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[AquaticSquirrel]

https://adoredtv.com/amd-confirms-rx-6000-series-will-support-existing-ray-tracing-titles/

AMD will support all ray tracing titles using industry-based standards, including the Microsoft DXR API and the upcoming Vulkan raytracing API. Games making of use of proprietary raytracing APIs and extensions will not be supported.

AMD Marketing

So essentially this means any games using straight up DXR/Vulkan RT should work no problem, but any using proprietary (Nvidia) extensions/solutions (some RTX specific stuff?) won't work out of the box.

This means if a game has released with the proprietary Nvidia extensions, API or tech then the game would need to be updated by the developers to support DXR/Vulkan RT which would allow it to work on AMD/Intel cards.

Not surprising that Nvidia would go this route of taking an open standard and trying to extend it with their own proprietary stuff to lock out the competition. We will most likely see this on Nvidia sponsored RTX titles, this is likely why CyberPunk also won't support RT at launch on AMD GPUs. It is essentially paying the developers to lockout RT functionality on the competition's cards, which is especially funny given that the RT technology/APIs are based on open standards designed specifically to work cross platform.

Reminds me of 90's MS tactics with the whole "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" mentality, but this shouldn't be 100% surprisingly as Nvidia have been doing this kind of thing for a long time.

I don't know if there is a clear list which games are pure DXR/Vulkan RT implementations and which use some of Nvidia's inhouse tech on top of that. It looks like there will definitely be some (purposefully designed) confusion in the coming weeks for gamers until we figure out what is what.

 

[gspat]

You were expecting anything different?

 

[M1chl]

Hmm, issue is that nVidia is paying their own money on R&D to make this as easy as possible for devs. I still remmeber AMD OpenCL initiative for GPGPU and even if it's fast (easily being seen in crypto mining), it's not really that dev friendly as nVidia's CUDA.

 

[AquaticSquirrel]

You were expecting anything different?

Initially? Yes, afterall with everything about RT being based on Open APIs designed specifically to be cross vendor almost everyone expected RT games to simply "work" as they should. I'm not surprised, given this is Nvidia we are talking about, simply disappointed that we are still going through this kind of shit from Nvidia in 2020.

It is essentially paying developers to remove a feature in their game from Nvidia's competition. Without Nvidia's "partnership" if these games were using RT they would be using DXR/Vulkan RT cleanly and work on any GPU as they should.

It simply means that instead of simply offering a better product to beat the competition you try to lock out features/performance from the competition to make yourself look better. Kind of like in a race being afraid you might lose so paying someone to hit your rival in the knee with a crow bar to ensure you might win.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

If this extends to Cyberpunk 2077, then a lot of informed people will forego the RX 6000 Series.

 

[AquaticSquirrel]

If this extends to Cyberpunk 2077, then a lot of informed people will forego the RX 6000 Series.

That is Nvidia's plan all along. And this is already confirmed for CyberPunk at launch.

Will CyberPunk support normal DXR/Vulkan RT sometime after launch with a patch or update? Possibly, it depends on the terms and conditions of the agreement they signed with Nvidia. I would expect best case scenario a proper RT update is released that unlocks the functionality on non Nvidia cards possibly a few months after release.

Worst case scenario is the contract stipulates indefinite RT lockout for non Nvidia cards. I don't see this one as realistic but depends on how much the deal benefits CDPR and how much they care about their customers.

 

[reksveks]

Cyberpunk 2077 Will Support Ray Tracing On Nvidia Hardware At Launch

Cyberpunk 2077’s ray tracing will only work on Nvidia hardware when it launches later in November, which means it won't work on next-gen consoles.

www.thegamer.com

Take the source with a pinch of salt

 

[BluRayHiDef]

Cyberpunk 2077 Will Support Ray Tracing On Nvidia Hardware At Launch

Cyberpunk 2077’s ray tracing will only work on Nvidia hardware when it launches later in November, which means it won't work on next-gen consoles.

www.thegamer.com

Take the source with a pinch of salt

Well, that's it. Glad I've gotten RTX cards.

