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[Elios83]

Why do people care so much about 'max brightness'?

I watch movies and play games in a dim room. The brighter the image, the more my eyes suffer.

Not everyone watches TVs only at night in a dark room.
I play a lot during the evenings during the weekend and I'm definitely not turning the lights off at 6pm.

Also higher peak brightness means the ability to better express HDR highlights that on many current OLED TVs are simply lost details.

 

[GymWolf]

QD-OLED seems a good improvement over traditional OLED for brightness and color saturation issues. Burn in will still be a issue

Mini-LED are also great TVs with excellent brightness, HDR and no burn in but the price to pay is a bit of blooming in certain situations.

Microled is best of two worlds but it will take a few years to become consumer friendly so it's useless to wait indeed if you need a new TV right now.

For me, I can imagine buying a QD-OLED in 3-4 years, and then in another 4-5 years I'll switch to microLED. While we all want the holy grail, I think current WOLEDs are already a solid 8/10, and QD-OLEDs are gonna be a solid 9/10, so it's not like we gonna live with shitty TVs for the next decade.

Yeah of course, oled or whatever best tech we have that year, qd oled or whatever they are gonna be called in 3-4 years.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Mini-LED for me.

 

[jasondefaoite]

Probably not seeing blue led has the worst lifespan.

That would be RED, not blue.

At least according to Vincent.

 

[lostinblue]

That would be RED, not blue.

At least according to Vincent.

I don't know who Vincent is.

Green lasts longer, then red then blue. Blue is dead last. RED is not the problem as it's closer to the green lifespan than it is to Blue. As seen in stuff like security lights, dashboard lights, alarm clocks (etc), it's blue that is almost never used.

This actually has nothing to do with the color, but the energy that you have to drive through the diode to get the same brightness. A lot of the light the Blue diode emits is invisible (UV or near UV territory) therefore you have to waste more energy to light it up. More energy spent = smaller lifespan.

Also why all OLED's are brightness limited, because it's quite simple to halve their lifespan otherwise.

 

[jasondefaoite]

I don't know who Vincent is.

Green lasts longer, then red then blue. Blue is dead last. RED is not the problem as it's closer to the green lifespan than it is to Blue. As seen in stuff like security lights, dashboard lights, alarm clocks (etc), it's blue that is almost never used.

This actually has nothing to do with the color, but the energy that you have to drive through the diode to get the same brightness. A lot of the light the Blue diode emits is invisible (UV or near UV territory) therefore you have to waste more energy to light it up. More energy spent = smaller lifespan.

Also why all OLED's are brightness limited, because it's quite simple to halve their lifespan otherwise.

I stand corrected. Vincent is the guy in the video in the initial post of the thread. With his recent videos on QD-OLED, one thing I was wondering about was burn in ... and I"m pretty sure I heard him mention the RED had the lowest lifespan, with blue in the middle and green the best. But a quick google shows that not to be the case. It's blue as you mentioned. Maybe I misheard during one of his videos.

 

[It's all in the wrist]

Point is I’m not investing so much cash, even in OLED to have the kids put their fucking hands on it anyway. Kuro 9th gen is fine until the prices drop.



It’s damn fine in fact for ~12 ish years old tech. Smoke it? Hell naw.

I had that TV. OLED smokes it lol. You get used to a picture, but OLED is just better.

Anyway, I'm dying for 120 hz. These QD prices are going to be absurd, though. And they're not large enough yet (looking for 77").

 

[Tygeezy]

Not everyone watches TVs only at night in a dark room.
I play a lot during the evenings during the weekend and I'm definitely not turning the lights off at 6pm.

Also higher peak brightness means the ability to better express HDR highlights that on many current OLED TVs are simply lost details.

HDR has always been meant for dark room viewing. Dark scenes in HDR are unwatchable in a bright environment and the whole idea of HDR is to see the entire gamut of low luminosity to bright highlights.

