Support NeoGAF

[Rob_27]

Anybody playing this on Switch Lite? How is it? I haven't played the game since it came out on the Wii. I had a great time back then. I'm kinda on the fence, I'm in the mood for some Zelda.

Yes. Not played the original or with Motion so only have the lite to judge. Its not bad once you get used the holding different buttons.

 

[Laieon]

I had the opposite opinion. It felt like Zelda going back to its pre-OoT roots.

I don't really agree. I think ALTTP and Link's Awakening both feel closer to OOT in structure than they do Zelda 1 or BOTW (especially ALTTP, which almost feels like OOT 2D). I definitely agree that BOTW goes back to Zelda 1 in a lot ways, but I also think Zelda 1 (before BOTW came a long) was really the only game in the series to be built and have the design decisions that it did, it doesn't really feel like it was part of the series that it spawned (outside of shared items, the world, and monsters of course...). Even Zelda II plays quite a bit differently.

 

[Azelover]

This version is much better than the old one, in the context of just being a game. When you add in time of release and how the assets have aged, that a whole different beast.

 

[Mato]

I actually don't get the hate this game EVER received! Played it this weekend for the 1st time and I'm loving it! I really enjoyed BOTW but I just wanted a more linear Zelda game. This is exactly how I remember Zelda games to be and I love it.

It's pretty great, screw the haters.

 

[jigglet]

Ok I've finished working on this, check it out:



Some background on it here:

So I hacked Skyward Sword and fixed the shitty controls

UPDATE: Here's my finished work: (disclosure: I don't work for Titan but I am a mod on their forum) Also please ignore my input lag and video quality. I am playing on a 10 year old factory second TV that I bought for $200 and filming it with a 5 year old phone...

www.neogaf.com

(disclosure: I don't work for Titan but I am a mod on their forum)

 

[22•22]

Finished the first dungeon and I'm simply Loving this game. I know fuck all about all of it so everything is a suprise; lovely. Beetle drone <3

I'm playing with the analog stick and yes it's not very intuitive (which ofcourse makes perfect sense) and muscle memory causes me to unsheath my sword everytime I want to look around (always) and when in a pinch I seriously tend to fumble around but it doesn't matter; I'm having a blast.

With that said I'm very very fond of the graphics (artstyle, performance) and sound <3

 

[Punished Miku]

Hopefully my copy will actually get here today. Screw you Best Buy.

 

[jigglet]

With that said I'm very very fond of the graphics (artstyle, performance) and sound <3

Same. I think it's got some of the best characters in Zelda. Like Beedle and all the other zany people.

 

[NomadicAsiatic]

It’s 50 on Amazon. Should I bite?

 

[ArtemisClydeFrog]

It’s 50 on Amazon. Should I bite?

Spoiler

 

[NomadicAsiatic]

Shot in the dark..! Ordered

 

[IbizaPocholo]

All the flaws in Skyward Sword feel that much more disappointing because this is a game with so many redeeming qualities. The soundtrack is amazing, the story is probably one of the best this series has ever told, the combat with motion controls can be a lot of fun, and the dungeons, as I've mentioned, are excellent.

Sure enough, Skyward Sword HD is a better game than the original Wii title, but for all the improvements it makes, it is still a deeply flawed experience- and no amount of quality-of-life changes could ever fix that, because that's unfortunately just how the game was designed. I'd still recommend it to Zelda fans, because when Skyward Sword is good, it's very good. It's just that there are large portions of the game when it's far, far from good.

 

[jigglet]

I haven't been able to put my finger on why the right stick combat feels shit until now.

It works very nicely in For Honor. It's snappy and responsive. I was left very confused about why this same control scheme didn't work for Skyward?

Here's why: in For Honor the use of the analogue stick is 100% binary, what I mean by this is if you move the stick even 1mm to the left it will activate the left guard. Simple.

