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The Division: Sponge or not to Sponge

The fact that people are apparently confused as all hell, really solidifies the fact that Massive/Ubi really do have something unique and special here. Its a refreshing change to see weapon/equipment stats go beyond recoil patterns and how light your gear is, and have it have deeper meaning/stats that affect damage buffs, critical hit bonuses, aggro resistance,ect. Im ready for something new in this genre, and Im hoping that Massive can pull it off and satisfy. The Division is a RPG..If you're not a fan of a RPG in the clancy universe, lets hopefully ghost recon wildlands isn't too far off for you..
 

Greddleok

Member
Are people really arguing over what genre it is? What modern game isn't a mash of 2-5 genres now anyway? Such a waste of time arguing over a classification, it is what it is.
 
Are people really arguing over what genre it is? What modern game isn't a mash of 2-5 genres now anyway? Such a waste of time arguing over a classification, it is what it is.

It's not that simple. While the genre might seem like a seemingly unimportant designation, it can drastically change the perception and expectations for a game. For instance if we simply went based on what a game's gameplay "looked" like, Portal, Metroid Prime, and Counterstrike, however because they're all actually different genres they can all play completely different from one another without people feeling the need to compare them
 
You mean the beta that restricted almost every RPG element in the game? Seems like a reasonable conclusion.

So what you're saying is you didn't play the beta?

Yeah, the part where you make your own character, level up and pick new skills and hunt for better gear is soooo Gears.

Can't believe I didn't see the resemblance earlier.

Either you didn't play it at all or your judgment is completely awful.

I'm surprised people are seeing it this way. What do you guys think makes it an RPG (and not a shooter with RPG-elements)?

I mean it's only a beta and stuff can definitely change, but it's the only playable (non-NDA) material we got so I don't see any issue discussing it.
 

DTU

Banned
I'm surprised people are seeing it this way. What do you guys think makes it an RPG (and not a shooter with RPG-elements)?

I mean it's only a beta and stuff can definitely change, but it's the only playable (non-NDA) material we got so I don't see any issue discussing it.

  • A developed story and setting, separated into quests (missions)
  • Player controls one or more characters through this story
  • Combat/actions are derived from character's attributes and skills
  • Character receives experience and levels up by completing quests, defeating enemies
  • Emphasis on world exploration and interaction
  • Characters party up to complete quests
  • Emphasis on loot and inventory system
  • Character abilities, statistics, and combat heavily influenced by items
  • Persistent monsters (thugs) that inhabit game world
  • Character, abilities, inventory, etc., managed by windowed UI
  • Character and enemies have lifebars, ability cooldowns
These aren't tacked-on features, second to the gunplay. These are core characteristics.

It's like complaining that Sephiroth doesn't die by a single sword slash--let alone a single Omnislash. It's not realistic, but combat in RPGs never is.
 

Wonderfalls

Neo Member
So It was going to be like this from the beginning and nothing has really changed from that core concept. Yet for some reason people keep miss this fact, almost by notion alone that its a problem somehow.

Possibly because most people don't read every interview or piece of pre-release media. The first I knew it was an RPG was a couple of weeks before the beta.
 
Possibly because most people don't read every interview or piece of pre-release media. The first I knew it was an RPG was a couple of weeks before the beta.

They should be reading that stuff otherwise whats the point. You know? especially if you are confused about what the game is or was. An don't go in with expectations that it's something else. Shoot a few people are buying it now because of that reason alone with finding out that its a rpg.
 
Really? Even from the first footage it looks RPG like to me.

Exactly, massive has never said it was a realistic shooter and as i linked in the OP. They have been consistent with the fact that The Division is a RPG. Its evident in the first footage we were amazed by. Its werid to me that people thought that this was a regular TPS. There were clear elements of RPG in the Brooklyn gameplay, from buffs to debuffs to dmg numbers...etc and more importantly skills.
 

KKRT00

Member
No, it only means that Ubisoft did a terrible job at marketing the game properly.

