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Return to Monkey Island, calm down after being insulted by a fan for your art style.

xrnzaaas

Member
The art style looks like a cheap flash game and it was likely picked for budget reasons. I hate it, the game instantly dropped to deep sale territory for me. Ron should accept criticism since it's not all childish hate from the fans of the series (and they're going to be the vast majority of the buyers).
 

Fake

Member
IMO he is projecting and devs are taking advantage of this sittuation.

There are trolls and toxic people all over Twitter and reddit, but somehow he is generalizate his fanbase. Making a mix of people that hate this artstyle and the trolls, simple calling 'haters'. Trolls are not gamers. They simply took their word or their action and classify as a gamer because, "bruh he is toxic so he must be a gamer".


I find this artstyle horrible, but never going after devs for that. If you look at some response, you know what I'm talking about. Even blame people that don't like it for death treaths.


I don't fall for this. Bullying devs have no place in gaming, but the way he generalizate folks with valid critic neither.

 
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sol_bad

Member
I don't remember people saying Guacamelee looking cheap, both games have a great and unique art style.
 

Saber

Member
Most "Fans" are pieces of shit, Internet troll babys still living at their parents. I am not a big fan of the new artstyle too, but this is just pathetic. Gilbert has every right to design the game how he envisions it. I feel bad for him.

While I agree, people have every right to give valid criticism. Saying "design envision" as an excuse to give garbage art is not something I would defend either. Also, using the bad side of internet for generalization doesn't help.
 
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radewagon

Member
I feel like this all could have been avoided if Ron had watched Ralph Breaks the Internet. I mean, if Wreck-it Ralph can learn to ignore mean spirited comments on the internet, then surely a seasoned game developer can do the same.

Also...

LOL. . . I'm just playing. It objectively sucks, but I don't care. I'll play the game if it's any good.
 

ANDS

Thought gaf was racist. Now knows better, honorary gaffer 2022
I think the new artstlye looks fine. The older art style looked "real" in the same way EC Comics looked "real": a nice pulpy look to it. The new art style looks similarly pulpy and "real." "Nickelodeon Cartoon" is just absurd.

Of course he has, just as every fan has the right to have their opinion about it.

I imagine it is the form that these opinions take that is the issue. . .not that people have them. Obviously.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
that was done by Gilbert ON PURPOSE to SHOCK AND SUBVERT EXPECTATIONS
The behaviour by the troll hounds is pathetic, but I am sorry… do not buy that “The Last Jedi” defense when criticised. If the dev team likes it great, it is their vision, but they do not have to share it and people do not have to like it. Also, I still do not get the feeling part of the style is needs not choice based: if he had 10-20x the funding would he have chosen this style (2D skeletal/spine based animation) or not?

I do not like it as an excuse in general: I am sure you are happy if you go to a restaurant and you order a beef steak and to subvert your expectation they give you salmon cooked only with leftover ingredients to subvert your expectations you would be pissed.
 

Majormaxxx

Member
The behaviour by the troll hounds is pathetic, but I am sorry… do not buy that “The Last Jedi” defense when criticised. If the dev team likes it great, it is their vision, but they do not have to share it and people do not have to like it. Also, I still do not get the feeling part of the style is needs not choice based: if he had 10-20x the funding would he have chosen this style (2D skeletal/spine based animation) or not?

I do not like it as an excuse in general: I am sure you are happy if you go to a restaurant and you order a beef steak and to subvert your expectation they give you salmon cooked only with leftover ingredients to subvert your expectations you would be pissed.
I am just tired of the subvert expectations typed. Why can't you create something people want for a change, creators?
 

ANDS

Thought gaf was racist. Now knows better, honorary gaffer 2022
I do not like it as an excuse in general: I am sure you are happy if you go to a restaurant and you order a beef steak and to subvert your expectation they give you salmon cooked only with leftover ingredients to subvert your expectations you would be pissed.

Bad analogy. You haven't ordered the steak yet in the case of Monkey Island, you've just been shown it on the menu.
 

Kazza

Member
And this is not as simple as, "don't like, don't buy" as some of you are reducing the issue. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity, something that fan dreamed for 30 years, completely squandered and thrown into the trash.





