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[Xamtheking]

I think at this point, if you bought the pre-order... did nothing with any of it.. didn't take them up on the offer of a refund back when the offered it.. and only now.. now you think you should be refunded?

I don't think at this point you are entitled to one.

I get people are frustrated.. but welcome to the world of EA. For every successful EA.. there seems to be 2 in some kind of limbo/waiting.

This is NOT EA
This is PREORDER
The damn thread says that

 

[YianGaruga]

I did not say that; A patch came out then.

The point is: Is a game only complete at the point development stops on it? If not, then we need another metric.

It's difficult, but a game that is still in the Early Access program should probably be considered unfinished and in development, regardless of the content.

Otherwise there really is no hard line that you can draw anymore and that classification is up to the developer.

 

[mclem]

well, considering the dev said that the game isn't finished, I think that would point to the uncompleted checkbox.

I don't think I've ever been *quite* satisfied that any game I've ever worked on was 'finished'. There's always been things I wanted to tweak, to improve. I doubt there's any other dev with any passion for the product they're making who'd say differently, either.

I just posted - in the "Games you played in your teens that you'd recommend today" thread - the game Chaos. A glorious, glorious game, one I regard as one of the finest of all-time. It's a beautiful example of turn-based strategy, brilliantly refined.

And it's unfinished.

 

[Einbroch]

The game is feature incomplete.

Early Access is such a mess as a concept and it's situations like this that turn me off from it completely. I'm never purchasing an Early Access game again.

I bought Starbound and I got my money's worth, but I can understand how someone who has never played the game and seen how slow the updates have been would demand a refund. Refunds should be given to those who pre-ordered, even those that played for 100+ hours in Early Access. There is literally no downside for the developer with the program the way it is now besides maybe some bad PR from a small corner of an already small market.

 

[Dash Kappei]

Unless a game is completely broken a dev is under no obligation to give a refund just because someone doesn't like the game. The game is labeled as beta. Anyone expecting a perfectly smooth experience is just plain dumb.

Next time try reading the OP instead of rushing just to get first post of the thread

 

[Shining Sunshine]

I don't see this any differently than crowdfunding.

No refunds should be entitled unless the game is cancelled.

 

[Telecinision]

What I don't understand was putting the development of an already extremely delayed game on hold to move to a new office. That seems like a pretty nonsensical decision to not wait to do that until they were in between development cycles. I can see why people would have doubts about Chucklefish's judgement and commitment to release the game with the feature set they claimed they were going to make.

 

[mclem]

I bought Starbound and I got my money's worth, but I can understand how someone who has never played the game and seen how slow the updates have been would demand a refund. Refunds should be given to those who pre-ordered, even those that played for 100+ hours in Early Access. There is literally no downside for the developer with the program the way it is now besides maybe some bad PR from a small corner of an already small market.

Can they afford to refund everyone? I'd say that's a pretty big downside.

I don't see this any differently than crowdfunding.

No refunds should be entitled unless the game is cancelled.

I think the argument - in my mind - boils down to whether the game was adequately pitched as a crowdfunded project at the point that this preorder was made.

If it *was* - if it was very clear that these preorders would be folded into the development of the game directly - then I think it's reasonable to deny refunds. Mass co-ordinated refunds at the wrong time could cripple such a project, and being able to be defunded rather defeats the advantages of crowdfunding; I regard that much as implicit in contributing to a crowdfunded endeavour.

If it was not, however, then I think a refund is reasonably justified.

What I don't understand was putting the development of an already extremely delayed game on hold to move to a new office. That seems like a pretty nonsensical decision to not wait to do that until they were in between development cycles. I can see why people would have doubts about Chucklefish's judgement and commitment to release the game with the feature set they claimed they were going to make.

I assume the lease simply expired on the old one. That's not necessarily something you can just ignore and leave for a later day.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

I don't think I've ever been *quite* satisfied that any game I've ever worked on was 'finished'. There's always been things I wanted to tweak, to improve. I doubt there's any other dev with any passion for the product they're making who'd say differently, either.

I just posted - in the "Games you played in your teens that you'd recommend today" thread - the game Chaos. A glorious, glorious game, one I regard as one of the finest of all-time. It's a beautiful example of turn-based strategy, brilliantly refined.

And it's unfinished.

Should I say feature incomplete then? Non-release candidate? They said it was unfinished and that's why it isn't an 1.0 candidate. I think you knew what I was saying.

