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Scalpers struggling to sell RTX 4080 cards, now ‘graciously’ offering them at MSRP | Retailers refuse to refund

brian0057

Banned
Then start thinking like an adult.
Your moronic arguments make you sound like a petulant child, trying to defend something that is ostensibly wrong.
Well, given that you and that other guy jumped straight to ad hominems, I wonder who the "petulant childs" are.
I gave you my reasons, you mocked (while also not making any arguments whatsoever).
I'm out.
 

ToTTenTranz

Banned
Never was a problem that needed government regulation in any case. I don't need "regulation" to know that I should avoid buying from scalpers.
At the very least you need regulation to ensure scalpers are paying income taxes. A store scalping their customers pays taxes and the government can't do anything about it.
A dude buying all of bestbuy's stock through bots and scripts just to sell it on ebay with an 80% profit doesn't pay any taxes and might even be applying for unemployment benefits. That shit's criminal.
 
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TLZ

Banned
Donald Glover Reaction GIF
 

winjer

Gold Member
Well, given that you and that other guy jumped straight to ad hominems, I wonder who the "petulant childs" are.
I gave you my reasons, you mocked (while also not making any arguments whatsoever).
I'm out.

You quoted me first, claiming I wasn't capable of an adult discussion, simply because I didn't agree with you.
And now you pretend that I'm the one who started with ad hominems attacks.
You really are a dishonest person. Not only with those moronic arguments, trying to defend scalping, but also by starting insulting others, then pretending you are the victim.
 

TLZ

Banned
You know what's worse than finding the product at twice the price? Not finding the product at all.
Now, imagine if instead of GPUs, it was food and medicine.
I don't have to imagine it.

Scallpers don't solve scarcity. They solve resource allocation.
Because only those who really need it will be willing to pay the high prices.
You people have no idea what you're talking about.
Happy Ice Hockey GIF by NHL
 

GreatnessRD

Member
While I am happy that the scalpers got owned here, I don't hate them for trying to get monies on non essential items. We should dislike the consumers who enable these scalpers by buying these products at stupid prices. They are the reasons scalpers exist because scalpers know some people in the world just can't help themselves. Some have the money who don't care. Some have that FOMO sickness and spend above their means, lol. Why do you think Nvidia and AMD are playing the stupid price game? They saw folks willing to spend stupid money recklessly. And it wasn't just the miners buying these products. Regular folks were out here spending $800-$1,000 on 3060s and 3060 Ti's respectively. Just hope that era is over with, but we'll see.
 

GymWolf

Member
I guess this is my fault for expecting an adult discussion on Neogaf.
Do you realize that people can't find the product because the scalpers buy it with bots instead of using normal methods...right?

There would be more product for everyone at mspr price if scalpers weren't a thing.

Scalpers don't create new gpus, they are just doubling the price of what it was already available to buy.

The number of gpu sold by nvidia is the exact same, scalpers or not, the exact same number of people are gonna be happy to get a gpu, scalpers or not.

Scalpers only make some people pay more, not sure what positives they bring to the table.
 
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brian0057

Banned
Do you realize that people can't find the product because the scalpers buy it with bots instead of using normal methods...right?
They can't find it... at MSRP.
They can find it... at scalper prices.
There would be more product for everyone at mspr price if scalpers weren't a thing.
No, there wouldn't be more product.
Scalpers don't create new gpus, they are just doubling the price of what it was already available to buy.
No, they don't increase supply. But some product at a higher price is better than no product at all.
The number of gpu sold by nvidia is the exact same, scalpers or not, the exact same number of people are gonna be happy to get a gpu, scalpers or not.
Of course. No one is disputing that.
Scalpers only make some people pay more, not sure what positives they bring to the table.
Having the product available in the first place.

And you wanna know what's ironic? Scalpers exist because retailers can't set their own prices, either by law or by the manufacturer.
 
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They can't find it... at MSRP.
They can find it... at scalper prices.

No, there wouldn't be more product.

No, they don't increase supply. But some product at a higher price is better than no product at all.

Of course. No one is disputing that.

Having the product available in the first place.