 

[00_Zer0]

Someone on GAF told me RTX wasn't proprietary. Guess Black_Stride was wrong.

Quake 2 RTX thread

 

[llien]

We need a list of games with "API / NV's proprietary crap" checked.

You were expecting anything different?

I was expecting that J.Huang would remember how he killed OpenGL and would not try it with RT, which is barely present for anything but superbasic effects nobody cares about anyhow.

This is bad (in fact terrible) news for RT not AMD fans. It means that niche market even smaller and that you have to develop code for each GPU manufacturer, hardly something a sane game developer would do (for free at least).

How much "suffering" of the actual graphics it could cause to non green cards, we'll see. I'd expect it to be akin to WD, barely noticeable.

 

[ZywyPL]

This is bad (in fact terrible) news for RT not AMD fans.

So let's be clear - it's bad (in fact terrible) than all Turing/Ampere owners can enjoy RT effects in all released so far and soon to be release titles, while it's suppose to be a great news that the feature might not even be available at all for the upcoming Big Navi cards? Man, I'm reading your daily bullshit posts, wondering every time how far can this dude go, but you just went full retard right here, it's just.... I'm out.

 

[MadchesterManc]

I was under the impression that current raytracing was just DXR anyway with Nvidia throwing a compatibility layer over the top for their proprietary solution. Guess that assumption was wrong

 

[GHG]

This is such a cluster fuck and does nothing but hinder the adoption of new graphics technologies.

We need to compile a list of games that will/won't be compatible ASAP.

Cyberpunk 2077 Will Support Ray Tracing On Nvidia Hardware At Launch

Cyberpunk 2077’s ray tracing will only work on Nvidia hardware when it launches later in November, which means it won't work on next-gen consoles.

www.thegamer.com

Take the source with a pinch of salt

If some of these deals also lock consoles out of having ray tracing because the consoles use AMD hardware then it's really fucked up.

 

[ZywyPL]

If some of these deals also lock consoles out of having ray tracing because the consoles use AMD hardware then it's really fucked up.

It can be even worse than that - imagine RT being availabe on PC on NV GPUs, on both consoles, but not on AMD PC cards... I don;t even know who would look worse in such scenario, AMD or NV....

 

[llien]

Not surprising that Nvidia would go this route of taking an open standard and trying to extend it with their own proprietary stuff to lock out the competition.

This is how OpenGL was killed.

 

[GHG]

It can be even worse than that - imagine RT being availabe on PC on NV GPUs, on both consoles, but not on AMD PC cards... I don;t even know who would look worse in such scenario, AMD or NV....

That would just be pathetic from Nvidia.

Hopefully that won't be the case and RT will be available for all compatible hardware going forwards.

AMD are also to be here - being so late yo market with RT has enabled this situation to arise.

 

[AquaticSquirrel]

This is how OpenGL was killed.

I think the landscape looks a little different this time. I would imagine most of the RT enabled games released so far will most likely work on AMD/Intel GPUs. I would imagine, at least at the moment that the number of titles that are RTX only is probably small. There is also the possibility for DXR/Vulkan RT being added to these titles later with an update if the developers so choose/are allowed by contract with Nvidia.

Secondly, console ports, especially those from Xbox Series X should also use DXR 1.1 and be pretty easy to port to PC. So expect 90% of those not to use Nvidia proprietary RTX stuff unless the PC port is literally sponsored by Nvidia, which will be rare I would assume.

Finally, the developer ecosystem is different now with Open Source projects being huge in the development sphere (gaming and no gaming), most companies and developers having a preference for Open Source technologies and standards, especially when they are cross vendor/platform supported. Nobody likes to write the same code twice. Companies are open sourcing previously closed source technologies.