 

[scurker]

For the people asking about what was promised, and what's missing, here's a blog post from October 2013 giving details about what to expect:
http://playstarbound.com/how-the-beta-is-going-to-work/

Stage 3 is largely about prepping for v1.0, this means finishing up the main quest line and implementing the post beta content. i.e. the Novakids, fossils. By the time stage 3 is complete Starbound should be ready to launch as a finished game.

DO take part in this stage if:

- You want to give feedback on what will become the finished game

DO NOT take part in this stage if:

- You’d rather wait a litttttle bit longer and play the polished final version

There's not a lot there (except for placeholders) for quest progression, and storyline. They're obviously working on Novakids based on a blog post from a few days ago but they have yet to be implemented in the game.

And keep in mind, not everyone wants to play a half finished product. Some people are obviously having fun with Starbound, but that's not everyone. I think the developers have chosen poorly to dig their heels in on this issue and breaks any semblance of trust and is just causing a shit storm of potential bad publicity.

Of course, maybe they just don't care after selling over 1 million copies.

 

[Telecinision]

I assume the lease simply expired on the old one. That's not necessarily something you can just ignore and leave for a later day.

True, but I would still argue that that is poor planning on their part.

 

[mclem]

Should I say feature incomplete then? Non-release candidate? They said it was unfinished and that's why it isn't a 1.0 candidate. I think you knew what I was saying.

I know what you meant, but my point is that there's a continuum of development, and a release is ultimately set by picking one spot on it and saying "that's what we'll call 1.0". I'm sure Gollop would like to have finished the spells and enemies in the incomplete version of Chaos; as far as I'm aware, he was even intending to do so, but his publisher moved for a release behind his back.

A game I've worked on nearly did the same. I was planning to make Sniper Elite multiplayer work between US and EU versions on Xbox, but the EU publisher moved to publish before things were solidified to guarantee communication in that regard. In *that* instance, fortunately, we had the muscle of the US publisher on our side to help bring things back on track, but it's the same principle; what we (as devs) regarded as 'complete' was distinct from what a third party (the publisher) regarded as 'complete'. And so it follows that it raises questions about what exactly a judge would regard as 'complete', because in both cases it's slightly different visions about what you want from the game.

Ultimately, if you're crowdfunding a game, I think there has to be some implicit faith in the developer's vision for it, but the developer's vision should not be regarded as a legally-binding notion of 'complete'; it's still an artistic work on a continuum of development, and so the concept of 'complete' is shrouded in a whole bunch of he said she said.

 

[erragal]

Let me break this down for you very, very simply.

1. I preordered. I've never wanted or used any pre-release software. I've been annoyed that the game has been delayed so many times and that dates have been missed. But, as I said in my first thread, I gave up on caring six months ago. I have never asked for a refund, nor have I ever planned to ask for one.

2. In this thread, I was shocked to see a developer say something which directly and unquestionably indicates that they would refuse a refund request to someone in my position. I asked them for clarification in this thread, but none has been forthcoming. If they do clarify and say that I would be offered a refund, I'd be happy to see that. It would make a lot of sense. If they say nothing, I'd assume that their earlier stated view can be taken at face value.

3. The majority of my posts in this thread have been in discussion with people who think that the developer has no reason to refund me. This means that most of the discussion has nothing to do with whether the developer actually would refund my pre-order (though what they said directly indicates that they would not). Instead, the discussion has centered on a normative question: whether the developer should offer refunds to someone in my situation. These are completely separate issues. As I said multiple times, the question I'm interested in is not what the law requires, nor what any particular developer would/wouldn't actually do, but instead on best practices.

Your situation is not the one that was specifically addressed. You are the only person here that believes a generalized pr response in a forum thread automatically applies to you.

Utilizing that as the basis of your argument is an entitlement complex. You wont seek out an answer/result that could give you conclusive proof. You want to apply a general statement (Probably poorly conceived) as applicable to your specific circumstance.

Like I said: Go email them. Send them your unredeemed steam code you claim to have. Ask for a refund. Anything less than that is an assumption you're making to further a spurious argument.

Best practices has been answered already. The game industry has never given refunds for 'not liking a product'. The game industry has never given refunds for claimed software keys outside of specific circumstances. Back in the ps1 days was the last time you could do full returns on brand new console games; I know because I abused it like crazy for an entire summer before they wised up.

Software is bought 'as is'. Pre orders are refundable until you claim the key. You have zero official data to support your supposition that they arent refunding unused keys. That was not directly addressed in the ill-conceived general statememt by an unknown authority from the developer.