In Skyward it's momentum based - try slowly moving your stick to the side...notice the sword doesn't swipe at all. Even if you move it all the way to the outer edge, if you do it slowly it won't register. You have to flick it really quickly. If you're at the end of a long day, tired and a bit sluggish...if you're not making rapid movements you'll notice your sword just won't register a lot of the time.

The solution seems easy right, make it binary like For Honor? Not necessarily, the reason why SS is momentum based is because they want to allow you to move your sword around without actually swinging it - see for example the puzzle where you have to spell out an O with your sword to make that eyeball spin around. You're required to move your sword around without activating a swipe.

With this in mind, this is how I would have handled it:

1) You make the analogue stick purely binary like For Honor. Even the slightest tap of the stick will activate a swipe of the sword. That would make it crisp and responsive.

2) To move the sword around without swiping it, you use motion controls.

Tada. And there you have it.

 

[NomadicAsiatic]

I haven't been able to put my finger on why the right stick combat feels shit until now.

It works very nicely in For Honor. It's snappy and responsive. I was left very confused about why this same control scheme didn't work for Skyward?

Here's why: in For Honor the use of the analogue stick is 100% binary, what I mean by this is if you move the stick even 1mm to the left it will activate the left guard. Simple.

In Skyward it's momentum based - try slowly moving your stick to the side...notice the sword doesn't swipe at all. You have to flick it really quickly. If you're at the end of a long day, tired and a bit sluggish...if you're not making rapid movements you'll notice your sword just won't register a lot of the time.

The solution seems easy right, make it binary like For Honor? Not necessarily, the reason why SS is momentum based is because they want to allow you to move your sword around without actually swinging it - see for example the puzzle where you have to spell out an O with your sword to make that eyeball spin around. You're required to move your sword around without activating a swipe.

With this in mind, this is how I would have handled it:

1) You make the analogue stick purely binary like For Honor. Even the slightest tap of the stick will activate a swipe of the sword. That would make it crisp and responsive.

2) To move the sword around without swiping it, you use motion controls.

Tada. And there you have it.

Probably a dumb question but, how do the motion controls work in this version?

 

[jigglet]

Probably a dumb question but, how do the motion controls work in this version?

It serves two purposes, just like the stick. It moves your sword around if you move your hand slowly. And if you do rapid strikes it will swipe the sword in one of 8 different directions (9 if you include thrust).

This is the heart of the issue - it's trying to serve two purposes. It works ok with motion, but absolutely sucks with a stick. Try For Honor and you'll see what I mean. For Honor is so snappy compared to this, because it doesn't attempt to simultaneously map two functions to the one stick.

What I am proposing is a hybrid control scheme whereby you have BOTH motion and the analogue stick. That way you're splitting the two functions and not trying to combine them and causing a mess in the process.

 

[Porcile]

I haven't been able to put my finger on why the right stick combat feels shit until now.

It works very nicely in For Honor. It's snappy and responsive. I was left very confused about why this same control scheme didn't work for Skyward?

Here's why: in For Honor the use of the analogue stick is 100% binary, what I mean by this is if you move the stick even 1mm to the left it will activate the left guard. Simple.

In Skyward it's momentum based - try slowly moving your stick to the side...notice the sword doesn't swipe at all. Even if you move it all the way to the outer edge, if you do it slowly it won't register. You have to flick it really quickly. If you're at the end of a long day, tired and a bit sluggish...if you're not making rapid movements you'll notice your sword just won't register a lot of the time.

The solution seems easy right, make it binary like For Honor? Not necessarily, the reason why SS is momentum based is because they want to allow you to move your sword around without actually swinging it - see for example the puzzle where you have to spell out an O with your sword to make that eyeball spin around. You're required to move your sword around without activating a swipe.

With this in mind, this is how I would have handled it:

1) You make the analogue stick purely binary like For Honor. Even the slightest tap of the stick will activate a swipe of the sword. That would make it crisp and responsive.