What? Reveal has damage numbers appearing on enemies when You shoot and exp is pop up is shown when You kill one. They talk about loot and skills there too. It was marketed as RPG from the beginning.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Again, the problem is expectation.
From trailers and posters we know Godzilla and Cloverfield are coming, so that's why people don't complain, actually the monsters in a monster movie is the main reason people go to watch them.
We know a zombie film is going to have zombies, and the zombies are the main reason people go to watch a zombie movie.
We know we are watching an action film where real life human biology is irrelevant and the main hero eats bullets and shits napalm.
We know from previous racing games that certain real life logic doesn't apply.

The Division on the other hand opens up with you riding in a military helicopter, the cover is generic a dude with a gun, the gameplay videos are people with guns shooting at other people with guns.
All of those things also appear in CoD, Battlefield and other generic military shooters. People expected a specific type of military shooter.

I'm perfectly capable of looking beyond the dissonance and having fun with the game as it is. I just think a less serious setting would have been a better choice for this specific type of gameplay.
The intro of the game was cut from the beta and as the OP states they absolutely are honest about their intentions, from the inception, the player is looking around in a what appears to be a post apocalyptic world and then summons a holographic map.
the-division-map-hologram.jpg


Which apparently works like this:

Aside from the New York location visuals, it was never advertised as super realistic.
 

FX-GMC

Member
I can agree with this.

Borderlands series is a FPS, RPG. It has monsters and bandits. Headshots to regular monsters result in an instant kill majority of the time.. Bandits always IIRC.

Then the series has shields and color coded shield types. Yellow is basically armor and acid takes it down quicker. Blue is regular shield and electricity tales it down quick.

It depends on the weapon used. Headshot doesn't always = one shot kill but it does usually mean a critical hit.
 
This thread is weird. Sponginess and RPGs aren't directly connected. A regular shooter can have enemies that take a bazillion bullets, and RPGs can have enemies that die super quick.
 
It depends on the weapon used. Headshot doesn't always = one shot kill but it does usually mean a critical hit.

Then at that point the rest of you're team if you are in one. Will handle the rest.

Lets just be glad enemies can't regen their shields on the fly like in most games, yet.
 

Silvard

Member
The fact that it's an RPG has always been front and center in marketing and interviews and everything related to the game since day 1, it's just that the setting is fucking with people's heads. It's showing what a hard time people (in this very thread) have realizing that it's the mechanics/rules of the game that determine the genre, not the setting. It's especially sad to see people have such a limited capacity to abstract gameplay. If this were turn based or isometric people wouldn't even bat an eye. But that's probably because the only people interested in it then would be those who understand the gameplay they're going for.

There's a legitimate concern that the enemies might be too bulletspongey for decent and fun gameplay pacing, even taking into account the fact that it's an RPG. But when people talk about how everything should die in one or two headshots regardless of mechanics then that's not the concern they're raising.

honestly if in a game like Skyrim you could easily set some armourless villager on fire that easy I might actually play a magic character. until then a stealth archer where it takes skill to sneak, aim, account for drift, and where I can retrieve a single arrow from the enemied skull after a succesful shot is much more satisfying for me personally.

if you want a shooter RPG then why not keep shooting enjoyable and be creative about how leveling works instead- for a few examples... make damage realistic but allow armour to protect more and more, for enemies AND yourself too. maybe your first rifle would have a sight that always drifts to the left which would make it hard to aim but wouldn't stop you from accounting for it with a well aimed shot right between the gap in some bulletproof vest. Then when you earn a rifle with a straight scope you would actually appreciate it. Just never cheat actual skill.

It's not that difficult to think of this stuff but you'd need to shift expectations.

I don't have an exhaustive list of footage from the beta, but the footage from the press demos pre-beta was filled with sponges, like here, and here. And those are both videos with level 20 players fighting level 20 enemies.

I've also watched various streams from the beta, and the sponginess is of course mitigated by over-leveling the enemies, but "hard" missions and whatever raid-esque content MMO players seem to want is just going to push those enemy levels and resistances higher and higher, so sponginess is the fate for this game.

Some people love it, and want their stats to do the shooting and they see no disconnect with the setting. For others its the opposite, and probably more pronounced if you're a long time fan of Clancy games.


It seems just as stupid to say that any Clancy RPG must scale damage to level. You could still have classes and skills and loot variety, and direct stat affecting systems like accuracy, reload speed, zoom speed, draw speed, stamina, heartbeat control to reduce sway, flinch resistance, recoil compensation, etc etc etc etc. without bringing sponges into the picture. Its possible, and I think it would fit the license and setting better.