You speal of bad faith...but yet entirely rely on a completely unstated assumption in order to continue your negative supposition. You have been given a path in which to ptove your point but declined.

If you believed in your stated point you would perform a formal refund request and post the email response. What's the worst that could happen?

 

[NH Apache]

For the people asking about what was promised, and what's missing, here's a blog post from October 2013 giving details about what to expect:
http://playstarbound.com/how-the-beta-is-going-to-work/



There's not a lot there (except for placeholders) for quest progression, and storyline. They're obviously working on Novakids based on a blog post from a few days ago but they have yet to be implemented in the game.

And keep in mind, not everyone wants to play a half finished product. Some people are obviously having fun with Starbound, but that's not everyone. I think the developers have chosen poorly to dig their heels in on this issue and breaks any semblance of trust and is just causing a shit storm of potential bad publicity.

Of course, maybe they just don't care after selling over 1 million copies.

Well, the guy who works for Chucklefish in the Starbound thread said specifically that there are people working on the game. It's fairly obvious that they do care.

I've dumped a lot of time into this amazing game. Personally, I don't know what would prevent a person from playing and just to sit and wait, especially since there are no more character resets. Novakids should be out shortly, a stretch goal...

The pre-order was more like crowdfunding, with distinct terms like "stretch goals," used for the Novakids race. To me, the Reddit dude in the OP sounds like the kid in debate club playing the counterargument, just to argue.

 

[TunaMarshmallow]

Your situation is not the one that was specifically addressed. You are the only person here that believes a generalized pr response in a forum thread automatically applies to you.

Utilizing that as the basis of your argument is an entitlement complex. You wont seek out an answer/result that could give you conclusive proof. You want to apply a general statement (Probably poorly conceived) as applicable to your specific circumstance.

Like I said: Go email them. Send them your unredeemed steam code you claim to have. Ask for a refund. Anything less than that is an assumption you're making to further a spurious argument.

Best practices has been answered already. The game industry has never given refunds for 'not liking a product'. The game industry has never given refunds for claimed software keys outside of specific circumstances. Back in the ps1 days was the last time you could do full returns on brand new console games; I know because I abused it like crazy for an entire summer before they wised up.

Software is bought 'as is'. Pre orders are refundable until you claim the key. You have zero official data to support your supposition that they arent refunding unused keys. That was not directly addressed in the ill-conceived general statememt by an unknown authority from the developer.

You speal of bad faith...but yet entirely rely on a completely unstated assumption in order to continue your negative supposition. You have been given a path in which to ptove your point but declined.

If you believed in your stated point you would perform a formal refund request and post the email response. What's the worst that could happen?

Your recalcitrance to common sense is amazing.

If a PR person pops into a thread and makes a blanket claim that directly and unquestionably covers my circumstances, I'm going to believe that they mean what they said. I asked for clarification. None has been forthcoming. That's that. We know they're aware of the thread. If they feel they've spread misinformation, they can correct it. Otherwise, it's just not my issue. As I've said about sixteen times, my interest isn't even in this particular developer or case, it's in best practices.

And, to be clear, what you're saying about best practices in fact seems to conflict with the Starbound dev's statement earlier in this thread. So perhaps we agree!

 

[davepoobond]

It's okay to be anti-consumer as long as you've released a little something for players to waste time on. Never mind about ever having a feature complete game, that doesn't matter, since you're not entitled to that (FYI it's never coming)

Preordering a game that will never have a feature complete version means you are paying for an incomplete game. If the game ever completed you would be entitled to a refund. But you perpetually are not entitled to a refund because it never gets to the point of being complete so you're paying for the "incomplete" product and never the "complete" product.

The complete product could cost 60 dollars for all we know. The 15 that star bound costs right now is the cost of the incomplete version.

 

[Etnos]

30 hours, for a $14 game... goon enough for me. I'm sure I'll be coming back later on. Seems like a bunch of people trying to crucify a developer because of bizarre reasons, another day in the videogame industry.
-
I mean if $15 is such a big deal so that you need to spend time and effort making a outrage for a refund... like maybe reconsider your life priorities, you probably could be using that time to make more money, it would probably be a more productive endevour.

 

[scoobidoo112]

Wow, so we are now at a point where consumers should not have to right to get a refund if they are unhappy with the product? What kind of bullshit is that?

Why does the gaming industry seem to be the only industry that can get away with completely fucking over its customers through incredibly shady business practices and why the fuck do gamers defend it...