 

[Elios83]

HDR has always been meant for dark room viewing. Dark scenes in HDR are unwatchable in a bright environment and the whole idea of HDR is to see the entire gamut of low luminosity to bright highlights.

I was indeed talking about two different points.
HDR in general needs really high brightness to reproduce properly the details it is meant to reproduce and this is true if you are watching movies in a dark room as well. In HDR the peak brightness highlights are intended to be 1000 nits by the creators and not to be mapped to the best the TV can do.

The other point is about a more general usage of the TV. If you use the TV in a normally lit room during the afternoons or evenings you don't want a screen that looks dim and you have to turn off every light source (natural or artificial) to get a decent picture quality. This is the other point where brightness is important.

 

[Tygeezy]

I was indeed talking about two different points.
HDR in general needs really high brightness to reproduce properly the details it is meant to reproduce and this is true if you are watching movies in a dark room as well. In HDR the peak brightness highlights are intended to be 1000 nits by the creators and not to be mapped to the best the TV can do.

The other point is about a more general usage of the TV. If you use the TV in a normally lit room during the afternoons or evenings you don't want a screen that looks dim and you have to turn off every light source (natural or artificial) to get a decent picture quality. This is the other point where brightness is important.

It depends on the director. There are a lot of movies that are 700 nits. You also have movies that are 4k + nits like Mad max fury Road. Despite oled not getting as bright as the brightest lcd's they still do better overall because you don't get any lcd bloom with the bright highlights.

People act like oled is this incredibly dim technology. It's still brighter than a lot of peoples lcd's. the higher end lcd's are the ones that are light canons.

 

[Elios83]

It depends on the director. There are a lot of movies that are 700 nits. You also have movies that are 4k + nits like Mad max fury Road. Despite oled not getting as bright as the brightest lcd's they still do better overall because you don't get any lcd bloom with the bright highlights.

You don't do better overall in HDR because certain HDR details are simply lost because the TV can't reproduce them.
There are many videos proving the point.
And the blooming on modern lcds with many backlight zones is still perceivable only in situations where there are small bright elements on a fully black background otherwise the black quality is really good.

In any case I'm really looking forward to the QD-OLED technology. If a 55" model is available this year for less than 3000$ I might buy it. Otherwise I'd wait next year for cheaper second gen technology.

 

[mitchman]

I don't know who Vincent is.

Green lasts longer, then red then blue. Blue is dead last. RED is not the problem as it's closer to the green lifespan than it is to Blue. As seen in stuff like security lights, dashboard lights, alarm clocks (etc), it's blue that is almost never used.

This actually has nothing to do with the color, but the energy that you have to drive through the diode to get the same brightness. A lot of the light the Blue diode emits is invisible (UV or near UV territory) therefore you have to waste more energy to light it up. More energy spent = smaller lifespan.

Also why all OLED's are brightness limited, because it's quite simple to halve their lifespan otherwise.

Yes, but all the diodes will degrade at the same time, so the "burn-in effect" should be significantly less.

 

[Tygeezy]

You don't do better overall in HDR because certain HDR details are simply lost because the TV can't reproduce them.

You lose that detail with the bloom of LCD.

 

[Elios83]

Yes, but all the diodes will degrade at the same time, so the "burn-in effect" should be significantly less.

I don't think it degrades at the same time because the backlight control is still per pixel so the actual usage depends on the dominant color you're reproducing.
If you're watching always a red logo, the blu diodes of the red sub-pixels will lose efficiency and if you switch to white over time you won't see proper white anymore but you'll see more blu and green where the logo was previously displayed.

You lose that detail with the bloom of LCD.

The average movie is not made of stars or small white subtitles over a fully black screen.
There are highlights also in day time scenes or not super dark scenes where blooming is not existent or perceivable at all.
Don't take the worst case scenario for lcd technology and treat as the default reproduction situation because it's not.
Different technologies have different advantages.