And you wanna know what's ironic? Scalpers exist because retailers can't set their own prices, either by law or by the manufacturer.
So much wrong in this that I fail to believe you could possibly be serious.
 
But even if it was food and medicine. A scalper would just make these essential products unavailable to poor people, adding to their woes.
So in that situation, scalpers would make a bad situation, much worse, by adding a lot of injustice to it.

Martin Shkreli likes this
 
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brian0057

Banned
Go on, explain the situation. I'm generally curious.
Government regulations made products like food and medicine scarce and hard to find.
But at least we had scalpers (we call them "bachaqueros") selling those at a much higher price. It was expensive, and we hated their guts, but at least you could find it.

Government then made scalping illegal because it was "unfair" and "parasitic", and the situation went from bad to worse. Instead of finding the product at a higher price, the product was gone altogether.
For 3 years, it was a constant struggle trying to find food or medicine. And when we managed to find some on the black market (which also arose thanks ot those same regulations) we traded it with others who could get it or gave to family and friends who couldn't.
I honestly wish no one on this site has to live through something like that.

It's also why every time people bitch about scalpers, I can't take them seriously. It all just boils down to "it's unfair".
Yeah, life's not fair. Welcome to the real world.
 
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dave_d

Member
If scallping becomes illegal, you won't find the product to begin with, regardless of the retail price.
How do I know this? I've lived it... and with far more important products than graphics cards.
I really wish people would just take a course in econ 101/102 instead of trying to invent a new form of economics. (Since they're basically arguing for price controls, IE price ceilings, which don't have a good track record to put it mildly) Then again I've seen people argue for a new form of physics instead of taking physics 101 and end up with energy not being conserved.
 
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kurisu_1974

is on perm warning for being a low level troll
I'm thinking if the scalpers didn't buy all the scarce products, they wouldn't be scarce to begin with, and the prices would have been lower.

Or they weren't scalpers but smugglers maybe?

Anyway the way you put it, it still makes zero sense. Products don't "disappear" when there's no scalpers to buy them.

Yeah, life's not fair. Welcome to the real world.

Also fuck your condescending tone, thanks.
 
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bitbydeath

Member
Government regulations made products like food and medicine scarce and hard to find.
But at least we had scalpers (we call them "bachaqueros") selling those at a much higher price. It was expensive, and we hated their guts, but at least you could find it.

Government then made scalping illegal because it was "unfair" and "parasitic", and the situation went from bad to worse. Instead of finding the product at a higher price, the product was gone altogether.
For 3 years, it was a constant struggle trying to find food or medicine. And when we managed to find some on the black market (which also arose thanks ot those same regulations) we traded it with others who could get it or gave to family and friends who couldn't.
I honestly wish no one on this site has to live through something like that.

It's also why every time people bitch about scalpers, I can't take them seriously. It all just boils down to "it's unfair".
Yeah, life's not fair. Welcome to the real world.
You probably couldn’t find it because the scalpers who bought it all also moved to the black market.

Scalpers are still the issue.
 
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chixdiggit

Member
Government regulations made products like food and medicine scarce and hard to find.
But at least we had scalpers (we call them "bachaqueros") selling those at a much higher price. It was expensive, and we hated their guts, but at least you could find it.

Government then made scalping illegal because it was "unfair" and "parasitic", and the situation went from bad to worse. Instead of finding the product at a higher price, the product was gone altogether.
For 3 years, it was a constant struggle trying to find food or medicine. And when we managed to find some on the black market (which also arose thanks ot those same regulations) we traded it with others who could get it or gave to family and friends who couldn't.
I honestly wish no one on this site has to live through something like that.

It's also why every time people bitch about scalpers, I can't take them seriously. It all just boils down to "it's unfair".
Yeah, life's not fair. Welcome to the real world.
Sorry you had to go through that.
The issue is you are comparing two very different things. People buying up graphics cards in mass numbers from retail chains to create shortages and drive up prices is not the same as knowing some guy that has a hook up on food and medicine.
How were the "bachaqueros" obtaining the food and medicine? If it was from buying up everything that would normally be available to everyone else, then yeah they are part of the problem. If it was them getting it through other means to supply essential products to people then they are providing a service.
 

