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The Division: Sponge or not to Sponge

Lets clear this up.

Great write up by this user on the clear Rpg and sponginess elements of TMTD.

Massive Entertainment: "We were super up-front that it was a deep RPG"

Let's start with 2013.

"We're focusing a lot on the RPG aspects of the game since we are very much an RPG, so acquiring loot and gearing up your character is going to be a very big part of the game."

2013


"Our goal with Tom Clancy's The Division is nothing short of completely changing the way people play online RPGs," said Fredrik Rundqvist, executive producer, Ubisoft.

2013


At Ubisoft’s E3 2013 Media Briefing we unveiled the latest game in the Tom Clancy franchise: The Division, an online open-world action-RPG set in a very troubled version of New York.

2014

“The biggest thing is it’s a Tom Clancy RPG,” says Rodrigo Cortes, senior brand art director for The Division. “It’s mixing realistic, tactical, possible scenarios with online play and RPG mechanics.”

Cortes agrees that more games are throwing RPG elements into the mix, but points out that The Division started out as an RPG from the ground on up.

“You’re starting to see similar mixing of genres in other games. Before a game was either a shooter, or a third-person game, or a driving game. But now more and more there’s a blend of genres into a bigger game. It can make the game hard to define – it has shooter elements, RPG mechanics, it’s cover-based, online and a seamless open-world.

“It has all of that, yes. But we took it to heart. It’s a proper RPG.”

It’s refreshing to hear a developer proudly admit what a game is, rather than float around the subject throwing in marketing phrases (“shared-world shooter” – urgh) and talk of the “experience”. It’s an RPG, but instead of swords and shields it’s loaded with grenades and sniper rifles. There is character levelling and upgrading for weapons, gear, skills and other stats.

There’s few, if any, role-playing games set in a modern war setting. It’s a genre that’s obsessed with fantasy and sci-fi. But what initially seems an odd choice for a brand famously associated with cold war thrillers and future tech espionage, may actually turn out to be the most refreshing take on the Clancy brand in years.

“It was our biggest challenge from the very beginning,” admits Cortes. “We weren’t sure if it was even possible but after a couple of years to get things running it became the game’s strength.

“There’s nothing like it out there so we can do things surprisingly well that nobody has done before. We don’t have dragons or weird spell effects, we have technology and we have weaponry.”

What we take from Tom Clancy... same article

“Tom Clancy is what keeps us sane,” says Cortes. “It’s like a compass for us. Designing the skills, the enemies and the technology – it’s all based on the concept of realism. The concept of the virus and the collapse of society, but relevant to this generation. So before it was about terrorism or war but the new fear now is how easily society can collapse when there is no electricity, of the fear of something like SARS or ebola. That’s what we take from Clancy.”

2014

For us, one of the biggest challenges is figuring out how to tell people how much of an RPG it is. It has shooting, and is shooter-like. If you look at it, that’s the whole point because we want it to be very immersive. But it’s not a shooter with some RPG stats tacked on. It’s actually a proper RPG from the very beginning. There’s deep progression when it comes to loot, gear and levels and you’ll be able to customise every skill, do exactly what you want and choose roles. So, that’s probably the biggest communication challenge. We want to make clear to everyone that it’s an RPG.

RPG MANTRA SINCE 2013

So that’s the mantra, but what about the details? As mentioned, Cortes and his team are adamant they won’t give us too many pieces of the puzzle in case we piece them together wrongly and end up hoping for something beyond what’s being promised. What he will offer, however, is a tantalising glimpse into the game’s class or archetype system, which sounds like it could be a refreshing mix between the traditional nod towards damage-absorbing, damage-dealing and healing classes we see in MMOs and RPGs and the loadouts found in shooters. The real draw on this front though is the flexibility Ubi is also adding, however.

TOM CLANCY'S THE DIVISION / 24 OCT 2014

"For us, one of the biggest challenges is figuring out how to tell people how much of an RPG it is." BY LUKE KARMALI It's safe to say from the moment it was announced back at E3 2013, interest in Ubisoft's upcoming MMO shooter The Division has been incredibly high. Recently, however, we’ve been coaxed into focusing on other titles thanks to a delay and lack of new information, which has also caused an air of mystery to begin to surround the project.