 

[LurkerPrime]

Should even released games offer purchasers refunds for their products? Ghostship: Aftermath goes to great lengths to prove that, yes, this should be possible.

Quality shortfalls or broken promises should definitely be valid reasons for refunds.

 

[Enco]

Wow, so we are now at a point where consumers should not have to right to get a refund if they are unhappy with the product? What kind of bullshit is that?

Why does the gaming industry seem to be the only industry that can get away with completely fucking over its customers through incredibly shady business practices and why the fuck do gamers defend it...

What industry allows you to pay for something and request a refund around a year later?

 

[NH Apache]

It's okay to be anti-consumer as long as you've released a little something for players to waste time on. Never mind about ever having a feature complete game, that doesn't matter, since you're not entitled to that (FYI it's never coming)

Tell me more about the future.

Preordering a game that will never have a feature complete version means you are paying for an incomplete game. If the game ever completed you would be entitled to a refund. But you perpetually are not entitled to a refund because it never gets to the point of being complete so you're paying for the "incomplete" product and never the "complete" product.

The complete product could cost 60 dollars for all we know. The 15 that star bound costs right now is the cost of the incomplete version.

Wow, so we are now at a point where consumers should not have to right to get a refund if they are unhappy with the product? What kind of bullshit is that?

Why does the gaming industry seem to be the only industry that can get away with completely fucking over its customers through incredibly shady business practices and why the fuck do gamers defend it...

They offered a refund when the pre-orders were transitioned to early access. See here:

Hey guys, Starbound dev here! I posted in the Starbound thread, but I'm around if you want to know anything.

Just to address the original point, the original estimate for release was 2013, but when it became clear this wasn't going to happen we opened up an early access beta to those who pre-ordered, with the full release included in that price. Understandably we offered refunds at the time to those that weren't happy with this, but it's not something we'll do seven months later.

 

[TunaMarshmallow]

Wow, so we are now at a point where consumers should not have to right to get a refund if they are unhappy with the product? What kind of bullshit is that?

Actually, no. If this thread is to be believed, we're now at the point where a consumer should not receive a refund even if (i) it is after the planned release date, and (ii) the product in question has not been released, and (iii) the consumer in question has never tried any version of the not-yet-released product.

 

[Timeaisis]

Well, considering he pre-ordered it and didn't pay for early access, he's got a right to get his money back

If I went into gamesopt, pre-ordered Destiny, got the beta keys and played for a few hours and then went back and cancelled my pre-orders, they'd still give me a refund, because I haven't got the physical game yet. That's how it works. The transaction hasn't been completed yet.

I get that if you pay for early access it's a different story, but pre-orders are different. You theoretically shouldn't even be charged before the game is done.

The reason Chucklefish isn't refunding pre-orders is because they are using that money to finish up development.

 

[davepoobond]

Tell me more about the future.

Chucklefish's next game will be in a perpetual non-release version for longer than Starbound.

who cares about making a feature complete game anymore

They offered a refund when the pre-orders were transitioned to early access. See here:

what exactly has changed about Starbound's completion status between its initial pre-order and seven months later? It is still incomplete and in pre-order status. It transitioned to "Early Access" at some point, which I don't really care about.

Why is it the consumer's responsibility to make sure he refunds before a certain time period that was NOT explicitly stated?

"By the way guys, if you want a refund on your pre-order, we will not be doing it after May 31, 2013"

THAT is how it works in real life. There is a date where refunds are cut-off. Not "oh, well, its 7 months later, so that means we can't do it anymore. Should have caught us at 6 months and 29 days."

their refund policy is about as arbitrary as 1.0, apparently.

 

[Vlade]

I'm still completely not understanding why any reason need be given to get your preorder money back. This isn't kickstarter. He isn't returning a delivered product. It's a different issue whether early access is a delivery, and we aren't even discussing that.

 

[charsace]

The game is feature incomplete.

Early Access is such a mess as a concept and it's situations like this that turn me off from it completely. I'm never purchasing an Early Access game again.

I bought Starbound and I got my money's worth, but I can understand how someone who has never played the game and seen how slow the updates have been would demand a refund. Refunds should be given to those who pre-ordered, even those that played for 100+ hours in Early Access. There is literally no downside for the developer with the program the way it is now besides maybe some bad PR from a small corner of an already small market.

Early Access isn't a mess. EA is a alpha/beta period. That was the purpose of it when it was conceived and that is still the purpose now. Starbound devs did not mislead this guy or people.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Early Access isn't a mess. EA is a alpha/beta period. That was the purpose of it when it was conceived and that is still the purpose now. Starbound devs did not mislead this guy or people.