Lunarorbit

Member
Slightly off topic but was there ever any follow-up on how rettbone did back in the day trying to see all those wii-u she scooped up?
 

brian0057

Banned
How were the "bachaqueros" obtaining the food and medicine?
Now you're asking the real questions.
Either through the black market or smuggling.
You also had armed forces personnel stationed on every store to prevent riots (which were common) and they would make deals with scalpers to get a bulk of the product.
We even had entire shipping containers filled with imported goods go bad because it was illegal to sell them above "fair prices".
 
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Hot5pur

Member
Scalpers add nothing to human society and are just leeches who lack any sort of skills hoping to make a quick buck.
It's not entrepreneurship, it's not being clever, it's not anything worth commending. It's reprehensible in every way imaginable.
Scalpers create artificial demand by buying up stock and then screw up the supply because scalpers channels (ebay, whatever else) are not as mainstream as retailers.
Understandably it's human greed, and some people are flawed by biological design, just some had the opportunity to get better over the course of their lives while others can't shed their rudimentary ancestral brains.
 

GHG

Gold Member
I'm thinking if the scalpers didn't buy all the scarce products, they wouldn't be scarce to begin with, and the prices would have been lower.

Or they weren't scalpers but smugglers maybe?

Anyway the way you put it, it still makes zero sense. Products don't "disappear" when there's no scalpers to buy them.

What? No, that's not how it works.

Scalpers only go after items they believe to be in high enough demand for them to be able to increase the price beyond what they originally paid in order to make a profit. The key words being high demand. Their whole "business model" hinges on it.

If the item is in high demand then the product would sell out regardless of whether scalpers exist or not, the supply fails to meet demand and you end up with a bunch of customers waiting for the product they need/want. On the flip side, if the demand isn't high enough (and or/supply being too high) then you end up with the exact scenario depicted in the subject of this thread.

Removing a single factor from economies or sub-economies rarely solves any problems. Issues when they exist tend to be multifaceted.
 
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brian0057

Banned
Scalpers are still the issue.
Scalpers are not "the issue", they're a symptom.
In this case, the real issue is retailers being unable to set their own prices, either by law or by the manufacturer.
Let retailers compete with scalpers on the same level and you'll see prices drop real quick.
 

GHG

Gold Member
You probably couldn’t find it because the scalpers who bought it all also moved to the black market.

Scalpers are still the issue.

Scalpers are far from being the issue in the scenario he described. He even told you in the very same post you quoted where the source of the issue is.

People need to understand one thing - scalpers are a symptom of economic imbalance (where supply fails to meet demand). Thats not to say they don't end up causing other problems, and more often than not end up exasperating the original problem, but they are never the source of the issue.
 

kurisu_1974

is on perm warning for being a low level troll
What? No, that's not how it works.

Scalpers only go after items they believe to be in high enough demand for them to be able to increase the price beyond what they originally paid in order to make a profit. The key words being high demand. Their whole "business model" hinges on it.

If the item is in high demand then the product would sell out regardless of whether scalpers exist or not, the supply fails to meet demand and you end up with a bunch of customers waiting for the product they need/want. On the flip side, if the demand isn't high enough (and or/supply being too high) then you end up with the exact scenario depicted in the subject of this thread.

Removing a single factor from economies or sub-economies rarely solves any problems. Issues when they exist tend to be multifaceted.

There would still be the same amount of product but for normal prices, unless the scalpers are actually black market smugglers that have other means of obtaining the product, but then it's a whole different discussion and the comparison with GPU scalpers is not valid.
 
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bitbydeath

Member
Scalpers are not "the issue", they're a symptom.
In this case, the real issue is retailers being unable to set their own prices, either by law or by the manufacturer.
Let retailers compete with scalpers on the same level and you'll see prices drop real quick.
If the ‘scalpers’ aren’t buying the products from your local retail stores then they aren’t scalpers, they’re smugglers.

I think you’re using the wrong term here, if I’m understanding you correctly.
 