The weight of expectation is more than sufficient to crush some of the past few years’ most-anticipated titles long before they’ve launched. It’s precisely for this reason art director Rodrigo Cortes and the rest of the team at Ubi Massive are content to play the long game. Determined to learn from the lessons of the past, there’s no plan to reveal anything before it’s ready and even then, he tells me when we sit down to talk, it won’t be done by press release. The hope is for potential previewers to have a full three days with the game so they can understand its intricacies before going away and writing about it, hopefully enabling the ensuing write-ups to contain the required nuance.

Exploring The Division's Awesome RPG Elements - E3 2014

"We want to show gamers the game they will end up playing. We don’t want to sell a fantasy," Cortes says. "We’ve been persistent with our messaging about high targets and benchmarks, and we want to deliver that. Then it’s about making sure people get the game we’re promising so they don’t think it’s something else."

“ It’s not a shooter with some RPG stats tacked on. It’s actually a proper RPG from the very beginning.

With this in mind, Cortes wants to make it clear from the off we should expect a title that owes more to its RPG heritage than anything else. While game play does indeed take the form of third-player cover-based shooting, the actual wider “point” of the game is all about that genre-defining progression of leveling up, hunting the best loot, and using all you find to scale even greater heights.

"For us, one of the biggest challenges is figuring out how to tell people how much of an RPG it is," Cortes explains. “It has shooting, and is shooter-like. If you look at it, that’s the whole point because we want it to be very immersive. But it’s not a shooter with some RPG stats tacked on. It’s actually a proper RPG from the very beginning. There’s deep progression when it comes to loot, gear and levels and you’ll be able to customize every skill, do exactly what you want and choose roles. So, that’s probably the biggest communication challenge. We want to make clear to everyone that it’s an RPG."

So that’s the mantra, but what about the details? As mentioned, Cortes and his team are adamant they won’t give us too many pieces of the puzzle in case we piece them together wrongly and end up hoping for something beyond what’s being promised. What he will offer, however, is a tantalizing glimpse into the game’s class or archetype system, which sounds like it could be a refreshing mix between the traditional nod towards damage-absorbing, damage-dealing and healing classes we see in MMOs and RPGs and the loadouts found in shooters. The real draw on this front though is the flexibility Ubi is also adding, however.

Cortes gives an example of you starting down the path of a healer but then wanting to play with three friends of a similar class, so you can quickly switch to something "more short range or assault or closer to the action. You can switch between offensive, defensive and support skills on the fly."

2016


Magnus Jansen
, creative director at Ubisoft Massive, couldn't hide his frown when I suggested that The Division is an online RPG masquerading as a blockbuster shooter.

It was, I think, the implication that such an endeavor was perhaps deceitful, that wound his gears. "From the very moment we announced the game, we were super up-front that it was a deep RPG," he replied.

"We're not hiding the cat's medicine in its food." http://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-division-interview-were-not-holding-anything-b/1100-6433828/

***** what have we learned? *****

The Division is an RPG. .


So It was going to be like this from the beginning and nothing has really changed from that core concept. Yet for some reason people keep miss this fact, almost by notion alone that its a problem somehow. Now does there need to be some balance passes and tweaks to smooth out gameplay? for sure like anything else in the genre but in due time i'm sure. Because at least they know about that fact as spoken about on their twitch doing the beta period.
 

Soulflarz

Banned
Im confused

I assumed this thread was about bullet sponge or not, such as "it takes a lot of shots to kill someone" vs realism.

Whats this thread about?
 
wtf that title

don-t-hate-appreciate-o.gif
 

Mediking

Member
I would totally jump for it if it wasn't always online. Gameplay videos look so hype to me and I like the RPG elements I've seen in gameplay videos.
 

