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[HazukiSensei]

Id rather...have more polygons, particles and physics.

They are literally sacrificing more polygons, particles and physics in favor of raytracing and rendering 4k 60.

Not an even trade. Does shit look like what you imagined graphics to look like this late into the gen? No? Then why the fuck do you care about rtx and 4k 60. They are slapping that shit on cross gen graphics because the systems cant handle it.

Hence why this gen sucks ass and everything doesn't look that impressive at all in comparison to leaps of previous gens.

Kinda a lazy way to make a graphical leap IMO. Hence why this gen is dissapointing graphically.

 

[HazukiSensei]

A lot more meaningful than 4k resolution.

And these dumbass gamers today want both at the same time. At 60 fps.

Then wonder why graphics are dissapointing, and are virtually slightly better ps4 graphics.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Id rather...have more polygons, particles and physics.

They are literally sacrificing more polygons, particles and physics in favor of raytracing and rendering 4k 60.

Not an even trade. Does shit look like what you imagined graphics to look like this late into the gen? No? Then why the fuck do you care about rtx and 4k 60. They are slapping that shit on cross gen graphics because the systems cant handle it.

Hence why this gen sucks ass and everything doesn't look that impressive at all in comparison to leaps of previous gens.

Kinda a lazy way to make a graphical leap IMO. Hence why this gen is dissapointing graphically.

So by your logic, inevitably a dev would do more polygons (i mean, Nanite just made that all moot), particles and physics and trounce everyone else right?

The gen sucks ass when devs have the choice to go more "polygons, particles and physics" but after scratching their heads they just decided to pick RDNA's 2 shit RT implementation over the clear better looking alternative.

 

[sertopico]

This deal has to be worth at least 5-10 million for CDPR. The amount of effort they put into this (pushing Nvidia´s hardware) is diametrically opposed to their commitment to fix game elements like out of place NPC animations and the blown up camera exposure when using the car's cockpit.

Might be worth millions but I don't see much effort here, so that they are forced to release a "tech preview" to make nvidia happy, aka an unfinished upgrade, a WIP, since they are showing us a "glimpse of the future" as they said. LOL

Regarding the camera exposure issue, I think the Overdrive Mode will indirectly fix it for those few that can afford it. But there are so many other issues and small things that need attention and never got fixed in 2 years...

 

[OZ9000]

In most games raytracing adds nothing to the visuals other than reflections. We are a generation too early to utilise it for its full benefit.

 

[01011001]

In most games raytracing adds nothing to the visuals other than reflections. We are a generation too early to utilise it for its full benefit.

anything that gets rid of screen space reflections is already good enough for me.

fuck SSR... that shit should have never been invented... and fuck the guy who did!

 

[Liamario]

I think it is meaningful, but not at the massive expense to frame rate that we currently seen. When that aspect is resolved, it can really be a game changer both for gameplay and visuals.

 

[Tarin02543]

I agree, I think DLSS is more important and should be prioritized.

Death Stranding is incredible with it.

 

[crackajack]

AA and AF techniques did cost also quite a bit in their early days (and eg fences sucked) or shadows in Doom3 were imo the last comparable thing that easily crippled performance. Those things were quite obvious though (PS3 shadows compared to PS4 shadows is also night and day), whereas specular maps, baked god rays and whatnot kind of fake RT not that bad, so the benefit of RT costs too much for little actually visible advantage. I guess devs will get a bit better even this gen- engines were not built with RT in mind-, and the tech should mature quite a bit next gen. Maybe we even see specific RT units from AMD or some intel nvidia deviation since just the cheapest all inclusive package might not be the preferred solution and the best RT wins.

 

[Moses85]

You get what you pay for.

AMD, cheap and good value for the price
Nvidia, expensive, great performance but mainstream isnt willing to pay

 

[Buggy Loop]

You get what you pay for.

