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[Heisenberg007]

Thread is funny. When a company as big and successful as Microsoft goes balls deep into something, only a fool dismisses it.

You must be joking, right? You're assuming Microsoft can never make any mistake, and whatever they do, others must follow and they are fools if they don't?

So when Xbox went all-in with "TV TV TV" and Kinect and online DRM, Sony and Nintendo should have followed suit? How did that work out for Microsoft?

No company is perfect. They all make mistakes. Xbox did plenty of times; PS did with PS3.

Both companies are doing what is working best for them. I say we let them. They don't have to follow each other. Sony already has the most popular gaming subscription service right now (PS+). If one day, Gamepass starts overtaking PS+, Sony would know which strategy is finally gaining traction, and they can very easily pivot. I don't see any point in losing revenue for years until that point reaches (if ever), chasing a strategy that their competitor (Xbox) is following, which, btw, generates significantly lower revenue than the PlayStation division.

 

[Jormatar]

Good.

As long as they are one of the few companies to deliver "AAAA" game experiences in this industry, I don't have any reason to stop paying the full price for their services. Whether it's food or video games, If I pay premium, I expect to get premium. So far Sony hasn't let me down in that area. And as long as they won't, I'll be a happy customer.

 

[SLB1904]

Lol there is a mod ninja in this thread

 

[Papacheeks]

Lol there is a mod ninja in this thread

I was getting ready to reply to the person who was linking colteastwood of all people.

Colt is a fucking moron.

 

[mckmas8808]

Lol, such bs. Let's not pretend you aren't doing it because the quality will go lower, you're not doing it because you believe you can get more money out of consumers when you sell it day one. The Playstation division is making a profit, you could allocate that profit towards putting your games on a subscription service.

Isn't the bolded his point? Do you think you are entitled to play games, but not buy any of them?

 

[Zimmy68]

Translation... Guys we are trying to get the $70 MSRP thing going, how well will that work when you expect it for free on day one???

 

[kingfey]

Thread is funny. When a company as big and successful as Microsoft goes balls deep into something, only a fool dismisses it. They aren't flawless, and have made some big mistakes over the years, but the subscription model has been hugely successful for them in other areas, so they understand it better than (I'd guess) anyone on here, and better than the Sony exec. They are more successful now than at any point in their history, and it's built almost entirely on subs and services. You don't think they've thought about the potential drawbacks being raised here?

I had my 'skeptical of subscription' moment years ago - I thought streaming video was a joke and would never take off. Can't remember the last time I bought a film or even saw a disc now. Same with music. Games will be exactly the same.

I don't have a dog in the fight, but watching with interest. If I was a rabid Sony fanboy I'd post like many on this thread, but also feel a little apprehensive about what the medium to long term future looks like.

We have a subscription for car wash.
At this point, everything is on subscription.

 

[Knightime_X]

I just want short and sweet games.
No need for this watered down, open world, 80hr nonsense.

Give me a 2-20hr game that's packed with action.
Basically give me games from 16bit to ps2 era.

 

[Plantoid]

Imo Sony should keep doing what they're doing, it's working, why change?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Imo Sony should keep doing what they're doing, it's working, why change?

 

[mckmas8808]

Thread is funny. When a company as big and successful as Microsoft goes balls deep into something, only a fool dismisses it. They aren't flawless, and have made some big mistakes over the years, but the subscription model has been hugely successful for them in other areas, so they understand it better than (I'd guess) anyone on here, and better than the Sony exec. They are more successful now than at any point in their history, and it's built almost entirely on subs and services. You don't think they've thought about the potential drawbacks being raised here?

I had my 'skeptical of subscription' moment years ago - I thought streaming video was a joke and would never take off. Can't remember the last time I bought a film or even saw a disc now. Same with music. Games will be exactly the same.

I don't have a dog in the fight, but watching with interest. If I was a rabid Sony fanboy I'd post like many on this thread, but also feel a little apprehensive about what the medium to long term future looks like.

