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The Last Jedi released 3 years ago today...

I'm not really a fan of The Last Jedi as a movie overall, but it's the only film in the Sequel Trilogy that displays any kind of understanding of the underlying themes of Star Wars around non-violence, the path of the Jedi, and so on. It understands Star Wars in a way that the JJ Abrams movies simply don't. Those movies are a childish imitation of Star Wars by someone who only really cared about the pew pew, lightsabers, and X-Wings. The way the film is shot does have a sense of artistry to it, a sense of slowness and thoughtfulness that calls to mind Lucas's work. It's a deconstruction of TFA just as Lucas himself deconstructed the idealized vision of the Jedi presented in the OT. Yes, the film's best scenes are basically retreads of scenes from Revenge of the Sith and Attack of the Clones. But they don't come across as "let's just slap the imagery onscreen with no regard for theme or context" the way TFA and TROS did.


TROS straight up pisses all over Lucas's advocacy of non-violence and personal sacrifice that is baked into the DNA of Star Wars as a series. Luke overcomes the Emperor because he lays down his weapon. The message of Star Wars that was firmly cemented across the six Lucas films was "don't kill people, and be compassionate". TROS teaches that the path to victory is using two lightsabers to kill the bad guy instead of one.

TFA is a hollow fan-service-fest where the MF is just sitting off to the left of the camera with the space keys in the space ignition. It is purified memberberries. It is the worst kind of pandering to OT Star Wars fans that rode a massive wave of hype, selling them a hollow imitation of something that once had social/political meaning behind it. Lucas intended children to watch Star Wars and come away thinking about the temptation of power and how doing the right thing is hard. Terribly hard.


The thing that is so brilliant about Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi is that Luke stood strong in the face of death. He was afraid, but he refused the temptation to give in. In Revenge of the Sith, in this scene's mirror image, Anakin is afraid, and at the moment of truth, his fear consumes him. He mixes up fear and control and love and cannot see the path of the Jedi. So he makes a terrible decision because he is ruled by fear of loss, his weakness since childhood.

The issue with TLJ is that I don't think the film did a good enough job conveying what had gone wrong with Luke. I think that it does an okay job if you sit down with it, but it needed some fleshing out to help audiences understanding that Luke cracks. Just a little bit. He would never have harmed Ben. But in that one moment, the fear worms in, and his lights his saber. He lets fear control him, just for a moment. Just like it did Anakin. Just like it almost did him. And his moment of fear is misinterpreted as hate, and everything snowball from there by a frightened Ben. Again, fear. Ben is driven by fear. Fear that he isn't good enough. Fear that he's a poser in a mask. Fear that he has done the wrong thing and damned himself.

There's some really good stuff there, and I think Star Wars 9 had an opportunity to take these developing threads and weave them into a finale rivaling Revenge of the Sith. A compelling character driven movie that leaves a permanent impact. Instead we got a wet fart in TROS that feels like a bad Marvel movie instead.
 

teezzy

Banned
The Last Jedi was a mess.

SINS

prequel "humor"
(the space leprechaun got more screentime than boyega, btw)
tumblr_pbwfj6DWgF1vec0xno6_500.gifv


stupid little kids
main-qimg-911e991b7e1c7d314769c60c26c4bcf5

These were charming little touches that add to the heart of the movie. They're cute.
 

teezzy

Banned
It's not a bad movie.

But it's not the best Star Wars or the worst Star Wars movie ever. The hyperbole around this movie has been unbearable (although I do sympathize with those who dislike it more than those who worship it).

It has good cinematography but it's kinda average plot wise? I'm not a fan of the direction they took Luke in but subsequent viewings have softened my overall hate for it.

Easily my favorite apart from the original trilogy. Maybe even better than RotJ tbh. I hope more people come around to TLJ as time passes
 

BluRayHiDef

Banned
The Last Jedi is my second favorite Star Wars movie, behind Revenge of the Sith. I love Andy Serkis' performance as Snoke, Kylo Ren's unexpected betrayal of Snoke, how Luke defeats Kylo without actually fighting him, and the cinematography of the film (it's the best looking Star Wars movie).

A lot of people dislike it because they believe that it reduces Finn to comedic relief and relegates him to unimportant side quests and because they believe that identity politics and diversity were forced into its narrative (e.g. pink-haired Admiral Holdo, a woman who belittles the strong male character Po Dameron; Rose Tico, a pointless character who's included because she's female and a minority, etc). They may be right, but these aspects of the film don't detract from its core narrative.
 
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Phobos Base

Member
I didn't hate is as much as many did, but the fact they never had a coherent plan completely torpedoed the sequel trilogy. TFA was a solid foundation, but with TLJ they let someone make a left field vision and were surprised when no one liked it. ROS wsa a complete shitshow where they tried to retcon everything that had happened before, and was so incoherent it felt like a fan supercut of 3 separate films in itself.
 