This move from Nvidia is a very 90's tech/software market kind of move. I don't think it will play out the way OpenGL did for example, especially not with MS being behind DXR/Direct X 12 and wanting to reduce fuckery. DXR is not going anywhere I imagine.

In the end I see DXR/Vulkan RT winning out in the end and having way more titles supported than Nvidia's proprietary tech. However with we may some some sprinkling of moneyhats with a few tentpole games every so often such as CyberPunk to try and upsell Nvidia GPUs vs the competition.

If AMD starts to gain more GPU marketshare this gen and onwards, expect a lot of pissed off consumers brigading Twitter etc... of companies that do accept these moneyhats and giving them hell potentially.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

In this specific case I'm not mad at Nvidia. If we had to wait for AMD, raytracing would still be ten years away.

 

[Black_Stride]

Someone on GAF told me RTX wasn't proprietary. Guess Black_Stride was wrong.

Quake 2 RTX thread

Really you gonna call me out and not have the balls to actually tag me.

Lets see the post you talking about hey?

[QUOTE="Black_Stride

Pretty much.
In game Ive only seen Metro Exodus make specific mention of RTX, but they heavily favor Nvidia tech since way back when so no real surprise there....it even uses Hairworks.
In game its usually just Raytracing or DXR, and I guess soon VulkanRT.
The RTX labeling is purely marketing from Nvidia, developers dont say any of that stuff in the actual games because they know their game is hardware agnostic. It will be curious what Metro Exodus does when AMD and Intel DXR capable GPUs hit the market, they will likely make an update to change the wording.

^RTX mentioned in Metro Exodus.

^In Control, it just says Ray Tracing.

^In Battlefield they just use DXR.






Lets read that post together and see what Metro Exodus does.

Games using DXR will allow DXR to be on with any card thats DXR capable.

As I said in the post, RTX in games such as Metro might be using RTX specific stuff so when other DXR capable cards show up we would need to know how they handle that stuff.
As far as we know Metro could get an update that changes the wording.
We dont know what base API Metro Exodus is using.

If at its core its still just DXR there should be no reason the game wont allow raytracing to be turned on, might have to force some ini cheats or something but DXR is DXR.

 

[llien]

...the number of titles that are RTX only is probably small...

Entire number of titles is, cough...

Tell me, when there is an API available, why on earth would you do your development using proprietary extensions?

So expect 90% of those not to use Nvidia proprietary RTX stuff

I expect 98% them to do what EPIC did, which is not to use any hardware RT at all:

 

[AquaticSquirrel]

Entire number of titles is, cough...

Tell me, when there is an API available, why on earth would you do your development using proprietary extensions?


I expect 98% them to do what EPIC did, which is not to use any hardware RT at all:

I get what you mean but I'm talking about games that already have RT enabled on consoles are (in 99% of cases) not going to disable their DXR implementation in favor of some proprietary Nvidia tech that they have to recode and will only work on Nvidia GPUs, the other 1% are the ones that the PC port will be moneyhatted by Nvidia to include their BS

 

[ZywyPL]

This is how OpenGL was killed.

Now look where OpenGL is and where is Nvidia. It's totally unrelated, one doesn't affect the other, if games will start using standard DXR/VRT solutions, NV already has products that are fully compatible with those - as of now they have 100% market share when it comes to RT hardware, and the number of their devices on the market is only growing every single day, so it's the others that need to adjust, not We have CP2007 right around the corner (hopefully), it's one of the most anticipated games of the decade, many many people will upgrade their rigs just for that single title,, just as they did previously for TWC3, exactly with RT in mind this tiem around, this game alone will will be the "to be or not to be" for Big Navi cards, depending on their RT performance, if it will even be there as it turns out.

 

[nosseman]

AMD should offer a "compatibility mode" where you can run the games that have RTX and just implement the standard stuff and throw the rest of the RTX-commands away.

