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Should every game have an easy mode?

ungalo

Member
When you talk about difficulty, what you're actually talking about is the lack of an optional "easy mode". The regular difficulty itself remains unchanged. FromSoft games not having easier difficulty isn't because of the director intent, it's because the games are marketed to go viral as "Difficult games". A marketing tactic that worked brilliantly.
Why are you saying it's unchanged when it's obviously changed ? I get the choices part but not the dichotomy between the game and the marketing. If you add an option you change the nature of the game, whether or not the normal mode remains the same, nothing to do with marketing that's a fact.

It's simplistic to think that From Software just want to have their games labeled as difficult or elitist. The truth is it changes how the game is approachable, how people are going to play it and talk about it. Those games go viral not because they are labeled difficult but because being difficult has consequences. Players share their hardships, their tips, they help each other, the coop is even made for that and the community was born from that. The fact that everyone is going down the same path but with a set of tools of their own is really a huge part in the success of those games, it's so obvious to me. They have to unify the experience while giving a lot of freedom at the same time to overcome it.

How many players were truly prevented from enjoying those games because of the difficulty versus How many players fell into that collective experience that they would probably have missed completely otherwise ? So yeah i think it's a DESIGN choice that's very thoughtful.
 
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ironmang

Member
With all due respect my argument has 0 to do with devs being pressured into anything. My statement is "there is 0 downside to giving a player full customisation options for the game they're playing and i wouldnt mind seeing it in every game". I also said "the end result is the same" if a modder decided to add a feature like Infinite HP or if the Developer added it.

Now you can either tell me which parts of my premise you disagree or agree with or you can continuing bolding a sentence from my paragraph and responding with something that doesn't even counter the point you bolded.

To make it easier I should probably just ask you the questions.

1. Do you think there is a downside to the end user having more options in their games such as cheats that include invincibility?

2. If a modder adds Infinite hp to a game is the end result any different to if a developer included it in the first place?
There isn't 0 downside. There's time required to implement these features and compromising their vision of how the game should be played. Also, again, much of the success of difficult games is the fact that they're brutal (by modern standards at least) and you have to make an effort to learn about the mechanics instead of just lowering the difficulty and steamrolling everything.

I never said you specifically were trying to pressure them but that's the point of all of these articles and tweets and threads that try and guilt them into adding options that they don't want to add.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
That takes away from the value of the achievement. Think about have another Nobel prize with lower standards, a simpler Ninja Warrior or whatever. :)

Also, if you do not perceive that, you may just be less ambitious or competetive, but please respect others that are.

The popularity of unforgiving / hard games or sports should make it clear there is a large market for having activities where you 'git gut' or get out (if you can't stand the heat......)
But with a game having multiple difficulty levels, the hard/expert modes are still there for people wanting a challenge. Just pick those modes.

Just because easy/normal modes are there doesn't mean a gamer has to pick them. Just go to options and pick the higher skill levels and enjoy.

Why is that so hard to do?

Just like sports games. Name one person who has ever played sports, racing and fighting games to want only one AI difficulty level? The answer is zero people. People like to adjust the sliders to fit their game style and skills so people can enjoy playing against the computer. It would be stupid for EA or 2K to make their games with one canned difficulty level hoping it fits. But you got ranges from Novice, Normal, Pro, All-Star kinds of settings. It would be pretty dumb for them to lock the AI to All Star or Superstar only.

So it can also apply to action games. Let gamers adjust it to what they want.
 
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Boneless

Member
When you talk about difficulty, what you're actually talking about is the lack of an optional "easy mode". The regular difficulty itself remains unchanged. FromSoft games not having easier difficulty isn't because of the director intent, it's because the games are marketed to go viral as "Difficult games". A marketing tactic that worked brilliantly.


It's easy to market a good product as it almost sells itself. To call the difficulty a marketing tactic is a bit silly, as the unforgiving nature is what the game is praised for, and is what makes people come back for more. The director's intent is to build a good product and one then markets this. Did he foresee he could use difficulty as way create viral marketing? Unlikely, but also irrelevant.
 

Boneless

Member
So it can also apply to action games. Let gamers adjust it to what they want.

Nobody is saying it cannot apply, it just doesn't have to. A chef that is renowned for his spicy meal is entitled to say no if you want it without spice, the spice may be core to the meal and flavour experience in his opinion. The fact that you would still want to try it without spice is irrelevant, you can request it, and the creator can say "no, learn to eat spicy food".
 

GametimeUK

Member
There isn't 0 downside. There's time required to implement these features and compromising their vision of how the game should be played. Also, again, much of the success of difficult games is the fact that they're brutal (by modern standards at least) and you have to make an effort to learn about the mechanics instead of just lowering the difficulty and steamrolling everything.