AMD, cheap and good value for the price
Nvidia, expensive, great performance but mainstream isnt willing to pay

AMD cheap? That boat has sailed a while ago

They’re both stupid expensive now

 

[MagnesD3]

Idk I love the way it looks, If they can do something that looks that good and maintain performance I'm all for it.

 

[Cr1ptkeeper]

Give me raytraced shadows! Shadow (LOD) pop-in that you see in every game is way more distracting than SSR artifacts.
If they could eliminate that and clipping of weapons/gear trough clothes, graphics would look a lot cleaner.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

RT is an amazing feature and it's the future of 3D rendering in games. One day we will achieve modern AAA games rendered entirely by RT, not just shadows or reflections.

I'm confused. What else could RT render that it isn't shadows/reflections/global illumination?

 

[The Cockatrice]

Shadow (LOD) pop-in that you see in every game

RT shadows and reflections have that as well. Some games even allow you to change the culling(view distance) for RT effects such as Ghostwire.

 

[Rat Rage]

It's total bullshit just like "4K".

 

[hlm666]

I'm confused. What else could RT render that it isn't shadows/reflections/global illumination?

caustics, refraction, volumetrics and there's more someone familiar with modern path/ray tracing could probably add.

 

[PianistaMacabro]

Light is just the most important part for any visual. A cube with no texture at all can be beautiful just for the light.....you can't say the same for just a texture or a polygon.
Its photography and cinema.....saying that raytracing is useless is complete nonsense

 

[Umbasaborne]

RT doesn’t ”suck”, it does only insofar as the current gen lacks power.

PS. Path tracing is next…

Cant wait for the path tracing update in cyberpunk, even if means im playing at a variable 60 fps with my 4090 and 13900k

 

[Boss Mog]

I'm confused. What else could RT render that it isn't shadows/reflections/global illumination?

It can render the whole image with enough rays.

 

[Schorschi]

I think at the time when the 5pro and the series xpro is coming ,ray tracing is doing a fine job

 

[blastprocessor]

• Set up geometry, set up your lights and camera, and it just works

Sounds very nice indeed. Wonder if that means they will go back to their bespoke engine in future.

 

[kingyala]

Kinda agree, that talented dev artists can make baked lighting look so much better than most of the weak RTGI implementations we received. Only Metro Exodus did it incredibly well but that game was designed from scratch with RTGI in mind. Most games these days just tackle any RT after and call it day.

Games can look insane without RT as above but I believe RT has blown up recently because it should cut development time but instead big games now take even longer because devs have to use baked as well as RT and the work is twice as much. When the day will come that games only use RTGI or other ray/pathtracing features from the ground up, then this topic will be useless.

and thats years to come cause i bet even ps6 will be using traditional techniques since any advanced hardware you give to devs... they will always find ways to push rasterizing to the max than waste resources on rt... even mark cerny said raytracing wasnt a big discussion when designing ps5 its just not that breakthrough moment yet.. this is the experimental stage where companies make their own technologies and findings to shape the future... this generation solved the data problem in a way with the ssd's the next one will solve the compute problem... meaning more physics, volumetrics and global illumination techniques will be the norm.

 

[64bitmodels]

Id rather...have more polygons, particles and physics.

why do we need more of the former 2. games have enough polys and particles as is, have you seen returnal?

i agree with physics however but that + good RT or even a realistic baked lighting solution is how we advance gaming

 

[64bitmodels]

The gen sucks ass when devs have the choice to go more "polygons, particles and physics" but after scratching their heads they just decided to pick RDNA's 2 shit RT implementation over the clear better looking alternative.

maybe because RDNA2 is on consoles and Lovelace RT isnt???

 

[lame gag1990]

Ray Tracing is in it's infancy but it's only going to get better with time.

 

[Schmendrick]

caustics, refraction, volumetrics and there's more someone familiar with modern path/ray tracing could probably add.

you forgot EVERYTHING else.
The (very far away) end goal is not adding more and more partial RT implementations but to replace raster rendering completely.

I'm confused. What else could RT render that it isn't shadows/reflections/global illumination?

see above.

