004 and 2009, the years not covered in the chart. If that's what happened, then where the hell are they?

 

[8BiTw0LF]

What difference does that make, though? Even if every single game published in the past 25 years were on Steam, there is still no reason to believe that 25% of them use Unreal Engine.

I mean, just look at this pie chart from the article I linked:

How can 25% of games on Steam run on Unreal Engine when the percentage of UE games among new launches has been significantly lower than 25% for the past decade? The only way that's possible is if literally thousands of Unreal Engine titles were secretly launched between 2004 and 2009, the years not covered in the chart. If that's what happened, then where the hell are they?

You do realise that there's a difference in published games and self-released games, right? Sure, UE has become cheaper to use, but it's still the go-to engine for mid-large projects - and is therefore the most used engine for published games.

 

[wolffy71]

I can only afford so many season passes

 

[EDMIX]

Just three examples that failed but there are so many that make millions. Of course this is a recurring scheme.

was just going to say that.

I don't get this "lets cherry pick a few titles" and act as if that is enough to make any company move away from online MP titles.

If it wasn't a thing making them money, they wouldn't be going after it as aggressively as they are. Those online MP titles are the only games I've ever seen where literally over night 100 million, 200 million, 600 million etc can jump on some game and it becomes some massive ass thing.

We've never seen that happen to any new IP single player title for anyone to really fucking pretend someone should move a way from that online concept.

I don't see the number to support them stopping those games. It would be fucking stupid if they did too.

 

[LazyParrot]

You do realise that there's a difference in published games and self-released games, right? Sure, UE has become cheaper to use, but it's still the go-to engine for mid-large projects - and is therefore the most used engine for published games.

I don't realize this, because it's utter nonsense. Anyone making a game available for purchase on Steam is publishing it. But even if that weren't the case, you'd still be wrong, simply because the biggest third party publishers on Steam are churning out casual games and mobile ports rather than "mid-large projects". For every Unreal Engine game 2K, THQ or Bandai Namco put out there are dozens upon dozens of board game clones and hidden object games bein dumped on the platform by casual publishers like Alawar or Big Fish. The 30 largest publishers on Steam by volume have ~4000 games on offer, but only about 200 of them use Unreal Engine.

Now, I'm pretty sure I know what's goin to happen next. You'll probably say something along the lines of "You do realize that there's a difference in casual published games and real published games, right?" But before you do that... I'm begging you, please just stop. You already went from "25% of all games released in the last 25 years" to "25% of all games on Steam", to "25% of all 'published games' on Steam". You're just gonna narrow it down further and further until you get to a point where only Fortnite counts.

I've been on the internet for 20+ years and I've never, ever seen someone put so much effort into goalpost moving over something so trivial. Just give it a rest. Look, I'll even pretend you won! Man, Unreal Engine sure is fucking everywhere these days. Can't even remember the last time I played a game that didn't use it. Real games, I mean. Not fake self-released ones.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

I don't realize this, because it's utter nonsense. Anyone making a game available for purchase on Steam is publishing it. But even if that weren't the case, you'd still be wrong, simply because the biggest third party publishers on Steam are churning out casual games and mobile ports rather than "mid-large projects". For every Unreal Engine game 2K, THQ or Bandai Namco put out there are dozens upon dozens of board game clones and hidden object games bein dumped on the platform by casual publishers like Alawar or Big Fish. The 30 largest publishers on Steam by volume have ~4000 games on offer, but only about 200 of them use Unreal Engine.

Now, I'm pretty sure I know what's goin to happen next. You'll probably say something along the lines of "You do realize that there's a difference in casual published games and real published games, right?" But before you do that... I'm begging you, please just stop. You already went from "25% of all games released in the last 25 years" to "25% of all games on Steam", to "25% of all 'published games' on Steam". You're just gonna narrow it down further and further until you get to a point where only Fortnite counts.

I've been on the internet for 20+ years and I've never, ever seen someone put so much effort into goalpost moving over something so trivial. Just give it a rest. Look, I'll even pretend you won! Man, Unreal Engine sure is fucking everywhere these days. Can't even remember the last time I played a game that didn't use it. Real games, I mean. Not fake self-released ones.

It's you who are moving goalposts Would you consider Alawar or Big Fish major publishers? - you don't consider Epic to be a major publisher, but Alawar with ~50 employees, sure! lol

Gratz on the 20+ years internet anniversary, young lad.