This means a couple of things can happen:

1. Nothing (no raytracing)

2. Some raytracing

3. Full raytracing

Depending on how the developer implemented the raytracing.

 

[llien]

I get what you mean but I'm talking about games that already have RT enabled on consoles are (in 99% of cases) not going to disable their DXR implementation in favor of some proprietary Nvidia tech that they have to recode and will only work on Nvidia GPUs, the other 1% are the ones that the PC port will be moneyhatted by Nvidia to include their BS

What are those games? How many of them even exist?
And I also wonder, what API is used on PS5.

 

[Rikkori]

I'm gonna take a guess and say this affects only Quake RTX most likely, because that is very reliant on specific paths done by nvidia. Maybe even Crysis Remastered, but I'm not so sure about that.

Rest are DXR to my knowledge.

 

[AquaticSquirrel]

What are those games? How many of them even exist?
And I also wonder, what API is used on PS5.

PS5 uses their own custom API. Are you asking me which console games support RT that we know about so far?

I'm not 100% of a complete list, I know that Watch Dogs, DMC5: SE, RE8: Village, Ratched and Clank all support RT on consoles. I doubt we will see DMC5: SE ported to PC and R&C is up in the air but the others definitely will be. Is Watch Dogs already out?

Plus we know that Godfall and Dirt 5 support RT and also DXR so they will definitely support AMD GPUs. There are probably tons of confirmed games with RT on the consoles coming in the next few months and that list will probably grow in time. I don't have an exact list though if that is what you are asking, I don't follow the console stuff super closely.

Can anyone else provide a list of confirmed XSX/PS5 games with RT?

 

[AquaticSquirrel]

It is unfortunate that we don't have a clear list of titles on PC at the moment and whether or not they use proprietary Nvidia tech for their Ray Tracing. Makes the whole thing very confusing for consumers.

We know based on the leaked benchmark that Shadow of the Tomb Raider will work, Battlefield V and CoD: Modern Warfare are likely in the same boat as they don't specifically mention RTX anywhere and they are huge games that live by their large player bases and wouldn't intentionally piss them off using proprietary stuff. We know Godfall and Dirt 5 will work. And Minecraft will definitely work as that is owned by MS and uses DXR.

We know that CyberPunk won't work, at least not at launch on AMD cards. Control and Metro Exodus are up in the air as they are both heavily sponsored Nvidia titles. We won't know until review day. Quake II I think probably won't work on AMD either.

I'm assuming Watch Dogs does work, as Ubisoft again doesn't seem the type to limit their playerbase features and they have a good relationship with AMD so I assume this is a good bet.

Outside of that? I've honestly no idea, it really sucks that we don't have clear information on this from the developers or in a featureset checklist or something.

 

[llien]

Can anyone else provide a list of confirmed XSX/PS5 games with RT?

I was actually asking for PC games, came across this:

All ray tracing games on PC (Nvidia RTX and AMD Radeon) | Digital Trends

Nvidia RTX ray tracing helps the lighting in games look more realistic, but only certain games support the feature. We rounded up all of them.

www.digitaltrends.com

looks like... 20- or so, when including upcoming games like CP and WoW.

 

[AquaticSquirrel]

I was actually asking for PC games, came across this:

All ray tracing games on PC (Nvidia RTX and AMD Radeon) | Digital Trends

Nvidia RTX ray tracing helps the lighting in games look more realistic, but only certain games support the feature. We rounded up all of them.

www.digitaltrends.com

looks like... 20- or so, when including upcoming games like CP and WoW.

Thanks! Yeah it will be difficult to know which of those contain the proprietary Nvidia tech and which don't.

Although I believe Doom Eternal does not support RT yet, it is programmed in Vulkan and the Vulkan RT functionality only became available in the API recently.

Supposedly they will release a patch to include RT at some point, given it will use Vulkan RT I'm assuming it will work on AMD/Intel GPUs no problem when it eventually hits.