Oh yeah these sound like so much more fun alternatives...especially when it comes to gunplay...
 
The fact that it's an RPG has always been front and center in marketing and interviews and everything related to the game since day 1, it's just that the setting is fucking with people's heads. It's showing what a hard time people (in this very thread) have realizing that it's the mechanics/rules of the game that determine the genre, not the setting. It's especially sad to see people have such a limited capacity to abstract gameplay. If this were turn based or isometric people wouldn't even bat an eye. But that's probably because the only people interested in it then would be those who understand the gameplay they're going for.






Oh yeah these sound like so much more fun alternatives...especially when it comes to gunplay...

Plus gunplay feels like that already to some degree and some people are not feeling it. So there's is some disconnect when it comes to weaponry.
 
This thread is weird. Sponginess and RPGs aren't directly connected. A regular shooter can have enemies that take a bazillion bullets, and RPGs can have enemies that die super quick.

It's not weird at all. In an RPG you wouldn't expect an enemy to die in a single shit when you're below their level or at it. The point is enemies aren't bullet sponges, they're like any other RPG enemy with HP and rweuitinf multiple hits to kill.

I don't understand why the thread title is confusing to people unless some people simply didn't read the post at all, which I'm starting to suspect.

All this thread proves is how laughably derivative most RPG settings and gameplay has been if one that does something different is suddenly not considered one. It's no different from how JRPGs that stray from the norm are no longer considered the same genre. And this is coming from someone who isn't the biggest Ubisoft fan outside of the older Splinter Cell games

edit: So many typos. I need to stop typing on my phone
 
It's not weird at all. In an RPG you wouldn't expect an enemy to die in a single shit when you're below their level or at it. The point is enemies aren't bullet sponges, they're like any other RPG enemy with HP and rweuitinf multiple hits to kill.

I don't understand why the thread title.is confusing to people unless some people simply didn't read the post at all, which I'm starting to suspect.

All this thread proves is how laughably derivative most RPG settings and gameplaybhas been that one that does something different is suddenly not considered one. It's no different from how JRPGs that stray from the norm ate no longer considered the same genre. And this is coming from someone who isn't the biggest Ubisoft fan outside of the older Splinter Cell games

I know right.
 
It doesn't matter what genre excuse you make for your game. If you have a lot of guns and 90% of the experience consists of mostly shooting things, shooting things should be fun.

XCOM 2 isn't a shooter, but it's fun to shoot things.

It's not fun to shoot things in the Division.
 

FX-GMC

Member
It doesn't matter what genre excuse you make for your game. If you have a lot of guns and 90% of the experience consists of mostly shooting things, shooting things should be fun.

XCOM 2 isn't a shooter, but it's fun to shoot things.

It's not fun to shoot things in the Division.

I think the shooting is fun. What do we do now?
 
It's not weird at all. In an RPG you wouldn't expect an enemy to die in a single shit when you're below their level or at it. The point is enemies aren't bullet sponges, they're like any other RPG enemy with HP and rweuitinf multiple hits to kill.

I don't understand why the thread title.is confusing to people unless some people simply didn't read the post at all, which I'm starting to suspect.

All this thread proves is how laughably derivative most RPG settings and gameplaybhas been that one that does something different is suddenly not considered one. It's no different from how JRPGs that stray from the norm ate no longer considered the same genre. And this is coming from someone who isn't the biggest Ubisoft fan outside of the older Splinter Cell games

Well, bullet sponge complaints are more a symptom than a problem themselves. Basically the complaint is that the fight with whatever spongy enemy is significantly longer than it is interesting.

So if I say 'This fight is boring!', saying 'But it's a RPG!' in defence doesn't really make sense. Are all RPG fights boring? No of course not. It could still be a RPG with or without bullet spongy enemies.

Of course there's the 'modern setting = some amount of realism' side of the bullet sponge argument, but each person is probably going to have their own line on what they consider acceptable.
 

Tovarisc

Member
It doesn't matter what genre excuse you make for your game. If you have a lot of guns and 90% of the experience consists of mostly shooting things, shooting things should be fun.

XCOM 2 isn't a shooter, but it's fun to shoot things.

It's not fun to shoot things in the Division.