 

[LazyParrot]

It's you who are moving goalposts Would you consider Alawar or Big Fish major publishers? - you don't consider Epic to be a major publisher, but Alawar with ~50 employees, sure! lol

No, I wouldn't consider them major publishers. Never claimed otherwise either, just that they were pushing a comparatively large number of games on Steam, which is objectively true. Big Fish alone has almost as many games for sale as Bethesda, 2K, Bandai Namco, EA and Ubisoft combined. But what kind of publisher they are is, again, besides the point. You claimed 25% of third-party published games on Steam used Unreal Engine, and the fact that games in that category are overwhelmingly casual shovelware proves that that can't be true.

And now that I think of it... you claim that releasing your own stuff isn't the same thing as publishing, but you're willing to confer major publisher status on Epic for doing exactly that with Unreal Engine. How does that work, anyway?

 

[8BiTw0LF]

you claim that releasing your own stuff isn't the same thing as publishing, but you're willing to confer major publisher status on Epic for doing exactly that with Unreal Engine. How does that work, anyway?

This was simply a sidenote, to why they're a major publisher. Epic has published (in general) 2-3 games every year since 1991, which is a very decent number of games - compared to other major publishers. In my book, to be a major publisher the money earnings count and I'd also say review scores count for the games published, but I think you think otherwise and that's what we're really discussing?

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Destiny 2 and the soon to be released TLOU Factions disagrees.

 

[LazyParrot]

This was simply a sidenote, to why they're a major publisher. Epic has published (in general) 2-3 games every year since 1991, which is a very decent number of games - compared to other major publishers. In my book, to be a major publisher the money earnings count and I'd also say review scores count for the games published, but I think you think otherwise and that's what we're really discussing?

Epic published zero of their own games between 1995 and 2009, and zero games made by third parties between 1996 and 2020. Almost all of the games they were known for pre-Fortnite were published by other companies. Most games they've published since 2017 have been either some Fortnite game mode or existing games that they didn't originally fund or publish themselves, but retroactively became the publisher of by acquiring the studios that made them.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Batman Arkham Knights just flopped.
Callisto Protocol just flopped.
Forespoken about to flop.

Who's making the "Publishers stop making SP games. They don't seem to be working" thread?

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Epic published zero of their own games between 1995 and 2009, and zero games made by third parties between 1996 and 2020. Almost all of the games they were known for pre-Fortnite were published by other companies. Most games they've published since 2017 have been either some Fortnite game mode or existing games that they didn't originally fund or publish themselves, but retroactively became the publisher of by acquiring the studios that made them.

You're right. They made their money through licensing their game engine and Fortnite - and has just entered the publishing business (again) in 2020.
I misread their wiki last night.

Guess Epic Games is not that major of a publisher (yet), but they certainly has the talent to become one.

Now tell me you don't consider Autodesk to be on par with Unreal Engine for making video games and we can be friends again.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Many fail, but the cash earned from the hits is too much for them to pass up, unfortunately. They will keep chasing, hoping to find that next Fortnite.

 

[Fahdis]

I hope every live service GaaS fails. I hate this shit so much!

 

[Drizzlehell]

It is a sustainable model but only if you support it with a product that's actually worth playing. Like, seriously? Anthem? That shit was so bad that it was dead before it even rolled out of the gate. Similar story with Avengers.

The problem is that these idiot companies like EA and SquareEnix put zero effort into making a decent game first before trying to vacuum cash out of your wallet. Of course this shit ain't gonna work when people don't want to play a terrible, half-baked game with nothing but a series of embarrassing mistakes and laughable support following in the wake of its release. Most gamers are suckers but luckily most of them aren't total idiots.

Well, except maybe for those who keep buying FIFA, WWE2K, or Madden every single year.

 

[Ronin_7]

It is a sustainable model but only if you support it with a product that's actually worth playing. Like, seriously? Anthem? That shit was so bad that it was dead before it even rolled out of the gate. Similar story with Avengers.

The problem is that these idiot companies like EA and SquareEnix put zero effort into making a decent game first before trying to vacuum cash out of your wallet. Of course this shit ain't gonna work when people don't want to play a terrible, half-baked game with nothing but a series of embarrassing mistakes and laughable support following in the wake of its release. Most gamers are suckers but luckily most of them aren't total idiots.

Well, except maybe for those who keep buying FIFA, WWE2K, or Madden every single year.

Apex is top tier.
FF XIV is top tier.