Starviper

Member
Games can be pretty AND fun too. I enjoy Counter Strike and Siege but I like games where there's more to it than 1-shot kills
 

Mozendo

Member
I didn't find the game to be that "spongey", only on the hard mode of the hospital mission, aside from that the enemies went down quickly with the guns I found even in the dark zone.
 

GorillaJu

Member
So is it like Destiny with mostly enemies that go down in one or two shots punctuated with spongy douchebags who make you hate life?
 

Sterba

Member
So is it like Destiny with mostly enemies that go down in one or two shots punctuated with spongy douchebags who make you hate life?

Pretty much. But I think the fact that it's Humans that you're fighting make it feel, off. Like you expect a headshot to end a fight, but it doesn't. Destiny is at least against non-humans, so it makes sense, and doesn't feel wrong.


I myself don't mind it. I enjoy the core gameplay and idea, and enjoyed the beta. I'm looking forward to the game, either way.
 

diablos991

Can’t stump the diablos
People complaining about the sponge don't really think to how a RPG based shooter would even work without the large HP pool.
There would be no point in skills, gear, and levels if there wasn't a decent amount of HP to comb through.

These people want the game to be something it isn't and they will cry because they misunderstood or didn't pay attention to any of the media leading up to release.

I can't wait for the game and am excited for release! Gold edition pre-ordered after having that much fun in the beta.
 

Gator86

Member
People complaining about the sponge don't really think to how a RPG based shooter would even work without the large HP pool.
There would be no point in skills, gear, and levels if there wasn't a decent amount of HP to comb through.

These people want the game to be something it isn't and they will cry because they misunderstood or didn't pay attention to any of the media leading up to release.


I can't wait for the game and am excited for release! Gold edition pre-ordered after having that much fun in the beta.

Yup, not every fucking game needs to be some insta-death COD style clusterfuck. People call any game where you have to shoot someone more than once bullet-spongey these days. I mean, there's legitimate garbage, like Destiny 1.0 where every boss fight is a miserable slog, but that's rarely the case in games people complain about.
 

GHG

Gold Member
The game has a clear HP system. I don't understand where this "bullet sponge" rubbish comes from. It's an RPG.

Do people complain about fallout in the same way?
 
I think it's just something about games with guns. If I shoot you in the head I want you dead, like yesterday. Seeing numbers fly off as you shoot the head may make you think they are sponges. I understand they're not but when I shoot the dude in the head I want him dead, but whatever.
 
It breaks the immersion for the world they are trying to sell. If the characters wore some kind of full body armor ala Destiny/Halo then the bullet sponge effect could fit but seeing a guy wearing a beanie take several rounds to the skull and not die completely ruins the immersion and for me, ruins the experience.
 

Grimsen

Member
If I were shooting monsters, it wouldn't break the immersion so much.

I mean, hard mode is just ridiculous.
 

-MD-

Member
People are complaining that it takes too long to kill someone? The longer TTK shocked me and is like the #1 reason I want to try this game right now.
 
For me, the problem with the bullet sponges in this game is that they KNOW they're bullet sponges, so the elite enemies would often walk up to you with guns blazing and zero sense of self preservation.
 

Gator86

Member
Why is this ever only an issue with shooters? Nobody ever complains it takes more than 2 swings to kill a bandit with a sword.

CoD, I'd say. People have grown up with that as opposed to old arena style shooters. There hasn't been an equivalent game to take other genres by storm to such an effect.
 

kyser73

Member
A head shot to an unarmoured head should result in a kill irrespective of the genre.

As for sword-sponge - well yeah, actually. If I swing a sword at neck level and it connects at the very least I expect to see a good spray, any deeper & I want a head swinging or rolling off...from behind I'd expect to see the body crumple as the spinal cord is severed.

Don't care about spell cast damage because - hey - they're not real.

Well designed combat in an RPG would allow for both of these things, while making the circumstances they are possible during combat fairly minimal.
 
The beta was fine for me, the boss in the MSG and the big cleaner enemy with flamethrower were a little spongy but is not a problem for me, but I have to wonder about the hardest enemies in the game, I hope they don't overdo the armor for this kind of enemies.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
A head shot to an unarmoured head should result in a kill irrespective of the genre.