 

[Tygeezy]

The average movie is not made of stars or small white subtitles over a fully black screen.
There are highlights also in day time scenes or not super dark scenes where blooming is not existent or perceivable at all.
Don't take the worst case scenario for lcd technology and treat as the default reproduction situation because it's not.
Different technologies have different advantages.

It doesn't need to be pure black to see the bloom. Vincent from hdtvtest has done side by sides of bright specular highlight detail and lcds would blow out highlights because of the bloom which for all intents and purposes defeats the purpose of higher luminance lcds for hdr.

 

[Elios83]

It doesn't need to be pure black to see the bloom. Vincent from hdtvtest has done side by sides of bright specular highlight detail and lcds would blow out highlights because of the bloom which for all intents and purposes defeats the purpose of higher luminance lcds for hdr.

Vincent is the one who made this video you know:



OLED has its issues. Other technologies have their own advantages.

 

[Tygeezy]

Vincent is the one who made this video you know:



OLED has its issues. Other technologies have their own advantages.

Nothing right now is bright enough. Once we get to to 10k nits then we will star being in the bright enough for specular highlight detail. In the meantime oled is objectively superior for small highlights because it wont blow out the details. LCD is great for bright overall scenes like a beach scene.

 

[Elios83]

Nothing right now is bright enough. Once we get to to 10k nits then we will star being in the bright enough for specular highlight detail. In the meantime oled is objectively superior for small highlights because it wont blow out the details. LCD is great for bright overall scenes like a beach scene.

So you're now moving the goalpost and conceding that HDR is better in bright scenes on LCDs and not everything is made of starry nights over a black sky.
Btw QD-OLED is a step in the right direction, too bad for the burn in.
Micro LED is the real (unfortunately still far) future.

 

[Tygeezy]

So you're now moving the goalpost and conceding that HDR is better in bright scenes on LCDs and not everything is made of starry nights over a black sky.
Btw QD-OLED is a step in the right direction, too bad for the burn in.
Micro LED is the real (unfortunately still far) future.

Conceding that lcd has an advantage in some scenarios isn't moving the goalposts. The problem with the video you posted is it doesn't support your argument of higher peak brightness equals better specular highlight detail. It does with Oled, but with LCD you're blowing out the highlights with the bloom. So even though higher end lcd is brighter, you make out more detail in the highlights with oled.

 

[Elios83]

Conceding that lcd has an advantage in some scenarios isn't moving the goalposts. The problem with the video you posted is it doesn't support your argument of higher peak brightness equals better specular highlight detail. It does with Oled, but with LCD you're blowing out the highlights with the bloom. So even though higher end lcd is brighter, you make out more detail in the highlights with oled.

Higher peak brightness equals better specular highlight details if the overall scene is bright enough so that the highlight isn't engulfed in a total black or super dark zone.
It's precisely the reason why LCDs are better in scenes like the day time beach you mentioned otherwise that couldn't happen.
But hey let's not make this a never ending discussion.
For me both technologies have their own advantages/disadvantages. And it's the reason why companies are still making both.

 

[lostinblue]

Yes, but all the diodes will degrade at the same time, so the "burn-in effect" should be significantly less.

Yes, but LG already employs that technique on their TV's since the beginning. Their OLED's are all white with color filters on top. That sure hasn't saved them from uneven wear/burn-in.

So it's all white, vs all blue. Undoubtedly one of the reasons Samsung has gone this route is to circumvent LG's patents, same with Samsung's "QDCC" (quantum dot color conversion) vs LG's "CF" (color filter). They turned most adversities into theoretic IQ advantages in an impressive engineering tour-de-force but the lifespan disadvantage against other diode colors really can't be defeated. (but it can be mitigated, if they manage to make all their subpixels bigger/tighter against LG's implementation or, that they simply under-drive all the diodes further than LG)

That's not the only factor though, as some subpixels either lose more light in the conversion creating a disbalance (in LG's case, color filters are subtractive, so they nuke a whole spectrum of the light the moment it passes through them) or are simply more used than others (red and white comes to mind as we humans just love saturated and/or bright imagery - that of course can have a hit on the diodes assorted to red and white), hence manufacturers have resorted to making these subpixels different sizes. On LG WRGB OLED's, White LED is the biggest, then Red, then Blue, then Green. White is the biggest, Green is the smallest. It's a balancing act, color fidelity versus wear, both determine the subpixel layout.