 

[Buggy Loop]

maybe because RDNA2 is on consoles and Lovelace RT isnt???

Right

But he’s making a case that polygons, particles will trounce RT. I mean… we’re all waiting for it.. should be inevitable according to him. This gen is slow moving as fuck on consoles.

 

[rofif]

I am sure, there are other techniques to be discovered, better and cheaper than Ray Tracing probably. It has it's limitation too

 

[HazukiSensei]

why do we need more of the former 2. games have enough polys and particles as is, have you seen returnal?

i agree with physics however but that + good RT or even a realistic baked lighting solution is how we advance gaming

Enough? Until its matching modern/future cgi...its never enough. And particles? Seriously, high level use of particle effects that look like real life or exaggerated are what will wow you before modern raytracing will.

I wanna see mario looking like the movie coming out. Polygon count is definately higher there, amongst other things.

You act as if graphics reached their peak, use the creative side of your brain and imagine. Better dust, smoke, leaves etc lingering in the air after a gun fight at a high level. Physics of the dust forming around you and staying on clothes, horse steps in dirt terrain form little micro dust kick up.

Those things woild impact how next gen say...cyberpunk looks more than its raytracing.

And as someone said earlier, cgi movies dont even use full raytracing.

 

[HazukiSensei]

Light is just the most important part for any visual. A cube with no texture at all can be beautiful just for the light.....you can't say the same for just a texture or a polygon.
Its photography and cinema.....saying that raytracing is useless is complete nonsense

Yeah but raytracing on a human with a low polygon count and bad physics its interacting with wont look impressive either. That logic only applies to simple objects, hence why old games do better woth raytracing.

Im not saying raytracing or especially pathtracing arent beneficial, i jist think were jumping the gun in terms of visual priorities.

Like...were literally not all that impressed with these cross gen titles why? Because they dont have next gen polygons, particles and physics. Thats why. Not bevause they need more raytracing

 

[01011001]

I am sure, there are other techniques to be discovered, better and cheaper than Ray Tracing probably. It has it's limitation too

raytracing has no real limitations, the hardware is what is limiting raytracing.

a super high end RT GPU will eventually be able to render nearly 100% photorealistic images that will only be distinguishable from reality due to unrealistic animations.

most car ads are rendered that way and look basically 100% real, because it's relatively easy to properly animate a car, so the animations won't give it away that it's not a real car.

 

[HazukiSensei]

In most games raytracing adds nothing to the visuals other than reflections. We are a generation too early to utilise it for its full benefit.

Agreed lol especially when gamers are calling for 4k 60 on top of it.

Polygons, particles,physics and animations. We need more of that

 

[01011001]

Agreed lol especially when gamers are calling for 4k 60 on top of it.

Polygons, particles,physics and animations. We need more of that

we don't really no... that's why you don't really see a big difference between last gen games and current gen games.

 

[64bitmodels]

Enough? Until its matching modern/future cgi...its never enough

these days you either have to be playing on low settings or carefully surveying the screen in order to notice one single polygon, games have gotten so good it's impossible to see them in regular gameplay. I'd say that's enough.

And particles? Seriously, high level use of particle effects that look like real life or exaggerated are what will wow you before modern raytracing will.

yep. We got plenty of them in Returnal and that's one of the most impressive and visually pleasing games of the current gen

I wanna see mario looking like the movie coming out. Polygon count is definately higher there, amongst other things.

Never in your lifetime. Nintendo will reach graphical fidelity like that by 2080 when we're all dead or senile

 

[Schmendrick]

Yeah but raytracing on a human with a low polygon count and bad physics its interacting with wont look impressive either. That logic only applies to simple objects, hence why old games do better woth raytracing.

Im not saying raytracing or especially pathtracing arent beneficial, i jist think were jumping the gun in terms of visual priorities.