By 0 downside I was speaking about the final product of the game. I meant it only makes the game better and takes nothing away from the experience. I wasn't talking about a developers perspective and the time it takes to implement such features.

Yes I agree with the appeal of these difficult games and overcoming the challenge, but with easy modes and cheats you still have the option to play that way. It also opens up new ways for others to enjoy the game. Options and flexibility = good.

(Edit)

And I don't believe it only has to be exclusively about making games easier. Add sliders and modifiers to make every enemy in the game kill you in 1 hit etc.
 
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Rykan

Member
That takes away from the value of the achievement. Think about have another Nobel prize with lower standards, a simpler Ninja Warrior or whatever. :)

Also, if you do not perceive that, you may just be less ambitious or competetive, but please respect others that are.

The popularity of unforgiving / hard games or sports should make it clear there is a large market for having activities where you 'git gut' or get out (if you can't stand the heat......)
Why? You're the one that's being disrespectful by suggesting that your sense of achievement is lessened if players enjoy the game in an optional easier mode which in turn also means that you're claiming that people who finish games that have difficulty modes, including ones much, much more difficult than DS, have achieved less than you. It's a bit puzzling that you now demand for respect for that.

That said, I'm glad we're back to the absurd analogies. Completing Dark Souls is now comparable to winning a nobel prize, apparently,
Why are you saying it's unchanged when it's obviously changed ? I get the choices part but not the dichotomy between the game and the marketing. If you add an option you change the nature of the game, whether or not the normal mode remains the same, nothing to do with marketing that's a fact.

It's simplistic to think that From Software just want to have their games labeled as difficult or elitist. The truth is it changes how the game is approachable, how people are going to play it and talk about it. Those games go viral not because they are labeled difficult but because being difficult has consequences. Players share their hardships, their tips, they help each other, the coop is even made for that and the community was born from that. The fact that everyone is going down the same path but with a set of tools of their own is really a huge part in the success of those games, it's so obvious to me. They have to unify the experience while giving a lot of freedom at the same time to overcome it.

How many players were truly prevented from enjoying those games because of the difficulty versus How many players fell into that collective experience that they would probably have missed completely otherwise ? So yeah i think it's a DESIGN choice that's very thoughtful.
It's not simplistic, it's blatantly obvious. Just take a look at the Tagline that they used for the original PC port for Dark Souls. I do agree to some extend that the difficulty does form a community in a way, but there's nothing suggesting that wouldn't have happened if an optional easy mode was there. The vast majority of players will, by default, play on the normal or standard difficulty level. We see a similar type of community bonding over Elder Scrolls games, and those games are far from difficult.

The people taking part in said community is also rather small considering how big these games are now. The vast majority of players don't participate in things like message boards or any of the sorts.
 
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Knightime_X

Member
If you have PC mod you can do however you want but you cant just force devs try to appeal to everyone because most of the time the game suffers as result.

There are games I just cant play because I dont like online gaming and I dont want to pay for subscriptions, so MMOs just not for someone like me and thats just life.

Not everything appeals to everybody.
Mmo type games are entirely different.

No need for force a dev to retrofit difficulty settings, most competent games have difficulty settings anyway because they're made proper.

Many rpg style games typically don't need settings because it's built right in via gaining xp with no soft caps.

Make it as easy or difficult as you please.

Some games like mario consider the difficulty for the average player, not a diehard gamer who games more than they work.
 
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Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Mmo type games are entirely different.

No need for force a dev to retrofit difficulty settings, most competent games have difficulty settings anyway because they're made proper.

Many rpg style games typically don't need settings because it's built right in via gaining xp with no soft caps.

Make it as easy or difficult as you please.

Some games like mario consider the difficulty for the average not a diehard who games more than they work.
Again they are 1000 games out there for people who only play casually.

FROM games became well known exactly because they don’t follow “industry standards” and that fantadtic! we get unique and amazing because there are devs who are willing take risk make a unique games even tho might not everyone’s cup of tea.
 

Paasei

Member
I think adding/having different types of difficulties isn't a good thing. I don't think many games do it right when it comes to presenting a proper challenge. 9/10 times it's a cheap more damage/less hp issue, or simply making the NPC's "cheat" slightly.
A nice thing to have would be if there's just a basic difficulty and you, the player, can tweak it to their hearts desire.

I don't think games need an easy mode per se. I think games and the developers of said games, need to be more innovative in how to properly challenge a player.
 

Knightime_X

Member
Again they are 1000 games out there for people who only play casually.

FROM games became well known exactly because they don’t follow “industry standards” and that fantadtic! we get unique and amazing because there are devs who are willing take risk make a unique games even tho might not everyone’s cup of tea.
So you believe hard mode should also not be an option either.

Souls games could have easily done easy mode the exact same way ng+ has increased difficulty.