It was not called early access when I and others purchased it in April 2013. It was a preorder for a game that included beta access. You're conflating the two when they are not one and the same. Early access removes all consumer rights from the equation, while a preorder is just that, a preorder.

 

[soxinthebox]

What industry allows you to pay for something and request a refund around a year later?

The industry doesn't matter - it's a pre-order. Surely up until release of a pre-ordered product you should be able to get your money back.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

It seems the main source of confusion here is that, before Starbound was on Steam early access, Chucklefish had a large variety of "packages" -- some of them very expensive -- that one could buy. Some of them included a "pre-order" of the game, and it was theoretically going to be feature complete by the end of 2013. Obviously, that did not occur.

They later released an early access version (the "Beta") on Steam. I bought this early access version, and as much as I would like a refund (I was banned from their forums for critizing the censorship of dissenting posts there, and, after almost six months of no stable updates, I am skeptical the game will ever be complete) I do not expect one. However, had I bought the earlier pre-order package from Chucklefish, and not from Steam, I might think I was entitled to one.

So to clear things up, there is the pre-order package that one could once buy from Chucklefish, and then there is the early access Steam version that exists today. I seems reasonable to expect a refund on the former, but not the latter.

Spoiler

Now to be honest, I don't really like Chucklefish. They seem unprofessional and somewhat vindictive, and it would appear that they took most of the money they made off Starbound and used it to consolidate their studio in the United Kingdom as well as become a video game publisher for games such as Witchmarsh, but I have no way to confirm this; it is merely a guess based on timing, and even if it were to prove true, I would not be particularly upset.

 

[RedHotChimiChanga]

It seems the main source of confusion here is that, before Starbound was on Steam early access, Chucklefish had a large variety of "packages" -- some of them very expensive -- that one could buy. Some of them included a "pre-order" of the game, and it was theoretically going to be feature complete by the end of 2013. Obviously, that did not occur.

They later released an early access version (the "Beta") on Steam. I bought this early access version, and as much as I would like a refund (I was banned from their forums for critizing the censorship of dissenting posts there, and, after almost six months of no stable updates, I am skeptical the game will ever be complete) I do not expect one. However, had I bought the earlier pre-order package from Chucklefish, and not from Steam, I might think I was entitled to one.

So to clear things up, there is the pre-order package that one could once buy from Chucklefish, and then there is the early access Steam version that exists today. I seems reasonable to expect a refund on the former, but not the latter.

Spoiler

Now to be honest, I don't really like Chucklefish. They seem unprofessional and somewhat vindictive, and it would appear that they took most of the money they made off Starbound and used it to consolidate their studio in the United Kingdom as well as become a video game publisher for games such as Witchmarsh, but I have no way to confirm this; it is merely a guess based on timing, and even if it were to prove true, I would not be particularly upset.

Eh, it's like Path of Exile. They had super expensive packages that people could buy, and a lot of people did. They had a beta available and playable that was very robust.

I view Starbound as the same. The early release already has a lot of content. We get updates now and then. Most people just paid $5-20 for something that has hundreds of hours of content. There is no doubt that Chucklefish is using the money they have to further improve the game and create more game content.

Now if this was about Minecraft and Mojang, I would say I felt scammed. I paid $20 for that Alpha, and the base Minecraft game is still a bare skeleton and comparable to the Alpha. It's only enjoyable when player created mods are installed, and I definitely did not pay these people to create the mods. Mojang definitely did not use that money to further improve the base Minecraft game.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Still waiting for a reply from Chucklefish via email.

I'm still completely not understanding why any reason need be given to get your preorder money back. This isn't kickstarter. He isn't returning a delivered product. It's a different issue whether early access is a delivery, and we aren't even discussing that.

I'm not understanding as well. When did beta access all of a sudden mean your preorder money for the FULL game is non-refundable? I preordered the full game in April 2013, and I'm still waiting for the full release as promised in the description for which I paid. It is still very much in beta, and I'm honestly sick of waiting. They have not fulfilled the product for which I preordered. The kiting around by Chucklefish is heavily disheartening, especially when they made so much money on the game. This isn't an army of people wanting a refund, just a few who preordered (not Early Access) and are not happy with the situation.

 

[mavs]

Still waiting for a reply from Chucklefish via email.