I bet $1 to your $100 that MS will not get it to "work" by 2030. And by "work" I mean, make it the only way to play games. Even with subs like Netflix and HBO Max, you still need a service that allows you to buy the movie to own it (via download or physical media).

At this point culturally, the gaming community seems to be splitting into two thoughts of the mind.

1. I don't ever want to own most of my games. Rentals for lyfe!
2. I DO want to own most or all of my games (be it digital downloads or physical media).

 

[DarkMage619]

I bet $1 to your $100 that MS will not get it to "work" by 2030. And by "work" I mean, make it the only way to play games. Even with subs like Netflix and HBO Max, you still need a service that allows you to buy the movie to own it (via download or physical media).

At this point culturally, the gaming community seems to be splitting into two thoughts of the mind.

1. I don't ever want to own most of my games. Rentals for lyfe!
2. I DO want to own most or all of my games (be it digital downloads or physical media).

I've seen no evidence that MS wants to make streaming the only way to play games. I've also haven't seen anyone advocating against being able to purchase software. Both are optional which is a fantastic value add when on an Xbox or PC platform.

 

[KXVXII9X]

What makes a game "Quality" is the real question? Is it this...

Seems the loud majority have decided that 3rd person single player adventure games are the bar for which "quality" is judged. Beyond this one genre of games I don't see where Sony's "quality" is any better than any other developer.

While I'm kind of tired of this template, PlayStation does offer more variety of exclusives than this cherry-picked template. They also output games like Dreams, The Last Guardian, Astros Playroom, Returnal, Knack, Gran Turismo, Destruction All-stars, Hotshot Golf, Stray, Sifu, Ratchet and Clank, and even VR titles. They are also coming out with Final Fantasy XVI and (possibly) Dragon Quest XII as exclusives as well that don't necessarily fall into the template. I thought The Last of Us Part 2, God of War, and Ghost of Tsushima were very strong titles despite feeling familiar. No wonder Japan Studios and Dreams don't reach as much success. People want something different but ignore it when it comes.

 

[KXVXII9X]

Last of us graphic with RPG game would a chefs kiss for me.

The best part of that game is due to not being an RPG and relying on physics, and interesting NPC AI and behavior. It has a strong level design that would be wasted if it were yet another RPG where the enemies were bullet sponges and reacted the same no matter where you shot them or approached them. No thanks.

 

[Punished Miku]

I've seen no evidence that MS wants to make streaming the only way to play games. I've also haven't seen anyone advocating against being able to purchase software. Both are optional which is a fantastic value add when on an Xbox or PC platform.

Yeah, I thought that part was strange as well. One of the main things that has made me a fan of their approach is that it's all optional. While they push streaming and cloud, they're also honoring digital purchases from Xbox 1 and promoting greater preservation / ownership. Hope it stays that way.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Based on a few comments I read, people really gotta stop using what Sony says they can't do to assume it must also apply to Microsoft. These two companies are not the same.

Microsoft is valued at $1.98 Trillion dollars right now.

Sony is valued at $101 Billion.

For years people have said Microsoft's money isn't Xbox's money, but after Bethesda and Activision is that really all that true anymore? Microsoft is serious about gaming in a way they've never been before.

Microsoft's largest ever acquisition in history as a company will be their $68.7 billion Activision purchase, a purchase that is being made for Xbox and Game Pass and because Microsoft now realize that Xbox and gaming success will = further success for their cloud business.

For their 2021 fiscal year (ending June 30th 2021), Microsoft brought in $168 billion in revenue with $70 billion in operating income. That is literally 70% of Sony's entire company's worth/value in profit in a single year, and theyre likely going to break new records with their fiscal year 2022.

To keep saying its impossible to have high quality games while also putting them day one on Game Pass simply because a less financially capable company says they can't do the same (something I honestly don't buy for a second, and you shouldn't either) is crazy.