XCOM 2 is all fun and games until that critical miss at critical time, and you have 95% chance of hitting. Then shit gets serious and for some word "fun" goes out of window :D

Why shooting things in Division isn't fun for you?
 
It doesn't matter what genre excuse you make for your game. If you have a lot of guns and 90% of the experience consists of mostly shooting things, shooting things should be fun.

XCOM 2 isn't a shooter, but it's fun to shoot things.

It's not fun to shoot things in the Division.

In XCom2 you don't shoot things, you click and allow your character to do the job for you its a different game (Also is not always fun but then again i only liked the first two xcom games) and in The Division you don't always shot things. You can use other abilities. But why is that a problem i have no idea. Different strokes for different folks.
 

theWB27

Member
It doesn't matter what genre excuse you make for your game. If you have a lot of guns and 90% of the experience consists of mostly shooting things, shooting things should be fun.

XCOM 2 isn't a shooter, but it's fun to shoot things.

It's not fun to shoot things in the Division.

It was allot of fun to me. I imagine it's gonna get hella fun once we're able to use all the other abilities in the full game. .
 

Cleve

Member
I thought the division beta is great. It's definitely heavier on the RPG mechanics, but I like that. Destiny seems to do well with the formula. My big worry about The Division is content, not damage systems.
 
Where do I even begin with this. Jesus.

You don't get it do you? In XCOM YOU as in YOU, are not the characters in the game on the ground killing aliens in real time. Its a turn based game and you're in god mode aka the master controller. So YOU don't actually, create a character and explore a world and encounter things and shoot things.

But again why are you comparing two different games i don't understand.
 

Rockyrock

Member
For a game with "Tom Clancy's" title, set in a "reallistic near future", the fact that a guy with a headscarf takes a full clip in the head and survives is utter nonsense.

It breaks immersion and it's simply not fun.
The game's a 3rd person cover shooter RPG.
You should die pretty fast if you break cover and take a SHOT IN YOUR UNPROTECTED HEAD. >(

I really hope they sort out this for launch.
:/
when they said 'realistic' they were talking in terms of setting, weapon/gear, and character design.

theres honestly no point to an RPG type game if enemies are going to die in 1 shot lol.

What would ever be the point of acquiring loot?

If its not youre thing just play a shooter more of your style instead of trying to change the entire genre of the game?
 
theres honestly no point to an RPG type game if enemies are going to die in 1 shot lol.

What would ever be the point of acquiring loot?
I see this sentiment a lot but I don't understand it.

Loot is far more than pure damage. Its specialization, its utility, its special abilities and cooldowns and crafting components and sometimes just about looking bad-ass.

Why not hunt down different weapons for your arsenal with different qualities (high caliber, high fire rate, long range, penetration, ease of mobility, reliability, and with specific customizations)? Why not hunt down higher quality armor, gear like electronics, grenades, counter measures, mines, or even clothing to balance defense, mobility, storage and camo properties? And what about all the modifications like scopes, grips, and even tweaks like Ghost Recon's gunsmith system? All of these items could all found or scavenged from the world in different states of repair, and require differing levels of skill or tools to fix or customize.

Again, all of that would still fit perfectly well with the setting and the license. As enemies increase in levels they roll in more capable packs, with a variety of specialize roles, armor and higher powered weaponry - the kind of stuff you don't just find lying around, and the kind of gear that's harder to maintain in top shape in the middle of a semi-apocalypse, thus its rarity.

The only novel thing you get in a loot game with scaled damage is this idea that one piece of equipment can be droolworthy over another piece purely because its rated a 320 rather than a 318. And for this benefit, you now have to scale the entire world so that players will find themselves overleveled or underleveled, taking enemies down in one shot without even trying in the first instance (something you describe as pointless), and getting instakilled by much higher level enemies regardless of clever play in the second instance. You get bullet sponges and scaling issues and co-op issues and end up with enemies with hoodies that have magical properties.

I think a lot of people have an extremely narrow definition of what an RPG or loot game can be. They don't have to be carbon copies of what has come before, especially when you're trying to make a new kind of hybrid genre to attract both Tom Clancy shooter fans and RPG players.

That's the game they made though, and I'm not arguing for them to change it. Just arguing that there are a wealth of different paths they could have tread, and the one they settled on isn't the only possible combination of third person action and RPG they could have made.