 

[Kazekage1981]

is there a comparison video between QD-OLED and MicroLED ?

 

[ParaSeoul]

DF on OLEDs/QD-OLEDs at CES

 

[mitchman]

I don't think it degrades at the same time because the backlight control is still per pixel so the actual usage depends on the dominant color you're reproducing.
If you're watching always a red logo, the blu diodes of the red sub-pixels will lose efficiency and if you switch to white over time you won't see proper white anymore but you'll see more blu and green where the logo was previously displayed.

Well, Vincent said that the diodes will looks brightness uniformly, so far less chance of burn-in (which is already very rare with the last 2 years' models of OLED).

 

[mitchman]

Yes, but LG already employs that technique on their TV's since the beginning. Their OLED's are all white with color filters on top. That sure hasn't saved them from uneven wear/burn-in.

So it's all white, vs all blue. Undoubtedly one of the reasons Samsung has gone this route is to circumvent LG's patents, same with Samsung's "QDCC" (quantum dot color conversion) vs LG's "CF" (color filter). They turned most adversities into theoretic IQ advantages in an impressive engineering tour-de-force but the lifespan disadvantage against other diode colors really can't be defeated. (but it can be mitigated, if they manage to make all their subpixels bigger/tighter against LG's implementation or, that they simply under-drive all the diodes further than LG)

That's not the only factor though, as some subpixels either lose more light in the conversion creating a disbalance (in LG's case, color filters are subtractive, so they nuke a whole spectrum of the light the moment it passes through them) or are simply more used than others (red and white comes to mind as we humans just love saturated and/or bright imagery - that of course can have a hit on the diodes assorted to red and white), hence manufacturers have resorted to making these subpixels different sizes. On LG WRGB OLED's, White LED is the biggest, then Red, then Blue, then Green. White is the biggest, Green is the smallest. It's a balancing act, color fidelity versus wear, both determine the subpixel layout.

LG OLED uses WRGB diodes, hence the name of the technology being WRGB. The white is there to increase the brightness of the panel. I've never seen any info that they use all white diodes, do you have a source for that? See also this video for a closeup.

 

[lostinblue]

LG OLED uses WRGB diodes, hence the name of the technology being WRGB. The white is there to increase the brightness of the panel. I've never seen any info that they use all white diodes, do you have a source for that? See also this video for a closeup.

Sure:

LG will use a white-OLED with color filter design (WOLED-CF, or WRGB). This technology was developed at Kodak and is now owned by LG

Source: https://www.oled-info.com/lg-display-well-start-producing-oled-tvs-2013

WOLED means white organic light emmiting diode. It's separate from the WRGB, RGBW or (more true to form to recent models at least) RWBG monikers which describes the subpixel disposition, you could do amoled with white subpixel, without it being WOLED at all.

 

[IllegalLemon]

Timestamps: ===========
0:00 QD-OLED on top
1:30 Caveat #1-All displays were uncalibrated and in Vivid mode
2:24 Caveat #2-Comparision was against 2021 models
3:33 Caveat #3-Content was chosen to flatter QD-OLEDs strengths more
4:08 QD-OLED Advantage #1- More saturated colors at higher luminance levels than WRGB OLEDs
4:29 Advantage #2- Better viewing angles than WRGB OLEDs (Minor since WRGB OLEDs already have great viewing angles)
5:22 Advantage #3-Better reflection handling

Estimated pricing for QD-OLEDs is thought to be in the $8000+ range.