2) To move the sword around without swiping it, you use motion controls.

Tada. And there you have it.

The game is already finicky about sword swipe inputs and you want to make it more sensitive?!

 

[jigglet]

The game is already finicky about sword swipe inputs and you want to make it more sensitive?!

I think you've missed the point of my post. Try For Honor and see just how insanely snappy the right stick is.

Skyward use of the right stick is momentum based. It should be binary / digital. That's the crux of what I'm saying.

I've spent the last few days studying the hell out of the controls and using my analyser tools to dig deep into how Nintendo have designed it:

So I hacked Skyward Sword and fixed the shitty controls

UPDATE: Here's my finished work: (disclosure: I don't work for Titan but I am a mod on their forum) Also please ignore my input lag and video quality. I am playing on a 10 year old factory second TV that I bought for $200 and filming it with a 5 year old phone...

www.neogaf.com

 

[22•22]

I haven't been able to put my finger on why the right stick combat feels shit until now.

It works very nicely in For Honor. It's snappy and responsive. I was left very confused about why this same control scheme didn't work for Skyward?

Here's why: in For Honor the use of the analogue stick is 100% binary, what I mean by this is if you move the stick even 1mm to the left it will activate the left guard. Simple.

In Skyward it's momentum based - try slowly moving your stick to the side...notice the sword doesn't swipe at all. Even if you move it all the way to the outer edge, if you do it slowly it won't register. You have to flick it really quickly. If you're at the end of a long day, tired and a bit sluggish...if you're not making rapid movements you'll notice your sword just won't register a lot of the time.

The solution seems easy right, make it binary like For Honor? Not necessarily, the reason why SS is momentum based is because they want to allow you to move your sword around without actually swinging it - see for example the puzzle where you have to spell out an O with your sword to make that eyeball spin around. You're required to move your sword around without activating a swipe.

With this in mind, this is how I would have handled it:

1) You make the analogue stick purely binary like For Honor. Even the slightest tap of the stick will activate a swipe of the sword. That would make it crisp and responsive.

2) To move the sword around without swiping it, you use motion controls.

Tada. And there you have it.

Nice observation.

Indeed. Momentum works wonders for motion based input: wrist >> thumb.. less travel. Thumb works as well ofcourse but there's more travel>>time required for same input and seeing combat is the same pace it's slower

Or something...

 

[jigglet]

Nice observation.

Indeed. Momentum works wonders for motion based input: wrist >> thumb.. less travel. Thumb works as well ofcourse but there's more travel>>time required for same input and seeing combat is the same pace it's slower

Or something...

Yeah exactly. It's easier to put momentum behind your whole arm or wrist. But your thumbs aren't used to momentum / acceleration based movement, only binary / digital or distance (push a little or all the way). I just don't think what Nintendo have done works well.

For Honor is the best example of how to do it (even though I don't like using the stick for this type of thing to begin with).

 

[NomadicAsiatic]

It serves two purposes, just like the stick. It moves your sword around if you move your hand slowly. And if you do rapid strikes it will swipe the sword in one of 8 different directions (9 if you include thrust).

This is the heart of the issue - it's trying to serve two purposes. It works ok with motion, but absolutely sucks with a stick. Try For Honor and you'll see what I mean. For Honor is so snappy compared to this, because it doesn't attempt to simultaneously map two functions to the one stick.

What I am proposing is a hybrid control scheme whereby you have BOTH motion and the analogue stick. That way you're splitting the two functions and not trying to combine them and causing a mess in the process.

Tha

It serves two purposes, just like the stick. It moves your sword around if you move your hand slowly. And if you do rapid strikes it will swipe the sword in one of 8 different directions (9 if you include thrust).

This is the heart of the issue - it's trying to serve two purposes. It works ok with motion, but absolutely sucks with a stick. Try For Honor and you'll see what I mean. For Honor is so snappy compared to this, because it doesn't attempt to simultaneously map two functions to the one stick.