Ron Gilbert's Monkey Islands (the ONLY real Monkey Islands) always looked pseudo-realistic, accounting for technical limitations of that age. Those were the real Caribbeans. Those were real pirates. They were real pirate stories, albeit a bit wacky, not silly cartoons. The pseudo realism also affected the weight of the jokes. Monkey Island was as much a creature of Purcell as Gilbert's.
And now we went from an Errol Flynn movie to a nickelodeon cartoon.


I wonder what you people would think if God of War Ragnarok looked like Terrance and Phillip just because the dev found it fun.

This is why "muh, nostalgia" is such a lazy argument. How can anyone argue that a preference for this art-style is mere nostalgia, rather than just because it's really fucking good? Imagine if this game used modern technology (higher res, more colours, more memory etc) to create graphics similar to the above, but in normal gameplay! You can say it would be too expensive due to the artistic manhours it would take (don't know if that would be true), but you can't say that such a wish is just nostalgia speaking.
 
What's sad about all this is that first:

I'm pretty sure that the people complaining are the same dude-bros that also complained about Halo Infinite's first gameplay showing and they know nothing about the heritage and pedigree of Monkey Island.

Second: Unless you're also an art creator and/or make animations, your opinion has no value. In life it's not what you say that is important, it's who you are when you say it. Now saying "I don't like it" is a valid opinion but saying "This is crap, this is budget restraint" etc...those are statements and like I said, unless you know what you are talking about you should just keep your mouth shut. We are all guilty of doing this.

We can all grow from this.
 

Filben

Member
Like he was about to change it because of a bunch of fucking cunts. All they achieved is this, him not sharing anymore.

And I get it. It's not even being sulky, it's the only way because most of the time you have more to lose than to gain from that kind of communication. If I'd care about what you think while making a game I'd making an early access game.

Not everything must be shared and explained.
 

negator2vc

Neo Member
What's sad about all this is that first:

I'm pretty sure that the people complaining are the same dude-bros that also complained about Halo Infinite's first gameplay showing and they know nothing about the heritage and pedigree of Monkey Island.

Second: Unless you're also an art creator and/or make animations, your opinion has no value. In life it's not what you say that is important, it's who you are when you say it. Now saying "I don't like it" is a valid opinion but saying "This is crap, this is budget restraint" etc...those are statements and like I said, unless you know what you are talking about you should just keep your mouth shut. We are all guilty of doing this.

We can all grow from this.
So by following your reasoning
only programmers opinion matter when it come to applications (I am a programmer and also game developer).
Anyone else opinion (including users that use the application) has no value. right??????!!!
Everyone bow to the programmers-overlords, considering everything use code in some way ;-)
 
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SF Kosmo

...please disperse...
And this is not as simple as, "don't like, don't buy" as some of you are reducing the issue. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity, something that fan dreamed for 30 years, completely squandered and thrown into the trash.

Ron Gilbert's Monkey Islands (the ONLY real Monkey Islands) always looked pseudo-realistic, accounting for technical limitations of that age.
Selective memory/cherry picking. Outside of these infrequent close-ups, the art was very cartoony, especially the backgrounds, not because of the limitations of the tech but as a deliberate stylistic choice.

In fact the backgrounds style of the first game is not that far off from the new one.

But the characters are certainly very different, far more stylized than in the past, and I think it's fair to say that can impact the tone. Which was also the case in the last three MI games.

This is a series with a long history of changing art styles, so keep an open mind.
 
So by following your reasoning
only programmers opinion matter when it come to applications (I am a programmer).
Anyone else opinion (including users that use the application) has no value. right??????!!!
Everyone bow to the programmers-overlords, considering everything use code in some way ;-)
I'll give you an example.

If a young girl picks up Tennis and his grand mother tells her she's good and the Serena Williams tells her she's good. Which one's opinion will have more weight do you think? Which one of the 2 knows their shit more?

In your instance the user can definitely like or dislike the UI/UX but they can't say shit about your call stack.
 

Fuz

Member
Selective memory/cherry picking. Outside of these infrequent close-ups, the art was very cartoony, especially the backgrounds, not because of the limitations of the tech but as a deliberate stylistic choice.
Yeah, bullshit.
Selective memory my ass, I replay those two games once a year.
They strived for realism, with 2 giving some concession to a slightly more stylized enviroment than 1.
Which was also the case in the last three MI games.