Like...were literally not all that impressed with these cross gen titles why? Because they dont have next gen polygons, particles and physics. Thats why. Not bevause they need more raytracing

the best and most detailed geometry looks like ass without correct lighting and shadowing. So you either bake that and have to play in a static diorama like the LoU games where every dynamic object then stands out like a sore thumb or you compromise to get both working like UE5s Lumen/Nanite tandem.

 

[01011001]

the best and most detailed geometry looks like ass without correct lighting and shadowing. So you either bake that and have to play in a static diorama like the LoU games where every dynamic object then stands out like a sore thumb or you compromise to get both working like UE5s Lumen/Nanite tandem.

yeah, people don't understand that the environment in TLOU2 and games with similar looks are actually looking as good as they do due to raytracing.

the baked lighting is raytraced, it's simply not done in real time, which is why anything that moves looks out of place.

the next step is to make it all real time so that everything in the scene looks as good as the statc objects

 

[rofif]

raytracing has no real limitations, the hardware is what is limiting raytracing.

a super high end RT GPU will eventually be able to render nearly 100% photorealistic images that will only be distinguishable from reality due to unrealistic animations.

most car ads are rendered that way and look basically 100% real, because it's relatively easy to properly animate a car, so the animations won't give it away that it's not a real car.

This can’t just be it. Oh hey we have perfect cgi we only need more power. There is more to it. Movies use sooooo much more techniques and tricks to get better cgi

 

[Roufianos]

Seems like a hideous waste of resources from what I've explained so far.

 

[Torrent of Pork]

I'm of the opinion that at least on Series X, and PS5 60fps is the minimum requirement. I will sacrifice whatever it takes in graphical fidelity to achieve that framerate.

 

[JMarcell]

It's no meaningful enough to justify keeping it enabled on most games, at least on PC, because of the COLOSSAL performance loss that comes with it. Even on most powerful machines with the most beefy videocards.

 

[01011001]

This can’t just be it. Oh hey we have perfect cgi we only need more power. There is more to it. Movies use sooooo much more techniques and tricks to get better cgi

the main one is still raytracing.
you simply can not have natural lighting without raytracing, you can not have realistic reflections without raytracing, and you can not have next gen looking games with dynamic environments without raytracing.

you can fake all of that relatively well enough if your environments are almost completely static, but if you actually wanna have more dynamic games then you also need raytracing to keep the visuals on the same level as we are used to.

without raytracing you couldn't make a game look as good as TLOU2 while also introducing more physics based stuff and more interactivity, because games like that could only look as good in the past due to their static lighting and limited interactibility.
because the lighting in those games IS RAYTRACED, it's simply traced offline and then baked into the static environment.

so without raytracing we have 2 options.
1: stay as static as past games
2: be more dynamic but look worse than past games

rasterization is at its absolute limit, its literally just adding more detail here and there and increasing resolutions of effects. but in the end you can't do anything better than the best looking last gen games with it.

with UE5's performance oriented Lumen settings we will see the first games that actually look next gen, and they will look next gen due to raytracing.

also by the time the next console gen is out, we will probably have the hardware to easily light everything with raytracing no matter what.

hell, CD Project will soon release an almost fully pathtraced version of Cyberpunk that will be actually playable on modern PC hardware... it might not run amazingly well, but it will be playable.
it will most likely be the first new "Crysis moment" we will have in 15 years.

and if today's PCs can run pathtraced Cyberpunk, then next gen consoles will too.

 

[Danknugz]

it's a complete waste of resources on consoles and belongs only in PC which is where all the real next gen tech is.

arguably the same could be said for VR.

 

[Schmendrick]

hell, CD Project will soon release an almost fully pathtraced version of Cyberpunk that will be actually playable on modern PC hardware... it might not run amazingly well, but it will be playable.
it will most likely be the first new "Crysis moment" we will have in 15 years.

and if today's PCs can run pathtraced Cyberpunk, then next gen consoles will too.