Starfield, Elder Scrolls 6, Hellblade 2, Indiana Jones, Redfall, Fable, Perfect Dark, Avowed, Contraband, The Outer Worlds 2, and a whole host of other games are in the pipeline that will basically make a lie of these assumptions. And what will be the explanation for how it was possible? Microsoft is just better at business than Sony? Nope. Maybe Microsoft due to their company's strength simply has options available to them Sony does not.

With all that said, for how many more years will Microsoft need to prove people wrong about what's financially feasible with Game Pass day ones? Last year was a strong first party year (even stronger if you count Bethesda, as you should) this year is going to be better.

Edit: Posted from phone so made those images much smaller once I got to PC.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Based on a few comments I read, people really gotta stop using what Sony says they can't do to assume it must also apply to Microsoft. These two companies are not the same.

And vise/versa. Sadly, this will never end, as long as people take black and white, non contextual or nuanced sides.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

PS+ already too much value to most casuals.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Based on a few comments I read, people really gotta stop using what Sony says they can't do to assume it must also apply to Microsoft. These two companies are not the same.

Microsoft is valued at $1.98 Trillion dollars right now.

Sony is valued at $101 Billion.

For years people have said Microsoft's money isn't Xbox's money, but after Bethesda and Activision is that really all that true anymore? Microsoft is serious about gaming in a way they've never been before.

Microsoft's largest ever acquisition in history as a company will be their $68.7 billion Activision purchase, a purchase that is being made for Xbox and Game Pass and because Microsoft now realize that Xbox and gaming success will = further success for their cloud business.

For their 2021 fiscal year (ending June 30th 2021), Microsoft brought in $168 billion in revenue with $70 billion in operating income. That is literally 70% of Sony's entire company's worth/value in profit in a single year, and theyre likely going to break new records with their fiscal year 2022.

To keep saying its impossible to have high quality games while also putting them day one on Game Pass simply because a less financially capable company says they can't do the same (something I honestly don't buy for a second, and you shouldn't either) is crazy.

Starfield, Elder Scrolls 6, Hellblade 2, Indiana Jones, Redfall, Fable, Perfect Dark, Avowed, Contraband, The Outer Worlds 2, and a whole host of other games are in the pipeline that will basically make a lie of these assumptions. And what will be the explanation for how it was possible? Microsoft is just better at business than Sony? Nope. Maybe Microsoft due to their company's strength simply has options available to them Sony does not.

With all that said, for how many more years will Microsoft need to prove people wrong about what's financially feasible with Game Pass day ones? Last year was a strong first party year (even stronger if you count Bethesda, as you should) this year is going to be better.

You can buy Microsoft, but you can't buy Sony. It's protected by the Japanese government, so those are just for what's been offered in that said market. Another share is in Japan's stock market as well.

 

[Aguero9320]

You must be joking, right? You're assuming Microsoft can never make any mistake, and whatever they do, others must follow and they are fools if they don't?

Not really. Like I said, they've made mistakes, but this is a company wide shift (and you could even say societal shift tbh) to services as the main driver of business, not a console operating system, or a botched controller.

Innovation always comes with risk, but here they aren't really even innovating - just following the trends/successes seen in other very similar markets, and will most likely benefit by being first (IMO) due to the reticence, short sightedness and perhaps lack of financial clout of their current competition to implement it even if they wanted to. And I say current, because if they don't pivot they won't be competition in ten years... But of course they will, they have to.

Even a company as big as Microsoft can blow a product launch, but an entire business model? I don't see it - and their profits would suggest it's highly unlikely. Windows, Office, Azure - all services. Movies, TV, Music, meal prep, delivery and a million more, all subscriptions. I subscribe to meat FFS. There is no reason why gaming would be impervious to this change - in fact, it's clearly a perfect fit for it. And it's happening.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Not really. Like I said, they've made mistakes, but this is a company wide shift (and you could even say societal shift tbh) to services as the main driver of business, not a console operating system, or a botched controller.

Innovation always comes with risk, but here they aren't really even innovating - just following the trends/successes seen in other very similar markets, and will most likely benefit by being first (IMO) due to the reticence, short sightedness and perhaps lack of financial clout of their current competition to implement it even if they wanted to. And I say current, because if they don't pivot they won't be competition in ten years... But of course they will, they have to.