 

[00_Zer0]

Really you gonna call me out and not have the balls to actually tag me.

Lets see the post you talking about hey?

Really you gonna call me out and not have the balls to actually tag me.

Lets see the post you talking about hey?

[QUOTE="Black_Stride

Pretty much.
In game Ive only seen Metro Exodus make specific mention of RTX, but they heavily favor Nvidia tech since way back when so no real surprise there....it even uses Hairworks.
In game its usually just Raytracing or DXR, and I guess soon VulkanRT.
The RTX labeling is purely marketing from Nvidia, developers dont say any of that stuff in the actual games because they know their game is hardware agnostic. It will be curious what Metro Exodus does when AMD and Intel DXR capable GPUs hit the market, they will likely make an update to change the wording.

^RTX mentioned in Metro Exodus.

^In Control, it just says Ray Tracing.

^In Battlefield they just use DXR.






Lets read that post together and see what Metro Exodus does.

Games using DXR will allow DXR to be on with any card thats DXR capable.

As I said in the post, RTX in games such as Metro might be using RTX specific stuff so when other DXR capable cards show up we would need to know how they handle that stuff.
As far as we know Metro could get an update that changes the wording.
We dont know what base API Metro Exodus is using.

If at its core its still just DXR there should be no reason the game wont allow raytracing to be turned on, might have to force some ini cheats or something but DXR is DXR.

I misunderstood what you were saying. You first told me this and then never noticed the follow up posts. I apologize.

Pretty much every game currently with raytracing is using DXR, so if your GPU supports DXR then yes it will just work regardless of who the manufacturer is.

So it's not "pretty much everything using ray tracing is using DXR." Since Nvidia are seemingly using proprietary RTX ray tracing extensions on there cards then every game will have to be officially patched or tinkered with by end user to make it work with DXR open standard.
It's not about having the balls to tag. I do not know how, if you teach me I will tag anyone that I mention in post from now on. Not here to argue. Also how do we tag full posts from other threads to put in a different thread.

 

[michaelius]

We need a list of games with "API / NV's proprietary crap" checked.



I was expecting that J.Huang would remember how he killed OpenGL and would not try it with RT, which is barely present for anything but superbasic effects nobody cares about anyhow.

This is bad (in fact terrible) news for RT not AMD fans. It means that niche market even smaller and that you have to develop code for each GPU manufacturer, hardly something a sane game developer would do (for free at least).

How much "suffering" of the actual graphics it could cause to non green cards, we'll see. I'd expect it to be akin to WD, barely noticeable.

Last time I checked OpenGL died because AMD barely supported it so devs prefered to use something that works on everything and not just 70-80% of the market. Nvidia was only company that cared about that API.

 

[FireFly]

There is still a chance Cyberpunk 2077 will work with ray tracing on AMD cards at launch, since it is powered by DXR, which is vendor neutral:

Cyberpunk 2077: Ray-Traced Effects Revealed, DLSS 2.0 Supported, Playable On GeForce NOW

See a new ray-traced trailer and screenshots, learn more about the PC ray tracing effects, and discover how you’ll be able to play Cyberpunk 2077 across all your devices with GeForce NOW.

www.nvidia.com

When the CDPR art director made his comments, RDNA 2 cards hadn't been announced yet, so CDPR either didn't have access to these cards or were under NDA.

 

[inflation]

https://adoredtv.com/amd-confirms-rx-6000-series-will-support-existing-ray-tracing-titles/



So essentially this means any games using straight up DXR/Vulkan RT should work no problem, but any using proprietary (Nvidia) extensions/solutions (some RTX specific stuff?) won't work out of the box.

This means if a game has released with the proprietary Nvidia extensions, API or tech then the game would need to be updated by the developers to support DXR/Vulkan RT which would allow it to work on AMD/Intel cards.