As for sword-sponge - well yeah, actually. If I swing a sword at neck level and it connects at the very least I expect to see a good spray, any deeper & I want a head swinging or rolling off...from behind I'd expect to see the body crumple as the spinal cord is severed.

Don't care about spell cast damage because - hey - they're not real.

Well designed combat in an RPG would allow for both of these things, while making the circumstances they are possible during combat fairly minimal.

I can agree with this.

Borderlands series is a FPS, RPG. It has monsters and bandits. Headshots to regular monsters result in an instant kill majority of the time.. Bandits always IIRC.

Then the series has shields and color coded shield types. Yellow is basically armor and acid takes it down quicker. Blue is regular shield and electricity tales it down quick.
 

UraMallas

Member
I actually didn't know it was a proper RPG and this makes me possibly a day one buyer. Thanks for the heads up, OP.
 

caleb1915

Member
For me, the problem with the bullet sponges in this game is that they KNOW they're bullet sponges, so the elite enemies would often walk up to you with guns blazing and zero sense of self preservation.

I only saw that with certain enemies, like the flamethrower guys who had to be up close to reach you.

Others were running behind cover, and popping up periodically like every other shooter ever made. And not even maxed out in the beta you were clearing most groups by yourself within a minute or two. Even less so if you were in a group.
 
I've enjoyed what I played of the beta.

On its own he basic gameplay loop was satisfying.
On its own the setting and aesthetic were great.

Problem for me was mixing them, it's just such dissonance.
Not only that but the gameplay which calls for silly loot that does weird shit is wasted on a pseudo realistic setting that severely limits what kind of loot can be made available to the player.

It's a good game, but with a different setting that allowed for silliness it would be better.
 
If the game had realistic bullet damage there would be no point in levelling up and finding better gear, which is what the game is about. It's an action RPG with guns, not a shooter.
 
The game has a clear HP system. I don't understand where this "bullet sponge" rubbish comes from. It's an RPG.

Do people complain about fallout in the same way?

Hyperbole yet again if I'm honest. The enemies aren't don't even take that long to kill. You'd think they did the way some people on this forum are acting.
 

Bruno

Member
It doesn't change the fact the it is just fundamentally unsatisfying to shoot someone in the head and not have them die.

I feel the same way about casting a fireball spell on someone - why don't they just burn to death?

These games have it all wrong man.
 
I only saw that with certain enemies, like the flamethrower guys who had to be up close to reach you.

Others were running behind cover, and popping up periodically like every other shooter ever made. And not even maxed out in the beta you were clearing most groups by yourself within a minute or two. Even less so if you were in a group.

I ran into an invincibility bug in the DZ, and trust me - the elite uzi thugs in the department store simply did not give a fuck that I had the yellow vendor shotgun. It's actually how I discovered I had the invicibility bug lol.
 
People are so conditioned to equate guns in games to fast ttk that when something tries to do something different, it's not always well received.

In this case, there's a disconnect between the near future setting, the level of and attention to detail (seriously, the agents have the same trigger discipline I do when I'm at the range!), and the fact this this a real RPG with real stats AND real skill trees.

It was likely assumed that this was going to be another Destiny, headshoot and loot. The bullet sponge enemies in Destiny earned that name and were such a headache because 95% of the time you're just one hitting enemies with a scout rifle and then suddenly there's this yellow thing that you have headshot for like 10 minutes. That was one of those 'what's this doing in my shooter?' moments.

The Division is an RPG, and those health bars that go down maybe a bit quicker based on your stats, which gloriously dictate your damage output, are more than welcome in my eyes.

Sponge away.
 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
To those complaining about the absence of headshot instant kills: Everything doesn't need to be the same.

This game isn't an FPS. It's not even first person! Better to compare it to other genres if shooters bring too much baggage.

As long as the rules are consistent, it doesn't matter. Instant kills are not how the game was designed (as far as we know at this point). I imagine that headshots will do more damage but even if they don't, that's just how the game works.