Eeeeeeh....
I'd recommend a closer look on what the PR guys call "Pathtracing" in that case. (Hint, they lie)

 

[rofif]

the main one is still raytracing.
you simply can not have natural lighting without raytracing, you can not have realistic reflections without raytracing, and you can not have next gen looking games with dynamic environments without raytracing.

you can fake all of that relatively well enough if your environments are almost completely static, but if you actually wanna have more dynamic games then you also need raytracing to keep the visuals on the same level as we are used to.

without raytracing you couldn't make a game look as good as TLOU2 while also introducing more physics based stuff and more interactivity, because games like that could only look as good in the past due to their static lighting and limited interactibility.

so without raytracing we have 2 options.
1: stay as static as past games
2: be more dynamic but look worse than past games

rasterization is at its absolute limit, its literally just adding more detail here and there and increasing resolutions of effects. but in the end you can't do anything better than the best looking last gen games with it.

with UE5's performance oriented Lumen settings we will see the first games that actually look next gen, and they will look next gen due to raytracing.

also by the time the next console gen is out, we will probably have the hardware to easily light everything with raytracing no matter what.

hell, CD Project will soon release an almost fully pathtraced version of Cyberpunk that will be actually playable on modern PC hardware... it might not run amazingly well, but it will be playable.
it will most likely be the first new "Crysis moment" we will have in 15 years.

and if today's PCs can run pathtraced Cyberpunk, then next gen consoles will too.

I don't mind static and tricks if overall we get better graphics.
Uncharted 4 or tlou2 both are static and have most stuff baked but still have plenty of somewhat dynamic scenes like vick posted.

Or what Horizon2 engine is doing with like 16 time of day bakes.

If you watch some time lapses of forbidden west, there are "clear" points of change but there are a lot more of those compared to first game.

 

[01011001]

Eeeeeeh....
I'd recommend a closer look on what the PR guys call "Pathtracing" in that case. (Hint, they lie)

well pretty sure all of the lighting (including reflections) is raytraced with no screen space fallbacks. unless I heard wrong...
so it's almost fully pathtraced.
the difference between fully pathtraced and rasterized geometry with 100% raytraced lighting is negligible for the most part.

 

[01011001]

I don't mind static and tricks if overall we get better graphics.
Uncharted 4 or tlou2 both are static and have most stuff baked but still have plenty of somewhat dynamic scenes like vick posted.

Or what Horizon2 engine is doing with like 16 time of day bakes.

If you watch some time lapses of forbidden west, there are "clear" points of change but there are a lot more of those compared to first game.

well yeah, but the worlds here aren't really that interactive.

if you wanted to have destructible buildings for example, and you used traditional lighting for the game, the lighting would look off as soon as parts of the building were missing, if notnright out of the bat, because you can't precalculate details like that.
it would take tousands of different versions of the baked lighting to pull that off somewhat convincingly.

but the examples you use are fundamentally last gen games, and the way they look and run on PS5 is basically the limit of what can be done with this tech.

 

[Danknugz]

i just googled path tracing vs ray tracing because i have no idea what i'm talking about and apparently pathtracing is more resource intensive than ray tracing and involves more rays and calculations

https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2022/03/23/what-is-path-tracing/

 

[rofif]

well yeah, but the worlds here aren't really that interactive.

if you wanted to have destructible buildings for example, and you used traditional lighting for the game, the lighting would look off as soon as parts of the building were missing, if notnright out of the bat, because you can't precalculate details like that.
it would take tousands of different versions of the baked lighting to pull that off somewhat convincingly.

but the examples you use are fundamentally last gen games, and the way they look and run on PS5 is basically the limit of what can be done with this tech.

yeah I know.
There is no reason we cannot have full GI in games nowadays.
Metro Exodus is doing that at 1440p+ at 60fps. on consoles no problem. It really is the best RT game imo

 

[Schmendrick]

so it's almost fully pathtraced.

Uh no, not even close. We're still just talking lighting. That is worlds away from a general pathtrace renderer... Which to this day would probably not run at all in real time despite Nvidias little demos