Again, my problem with the Division isn't that its an RPG, its that its particular RPG systems don't mesh well with the setting or the license. Thats not the case for other action RPG loot shooters like Destiny and Warframe.
 

deoee

Member
Where the hell has this thread gone?

XCOM2 vs The Division WHAT?

Next we will compare Command & Conquer to Halo
wtzgU.gif
 

Big_Al

Unconfirmed Member
I see this sentiment a lot but I don't understand it.

Loot is far more than pure damage. Its specialization, its utility, its special abilities and cooldowns and crafting components and sometimes just about looking bad-ass.

Why not hunt down different weapons for your arsenal with different qualities (high caliber, high fire rate, long range, penetration, ease of mobility, reliability, and with specific customizations)? Why not hunt down higher quality armor, gear like electronics, grenades, counter measures, mines, or even clothing to balance defense, mobility, storage and camo properties? And what about all the modifications like scopes, grips, and even tweaks like Ghost Recon's gunsmith system? All of these items could all found or scavenged from the world in different states of repair, and require differing levels of skill or tools to fix or customize.

Again, all of that would still fit perfectly well with the setting and the license. As enemies increase in levels they roll in more capable packs, with a variety of specialize roles, armor and higher powered weaponry - the kind of stuff you don't just find lying around, and the kind of gear that's harder to maintain in top shape in the middle of a semi-apocalypse, thus its rarity.

The only novel thing you get in a loot game with scaled damage is this idea that one piece of equipment can be droolworthy over another piece purely because its rated a 320 rather than a 318. And for this benefit, you now have to scale the entire world so that players will find themselves overleveled or underleveled, taking enemies down in one shot without even trying in the first instance (something you describe as pointless), and getting instakilled by much higher level enemies regardless of clever play in the second instance. You get bullet sponges and scaling issues and co-op issues and end up with enemies with hoodies that have magical properties.

I think a lot of people have an extremely narrow definition of what an RPG or loot game can be. They don't have to be carbon copies of what has come before, especially when you're trying to make a new kind of hybrid genre to attract both Tom Clancy shooter fans and RPG players.

That's the game they made though, and I'm not arguing for them to change it. Just arguing that there are a wealth of different paths they could have tread, and the one they settled on isn't the only possible combination of third person action and RPG they could have made.

Again, my problem with the Division isn't that its an RPG, its that its particular RPG systems don't mesh well with the setting or the license. Thats not the case for other action RPG loot shooters like Destiny and Warframe.


That's such a personal thing though. I think it fits perfectly fine and it doesn't bother me in the slightest, hell I find it rather refreshing than being a part of some pure sci fi or fantasy universe. Obviously you feel different and that's cool but you can't just go 'it doesn't fit' as I don't agree with that at all.

I like some of your suggestions above as well and think they could be cool in an RPG, I just don't think it would be automatically better than what's there. Of course I want to play the full game to see how things fully operate/interact etc. The beta was so restricted in what you could do.
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Possibly because most people don't read every interview or piece of pre-release media. The first I knew it was an RPG was a couple of weeks before the beta.


Well then, you either weren't following the game at all. Like, at all. Or you're incredibly unaware.


The announcement trailer for the game called it an RPG. And every single piece of gameplay, price view, etc in the next three years to follow, did the same.


You didn't have to be following closely or relaxing every article. Any single piece of media aside from the story trailers would bring you to the conclusion that it was an RPG.
 
That's such a personal thing though. I think it fits perfectly fine and it doesn't bother me in the slightest, hell I find it rather refreshing than being a part of some pure sci fi or fantasy universe. Obviously you feel different and that's cool but you can't just go 'it doesn't fit' as I don't agree with that at all.
Definitely personal, and I only speak for myself here. I also don't think people are wrong for enjoying it, or that they need to explain themselves.

What I mean by "doesn't fit" is enemies wearing civilian clothes shrugging off bursts of gunfire like its nothing and elites that need a full squad focus firing them for quite a while to down. That doesn't fit with the presentation and grounded setting, nor does it mesh with other Clancy games. Its the kind of thing that ONLY makes sense when looking strictly at the RPG damage scaling in isolation, and nothing else.

