Richard Leadbetter of Digital Foundry: Why the return of 30fps console games is inevitable

The true reason why is when Microsoft and Sony bring out the refresh PlayStation 5 and Xbox series X2 (or whatever it will be call) they have another way to sell it. I think that was 60 frames per second people for 2 years.
Not gonna happen, unless it has double the CPU power compared to PS5/XSX.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
@Thebonehead do they offer an option to kill the motion blur in the 30fps mode?

The way they've implemented that is just terrible, basically total mush at anything more than a slow walk.
 

Kataploom

Member
You didn't achieve anything other than overwaiting for your fav games for years to play them....
You could just play them again now but it's your choice to be stubborn
Dude give up, there are many of us that just don't feel good playing a game at low frame rate, some games are ok but most? No, in my case if I there's an option to play those games at 60 fps and I only have the option to play them at less than that, I'll rather wait while I play something else unless I definitely want to play them... In which case I'll just give it a chance and see how much it bothers me, it happened on Requiem that I'd rather wait for a better GPU or a console with 40fps mode on a proper TV because at 30 with dips is just a NO.

It's not a matter of "knowing if it's 60 fps or not to play it", it's a matter of LOOK and FEEL... 30 fps in many games feel so choppy, specially on PC... Not every game is Zelda looking good at 30 fps, actually almost none. I played Killer Is Dead on PC at 30 because it felt good anyway, was smooth, but Requiem? Fuck that game, looks completely unplayable to me even capping it using RivaTuner... But not only happens on PC, I can't play Super Mario Sunshine on my Switch because of that (specially after playing Odyssey and Galaxy on the same system), it's one of the worst 30 fps games I've tried to play, shoppy as fuck even tho the frame rate is very stable... Contrary to Spyro remaster that is smooth as butter at its 30 fps.

Thing is: 30 fps is very hit or miss... 60 and above? Just hits every single happy note... To play a game at 30 and risking of it not feeling good even if slow paced is a waste of time, money and energy not everyone is whiling to assume.
 

rofif

Member
Dude give up, there are many of us that just don't feel good playing a game at low frame rate, some games are ok but most? No, in my case if I there's an option to play those games at 60 fps and I only have the option to play them at less than that, I'll rather wait while I play something else unless I definitely want to play them... In which case I'll just give it a chance and see how much it bothers me, it happened on Requiem that I'd rather wait for a better GPU or a console with 40fps mode on a proper TV because at 30 with dips is just a NO.

It's not a matter of "knowing if it's 60 fps or not to play it", it's a matter of LOOK and FEEL... 30 fps in many games feel so choppy, specially on PC... Not every game is Zelda looking good at 30 fps, actually almost none. I played Killer Is Dead on PC at 30 because it felt good anyway, was smooth, but Requiem? Fuck that game, looks completely unplayable to me even capping it using RivaTuner... But not only happens on PC, I can't play Super Mario Sunshine on my Switch because of that (specially after playing Odyssey and Galaxy on the same system), it's one of the worst 30 fps games I've tried to play, shoppy as fuck even tho the frame rate is very stable... Contrary to Spyro remaster that is smooth as butter at its 30 fps.

Thing is: 30 fps is very hit or miss... 60 and above? Just hits every single happy note... To play a game at 30 and risking of it not feeling good even if slow paced is a waste of time, money and energy not everyone is whiling to assume.
matter of perspective and getting used to.
I am not asking you to play at low framerates. I am just trying to convince you that you are probably smarter than you think,
It depends on game per game basis of course. Some gems are good at 30 others are terrible because devs don't know what they are doing.
And I know how it looks and feels... Maybe I just couldn't care? Relax man
 

rofif

Member
I didn't realise that the PS5 outputted to youtube at 60, even on 30 fps.

I took a couple of videos last night and the 30fps thats encoded to 60 looks much better on youtube than it does in person.

I tried taking a video using my zv-1 camera which shows to a certain extent the horrid motion blur and it's definitely a different game to control in 30 - Feels syrupy.



Excuse the awful music - There was a conversation going on in the background. So this is obviosuly a nasty capture being off screen recorded at 30fps on my zv-1. But it's a close approximation of how nasty it looks in comparison to 60fps

This is weird.
30 or 60 is just a video container.
That first vid looks 60fps to me. I have a feeling you are pulling my leg.
And off-screen gameplay is useless. You would need to adjust shutter speed or just make it way brighter in your room
 
Well then they need to add performance modes that drop resolution or effects down enough until 60fps becomes possible. There’s really no excuse. Let gamers decide. Give us options.
 