Not surprising that Nvidia would go this route of taking an open standard and trying to extend it with their own proprietary stuff to lock out the competition. We will most likely see this on Nvidia sponsored RTX titles, this is likely why CyberPunk also won't support RT at launch on AMD GPUs. It is essentially paying the developers to lockout RT functionality on the competition's cards, which is especially funny given that the RT technology/APIs are based on open standards designed specifically to work cross platform.

Reminds me of 90's MS tactics with the whole "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" mentality, but this shouldn't be 100% surprisingly as Nvidia have been doing this kind of thing for a long time.

I don't know if there is a clear list which games are pure DXR/Vulkan RT implementations and which use some of Nvidia's inhouse tech on top of that. It looks like there will definitely be some (purposefully designed) confusion in the coming weeks for gamers until we figure out what is what.

FYI from OpenGL time to now Vulkan APIs, there are always extensions supported by different groups. Not a new thing.

 

[llien]

OpenGL died because AMD barely supported it

Oh, so evil AMD didn't support Team Filthy Green's proprietary extensions?
That's evil lvl 99, I'm 7/10 outraged!

 

[Rentahamster]

Now imagine of it was RTX Hairworks!



Buildzoid was right.

 

[Ascend]

It's TWIMTBP and GameWorks all over again. Not unexpected, but, this is exactly why I cannot support nVidia, and especially cannot support people blindly buying nVidia.

Thankfully, most AAA games are using DXR as far as I'm aware, albeit still at too high a performance cost. That being said, DXR 1.1 should become more prevalent on the short term, which should also be good for RT performance.

 

[Black_Stride]

So it's not "pretty much everything using ray tracing is using DXR." Since Nvidia are seemingly using proprietary RTX ray tracing extensions on there cards then every game will have to be officially patched or tinkered with by end user to make it work with DXR open standard.
It's not about having the balls to tag. I do not know how, if you teach me I will tag anyone that I mention in post from now on. Not here to argue. Also how do we tag full posts from other threads to put in a different thread.

Cleaned up your post with what im assuming really mattered.

On Topic

Its literally "pretty much everything" thats using DXR and/or hardware agnostic Raytracing.
I mentioned Metro Exodus because they specifically mention RTX which makes me think they are using something directly from the RTX pipeline, QuakeRTX i believe is the same.

But pretty much everything else is using DXR or something so indeed any DXR capable card will be able to activate DXR in those games.

We dont know what specific features Metro Exodus is using that "requires" it to be an RTX card.....we still dont even know if with an AMD DXR card you will still be able to activate it......AMD might simply be avoiding saying RTX because you dont want to talk about your competitions technology.

But my original statement of "pretty much everything" is using DXR is still true.

Off head.
Metro
Quake RTX
Wolfenstein Youngbloods

Are the only games that have explicitly said "must be RTX card"
The fact you can activate Raytracing and DXR on none RTX cards in most games is proof it isnt RTX specific.

Youngbloods had RTX only in the initial patch notes like this:
Wolfenstein: Youngblood only supports ray tracing on GeForce RTX GPUs at this time due to several bugs and performance issues
Source: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/wolfenstein-youngblood-ray-tracing-nvidia-dlss-highlights/

I havent kept up with the patchnotes of that game because I dont play it.


And even with Metro Exodus, we have seen RTX running on none RTX cards which again makes me very suspicious of any sort of RTX specific features in it.

I think its safe to assume the game would allow the game to run with "RTX" without needing Nvidia specific RT cores featured in RTX cards.

 

[Patrick S.]

Sooner or later there'll be a wrapper for RTX games.

 

[llien]

Wolfenstein: Youngblood only supports ray tracing on GeForce RTX GPUs at this time due to several bugs and performance issues
Source: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/wolfenstein-youngblood-ray-tracing-nvidia-dlss-highlights/

This is a perfect answer to "why even bother with proprietary, when standard API is available".

 

[YCoCg]

Well, that's it. Glad I've gotten RTX cards.

"Well. that's it. Glad I've gotten RTX cards."