I can absolutely see what MMO and Destiny-like RPG fans would see in that stuff, but I don't see the allure for classic Clancy fans outside of the game's "skin".
 

Big_Al

Unconfirmed Member
Definitely personal, and I only speak for myself here. I also don't think people are wrong for enjoying it, or that they need to explain themselves.

What I mean by "doesn't fit" is enemies wearing civilian clothes shrugging off bursts of gunfire like its nothing and elites that need a full squad focus firing them for quite a while to down. That doesn't fit with the presentation and grounded setting, nor does it mesh with other Clancy games. Its the kind of thing that ONLY makes sense when looking strictly at the RPG damage scaling in isolation, and nothing else.

I can absolutely see what MMO and Destiny-like RPG fans would see in that stuff, but I don't see the allure for classic Clancy fans outside of the game's "skin".

I guess, speaking for myself as a fan of the Tom Clancy games in general, it's just different and hence that's the appeal :) Of course I wouldn't want Splinter Cell or Ghost Recon like this but for a new IP it's all good, but I certainly understand where you're coming from in your issues with it even if I don't agree.
 

TheYanger

Member
I see this sentiment a lot but I don't understand it.

Loot is far more than pure damage. Its specialization, its utility, its special abilities and cooldowns and crafting components and sometimes just about looking bad-ass.

Why not hunt down different weapons for your arsenal with different qualities (high caliber, high fire rate, long range, penetration, ease of mobility, reliability, and with specific customizations)? Why not hunt down higher quality armor, gear like electronics, grenades, counter measures, mines, or even clothing to balance defense, mobility, storage and camo properties? And what about all the modifications like scopes, grips, and even tweaks like Ghost Recon's gunsmith system? All of these items could all found or scavenged from the world in different states of repair, and require differing levels of skill or tools to fix or customize.

Again, all of that would still fit perfectly well with the setting and the license. As enemies increase in levels they roll in more capable packs, with a variety of specialize roles, armor and higher powered weaponry - the kind of stuff you don't just find lying around, and the kind of gear that's harder to maintain in top shape in the middle of a semi-apocalypse, thus its rarity.

The only novel thing you get in a loot game with scaled damage is this idea that one piece of equipment can be droolworthy over another piece purely because its rated a 320 rather than a 318. And for this benefit, you now have to scale the entire world so that players will find themselves overleveled or underleveled, taking enemies down in one shot without even trying in the first instance (something you describe as pointless), and getting instakilled by much higher level enemies regardless of clever play in the second instance. You get bullet sponges and scaling issues and co-op issues and end up with enemies with hoodies that have magical properties.

I think a lot of people have an extremely narrow definition of what an RPG or loot game can be. They don't have to be carbon copies of what has come before, especially when you're trying to make a new kind of hybrid genre to attract both Tom Clancy shooter fans and RPG players.

That's the game they made though, and I'm not arguing for them to change it. Just arguing that there are a wealth of different paths they could have tread, and the one they settled on isn't the only possible combination of third person action and RPG they could have made.

Again, my problem with the Division isn't that its an RPG, its that its particular RPG systems don't mesh well with the setting or the license. Thats not the case for other action RPG loot shooters like Destiny and Warframe.

This is all false though.
You don't need it to differentiate between 318 and 320 damage, you need it to differentiate between things like sniper rifles and SMGs. As it stands now you CAN be so powerful in The Division that you basically one shot elite mobs with proper gear, the reason people think mobs are bullet spongey is because they don't have that gear or don't gear in that way. That's where the need for stats to matter comes into play, if people bitching that their starter gear on the first elite mobs they run accross cannot kill them in one shot, how do you propose they then be able to one shot it yet still have ANY gear progression matter?

You already can do it once you're geared better, and by the types of weaopns/skills/stats you gear for it excels even moreso, as it should. As soon as you make something one shot lethal, you remove any incentive to gear above that point, the lower you set that bar the less important gear becomes since the only real relevent metrics in this type of game are damage and survival (there are types of damage and such, but the point is that there isn't a lot of room for much else). Why do Shotguns and Sniper rifles need to exist if I can just headshot something with my basic assault rifle and kill it?
Watch the damage numbers video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmmqTQNbNkE
The guy is using a sniper rifle later on in the 'hard' mode version of the madison field hospital instance, and basically one shotting elite mobs at his level. That HAS to be the baseline for that type of weapon or build to even be relevant.
 