What I am proposing is a hybrid control scheme whereby you have BOTH motion and the analogue stick. That way you're splitting the two functions and not trying to combine them and causing a mess in the process.

That sounds dreadful

 

[jigglet]

That sounds dreadful

Except it would work brilliantly.

 

[KungFucius]

you are supposed to move the sword to the starting point of the motion and then follow through. When you say binary do you mean that instead of that you just move the direction you want it to end on?

 

[Spukc]

I think you've missed the point of my post. Try For Honor and see just how insanely snappy the right stick is.

Skyward use of the right stick is momentum based. It should be binary / digital. That's the crux of what I'm saying.

I've spent the last few days studying the hell out of the controls and using my analyser tools to dig deep into how Nintendo have designed it:

So I hacked Skyward Sword and fixed the shitty controls

UPDATE: Here's my finished work: (disclosure: I don't work for Titan but I am a mod on their forum) Also please ignore my input lag and video quality. I am playing on a 10 year old factory second TV that I bought for $200 and filming it with a 5 year old phone...

www.neogaf.com

not sure that fixes it tbh.

it just turns it into another shade of shit

 

[jigglet]

you are supposed to move the sword to the starting point of the motion and then follow through. When you say binary do you mean that instead of that you just move the direction you want it to end on?

How it currently works (momentum / acceleration based): try moving the stick slowly to the edge. It won't swipe the sword. You need to do it fast for it to register.
How I propose it works (binary / digital) move the stick even 1mm and it will register (this is how For Honor does it). Slow, fast, it shouldn't matter.

 

[jigglet]

not sure that fixes it tbh.

it just turns it into another shade of shit

I mean it's not theoretical. For Honor does it and it's snappy as hell.

 

[BlackTron]

With this in mind, this is how I would have handled it:

1) You make the analogue stick purely binary like For Honor. Even the slightest tap of the stick will activate a swipe of the sword. That would make it crisp and responsive.

2) To move the sword around without swiping it, you use motion controls.

Tada. And there you have it.

But the entire point of the new control scheme was to get rid of all the motion controls lol.

What you're saying still makes sense, but maybe a better solution would be to make it so that the stick makes the sword move slowly when you hold down a button. Switch certainly has more buttons than a remote+nunchuck anyway so.

 

[jigglet]

But the entire point of the new control scheme was to get rid of all the motion controls lol.

What you're saying still makes sense, but maybe a better solution would be to make it so that the stick makes the sword move slowly when you hold down a button. Switch certainly has more buttons than a remote+nunchuck anyway so.

Ok sure that's not a bad idea, but I would flip it: default is combat, and a modifier button for moving the sword around.

Motion isn't even the point really. It's making combat non-acceleration based. This is what makes it feel like slop.

 

[BlackTron]

Ok sure, but I would flip it: default is combat, modifier button is moving the sword around.

Motion isn't even the point really. It's making combat non-acceleration based. This is what makes it feel like slop.

I get what the point was, I was just suggesting a solution that accomplished your point (non-acceleration based sword) with Nintendo's point (a scheme without motion control).

I don't think you flipped my solution, we're in agreement there. I said that holding the button down would make the sword move slowly, that is, for moving it around freehand.

 

[jigglet]

I get what the point was, I was just suggesting a solution that accomplished your point (non-acceleration based sword) with Nintendo's point (a scheme without motion control).

I don't think you flipped my solution, we're in agreement there. I said that holding the button down would make the sword move slowly, that is, for moving it around freehand.

Ah yes, I've had a few drinks so my reading is impaired

I think we've come up with a brilliant solution! Make the modifier key the Z targeting button and it fits naturally within the existing control scheme.

 

[NomadicAsiatic]

Except it would work brilliantly.