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Topher

Gold Member
At the very least you need regulation to ensure scalpers are paying income taxes. A store scalping their customers pays taxes and the government can't do anything about it.
A dude buying all of bestbuy's stock through bots and scripts just to sell it on ebay with an 80% profit doesn't pay any taxes and might even be applying for unemployment benefits. That shit's criminal.

Tax law regulation for buying and selling goods have existed long before ebay was ever a thing.

Scalpers are far from being the issue in the scenario he described. He even told you in the very same post you quoted where the source of the issue is.

People need to understand one thing - scalpers are a symptom of economic imbalance (where supply fails to meet demand). Thats not to say they don't end up causing other problems, and more often than not end up exasperating the original problem, but they are never the source of the issue.

Which is why GPU MSRP is higher now than it ever has been.
 
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Orta

Banned
Scalpers are far from being the issue in the scenario he described. He even told you in the very same post you quoted where the source of the issue is.

People need to understand one thing - scalpers are a symptom of economic imbalance (where supply fails to meet demand). Thats not to say they don't end up causing other problems, and more often than not end up exasperating the original problem, but they are never the source of the issue.

Still parasitic bastards though.
 

bitbydeath

Member
Scalpers are far from being the issue in the scenario he described. He even told you in the very same post you quoted where the source of the issue is.

People need to understand one thing - scalpers are a symptom of economic imbalance (where supply fails to meet demand). Thats not to say they don't end up causing other problems, and more often than not end up exasperating the original problem, but they are never the source of the issue.
As per my previous post, I think he’s talking about products that aren’t available at retail at all, that’s nothing to do with scalping.
 

winjer

Gold Member
The thing with Venezuela was that when Maduro gained power, inflation started to rise. Right in his first year.
So as a brilliant dictator that he is, he decided to implement price regulations, to force prices down. (Ley Orgánica de Precios Justos)
The thing is that the value of the coin was still dropping. So companies that bought foreign products had to sell them at a lower cost than what they paid for. For a while it was great for Venezuelans, as they could get things much cheaper.
But companies stopped buying foreign goods, because if they did, they would lose a lot of money. So the stock of products available in the country dropped hard.
Enters the black market and scalpers, making a lot of money by selling the last remaining stock.
But they didn't solve anything. They just out priced millions of people from being able to buy the things they needed.
Brian0057's family was lucky to be wealthier than most Venezuelans. But for every rich person that could buy these products at scalper prices, there were millions that could not.
And this was a great injustice for millions of Venezuelans, so we can thank scalpers for making a terrible situation even worse. Just not for rich people.
 

brian0057

Banned
The thing with Venezuela was that when Maduro gained power, inflation started to rise. Right in his first year.
So as a brilliant dictator that he is, he decided to implement price regulations, to force prices down. (Ley Orgánica de Precios Justos)
The thing is that the value of the coin was still dropping. So companies that bought foreign products had to sell them at a lower cost than what they paid for. For a while it was great for Venezuelans, as they could get things much cheaper.
But companies stopped buying foreign goods, because if they did, they would lose a lot of money. So the stock of products available in the country dropped hard.
Enters the black market and scalpers, making a lot of money by selling the last remaining stock.
But they didn't solve anything. They just out priced millions of people from being able to buy the things they needed.
Brian0057's family was lucky to be wealthier than most Venezuelans. But for every rich person that could buy these products at scalper prices, there were millions that could not.
And this was a great injustice for millions of Venezuelans, so we can thank scalpers for making a terrible situation even worse. Just not for rich people.
All true except for one thing.
My family and I are not rich. We're not even middle class.
And even then, we saved everything we could in foreign currency in order to buy those products.

And one thing I've seen is some of those with enough money to buy at scalper prices would often sell cheaper (or even gift) to those that couldn't do it.
Remove scalpers and even that option is gone. Which is exactly what happened.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
I can't believe some of the posts here.

Who would have thought that scalpers were doing the world a service by doubling the price of goods. Even the economic darwinism scalpers practice should be cheered, because they allow the wealthy to have better access at the expense of the poor? The more you know.

Here I was thinking that the best option would be for the end-users to buy the products directly at MSRP.
 
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winjer

Gold Member
All true except for one thing.
My family and I are not rich. We're not even middle class.
And even then, we saved everything we could in foreign currency in order to buy those products.

And one thing I've seen is some of those with enough money to buy at scalper prices would often sell cheaper (or even gift) to those that couldn't do it.
Remove scalpers and even that option is gone. Which is exactly what happened.

Without scalpers, the situation would be the same, as the same amount of product would be available.
The distribution would be different, being based more on luck and less on wealth.
 

Bragr

Banned
People need to understand one thing - scalpers are a symptom of economic imbalance (where supply fails to meet demand). Thats not to say they don't end up causing other problems, and more often than not end up exasperating the original problem, but they are never the source of the issue.
No no no, scalpers have evolved way past that, in the current market scalpers create the very demand themselves and exploit people for it. And we have to take the bill.

Scalpers are not creating GPUs, there are just as many people getting GPUs if scalpers are around or not. They just make sure normal people can't afford it and exploit the ones who can.
 

Topher

Gold Member
I can't believe some of the posts here.

Who would have thought that scalpers were doing the world a service by doubling the price of goods. Even the economic darwinism scalpers practice should be cheered, because they allow the wealthy to have better access at the expense of the poor? The more you know.

Here I was thinking that the best option would be for the end-users to buy the products directly at MSRP.

I'm not seeing the posts saying scalpers are necessarily a good thing. There are those who are looking at the situation from an econ 101 point of view, however. That's a sober, impassionate view of the economic situation. But then there is the scummy tactics scalpers use to gobble up stock. I certainly don't see anyone defending that shit. Or if they are, I missed it.
 

ANDS

King of Gaslighting
Then start thinking like an adult.
Your moronic arguments make you sound like a petulant child, trying to defend something that is ostensibly wrong.

Yeah. . .you aren't being the "adult" here. Person you are responding gave an arguable reason why "scalping" might exist in other contexts. This is in response to someone else saying that scalping as a matter of course should be "illegal" - which is of course a ridiculous statement as for all emergency or "needed" goods price gouging is ALREADY illegal.

. . .you weren't engaging with their full argument, and instead focused on the argument you are perceiving they are making.

I'm not seeing the posts saying scalpers are necessarily a good thing.

Because literally no one was.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Because literally no one was.

Literally there are posts saying that "They [scalpers] solve resource allocation"

Which creates the scenario where what is being cheered there is that buyers with more money are being prioritized over those with less. We aren't talking about necessities here but a frivolous entertainment buy. The same number of people are getting the product regardless, only without scalpers everyone pays retail or with them a certain percentage grossly overpays. Is there a market for grossly overpriced products? Obviously yes, or the scalpers wouldn't exist, but that does not equate to them solving any market problem or being beneficial in any way.
 

brian0057

Banned
Retailers would have sold out ps5 and xsex without scalpers.
Yes, of course. At MSRP, they would've flown out the window.
But let them compete with scalpers on pricing and now people with high end cards already on their rigs will think "maybe I don't need to upgrade right now" and leave those cards to those willing and able to buy them.

Now scalpers will have to lower their prices if they don't wanna lose money.
Then retailers will have to lower their prices in turn to not lose customers to scalpers.
And the cycle repeats until the price goes down to MSRP or close enough.
At that point, the scalpers are losing money because, unlike retailers, can't offer warranties, refunds, RMAs, etc.

At the end of the day, it's simple supply and demand.
 
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dave_d

Member
Yes, of course. At MSRP, they would've flown out the window.
But let them compete with scalpers on pricing and now people with high end cards already on their rigs will think "maybe I don't need to upgrade right now" and leave those cards to those willing and able to buy them.

Now scalpers will have to lower their prices if they don't wanna lose money.
Then retailers will have to lower their prices in turn to not lose customers to scalpers.
And the cycle repeats until the price goes down to MSRP or close enough.
Pretty much Econ 101. Then again they appear to think the scalpers function as a monopoly or a cartel. (With no evidence btw)
 
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