I'm not understanding as well. When did beta access all of a sudden mean your preorder money for the FULL game is non-refundable? I preordered the full game in April 2013, and I'm still waiting for the full release as promised in the description for which I paid. It is still very much in beta, and I'm honestly sick of waiting. They have not fulfilled the product for which I preordered. The kiting around by Chucklefish is heavily disheartening, especially when they made so much money on the game. This isn't an army of people wanting a refund, just a few who preordered (not Early Access) and are not happy with the situation.

When did games on steam become refundable? When did video games, in any format, become refundable? Disheartening, sad situation, sure I'll agree with that. But it's a little weird that people are surprised to find out that once you hand over your money and receive a video game, that money is fucking gone.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

When did games on steam become refundable? When did video games, in any format, become refundable? Disheartening, sad situation, sure I'll agree with that. But it's a little weird that people are surprised to find out that once you hand over your money and receive a video game, that money is fucking gone.

I received a beta of the game in progress. I want the preorder refunded as the game as described in the preorder has not released. It's been 1 year 3 months.

When did preorders become nonrefundable when the game for which hasn't released? How is this any different than preordering Destiny and being told to fuck-off by Bungie if you weren't happy because the beta wasn't up to snuff a year later and the game still not released?

 

[VandalD]

Still waiting for a reply from Chucklefish via email.

I'm not understanding as well. When did beta access all of a sudden mean your preorder money for the FULL game is non-refundable? I preordered the full game in April 2013, and I'm still waiting for the full release as promised in the description for which I paid. It is still very much in beta, and I'm honestly sick of waiting. They have not fulfilled the product for which I preordered. The kiting around by Chucklefish is heavily disheartening, especially when they made so much money on the game. This isn't an army of people wanting a refund, just a few who preordered (not Early Access) and are not happy with the situation.

Just wondering. Were you aware that the beta released in December? Did you find out before or after it went out on Steam early access? I also ordered in April, or whenever it first went up, and it became perfectly clear to me that they weren't going to make 2013 for release, and they just barely put the beta out in 2013. I'm just thinking that if I were more like you, I would've used the indication that they were nowhere near a proper 2013 release date to request a refund before they even gave out any codes. Even when the preorders went up, they were a bit known for missing dates because they underestimated development time. I'm pretty sure they once gave a release year of 2012 also.

So I'm not even trying to argue whether you're entitled to a refund right now. I'm just curious why you didn't get one in the past. Were you still in the mindset of supporting development, even though you preordered in April and only the beta came out in December?

 

[mavs]

I received a beta of the game in progress. I want the preorder refunded as the game as described in the preorder has not released. It's been 1 year 3 months.

When did preorders become nonrefundable when the game for which hasn't released?

When you preorder on steam, or any digital service of final redemption, so far as I know. When you redeem the preorder bonuses, certainly. Like I said, I agree that the developer should make their upset customers whole. What is bewildering is that people are confused by the situation, and attempt to appeal to the norms of the video game industry. So far as I can tell, the norm is to take your money and not give it back.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Here's one of the things I'm talking about. If you read Molly's post.

http://i.imgur.com/oCfkTC1.png

"We’ll always happily refund them, but we make a point to clear up, as Tiy did in that Reddit post, that they pre-ordered the game with the knowledge that it would come out this year, not in two weeks or two months or tomorrow or whenever—just 2013."

Just wondering. Were you aware that the beta released in December? Did you find out before or after it went out on Steam early access? I also ordered in April, or whenever it first went up, and it became perfectly clear to me that they weren't going to make 2013 for release, and they just barely put the beta out in 2013. I'm just thinking that if I were more like you, I would've used the indication that they were nowhere near a proper 2013 release date to request a refund before they even gave out any codes. Even when the preorders went up, they were a bit known for missing dates because they underestimated development time. I'm pretty sure they once gave a release year of 2012 also.

So I'm not even trying to argue whether you're entitled to a refund right now. I'm just curious why you didn't get one in the past. Were you still in the mindset of supporting development, even though you preordered in April and only the beta came out in December?

No I appreciate the questions. As shown in the OP, this is what I saw: http://imgur.com/YGIhmHy. I was barely alright with the delays after delays, and the latest one has finally made me irritated beyond accepting a simple "deal with it" by Chucklefish. "We feel the game could be released as is and be called 1.0" is nonsense. The reason they won't is because it is unfinished and they would receive a ton of backlash. It is still definitely a beta. The preorder I made has not been fulfilled, plain and simple.