Games are too focus grouped and samey as is without people wanting games of different genres to be the same.

Celebrate the differences!
 
For a game with "Tom Clancy's" title, set in a "reallistic near future", the fact that a guy with a headscarf takes a full clip in the head and survives is utter nonsense.

It breaks immersion and it's simply not fun.
The game's a 3rd person cover shooter RPG.
You should die pretty fast if you break cover and take a SHOT IN YOUR UNPROTECTED HEAD. >(

I really hope they sort out this for launch.
:/
 
I feel the same way about casting a fireball spell on someone - why don't they just burn to death?

These games have it all wrong man.
honestly if in a game like Skyrim you could easily set some armourless villager on fire that easy I might actually play a magic character. until then a stealth archer where it takes skill to sneak, aim, account for drift, and where I can retrieve a single arrow from the enemied skull after a succesful shot is much more satisfying for me personally.

if you want a shooter RPG then why not keep shooting enjoyable and be creative about how leveling works instead- for a few examples... make damage realistic but allow armour to protect more and more, for enemies AND yourself too. maybe your first rifle would have a sight that always drifts to the left which would make it hard to aim but wouldn't stop you from accounting for it with a well aimed shot right between the gap in some bulletproof vest. Then when you earn a rifle with a straight scope you would actually appreciate it. Just never cheat actual skill.

It's not that difficult to think of this stuff but you'd need to shift expectations.
 
Because none of the footage until recently has shown just how spongey the enemies can be.

THATS why you're seeing these reactions. If gameplay footage like we've seen lately was shown in the reveal expectations would be different now.

Look back to that initial reveal video. Enemies only take a few bullets to get dropped. They don't drop instantly because most of the shots that hit them are glancing ones, or through cover, so it takes a few of those glancing bursts to do the damage. The elite at the end of the reveal also gets taken out in a flat second. Those enemies could have come from any non-RPG Clancy game and would not have been out of place, even with the damage numbers flying off of them.

Now compare that to gameplay videos pre-beta and from the beta, and you'll notice that even your average hoodie enemy shrugs of more damage than that elite.

In short: Stating the game was going to be an RPG alone doesn't describe the sponginess of enemies. Actual gameplay footage does.
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
For a game with "Tom Clancy's" title, set in a "reallistic near future", the fact that a guy with a headscarf takes a full clip in the head and survives is utter nonsense.

It breaks immersion and it's simply not fun.
The game's a 3rd person cover shooter RPG.
You should die pretty fast if you break cover and take a SHOT IN YOUR UNPROTECTED HEAD. >(

I really hope they sort out this for launch.
:/



Just because it has Tom Clancy on the cover doesn't mean they can't make an RPG in he Clancy Universe.


It's just a different type of game. It's not a shooter. It's an RPG, set in near future.



Many people love the idea of playing a game that is an RPG, but don't want to do so in some sci fi or fantasy setting.

This is a perfect match for those people.
 
Just because it has Tom Clancy on the cover doesn't mean they can't make an RPG in he Clancy Universe.


It's just a different type of game. It's not a shooter. It's an RPG, set in near future.



Many people love the idea of playing a game that is an RPG, but don't want to do so in some sci fi or fantasy setting.

This is a perfect match for those people.
*shrug*

I'm kinda puzzled at the "Tom Clancy's" prefix anyway. Maybe I'm old, but it usually meant a certain degree of realism and "rooted in reality".
I personally loved the beta, and will get the game near launch, but I was really bothered by the sponginess. :/
Again, hope they sort it out somehow.
 
Just because it has Tom Clancy on the cover doesn't mean they can't make an RPG in he Clancy Universe.
And you can also make an RPG that better aligns with the Tom Clancy universe than we're seeing here. The fact that its an RPG doesn't lock it exactly into the systems in place with The Division. A system that seems at odds with the grounded world as much as its at odds with other Clancy games.

If damage and health wasn't scaled to level you could avoid a lot of the disconnect, and you could still have loot variety. Am only offering that in the way of explanation, I have no expectation that The Division is going to change the kind of game it is.
 
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