No I was agreeing with you. I’m saying that the Skyward Sword controls sound dreadful

 

[jigglet]

No I was agreeing with you. I’m saying that the Skyward Sword controls sound dreadful

Oh I see. Yeah it sucks balls. I don't know what Nintendo was thinking...

It feels like they barely even tested any alternatives.

 

[TitanNut88]

Game might be good (I never had a Wii so I never played the game until now) but button controls are the worst controls ever. Period.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Tempted to pick this up to play with the motion controls...35 Squid in the UK with the steelbook and keyring......hmmmmm. do I need more of a backlog??

 

[NomadicAsiatic]

Oh I see. Yeah it sucks balls. I don't know what Nintendo was thinking...

It feels like they barely even tested any alternatives.

Can you elaborate more wrt playability? Are the controls at least responsive?

 

[jigglet]

Can you elaborate more wrt playability? Are the controls at least responsive?

Motion controls - no better or worse than they used to be. You need to recalibrate more often, however it's also easier to recalibrate (there's a dedicated button for it now) so it's kind of even compared to Wii.

Analogue stick controls - really sloppy due to the acceleration issue I've been discussing in this page. Absolutely awful.

 

[NomadicAsiatic]

Motion controls - no better or worse than they used to be. You need to recalibrate more often, however it's also easier to recalibrate (there's a dedicated button for it now) so it's kind of even compared to Wii.

Analogue stick controls - really sloppy due to the acceleration issue I've been discussing in this page. Absolutely awful.

Noooo and I just bought it

 

[jigglet]

Noooo and I just bought it

I think motion controls are the way to go but don't get discouraged, it seems like many actually like the stick controls. I'm not sure if they're being delusional or not lol.

Great game though if you can look past the controls.

 

[Astral Dog]

I enjoyed Skyward Sword back on the Wii but im waiting for Twilight Princess to come to Switch, just fancy a traditional Zelda control scheme , maybe they could even fit the Wii controls as an option for motion aficionados.

Also the tone and design of SS is not what i want for Zelda, Hyrule animal friends teaching you the controls always felt more like a platformer than a epic adventure.

 

[BlackTron]

So far I'm liking this quite a bit more than I did in 2011. I think I'm just so tired of open world games (and really, really missed the dungeon aspect of Zelda that BOTW so severely lacked) that this more linear experience is a breath of fresh air.

Link's Awakening remake was a well-timed antidote to how utterly un-zelda-like BOTW was. At the time I was hungrier than ever for a normal-ass zelda game already.

 

[Laieon]

Link's Awakening remake was a well-timed antidote to how utterly un-zelda-like BOTW was. At the time I was hungrier than ever for a normal-ass zelda game already.

As someone who went into BOTW somewhat blind, I still feel extremely misled by what I consider one of the greatest trailers of all time.



It makes BOTW look like it's telling a big, epic narrative with an incredible orchestrated soundtrack when the reality was that the story was a footnote and the music was almost completely forgettable. As much as I love the trailer, in retrospect I don't think it gives an accurate depiction of the game at all.

 

[jigglet]

As someone who went into BOTW somewhat blind, I still feel extremely misled by what I consider one of the greatest trailers of all time.



It makes BOTW look like it's telling a big, epic narrative with an incredible orchestrated soundtrack when the reality was that the story was a footnote and the music was almost completely forgettable. As much as I love the trailer, in retrospect I don't think it gives an accurate depiction of the game at all.

Even though Nintendo are generally shit at telling a good story, Zelda games tend to be the exception. However you just so happened to choose a Zelda game that's quite light on story.

It's just bad luck really.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

Even though Nintendo are generally shit at telling a good story, Zelda games tend to be the exception. However you just so happened to choose a Zelda game that's quite light on story.

It's just bad luck really.

For what it's worth, in many ways this game was a return to the original (NES) feeling of Zelda, which was to have a large, mysterious, and initially challenging / dangerous world open to you, but very little emphasis on story. Personally, I found it to be a wonderful shift for the franchise, and hope that they take BOTW to be something like a third rebirth for Zelda (1st being NES, 2nd being the OOT paradigm we've been stuck in for far too long).