This is a series with a long history of changing art styles, so keep an open mind.
Bullshit number 2. Completely invalid opinion.
We're talking Ron Gilbert's Monkey Island. Curse isn't. The tone in Curse was completey wrong. Let's not even talk about 4 and tales, widely considered trash regarding their art. 4 especially, was enormously despised at the time of its launch.
Yeah, they changed. 1. always for the worse 2. they're not Gilbert's/Purcell MI.
 
So convenient of Gilbert to obfuscate genuine criticism from a large majority of the fans with hate from a few fringe crazies.

He then shows his thin skin by locking himself away. If he was genuinely proud of the new art direction then he would be glad to engage the fans and belay their concerns.

It's sad to say but we really need another Sonic the Hedgehog (2020) redirect here. With the Sonic movie the fans spoke and ultimately we ended up with something much better than what was being presented. The new stylised look of Monkey Island seems a million miles away from the original. So much so that it barely even feels like it belongs to the same franchise. The new style is like a cross between Guacamelee! and Disneys Coco. It's such a departure and shift in cultural tone from the original he must have known how let down die hard fans would be with the new direction.

Something I never understood. Why people take something beloved and try to reinterpret it. When they twist it so far it isn't even recognisable any more. It's like they are just setting themselves up to fail. The only reason that beloved thing became so big and special in the first place is due to fans. It's the passion of the fans that keeps many of these franchises alive. That eventually creates the buzz that justifies investment in a sequel or reboot. When you betray the fans by bastardising what made that thing special there's no other way for some people to take that then as a betrayal. Ghostbusters (2016) and Wheel of Time (2021) are good examples of this.

Gilbert has a right to make the game he wants to make. Though that changes somewhat when looking to reboot or reimagine an existing beloved franchise. He may not have had the opportunity to remake his game if it wasn't for the fans and community keeping it alive. To some the new style is nothing short of disrespectful to the franchise. He perhaps should have trodden more carefully when screwing around with that thing everyone loved. The funny thing, people would have been far more forgiving if he made another game set in the same universe. With different characters. He could of then just did what he wanted and no-one other than the crazies would have really been all that fussed.
 

negator2vc

Neo Member
I'll give you an example.

If a young girl picks up Tennis and his grand mother tells her she's good and the Serena Williams tells her she's good. Which one's opinion will have more weight do you think? Which one of the 2 knows their shit more?

In your instance the user can definitely like or dislike the UI/UX but they can't say shit about your call stack.
that's completely different. we are talking about a product that will be judged by the people that will actually play it.
Gilbert don't make the game in a vacuum. he is making for other people.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Bad analogy. You haven't ordered the steak yet in the case of Monkey Island, you've just been shown it on the menu.
I am sure it will be the fault of the customers if they do not shop eh?

Nah, the analogy holds. The analogy was about the concept of “it is you who is wrong, I am subverting expectations, I planned it!”.

Surprise for surprise’s sake is not worth much unless you give something better than what people expected.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Something I never understood. Why people take something beloved and try to reinterpret it.
To be fair, when the original creative minds behind an IP do this, I think it's totally within their prerogative, they don't owe anyone anything, least of all entitled fanbase.
However - that 100% applies both ways, and noone owes the new installment in an IP any love either. Just because we happened to like something 20 years ago means absolutely nothing about whether we should still support, like or endorse their new product.

All that being said - consumer audiences have incredibly short memory retention on these. While internet rages on about 'modern trends' that ruin beloved IPs - 80ies, 90ies, 00ies were absolutely littered with horribly botched sequels and remakes, many of which noone(rightfully) remembers anymore. Ie. to your question - it's capitalism 101. Commercial entities(not so often the original creators) want to eat their cake and have it too (all the benefits of IP recognition without giving up any control to completely ignore what made the IP famous in the first place).
 
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I love that he says, "I don't care if this is the art style YOU wanted. It's what I wanted".

This is his/their creation. You can partake or not.
 

01011001

Member
I love that he says, "I don't care if this is the art style YOU wanted. It's what I wanted".

This is his/their creation. You can partake or not.

he has to say that, ultimately the art was done by someone on his team, not really by him. I wonder how much he actually likes it. He can't say "oh yeah, btw, I also don't really like how it looks"

also the style alone isn't the issue, the animation is objectively shit, there's no way around that. whoever animated the stuff we saw so far is either an absolute amateur or doesn't give a shit about the end product and simply does the least amount of work possible to make it work.
 
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BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
Fans didn't care for the original look of Bloodstained, so the creator improved it.

Fans balked at the original design of Sonic for the film, so they corrected it.