Even a company as big as Microsoft can blow a product launch, but an entire business model? I don't see it - and their profits would suggest it's highly unlikely. Windows, Office, Azure - all services. Movies, TV, Music, meal prep, delivery and a million more, all subscriptions. I subscribe to meat FFS. There is no reason why gaming would be impervious to this change - in fact, it's clearly a perfect fit for it. And it's happening.

Whether people like it or not, when it comes to tech sub plans are the future. Movies ad music, MS Office, heck even Photoshop has been sub plan for like 5 years.

For those of you who dont know, the old way of using the latest PS was you paid like $600 for a copy. Now it's $20 or $30/mth. You cant buy a new copy of PS for years, unless you found an old version a store was trying to dump off.

 

[Hezekiah]

No lies detected.

The model they are trying to emulate is Netflix. Most shows on Netflix are of low quality , quantity over quality mentality. You just cant have it both was.

Yeah I mean it has to go one way or the other. Either quality suffers, or prices rise.

Even on this thread there are several who think the GamePass can stay is because muh mtx which everyone will be queuing up to buy, ignoring the number of bargain hunters who will continue to avoid mtx and play games the way they traditionally have, and as cheaply as possible.

No question Sony and Nintendo have run the numbers and know the reality.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yeah I mean it has to go one way or the other. Either quality suffers, or prices rise.

Even on this thread there are several who think the GamePass can stay is because muh mtx which everyone will be queuing up to buy, ignoring the number of bargain hunters who will continue to avoid mtx and play games the way they traditionally have, and as cheaply as possible.

No question Sony and Nintendo have run the numbers ns know the reality.

It can work. All comes down to revenue vs. costs.

In gaming, some of the most successful games out there are F2P models where probably 90% of people dont pay a dime. Yet they rake in the profits.

 

[Hezekiah]

It can work. All comes down to revenue vs. costs.

In gaming, some of the most successful games out there are F2P models where probably 90% of people dont pay a dime. Yet they rake in the profits.

But that's not the model MS is following, and in any case many f2p games flop.

 

[mejin]

Since early 2018 MS offers day one launch on GP, no? This shit takes time cause big games are really rare, most of them are just games to feed the service.

Who knows if people will change their mind with the next batch of games.


Anyway, I don't really care how Sony will offer their games, they just need to continue bring their big AAA single players.

 

[Zeroing]

Whether people like it or not, when it comes to tech sub plans are the future. Movies ad music, MS Office, heck even Photoshop has been sub plan for like 5 years.

For those of you who dont know, the old way of using the latest PS was you paid like $600 for a copy. Now it's $20 or $30/mth. You cant buy a new copy of PS for years, unless you found an old version a store was trying to dump off.

Don’t get me started with photoshop and adobe! This is a company that forces you to put your credit card info just to try their apps!!! This is the same company that got hacked and did nothing and the same company that doesn’t refund if you choose to cancel their plan.
The same company that each year does little tweaks and call it a new version and put all the new features behind the always online feature.

So you just used a very bad example! So that “like it or not it’s the future” it’s complete apathy! That is what many people on the creative field are leaving Adobe and choosing other better and cheaper alternatives

 

[Hezekiah]

Simple math says it's likely not true. I wonder what the real reason is.

Simple math

 

[nominedomine]

Since early 2018 MS offers day one launch on GP, no? This shit takes time cause big games are really rare, most of them are just games to feed the service.

Who knows if people will change their mind with the next batch of games.


Anyway, I don't really care how Sony will offer their games, they just need to continue bring their big AAA single players.

And what was put out by their internal studios in these last 4 years?

If all somebody cared about was day one AAA games from MS they already spent $480 on just Gamepass or or $720 for Ultimate assuming they didn't use some promo.

I cant remember 8 AAA games MS released in the last 4 years worth $60.

Indie and old games are so cheap they add very little value. The big titles are the real draw.