Qd-oled or QD display as Samsung calls their new panels is a promising new technology that is also being used in the newly announced Alienware qd-oled monitor and the new sony qd-oled tv, both of which use qd displays from Samsung. It's an expensive new tech with a big future ahead of it, kinda like oled was when lg debuted the tech on tvs a little bit over 6 years ago, with a 55 inch costing upwards of 5.5 grand. The tech got cheaper to manufacture as it matured and now tvs with oled tech are much cheaper than they've ever been.

Give qd-oled some time, it's a new and emerging display tech combining the best of both worlds , quantum dots' color expression, extended color gamut and brightness with oled's deep, inky blacks and infinite contrast ratio. It's bound to be expensive because it's still in its infancy and thus could be more expensive to manufacture. As the tech matures and becomes cheaper and easier to manufacture, it'll become more affordable to consumers. That is, assuming that the predicted 8 grand price is the actual price for tvs utilising the first generation of these panels and it doesn't end up a bit cheaper. We'll see though. For now, the future of displays looks bright with this shiny new screen technology!!!

 

[nosferatu93]

oled is the bes thing ever. Funny when high end pc gamer play on shitty monitors that cost more with less features insane

 

[Kazekage1981]

How does Samsungs MiniLED technology compare to TCL OD Zero MiniLED technology? The TCL ODZero is almost as thin as OLED.

I think TCL ODzero would be ideal to use for laptops/tablets/smartphone as a low cost alternative to OLED

 

[Insane Metal]

QD-OLED for me in 20 years

 

[IllegalLemon]

How does Samsungs MiniLED technology compare to TCL OD Zero MiniLED technology? The TCL ODZero is almost as thin as OLED.

I think TCL ODzero would be ideal to use for laptops/tablets/smartphone as a low cost alternative to OLED

It's still unreleased as far as i know and no consumer tv has been released yet that makes use of it. It was supposed to come out in 2021, but tcl went whisper quiet almost before quietly disappearing into the night. Samsung has almost perfected their quantum dot enhanced lcd and the neo qled's of 2021 offered impressive black levels and incredible colour expression and contrast .

They seem to be taking it a step further this year, with quadruple the mini leds per zone and a blacklight tech with 14bit gradation for improved light control, plus, the zero bezel tech they were using exclusively with the 8k neo qled model last year is getting used universally across both 4k & 8k neo qleds of 2022 alongside improved integrated speakers that fire sound both upwards in addition to the sides. Their 2022 neo qled's are what I'm waiting for.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

Pretty expensive. I will hopefully continue to be happy with my C1 until prices drop enough once it needs replacing. Nervous that it will burn in noticeably one day, I do play a lot of certain games. With that said it’s the TV/movie watching screen too so my spouse and I watch varied content.

I think end game is truly micro LED, but right now I have to admit the contrast and response time of OLED is unmatched. Hopefully I am proven wrong and there are big improvements down the line, but regardless I am absolutely loving the C1 for what it is right now.

 

[Kazekage1981]

Does TCL's OD-ZERO technology have any merit besides making Mini-LED as thin as OLED? I think TCL should consider expanding this technology and making it available for other companies to make: Cell phone screens, laptop screens, PC monitor screens, without the high cost of OLED, but holy moly :

 

[ParaSeoul]

Does TCL's OD-ZERO technology have any merit besides making Mini-LED as thin as OLED? I think TCL should consider expanding this technology and making it available for other companies to make: Cell phone screens, laptop screens, PC monitor screens, without the high cost of OLED, but holy moly :

didn't hear much about this except in Digital Trends TCL vid

 

[lostinblue]

Does TCL's OD-ZERO technology have any merit besides making Mini-LED as thin as OLED? I think TCL should consider expanding this technology and making it available for other companies to make: Cell phone screens, laptop screens, PC monitor screens, without the high cost of OLED, but holy moly :

It probably doesn't scale like that for phones and tablets, only for TV's, and perhaps big PC monitors.

I also doubt it's technically as thin or even near, it's probably just the TV that ends up being as thin as an OLED TV. Remember OLED as a tech is foldable, so when you design a TV like that you need to add some extra structure to the chassis or you'll have worse panel uniformity.