And now the Chucklefish rep comes in and tells me I missed some arbitrary cutoff at the end of 2013 for a refund. THAT I definitely don't understand either. I guess I deserve a refund less than others because I've been more patient than others? I don't know.

When you preorder on steam, or any digital service of final redemption, so far as I know. When you redeem the preorder bonuses, certainly. Like I said, I agree that the developer should make their upset customers whole. What is bewildering is that people are confused by the situation, and attempt to appeal to the norms of the video game industry. So far as I can tell, the norm is to take your money and not give it back.

I activated a beta. I paid for the full game. Whatever changes they made after that transaction is irrelevant to me. I understand Early Access and the lack of rights associated with it completely. As stated by the rep, refunds are possible and have been made, I just don't deserve one 7 months later just because.

PS I can't believe I even misspelled "cuttlefish" in the title :/. I just watched the ocean BBC Life documentary a few days ago and got switch up I guess. Cuddlefish sounds cute though.

 

[Morokh]

When you preorder on steam, or any digital service of final redemption, so far as I know. When you redeem the preorder bonuses, certainly. Like I said, I agree that the developer should make their upset customers whole. What is bewildering is that people are confused by the situation, and attempt to appeal to the norms of the video game industry. So far as I can tell, the norm is to take your money and not give it back.

Thing is he did not pre-order on Steam in the first place, none of us who have participated in the Kickstarter/pre-order campain have.

This pre-order became a steam early acess key later when they decided (after consulting with the fans) that it would be easier for everyone.

But now it seems in terms of possible refunds they are limited (supposedly) because of that.

Right time to bail out and request a refund would have been when they announced early access for the Beta, now that all is said and done, i'm not even sure they could if they wanted to.

Now if this was about Minecraft and Mojang, I would say I felt scammed. I paid $20 for that Alpha, and the base Minecraft game is still a bare skeleton and comparable to the Alpha. It's only enjoyable when player created mods are installed, and I definitely did not pay these people to create the mods. Mojang definitely did not use that money to further improve the base Minecraft game.

I'm still trying to figure out how someone can make a perfectly reasonable post and then say that, you like mods alright, but saying the game hasn't vastly changed since Alpha that's just crazy talk

 

[mavs]

I activated a beta. I paid for the full game. Whatever changes they made after that transaction is irrelevant to me. I understand Early Access and the lack of rights associated with it completely. As stated by the rep, refunds are possible and have been made, I just don't deserve one 7 months later just because.

Thing is he did not pre-order on Steam in the first place, none of us who have participated in the Kickstarter/pre-order campain have.

This pre-order became a steam early acess key later when they decided (after consulting with the fans) that it would be easier for everyone.

But now it seems in terms of possible refunds they are limited (supposedly) because of that.

Right time to bail out and request a refund would have been when they announced early access for the Beta, now that all is said and done, i'm not even sure they could if they wanted to.

I understand the circumstances of the preorder; I bought the game through their site the day before the beta went up. I definitely see why people would want a refund. I don't see why people would expect a refund. Put another way: where are people getting refunds for video game products? Well, besides Chucklefish I guess.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

I understand the circumstances of the preorder; I bought the game through their site the day before the beta went up. I definitely see why people would want a refund. I don't see why people would expect a refund. Put another way: where are people getting refunds for video game products? Well, besides Chucklefish I guess.

If I preorder a game and receive beta access later, and the full game ends up being delayed again and again, I would be entitled to get my preorder money back (even if the game wasn't delayed, so long as it hadn't released yet). Whether I had played the beta for 10 minutes or 45 hours, it's irrelevant. You mention a product sure, but I haven't received the product that I preordered yet.

 

[mavs]

If I preorder a game and receive beta access later, and the full game ends up being delayed again and again, I would be entitled to get my preorder money back (even if the game wasn't delayed, so long as it hadn't released yet). Whether I had played the beta for 10 minutes or 45 hours, it's irrelevant. You mention a product sure, but I haven't received the product that I preordered yet.

Yeah, your reasoning is sound. I only ask where you can receive the service you are entitled to, aside from Chucklefish 7 months ago.

 

[VandalD]

No I appreciate the questions. As shown in the OP, this is what I saw: http://imgur.com/YGIhmHy. I was barely alright with the delays after delays, and the latest one has finally made me irritated beyond accepting a simple "deal with it" by Chucklefish. "We feel the game could be released as is and be called 1.0" is nonsense. The reason they won't is because it is unfinished and they would receive a ton of backlash. It is still definitely a beta. The preorder I made has not been fulfilled, plain and simple.