 

[BlackTron]

As someone who went into BOTW somewhat blind, I still feel extremely misled by what I consider one of the greatest trailers of all time.



It makes BOTW look like it's telling a big, epic narrative with an incredible orchestrated soundtrack when the reality was that the story was a footnote and the music was almost completely forgettable. As much as I love the trailer, in retrospect I don't think it gives an accurate depiction of the game at all.

I agree the trailer was insane. The real game was a let-down compared to the trailer.

Legend of Zelda shouldn't be any part of some bait n' switch story, especially a "big one" like this.

Lately I ran through a few levels/areas each of a bunch of N64 games. I found OOT had a save right before Ganon's castle. I played through the castle and ending and realized I had more fun doing that than the entire BOTW game lol. They have gone so far away from made old Zelda so great that I only watch the series with a bleak optimism at this point. I can't say they're all bad games; they're just failing to fulfill my fix for a proper Zelda title with more content than gimmicks. Whenever I start to think I'm just getting old and grouchy, I'll play an old game again and it's so in my face how much more fun I'm having with it.

BOTW is amazing on a technical level and has its merits. I consider it a Princess Mononoke Simulator, which is pretty bad ass actually. But if it had a 50% smaller overworld and added in 9 dungeons, it could have been the best Zelda ever. It might also have matched the game in the trailer! They did great work making strides into new areas; they forgot to hold on to their old strides which formed the basis.

 

[22•22]

So Skyward Sword had Time Travel aspects....

 

[FStubbs]

For what it's worth, in many ways this game was a return to the original (NES) feeling of Zelda, which was to have a large, mysterious, and initially challenging / dangerous world open to you, but very little emphasis on story. Personally, I found it to be a wonderful shift for the franchise, and hope that they take BOTW to be something like a third rebirth for Zelda (1st being NES, 2nd being the OOT paradigm we've been stuck in for far too long).

This. BotW felt like a return to form for me. The only flaw I had with the game was breakable weapons (which admittedly was a big flaw)

 

[22•22]

This. BotW felt like a return to form for me. The only flaw I had with the game was breakable weapons (which admittedly was a big flaw)

Same here. I adore BoTW. In many ways it's a true reimagining of it's original origins. But let's not pretend that beside its accomplishments it's more or less a blueprint to be build upon. It has numerous flaws. You (should) know it, I know, we all know it. Weapon degradation isn't even in the top 3.

 

[Silvawuff]

Reading all these reviews/responses, I feel comfortable skipping this. Ninty, show us so TP and WW love here. I'd be in for those.

 

[chris121580]

I’m the opposite of most. I’m getting toward the tail end of the game and have loved every minute of it. You can see a lot of the ideas in this game were taken and fleshed out with Breath of the Wild.

I was hesitant to buy this but I’m so glad I did. It’s such a joy to play and I think it looks great

 

[GhostOfTsu]

The game is impressive for it's time but it's so long. Like it doesn't want to end and you keep going back to the same worlds over and over. Killing the same boss multiple times, silent realms 4 times, mandatory fetch quests for tadpoles, songs, flames, triforce etc. ENOUGH!! They should have added a skip feature for some things and a invincibility mode just to get it over with.

I did a trade for Monster Hunter Stories 2 instead. I was almost done but I couldn't deal with it anymore. Too repetitive and the controls were still frustrating to me.

 

[Dr Bass]

I’m the opposite of most. I’m getting toward the tail end of the game and have loved every minute of it. You can see a lot of the ideas in this game were taken and fleshed out with Breath of the Wild.

I was hesitant to buy this but I’m so glad I did. It’s such a joy to play and I think it looks great

Yeah, had the same experience when it originally came out. I'll get it again on Switch eventually.