So far they dangled the carrot in front of people but deliveried very little in term of their AAA games.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

I'm still waiting for your reasoning on how layden maths don't add up.

I already laid it out. Your explanation on how his calculation makes sense is still missing. In fact, nobody on this forum has ever tried to show how that's supposed to add up.

 

[MasterCornholio]

While I'm kind of tired of this template, PlayStation does offer more variety of exclusives than this cherry-picked template. They also output games like Dreams, The Last Guardian, Astros Playroom, Returnal, Knack, Gran Turismo, Destruction All-stars, Hotshot Golf, Stray, Sifu, Ratchet and Clank, and even VR titles. They are also coming out with Final Fantasy XVI and (possibly) Dragon Quest XII as exclusives as well that don't necessarily fall into the template. I thought The Last of Us Part 2, God of War, and Ghost of Tsushima were very strong titles despite feeling familiar. No wonder Japan Studios and Dreams don't reach as much success. People want something different but ignore it when it comes.

Another issue with that picture is that all those games are different. I played all of them except for Day Gone and they all play very differently. Even Uncharted and The Last of Us don't feel like the same games to me and those are made by the same developer.

 

[mckmas8808]

I've seen no evidence that MS wants to make streaming the only way to play games. I've also haven't seen anyone advocating against being able to purchase software. Both are optional which is a fantastic value add when on an Xbox or PC platform.

You need to listen to more video game podcasts then. They compare it to today's Netflix, Spotify, and HBO Max services. And question, "does gaming need to be any different than those services?"

 

[Negotiator101]

Since early 2018 MS offers day one launch on GP, no? This shit takes time cause big games are really rare, most of them are just games to feed the service.

Who knows if people will change their mind with the next batch of games.


Anyway, I don't really care how Sony will offer their games, they just need to continue bring their big AAA single players.

That's all any of us want big games from all sides that push this amazing medium forward GP service is fantastic for Xbox but not for PS that's all this boils down to.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

And what was put out by their internal studios in these last 4 years?

If all somebody cared about was day one AAA games they already spent $480 on just Gamepass or or $720 for Ultimate assuming they didn't use some promo.

So far they dangled the carrot in front of people but deliveried very little in term of their AAA games.

Since you are using regular price monthly fees, I cant wait to see your analysis on PS Premium which is $18/mth US and doesnt even include day one Sony first party games.

That's $204/yr or $816 for 4 years.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Another issue with that picture is that all those games are different. I played all of them except for Day Gone and they all play very differently. Even Uncharted and The Last of Us don't feel like the same games to me and those are made by the same developer.

Just started Days Gone this past weekend, and even that plays different. Strategy wise and all. Enjoying it a lot, and glad I waited to play it at 4K/60, highly underrated game, but we know why.

 

[Negotiator101]

Another issue with that picture is that all those games are different. I played all of them except for Day Gone and they all play very differently. Even Uncharted and The Last of Us don't feel like the same games to me and those are made by the same developer.

Last of Us 2 and Uncharted 4 play very similar, you can tell that they are from the same developer, LOU2 is far more refined though.

 

[Aguero9320]

Yeah I mean it has to go one way or the other. Either quality suffers, or prices rise.

I have no issue with the price rising for quality, so we're all good there!

 

[mckmas8808]

Another issue with that picture is that all those games are different. I played all of them except for Day Gone and they all play very differently. Even Uncharted and The Last of Us don't feel like the same games to me and those are made by the same developer.

That picture is why I hate the internet sometimes. :-/

 

[KXVXII9X]

Another issue with that picture is that all those games are different. I played all of them except for Day Gone and they all play very differently. Even Uncharted and The Last of Us don't feel like the same games to me and those are made by the same developer.

Agreed. I was going to write that but thought I'd get dogpiled. Glad I'm not alone in thinking that.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

Let's say Sony spends tons of money on Spider-man 2, then you just go and play it over the cloud for $15 on release? With cloud gaming you wouldn't even have to buy their hardware. Sounds terrible to their business.