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BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
This isn’t.


So damn choppy! Unplayable!

They said.

you’d be hard pressed to find a better looking game.

It looks pretty good, but the person playing is purposefully moving the camera around slowly, and mostly moving in straight lines. The actual gameplay of that game is much more frenetic, and the motion blur and choppy 30 fps is a lot more noticeable when actually playing it in regular traversal or battle situations. But still, looks pretty good.

The gold standard of games running 4K 30 fps but still looking smooth is, to me, the latest Ratchet and Clank. It's kind of hard to tell it's only 30 fps until you turn on performance mode to compare.
 

Represent.

Member
It looks pretty good, but the person playing is purposefully moving the camera around slowly, and mostly moving in straight lines. The actual gameplay of that game is much more frenetic, and the motion blur and choppy 30 fps is a lot more noticeable when actually playing it in regular traversal or battle situations. But still, looks pretty good.

The gold standard of games running 4K 30 fps but still looking smooth is, to me, the latest Ratchet and Clank. It's kind of hard to tell it's only 30 fps until you turn on performance mode to compare.
I have heard this many times before. And I just don’t see it. I recorded some of my own 30fps gameplay with the camera moving frantically and also during combat. Unfortunately it’s twitter compressed footage so it looks like shit. But I’m gonna try to get it uploaded in higher quality and see what people are talking about.

And for me the gold standard of 30fps games as of late are TLOUpart1, Ratchet, HFW and Miles Morales
 
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makaveli60

Member
R&C Rift Apart looks magnificient and runs at 60 fps.
True. Actually, that’s the only real nextgen game available right now. But if games will be designed around 30 fps by the best developers (Insomniac among them), even that game will look dated.
 

Shh

Member
If it's a locked in 30 fps and never drops below 30 then it's tolerable. It's when things drop below 30 fps that I want to throw the controller through the screen.
 

Zug

Member
Consoles now have standardized hardware and software, there's no "secret sauce" to be discovered anymore to optimize performance through their lifetime.
When crossgen games will start to fade away, 30fps AAA games will likely be the standard again. Graphics sells, and most people can't tell the difference, as they are playing on their cheap TV with motion interpolation on.
 

TheGecko

Banned
It's because of pixel counting wank stains like Leg end beater that devs want to push maximum resolution when there is no need.

1440p is plenty resolution for us to have 60fps as a minimum.

30fps was more tolerable on older screen technology but as we have advanced 30 does look very juddery on newer displays. Add to that the brain dead devs can't seem to remember how to do 30fps properly.
 
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MikeM

Member
Good thing graphics cards are so affordable now. If consoles go back to 30, I'm out.
I sold my Series X and built a PC two weeks ago. Its a good move.
As long as some good reconstruction is used? sure.
Raw 1440p looks like shite. but I will choose Quality DLSS over raw 4k any day
Raw 1440p looks like shite but 30fps movement is fine?

Cant See Cheech Marin GIF
 
And still looks better than 99% of anything this gen. You really believe 3rd party are going to push graphics to the next level? Look at Gotham Knights. The only gaming company that will push graphics is Playstation. Just look at history. Look at the PS4 gen. Whats better than the Last of us, Spiderman, and Gow? Playstation is the only company pushing the industry with their exclusives.

3rd party this gen will also be held back by the Series S (Mr. Potato). Its going to get worst.
This is what I’ve been saying…only PlayStation and select PC games actually push graphics forward and tech as a whole…
 
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Developers can't achieve balance? People saying needing pro consoles for 60fps, what was the PS4Pro and XboneX for? Cause PS5 and Series X should be doing 144fps by now

NVIDIA has thrown a wrench into graphic performance upgrades and that is by finally addressing Raytracing. The problem with that is it tanks performance, so hence DLSS to mitigate for that, along with their exclusive tensor cores to give themselves a competitive advantage as well as taking the lead in graphics. If it were not that and just using baked lightning, I honestly think we could easily be reaching 4k 60fps by now. AMD and Intel have had to play catch up, and they have not gotten it quite right yet, and they will always be behind in my opinion as soon as NVIDIA throws another wrench in some new 'revolutionary' graphics technology.