On LCD's that structure that improves structure is often the backlight.

 

[Pagusas]

Does TCL's OD-ZERO technology have any merit besides making Mini-LED as thin as OLED? I think TCL should consider expanding this technology and making it available for other companies to make: Cell phone screens, laptop screens, PC monitor screens, without the high cost of OLED, but holy moly :

I was briefly exciting thinking we were getting our first 80" + QDOLED, but nope its just a Mini-LED QLED. whoever gives us the first 80"+ one gets my money, I wish they'd hurry up, this Samsung 82Q8FN is starting to show its age

 

[Trogdor1123]

What is looking like the best value tv for a ps5 this year? Something with vrr.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

All displays were uncalibrated and in Vivid mode

 

[Kazekage1981]

What is RGB-OLED?

 

[iHaunter]

Same advantages and same disadvantages against regular OLED on that front.

IQ will be superior, but there is reason why Apple is not using them on macbooks/ipads. Top brightness will be lower too.

Whites are washed out too. My buddy got a 70'+ C1. We have to turn off subtitles because it washes out literally everything else on the screen. Will never get an LG OLED.

 

[ParaSeoul]

What is RGB-OLED?

WRGB OLED without the white filter. Samsung's first OLED tv from 2013 was an RGB OLED. Couldn't last long and they couldn't figure out a good way to fix it. Its why LG added a white sub pixel to their ones to make WRGB OLEDs.

 

[thebigmanjosh]

What is RGB-OLED?

It's what's used in most OLED phones and reference monitors. WRGB has been used to increase brightness at the expense of color volume, but full RGB is expensive in large sizes and power hungry to drive at 1000 nits. QD-OLED is a stop-gap where it's layers of blue OLEDs with red and green quantum dots.

I don't see TCLs RGB OLED being as good as QD-OLED in terms of picture quality, but will definitely be cheaper.

 

[[Sigma]]

 

[ParaSeoul]

Stopped paying attention to this guy after finding out he comes to conclusions without even seeing the tvs

 

[MastAndo]

So basically I bought a C1 a week before a generational leap in technology was released. Nice going, me. The 55" S95B is almost double the cost of a C1 though, so it's not exactly apples to apples here.

 

[ethomaz]

So basically I bought a C1 a week before a generational leap in technology was released. Nice going, me. The 55" S95B is almost double the cost of a C1 though, so it's not exactly apples to apples here.

It is not a generational leap in tech imo.
It is still OLED with the good and bad… of course they improved some things.

New generation leap should be MicroLED but that well… let’s forget it for some years.

 

[Pagusas]

So basically I bought a C1 a week before a generational leap in technology was released. Nice going, me. The 55" S95B is almost double the cost of a C1 though, so it's not exactly apples to apples here.

I mean your talking a 55" screen, you'll want to replace that with something large anyway sooner than later. I wouldn't sweat it, enjoy the screen for a year or 2, give QDOLED a chance to get a 2nd or 3rd gen out, and by then you'll be ready to buy a big screen.

 

[ParaSeoul]

So basically I bought a C1 a week before a generational leap in technology was released. Nice going, me. The 55" S95B is almost double the cost of a C1 though, so it's not exactly apples to apples here.

Besides the brightness,you still get most of what you get with QD-OLED with WRGB OLED. Wait until the prices come down and more sizes are available.

 

[Petopia]

Dont care if these don't come out with high refresh rate or support display port why bother.

 

[Kazekage1981]

Which one would be better:

QD-OLED Round 1 Fight!

Samsung QD-OLED A95B vs Sony QD-OLED A95K?

Stop the Fomo said that Blue Phosporescent OLED will be utilized by LG by 2024 that will make it brighter without heatsink.

Has anyone seen MicroLED in person? How is MicroLED vs QD-OLED?

I hope MiniLED and OLED will be the new standard for laptop screens, and desktop monitors.