The console market for Sony usually taps out each generation at 100 - 150 million units. If they make game available through cloud, the potential market increases to basically anyone who has a stable internet connection. I would guess that's between 2 - 4 billion people and growing.

 

[mckmas8808]

Since you are using regular price monthly fees, I cant wait to see your analysis on PS Premium which is $18/mth US and doesnt even include day one Sony first party games.

That's $204/yr or $816 for 4 years.

This is a lie! PS Premium is literally $119.99 a year. They've shared that on their site already.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Last of Us 2 and Uncharted 4 play very similar, you can tell that they are from the same developer, LOU2 is far more refined though.

They certainly don't feel like clones of each other and the vibe is very different between the two. It's why I like Uncharted a lot more than TLOU.

 

[mckmas8808]

The console market for Sony usually taps out each generation at 100 - 150 million units. If they make game available through cloud, the potential market increases to basically anyone who has a stable internet connection. I would guess that's between 2 - 4 billion people and growing.

But 2 - 4 Billion people do NOT want to play games that Sony and MS are interested in. Why do yall keep falling for this lie?

 

[nikolino840]

I cant remember 8 AAA games MS released in the last 4 years worth $60.

And what about the entire Xbox One gen.? Do you Remember games worth 60$? Does the GP strategy changhed a lot for MS in terms of first party budget?

 

[DarkMage619]

You need to listen to more video game podcasts then. They compare it to today's Netflix, Spotify, and HBO Max services. And question, "does gaming need to be any different than those services?"

Who is asking those questions? Why would MS close revenue sources and limit their audience by going streaming only? The only way Game pass is like Netflix is that it's a subscription. Even streaming isn't available to all their customers.

Going that mode exclusively would kill their console business because you wouldn't need a console to stream. It would also kill their retail model because no software would ever be sold. No serious game fan or business person thinks MS will go streaming only it makes absolutely no sense.

 

[nominedomine]

The console market for Sony usually taps out each generation at 100 - 150 million units. If they make game available through cloud, the potential market increases to basically anyone who has a stable internet connection. I would guess that's between 2 - 4 billion people and growing.

That just shows how you have no idea of what you are talking about. Gamepass doesn't apeal to the vast majority of these people. Reminds me of when people use to say that all Xbox needed was 10% of the Chinese gaming market, I wonder how that went.

Gamepass is availiable on PC, Xbox and xCloud. Why does it matter if the "potential market" is 4 billion people if they dont care about your product?

 

[Hezekiah]

I have no issue with the price rising for quality, so we're all good there!

Well it will, and you're not in denial so that's good!

When it does increase, mainstream gamers will be much more inclined to sub on and off as and when new AAA releases are dropped, so that is another big test for subscription services.

 

[DeepEnigma]

But 2 - 4 Billion people do NOT want to play games that Sony and MS are interested in. Why do yall keep falling for this lie?

Seriously. 2 - 4 billion people might be worried about putting the food on the table in the next 3-5 years or sooner.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

What cases? If you don't mind me asking. I'm honestly curious to see some numbers.

You're right, Microsoft spends billions more than their competition on the development of games and purchase of publishers/studios because its just a neat little hobby they enjoy.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Who is asking those questions? Why would MS close revenue sources and limit their audience by going streaming only? The only way Game pass is like Netflix is that it's a subscription. Even streaming isn't available to all their customers.

Going that mode exclusively would kill their console business because you wouldn't need a console to stream. It would also kill their retail model because no software would ever be sold. No serious game fan or business person thinks MS will go streaming only it makes absolutely no sense.

People just need to listen to what Uncle Phil says. He lays the entire strategy out. Gamepass is only one of several pillars of Xbox.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

Seriously. 2 - 4 billion people might be worried about putting the food on the table in the next 3-5 years or sooner.

The world went through a shitstorm these past 2+ years with COVID and shortages of essentials in all sectors yet Xbox and PlayStation consoles could not keep up with demand. If anything, bad economic times cause people to spend more on things they probably shouldn't. It's human nature.