I have noticed with Western developers, is that they oversaturate the fuck out of textures and number of polygons while completely negating silky smooth cinematic motions (something that Japanese developers truly cherish)

Residents Evil 7, 8, 4 Remastered, 2 Remastered, 3 Remastered is a perfect example of how to balance things out with textures and 60fps cinematic motion.

You have 60fps games on Dreamcast, PS2, PS3, Xbox, Xbox360 for fucks sake. 60fps should be the target from the very beginning for developers, if it is not, you are doomed to 30fps.
 
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RoadHazard

Gold Member
It's because of pixel counting wank stains like Leg end beater that devs want to push maximum resolution when there is no need.

1440p is plenty resolution for us to have 60fps as a minimum.

30fps was more tolerable on older screen technology but as we have advanced 30 does look very juddery on newer displays. Add to that the brain dead devs can't seem to remember how to do 30fps properly.

In DF's defense, they have been regularly saying that native pixel counts don't really matter as much anymore, what matters is how it actually looks. But people want those numbers, so they keep giving them.
 

shiru

Member
In DF's defense, they have been regularly saying that native pixel counts don't really matter as much anymore, what matters is how it actually looks. But people want those numbers, so they keep giving them.
Yeah. Sub-native resolution is only an issue on fixed pixel displays such as lcds. On crt monitors it's not really a problem.
 
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TonyK

Member
I believe that giving time to get used to any framerate changes the perception. I stopped playing A Plague Tale Requiem in PS5 due to the choppy framerate. It's important to notice that I started Requiem just after finishing Innocence, that plays at 60fps in PS5, so by comparison, Requiem seemed almost unplayable. But some days ago I give it a second chance and now I'm almost finishing it, and do you know what? It feels smooth now. Not because it moves better, but because I'm not playing any 60fps game so my brain/eyes have get used to 30/40fps.
 

Mozza

Member
Of course 30 fps is going to become the norm for these current consoles and its the very reasons we need these pro consoles in our hands sooner rather than later
Not sure it will happen, last gen we got Pro consoles to take advantage of 4K T.V's, and even then their take up was not stellar compared to the regular versions.
 

HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
Not sure it will happen, last gen we got Pro consoles to take advantage of 4K T.V's, and even then their take up was not stellar compared to the regular versions.
Sony themselves stated the PS4 Pro was designed because they had internal data that showed about half way through the life of a console people started migrating to PCs because of new upgrades and the Pro was meant to try and stop that and keep them in the PS ecosystem
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
As long as there are optional 60 FPS performance modes, with the necessary cut-backs, I have no issue if they want to have high fidelity 30 FPS modes.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
30fps is never necessary as your only option. Personally I am perfectly fine with 1440p if that can bring the fps to 60. But I must say, I like 40fps a lot. It feels closer to 60 than to 30. I still prefer 60 but if you can keep all details in tact and its a game heavy on atmosphere then I pick 40. Horizon 2 was fine at 40fps, imo.
 
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Mozza

Member
Sony themselves stated the PS4 Pro was designed because they had internal data that showed about half way through the life of a console people started migrating to PCs because of new upgrades and the Pro was meant to try and stop that and keep them in the PS ecosystem
And the massive influx of affordable 4K televisions, don't totally disagree with you, but do not think it will happen this generation.
 
Sony themselves stated the PS4 Pro was designed because they had internal data that showed about half way through the life of a console people started migrating to PCs because of new upgrades and the Pro was meant to try and stop that and keep them in the PS ecosystem
I have to admit it worked, 360 and PS2 era I always upgraded my PC at some point even those years back. The PS4 Pro in 2016 not only stopped me from upgrading, but when I finally did it was in 2019 that I bought a used 1070 Razer gaming laptop just to play stuff like Civilization and Two Point Hospital off ebay. It was until 2022 I actually built a PC proper.
 
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Shut0wen

Member
Does it have to be like this? The answer is no but as ganes get more complex so does developers ability to do shit after a games launched it aill be funny when it transitions to 30fps cause there is already a huge popularity in 60fps, seen alot of people take there toys out of the pram when they say theres no 60fps mode in certain games, especially eith the new batman
 
As long as there are optional 60 FPS performance modes, with the necessary cut-backs, I have no issue if they want to have high fidelity 30 FPS modes.

Exactly. These consoles have enough wiggle room to offer options. In my opinion, they could easily do 3 settings; 4k30fps with raytracing, 1440p60fps, and 1080p120fps.
 
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