Just saying, you know. Some people are out to please their fans. Some are like "tHIs is MY VisIOn".

Personally I am undecided. I think overall it's (new art style) definitely worse than just taking almost any of the old styles and simply improving upon them given what modern hardware is capable of. I do think the new art is pretty rough and awkward, but not complete shit.
 
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Fredrik

Gold Member
I love that he says, "I don't care if this is the art style YOU wanted. It's what I wanted".

This is his/their creation. You can partake or not.
Well it is his game. And it’s foolish to think they’ll go back and remake the art at this point, would push it forward another year easily, the only thing the complaints are doing now is making the devs feel like shit after their first showcase.
 

Shifty

Gold Member
he has to say that, ultimately the art was done by someone on his team, not really by him. I wonder how much he actually likes it. He can't say "oh yeah, btw, I also don't really like how it looks"

also the style alone isn't the issue, the animation is objectively shit, there's no way around that. whoever animated the stuff we saw so far is either an absolute amateur or doesn't give a shit about the end product and simply does the least amount of work possible to make it work.
There are ways and means to address negative PR like this without throwing your team under the bus.

Though granted, the phrase 'we hear you' gets a little less effective each time a corporate twitter account farts out another unsearchable image post containing it.
 
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Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Devs have every right to make any type of art style they want and people have every right not to like it.

But there is no need for such childish insults. I personally hated the fact Kojima put celebrities faces in characters for Death Stranding but he has every fucking right to do it, that his game and I simply didn’t buy the game…..it’s that simple.

Why all this fucking drama!?
 
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SolarFry

Neo Member
Several indie companies manage to make beautiful adventure games with minimal budgets!!!!
So this is definitively not the issue here.
some recent high res (to avoid comments about pixelart) examples
even the new simon the sorcerer look great (and that's coming from someone who don't like origins stories of heroes)
I'm sorry but these examples, all three of them, look like ass.

Unless that was the point.
 

Rat Rage

Member
Gilbert has every right to design the game how he envisions it
...and everyone else on this planet has the right to voice their opinion about the art style as well - which I think fucking sucks. This is not how you bring back a legendary game title (which is also one of my opinions I have every right to voice). In fact, it looks so hideous, I won't ever buy it, nor would I accept it even if it was for free.
 
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rkofan87

Gold Member
...and everyone else on this planet has the right to voice their opinion about the artstyle as well - which I think fucking sucks. This is not how you bring back a legendary game title (which is also one of my opinions I have every right to voice). In fact, it looks so hideous, I won't ever buy it, nor would I accept it even if it was for free.
wow the art being shit does not make the game shit.
 

STARSBarry

Gold Member
Second: Unless you're also an art creator and/or make animations, your opinion has no value. In life it's not what you say that is important, it's who you are when you say it. Now saying "I don't like it" is a valid opinion but saying "This is crap, this is budget restraint" etc...those are statements and like I said, unless you know what you are talking about you should just keep your mouth shut. We are all guilty of doing this.

Look if you believe you know very little and therefore should STFU about it then thats great and all, but I'm going to just not do that thanks.

The thing about products is it's not just all about the creation, but also about the result and what that's like in the hands of the consumer, sometimes no matter how hard you work on something in an artform it's not going to click, and that's fine. The issue is when you expect the consumer base to act one way towards something and they don't, you can either take it in your stride, you made something for yourself and that's fine. However when you start criticising the consumer base for not liking the product you produced, big oof incoming.
 
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Alebrije

Member
He can do whatever he wabts with his game, i can do whatever i want to do with my money. I'm not spending a Cent on this ugly smartphone game although i'm a huge P&C Adventure fan.
Yep , the consumers will tell the developer if his approach was the right.
 

JusticeForAll

Gold Member
I hate the artstyle. It went from "pre-order to support a new Monkey Island" to "wait for reviews" for me because of it. I don't care about sending a message about it to Mr. Gilbert, but if I would, I wonder if he would be insulted. In the end it doesn't matter though, because I vote with my wallet. Would be a shame if this game would be the last one in the series and bea spectacular dud, though.
 
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Trunx81

Member
It’s Wind Waker all over again, isn’t it?
After seeing part 3, so people really care about the art style? I hope he’s making a good written story, helps to explain the ending of part 2, delivers on the puzzles and won’t end in a stupid cliffhanger. That’s all I care about.
 
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