As soon as you make something one shot lethal, you remove any incentive to gear above that point, the lower you set that bar the less important gear becomes since the only real relevent metrics in this type of game are damage and survival (there are types of damage and such, but the point is that there isn't a lot of room for much else). Why do Shotguns and Sniper rifles need to exist if I can just headshot something with my basic assault rifle and kill it?
This dismisses any and all gear progression in non-loot shooters. The reason you'll still want sniper rifles and shotguns is the same reason we don't use assault rifles for all of our combat operations in the real world - different weapons are made to solve different problems, at different costs and complexity, with different levels of risk. The trick is to have game systems that present those problems and showcase and accentuate the differences between different pieces of gear that provide a solid balance between risk and reward. You see this with unlocks in games like COD and Battlefield and others, and you see it because those games have tried to develop their own long progression systems and player investment systems and light RPG elements without scaling damage.

So you use a sniper rifle at long range but not in close quarters where a shotgun will easier and more effective, etc. Different sniper rifles could be distinguished by all kinds of properties: caliber and penetration, range, weight, capacity, mobility, recoil, rate of fire, reliability, particular options for attachments like scopes and suppressors, current condition (new, worn, busted), ease of use, ease of upgrades, ease of customizations. Those are some of your dimensions for loot. Instead of a level 1 item meaning a certain amount of DPS against level 1 enemies, it would represent a common, low tech weapon, or maybe a higher tech piece of kit but in a state of disrepair. Higher level items would be different classes of weapon that require more skill to use, or lower level weapons that have been modded and customized.

Its not like there can't be very real reasons to acquire and expand your arsenal besides the old standby of level based obsolescence, but it requires game systems that make those differences important. So you get mechanics like sway and breath control for marksman weapons like sniper rifles which can again play into other gear that can optimize these values, but at the cost of building a loadout that is very situational - ie. You aren't always going to be tackling enemies at long range where you have time to set up your shots. Sometimes you'll be in closed quarters with short sight-lines, sometimes you'll need silenced weapons, sometimes you'll want to avoid overpenetrating targets, sometimes you'll need anti-armor or anti-personnel, sometimes you'll want more stopping power than fire rate, etc etc etc. Thus you won't just want different classes of weapon, you'll want different types within each class, and even different customizations and tweaks for each type. And none of these considerations are exclusive to twitch shooters. You could model all of these factors in a turn based shooter like an X-Com and blend both RPG management with a more grounded logic behind the shooting.

So yeah, I still don't think you need level gating and damage scaling to have a reason to acquire loot. Eventually you'll have all the skills and all the weapons, and they'll be in mint condition with all the mods, but that would happen regardless of how you design the game.

That you are capable of taking down unarmored enemies with any firearm doesn't remove difficulty or progression. Some enemies can have higher levels of training, make better use of cover, push forward only when in groups and flank when players are suppressed. Some can have armor or shields, or attack with flashbangs or smoke, some will have weaponry better suited to the combat zone, some will fire and maneuver to force you to flush them out. Some will attack in larger numbers, from multiple directions or call in reinforcements. Don't throw all of these elements out there at level 1, mix it up as the setting calls for it, and ratchet up the complexity as you go, not just the health bars.

But I'm sure its a lot easier just go with the MMO/RPG standby of just having the damage numbers go up with each level, and end up with a situation where fighting a 2nd level enemy with 2nd level weapons is pretty much the same as fighting 20th level enemies with 20th level weapons, and the playerbase will excitedly wait for the next expansion where the numbers go up even more so they can work their way back to the new numeric status quo.

Its a Clancy game right? The numbers have never been the star of the show, the particular weapons and gear are, and the tactics they afford are. There are reasons to choose one model or another, one scope or another, and reducing that complexity to a simple calculation where one of them is +3 DPS and the other is +5 DPS does the license a disservice. Its as if The Crew was a Forza game, but with neither the physics nor the upgrades (The Crew flattens that all out into color coded +5 looty parts), and where your cars performance is limited by its parts, and those parts are limited by your player level. It wouldn't be strange to see Forza fans grumpy at the thought, and its not all that different here.