And now the Chucklefish rep comes in and tells me I missed some arbitrary cutoff at the end of 2013 for a refund. THAT I definitely don't understand either. I guess I deserve a refund less than others because I've been more patient than others? I don't know.

I activated a beta. I paid for the full game. Whatever changes they made after that transaction is irrelevant to me. I understand Early Access and the lack of rights associated with it completely. As stated by the rep, refunds are possible and have been made, I just don't deserve one 7 months later just because.

Thanks for the reply. I agree with you for the most part, though I suppose I just don't share your overall perspective. I don't feel like I got what I paid for either. Not yet. And the current game isn't at all the Starbound 1.0 I was expecting when I gave them money. Still, I've already enjoyed the beta enough for what I've paid, so the thought of getting a refund hadn't crossed me.

The only reason I don't completely agree with where you're coming from is that it was exceedingly obvious to me before codes came out that the game wouldn't be what it set out to be for a very long time. That's not a reason for them to deny a refund, however. For me, it would just be a lesson in being smarter with my money. Maybe that makes me a bad consumer.

 

[yatesl]

Put another way: where are people getting refunds for video game products? Well, besides Chucklefish I guess.

Any online or physical store will refund a preorder. Steam will refund a preorder. EA will even give you a refund AFTER release date, or after you've played it for a bit.

As others have said, be paid for a preorder. The Destiny beta is incredibly appropriate.

 

[MaxiLive]

I think if you play the game for 5 minutes then your - pre-order effectively because used aka bought.

So then you go to the point of refunding a used game which is always tricky as you have already experienced the game. That said what you signed up into buying isn't what they have provided so therefore a refund is acceptable.

It is all rather messy.

From a personal standpoint I don't think this should be refunded as it definitely isn't vapour ware even from the beta. Plus from the early pre-orders they were advertised and aimed at supporting the development primarily with the rewards secondary to that.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

This goes with what I'm trying to show. Tiy(developer) is now saying (here):

"This touches on the point I was trying to make. What are those promised features? So the stretch goals were novakids, pets and fossils. All things that are nice but likely won't massively change the game. And you can definitely make a good argument for having a right to those. Outside of that, yes we discussed our plans and our ideas for the game openly, but certainly nothing else was 'promised'."

As if the entire website describing what people were preodering didn't exist. I didn't kickstart Starbound, I preordered it. That reddit thread I linked at the top of this post is full of people putting it into even clearer words. And people are being banned and threads are being deleted/censored on the Starbound subreddit because of the small dissent.

It's the damage control towards a potential few $15 preorder refunds, regarding a game that made 20 million dollars in revenue, that baffles me even more. And yet still, the game isn't even near being out of beta and matching the description of what I preordered. It's complete bollocks. I accept that many people are happy with the beta and more power to them and Chucklefish for making them happy, but nonetheless. Preorder =/= Early Access.

 

[RionaaM]

I think if you play the game for 5 minutes then your - pre-order effectively because used aka bought.

So then you go to the point of refunding a used game which is always tricky as you have already experienced the game. That said what you signed up into buying isn't what they have provided so therefore a refund is acceptable.

It is all rather messy.

From a personal standpoint I don't think this should be refunded as it definitely isn't vapour ware even from the beta. Plus from the early pre-orders they were advertised and aimed at supporting the development primarily with the rewards secondary to that.

It's not a used game, in any case it's an used beta. The game isn't out, and nobody knows when it will. People paid for a complete game, the beta was just a bonus in the meantime. They still haven't been able to get their hands on that complete game they purchased.

That, for me, is as strong a reason to give refunds as any. Stronger, even, because the OP mentions the game was bought before it became Early Access on Steam.

 

[Dr.Acula]

I guess if you preordered it and never installed the early access version, you should be able to get your money back.

I guess it depends on the policy of the storefront you bought the preorder from, and the language of the EULA on the early access.

Does the EULA say if you install the early access version using the key provided with your pre-order that you accept a new release date that's further off in the future?

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Just wanted to post an update:

Humble Bundle (support) were more than willing to give me a refund. I will never be purchasing another Chucklefish game, developed or published, again. They never responded to any of my emails and continue to censor their forums from complaints. They are unprofessional and seem amateur.

I urge anyone here who is as unhappy with the broken promises and lies regarding Starbound as I was, to email Humble support. They actually seem to care about retaining customers, unlike Chucklefish. If you went through Early Access, you may be out of luck, but if you preordered it early off their site via Humble, you are in the clear for a refund.