Dazrael

Member
I find it crazy that some people still believe the film subverts expectation. In fact all it did was promise to do something different and then renege, sometimes in the very next scene.

Luke comically tosses the lightsaber and refuses to teach Rey...then agrees to teach her.

Ren tells Rey that they can produce something the galaxy has never seen before...and then devolves back into being a pantomime villain.

Crait looks like a diversely unique planet and is hammered home when we are told that the white stuff on the ground is salt instead of snow, you know just in case we thought it was Hoth 2.0.

Finn decided to sacrifice himself for the cause, a genuinely shock story choice if he went through with it...except he didn’t.

I’m sure there are many other instances of this but you get the point. Where is this supposed subversion? The film promised so much and delivered so little, I was interested in where it was going but in the end it never really veered in that direction. In fact I’d even say that it steered back into safe territory by the end of the film. Coupled with the rest of the bad choices the film made and you have a hot mess of a picture. Johnson should be kept as far away from the franchise as possible.
 

sol_bad

Member
I didn't hate is as much as many did, but the fact they never had a coherent plan completely torpedoed the sequel trilogy. TFA was a solid foundation, but with TLJ they let someone make a left field vision and were surprised when no one liked it. ROS wsa a complete shitshow where they tried to retcon everything that had happened before, and was so incoherent it felt like a fan supercut of 3 separate films in itself.

IMO if you read Colin Trovorrows script treatment for episode 9, it really did feel like they had a plan but Disney higher ups weren't confident in it. No idea who because it seems was better than what we got.
 

TriSuit666

Banned
You know that guy has another persona where he literally dresses as a Nazi SS death trooper, right?



You fucking idiot. It's based on the hokey Original Star Trek villians and their crappy 1960's costumes.

Death Trooper, I've literally heard it all.... *mutters* some fucking people...
 
These were charming little touches that add to the heart of the movie. They're cute.

The drunk space leprechaun barfing and then getting his pot o gold isn't charm.

Having Boyega spend a significant amount of time on screen with Rey would have been. Whoops!!!

We will likely never agree on anything. God bless.
 

sobaka770

Banned
Still the best SW movie after maybe ESB. I did a rewatch of all the movies recently with 4k releases and if we just take the sequel movies the cinematography, the themes, the understanding of Star Wars is just on a different level. Strongest moments, strongest character work, strongest ideas for expanding SW universe trapped by JJ just wanting to tell a safe superhero shlock story. It's only brought down a bit by Rian's overreliance of being a bit too upfront with his themes (that also applies to his critically acclaimed Knives Out btw).

When you put it in the middle of 2 JJ Abrams movies you really see how vapid and empty those are. Despite the constant camera movement, running around and slick angles even the entertaining episode 7 kind of starts to look just fake and surface-level shtick without anything but chracter chemistry dragging it through. RotS really seals JJ as someone who has no idea what he's doing apart from spinning up his mystery boxes and letting better writers find solutions for his shit.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
TLJ tried something different and I rate it as the best of the new trilogy, behind Rogue One.

TFA and especially Rise can suck cock.
 

UnNamed

Banned
The only new SW movie George Lucas praised.

Good movie? No, the entire ship chasing was too long for its own good, the part with Benicio DelToro was pretty useless, and Domnhall Gleeson is the most wasted talent in a SW movie after Natalie Portman.

But in its spirit, TLJ was the only one completely bounded to the old movies and Johnson truly understood what Lucas did with SW.

I don't understand why SW fans were upset by Luke's choices and Rey's past, it's a complete nonsense.

Luke is a flawed Jedi for tons of reasons that were explained in A Phantom Menace.
Rey's background , before the stupid retcon, have a perfect sense since the Force is blind, it doesn't choose a specific person, can be master besides the midichlorians.

Abrams on the contrary did a mess, two uncomplete movies where crucial parts were explained by external books and games.
 

Dazrael

Member
But in its spirit, TLJ was the only one completely bounded to the old movies and Johnson truly understood what Lucas did with SW.

Lucas made the original trilogy with the Jedi making a triumphant return and yet Johnson wanted to deconstruct everything to do with them. It sure sounds like he had an innate understanding of Star Wars.
 
A lot of people dislike it because they believe that it reduces Finn to comedic relief and relegates him to unimportant side quests and because they believe that identity politics and diversity were forced into its narrative (e.g. pink-haired Admiral Holdo, a woman who belittles the strong male character Po Dameron; Rose Tico, a pointless character who's included because she's female and a minority, etc). They may be right, but these aspects of the film don't detract from its core narrative.
Yeah, but that's bullshit.
Even apart from all the horrible SJW stuff, it's a bad movie.

Tonally completely over the place in almost each and every scene.
Completely deviated from what was laid out in TFA because RJ wanted to do his own movie that has almost nothing to do with what happened before.
Character assassinated one of the most loved characters in cinema history.
RJ doesn't understand Star Wars and its physics which is shown again and again. