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Sega Saturn on MiSTer FPGA; the early days of something amazing

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Both Jaguar and 3DO have good software emulators. Phoenix is good for both and Opera/4DO seem good enough for the 3DO.
Not really, though. Jaguar still has a ton of not working games or stuff with weird glitches. 3DO is better but I have still run into a lot of games that don't work. Compared to almost every other system supported by MiSTer there are major gains to be had over traditional emulators.
 
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PhaseJump

Banned
Well... you are wrong. Both software emulation and FPGAs depend on the knowledge and skills of the developet making them. They can be as good and as bad as they can make them. There is nothing inherently better for either, especially when it comes to accuracy and compatibility.

srg320's making the Saturn core. His knowledge and skill are unquestionable at this point. If game developers and FPGA core developers were comparable, that guy would be peak Miyamoto tier.

FPGAs inherently run closer to the metal and have less latency as a result, therefore they are typically much more accurate to offering the original hardware environment to the game code, no matter how much wish fulfillment is put into leveling the playing field in an emulation comparison. They're superior, but expensive and not as practical for most people. Emulators are cheaper, and less accuracy is acceptable to 99% of people who decide to pick up retro games.

For preservation purposes, FPGA provides a better environment too. Bugs in OG hardware revisions, etc.
 
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Ladioss

Member
They're superior, but expensive and not as practical for most people. Emulators are cheaper, and less accuracy is acceptable to 99% of people who decide to pick up retro games.
As it is often the case with technology, it comes down to a choice between trade-offs.
 

German Hops

GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief
It looks like we are on the cusp of something historic.




iKHjy2h.gif
 
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nkarafo

Member
Not really, though. Jaguar still has a ton of not working games or stuff with weird glitches. 3DO is better but I have still run into a lot of games that don't work. Compared to almost every other system supported by MiSTer there are major gains to be had over traditional emulators.
Could you provide some examples of 3DO games not working with phoenix or 4DO/opera? You say a lot of games don't work so could you name 10?

Same with Jaguar games on Phoenix. Jaguar has like 50 games so when you say a "ton of not working games" makes it sound like at least half of the library isn't working. Which is true for virtual jaguar emulator but not for Phoenix.
 
Curious who on Gaf owns a MiSTer though?

I've owned a MiSTer since slighter before the GBA/Sega CD cores were released. It was great back then and it's incredible now. Easily the best deal in all of gaming. The only things I still need are a good arcade stick and a nice controller for the PS1 core that supports rumble if anyone has recommendations.

Prior to MiSTer I had messed around with RetroPie, modded mini consoles, and RetroArch and always came away disappointed.
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Well... you are wrong. Both software emulation and FPGAs depend on the knowledge and skills of the developet making them. They can be as good and as bad as they can make them. There is nothing inherently better for either, especially when it comes to accuracy and compatibility.
Yes and no. In emulation, a lot of problems come not from incorrectly emulating behaviors and functions, but difficulties with the timings and making it all work together. This is especially true for the Saturn, which uses dual CPUs and dual graphics chips that overlay on each other. FPGA has some big advantages in this regard.

Cycle-accurate emulators with 100% compatibility do exist for many systems, like SNES, GBA, NES, and Genesis. But most emulators don't work this way because it's simply too demanding to do with more complicated systems. It doesn't really exist past the 16-bit gen. Duckstation is pretty close, like 90% there. Definitely "good enough" that most would never spot a difference.

Now, that said, there are limits to what MiSTer can handle as well and PSX and Saturn are scraping the upper boundary of those limits. So Saturn is a real battleground where MisTer could prove itself superior in a concrete way.

FPGA isn't necessarily 100% accurate in the absolute sense either, like you pointed out. But certain things are a lot easier with FPGA.

Personally I do like the ease of use of emulation, and the broader system support. I have a handheld/console set up with a Pi and then dedicated emulation drive in my PC focused on accuracy and including newer systems. But MiSTer is closer to real hardware in some ways and I get the appeal, it just needs to mature a bit and get a better front end.
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Could you provide some examples of 3DO games not working with phoenix or 4DO/opera? You say a lot of games don't work so could you name 10?

Same with Jaguar games on Phoenix. Jaguar has like 50 games so when you say a "ton of not working games" makes it sound like at least half of the library isn't working. Which is true for virtual jaguar emulator but not for Phoenix.
I don't use Phoenix but I do use Opera and I have had issues with plenty of games. Not always to where they won't boot, but PaTaank is unplayable, Super Wing Commander has a bunch of fucked up audio, like it's not really a substitute for real hardware yet.

I will have to try Phoenix again but I remember the Iron Soldier games and some others not working.
 

nkarafo

Member
I don't use Phoenix but I do use Opera and I have had issues with plenty of games. Not always to where they won't boot, but PaTaank is unplayable, Super Wing Commander has a bunch of fucked up audio, like it's not really a substitute for real hardware yet.

I will have to try Phoenix again but I remember the Iron Soldier games and some others not working.
Phoenix is the better emulator AFAIK for 3DO.

Its also pretty good for Jaguar but i don't think it supports Jaguar CD games.
 

Miyazaki’s Slave

Gold Member
Considering the Saturn is a mess of silicon that devs struggled with when it was on the market AND emulation of Saturn is still iffy at best...the fact that a core developer currently in Ukraine dropped an alpha core for Saturn in FPGA is just amazing. Especially considering compared to the recent PS1 core this should hopefully get more people into playing Saturn (not sure how many Saturn fans are on Gaf??)

It's still V preliminary and most things either function "ok" or not at all, but from a technical achievement and a "damn thats cool let me help test games" standpoint...feels like magic.

Curious who on Gaf owns a MiSTer though?


Thanks for the setup video this AM! Going to set it up over the weekend, thanks for the work!!
 
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