It's all about scaling.
 
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ironmang

Member
By 0 downside I was speaking about the final product of the game. I meant it only makes the game better and takes nothing away from the experience. I wasn't talking about a developers perspective and the time it takes to implement such features.

Yes I agree with the appeal of these difficult games and overcoming the challenge, but with easy modes and cheats you still have the option to play that way. It also opens up new ways for others to enjoy the game. Options and flexibility = good.

(Edit)

And I don't believe it only has to be exclusively about making games easier. Add sliders and modifiers to make every enemy in the game kill you in 1 hit etc.
You can't ignore the development process lol. Otherwise I could say there's literally 0 downside to making every DLC free since it makes the game better.

Why do games need to be flexible but gamers don't?
 
It’s like fucking clock work, every fucking time a new FROM game gets announced we get exact same tired arguments.

in the end it up devs if they want include difficulty option or not and you are free not to like it and not buy it, you have that option.

Yep. Just a bunch of entitled folks who refuse to learn how to do better. When children and folks with severe physical disabilities can do it, so can they. There is zero excuse.
 

Knightime_X

Member
You are absolutely correct in that they can scale things down to be easier - but again that takes development time and balancing. It isn't as easy as "flipping a switch" as some in this thread think. Couple the fact that there is simply no need for it as the games are more than playable that even physically disabled people can beat wholeheartedly possibly- you just have to (and say it with me now) GET GOOD.
Many can't possibly care any less if easy is unbalanced and "breaks" the game.

Flipping the switch is wholeheartedly possible.
Sometimes as easy as making an adjustment in an .ini file or similar.

Imagine making a fighting game with your logic. No difficulty settings.
Let me know how that turns out.
 

Saber

Gold Member
It’s like fucking clock work, every fucking time a new FROM game gets announced we get exact same tired arguments.

Yeah, same shit different day. Still remember us trying to explain this when later Fromsoftware games were launched, and people saying souls fans are toxic.
It will happen again when Armored Core launches. Even though its not even a souls game we both know threads like this will pop up again and again.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Yeah, same shit different day. Still remember us trying to explain this when later Fromsoftware games were launched, and people saying souls fans are toxic.
It will happen again when Armored Core launches. Even though its not even a souls game we both know threads like this will pop up again and again.
may-god-have-mercy-on-us-all-michael-bryce.gif
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
It’s like fucking clock work, every fucking time a new FROM game gets announced we get exact same tired arguments.

in the end it up devs if they want include difficulty option or not and you are free not to like it and not buy it, you have that option.
There two key points to this topic:

1. Should a dev make one difficulty or many?

2. Regardless of what they do, how much do gamers care if a game has one or many difficulty levels?

A dev can make what ever they want. If they want to funnel to one difficulty level all game they can. If they want to make Elden Ring 2 they can. If they want to make Tic Tac Toe they can.

However, another point to these discussions is gamer attitude. If FROM decides to make future games have many difficulty levels then what? While some gamers welcome that, what happens to the hardcore gamer wanting only one difficulty knowing lots of people are now playing the same game at different skill levels? Are they going to accept that? Or will they get into hissyfits because a guy 5000 miles away is playing the same game at a lower difficulty level than them?

Why do some gamers care so much about DS difficulty, when every other game out there from sports to fighting games have multiple levels from Novice to Superstar mode with tons of slider tweaks, yet they welcome that with open arms?
 
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Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Why do some gamers care so much about DS difficulty, when every other game out there from sports to fighting games have multiple levels from Novice to Superstar mode with tons of slider tweaks, yet they welcome that with open arms?
Because it’s simply their choice to include difficulty and we might even see difficulty option for n new Armour Core series…..in the end it’s up to each devs how they want design their games.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Because it’s simply their choice to include difficulty and we might even see difficulty option for n new Armour Core series…..in the end it’s up to each devs how they want design their games.

But what about gamers who purposely only want one hard game difficulty?
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
But what about gamers who purposely only want one hard game difficulty?
Just like everybody else, they need to respect devs decision. I personally value devs choice and freedom to make whatever they want because if we lose that then game industry is fucked.
 

Chronicle

Member
For those who voted no, would you support refunds for players who are unable to complete games because they’re too difficult?
There is always one person on here who smokes crack.

Sure put in an easy mode. For all those folks out there who don't like it they can play the 'hard' mode.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Just like everybody else, they need to respect devs decision. I personally value devs choice and freedom to make whatever they want because if we lose that then game industry is fucked.
As I said before, there's a topic beyond dev's decisions. That's gamer attitude.

Some gamers just want one hard difficulty level no matter what. That's entitlement, so they can brag to the world they beat a video game. The vast majority of games have various difficulty levels and sliders so it cant be that hard to add to a game.