But hey, as long as they don't pull this kind of thing with Wildlands I'll be OK ;p
 

TheYanger

Member
This dismisses any and all gear progression in non-loot shooters. The reason you'll still want sniper rifles and shotguns is the same reason we don't use assault rifles for all of our combat operations in the real world - different weapons are made to solve different problems, at different costs and complexity, with different levels of risk. The trick is to have game systems that present those problems and showcase and accentuate the differences between different pieces of gear that provide a solid balance between risk and reward. You see this with unlocks in games like COD and Battlefield and others, and you see it because those games have tried to develop their own long progression systems and player investment systems and light RPG elements without scaling damage.

So you use a sniper rifle at long range but not in close quarters where a shotgun will easier and more effective, etc. Different sniper rifles could be distinguished by all kinds of properties: caliber and penetration, range, weight, capacity, mobility, recoil, rate of fire, reliability, particular options for attachments like scopes and suppressors, current condition (new, worn, busted), ease of use, ease of upgrades, ease of customizations. Those are some of your dimensions for loot. Instead of a level 1 item meaning a certain amount of DPS against level 1 enemies, it would represent a common, low tech weapon, or maybe a higher tech piece of kit but in a state of disrepair. Higher level items would be different classes of weapon that require more skill to use, or lower level weapons that have been modded and customized.

Its not like there can't be very real reasons to acquire and expand your arsenal besides the old standby of level based obsolescence, but it requires game systems that make those differences important. So you get mechanics like sway and breath control for marksman weapons like sniper rifles which can again play into other gear that can optimize these values, but at the cost of building a loadout that is very situational - ie. You aren't always going to be tackling enemies at long range where you have time to set up your shots. Sometimes you'll be in closed quarters with short sight-lines, sometimes you'll need silenced weapons, sometimes you'll want to avoid overpenetrating targets, sometimes you'll need anti-armor or anti-personnel, sometimes you'll want more stopping power than fire rate, etc etc etc. Thus you won't just want different classes of weapon, you'll want different types within each class, and even different customizations and tweaks for each type. And none of these considerations are exclusive to twitch shooters. You could model all of these factors in a turn based shooter like an X-Com and blend both RPG management with a more grounded logic behind the shooting.

So yeah, I still don't think you need level gating and damage scaling to have a reason to acquire loot. Eventually you'll have all the skills and all the weapons, and they'll be in mint condition with all the mods, but that would happen regardless of how you design the game.

That you are capable of taking down unarmored enemies with any firearm doesn't remove difficulty or progression. Some enemies can have higher levels of training, make better use of cover, push forward only when in groups and flank when players are suppressed. Some can have armor or shields, or attack with flashbangs or smoke, some will have weaponry better suited to the combat zone, some will fire and maneuver to force you to flush them out. Some will attack in larger numbers, from multiple directions or call in reinforcements. Don't throw all of these elements out there at level 1, mix it up as the setting calls for it, and ratchet up the complexity as you go, not just the health bars.

But I'm sure its a lot easier just go with the MMO/RPG standby of just having the damage numbers go up with each level, and end up with a situation where fighting a 2nd level enemy with 2nd level weapons is pretty much the same as fighting 20th level enemies with 20th level weapons, and the playerbase will excitedly wait for the next expansion where the numbers go up even more so they can work their way back to the new numeric status quo.

Its a Clancy game right? The numbers have never been the star of the show, the particular weapons and gear are, and the tactics they afford are. There are reasons to choose one model or another, one scope or another, and reducing that complexity to a simple calculation where one of them is +3 DPS and the other is +5 DPS does the license a disservice. Its as if The Crew was a Forza game, but with neither the physics nor the upgrades (The Crew flattens that all out into color coded +5 looty parts), and where your cars performance is limited by its parts, and those parts are limited by your player level. It wouldn't be strange to see Forza fans grumpy at the thought, and its not all that different here.

But hey, as long as they don't pull this kind of thing with Wildlands I'll be OK ;p

You're talking about games with 20 weapons vs games with STATS, gear, and insane variability in their weapons all on top of it. The two things are not REMOTELY comparable. Even if you and I have the exact same gun there are actual stats that can have huge swings in our builds. You need granularity for that to matter, period. The ceilings and floors have to be farther apart for this to be meaningful.
 
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