However, you only see this kind of attitude for DS games. They feel like shit if they'd know a guy beat the game on an easier skill. Like it's some kind of demoralizer in life. I've never seen one gamer ever who plays sports or fighting games or recent big games like Horizon or GOW say they want the AI to only be set at Superstar/Expert level difficulty level.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
As I said before, there's a topic beyond dev's decisions. That's gamer attitude.

Some gamers just want one hard difficulty level no matter what. That's entitlement, so they can brag to the world they beat a video game. The vast majority of games have various difficulty levels and sliders so it cant be that hard to add to a game.
That can be said about people who think every game needs to appeal to them but that’s not how reality works. Not every game meant to appeal to everyone.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
That can be said about people who think every game needs to appeal to them but that’s not how reality works. Not every game meant to appeal to everyone.
Fair point.

Also what is reality. Gamers who support multiple game difficulties enjoy playing the game at their skill and dont care what mode other people play the same game at. The "I only want one hard difficulty" crowd care a lot about what other gamers play at. And if they dont like it or know someone is playing at a different skill level, they feel like shit.

It's very similar to ports. When an exclusive game goes multiplatform, somehow they instantly feel like shit even though those games are still coming out for their platform going forward day one. How or why random people playing the same game on another piece of plastic two years later is some kind of ego crushing demoralizer. Silly.
 
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KXVXII9X

Member
But half the draw of beating a souls game is the sense of personal achievement when you overcome the difficulty posed to you, Putting an easy mode in would undermine the game entirely.

I think getting your head around the fact that some things just aren’t for everyone is a fantastic realisation that most people need to wake up to, not saying you specifically but honestly I take great pleasure in finding something I really enjoy that dosent always resonate with other around me.

Play what you like not what you wished you could like.
That implies everyone gets personal achievement over hard games. Just because something is challenging doesn't mean overcoming it would be satisfying. I did have personal satisfaction over Bloodborne (it was exhilarating), but I felt with Elden Ring I was going through the motions and cheesing things. It just wasn't fun for me no matter how much I wanted it to be. There should be a balance. Not everyone has the time, or zeal to spend hours accomplishing something in a video game when they could use that time on something tangible. Dying and starting over may be fun for the first 10 hours but I don't think everyone would find it fun if they found they barely made any progress.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Fair point.

Also what is reality. Gamers who support multiple game difficulties enjoy playing the game at their skill and dont care what mode other people play the same game at. The "I only want one hard difficulty" crowd care a lot about what other gamers play at. And if they dont like it or know someone is playing at a different skill level, they feel like shit.

It's very similar to ports. When an exclusive game goes multiplatform, somehow they instantly feel like shit even though those games are still coming out for their platform going forward day one. How or why random people playing the same game on another piece of plastic two years later is some kind of ego crushing demoralizer. Silly.
i said this many times in this type of thread. We 1000 up on 1000 games with multiple difficulty settings, there is nothing wrong with few games with no difficulty games. You choices what game is right for you.

If you don’t like games with one difficulty the just don’t buy it or use mod for PC version.
 
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ironmang

Member
As I said before, there's a topic beyond dev's decisions. That's gamer attitude.

Some gamers just want one hard difficulty level no matter what. That's entitlement, so they can brag to the world they beat a video game. The vast majority of games have various difficulty levels and sliders so it cant be that hard to add to a game.

However, you only see this kind of attitude for DS games. They feel like shit if they'd know a guy beat the game on an easier skill. Like it's some kind of demoralizer in life. I've never seen one gamer ever who plays sports or fighting games or recent big games like Horizon or GOW say they want the AI to only be set at Superstar/Expert level difficulty level.
I must have missed all the articles, threads, and tweets from people who wanted difficulty options removed from games.
 

Thief1987

Member
Yes, why not? Let's people enjoy games the way they want, don't listen to entitled gamers™ whose biggest achievement in the life is completing of "hard" games.
 

KXVXII9X

Member
So funnily enough I just bought Mario and Rabbids Spark of Hope yesterday and showcases everything I love about games being accessible.

The game doesn't just have an easy, medium and hard mode. You can adjust certain aspects of difficulty to your liking and you aren't stuck on any difficulty after you decide it.

It has other quality of life aspects I hope make it to other games like being able to reallocate all your skill points pain free without having to do anything. It makes experimenting less stressful since you don't have to be locked into a mistake. The game will also give you the option to set the skill points automatically if you wish.

I still don't think developers HAVE to implement difficulty options since it is their game, but it is highly appreciated and going forward, I will mostly stick to games that give me this option. Everyone else is free to do what they like.
 

Kamina

Golden Boy
The game is a product envisioned by it‘s creator. If the creator wants to have it a certain way then it will be so.
There is no need to appeal to everyone.
 
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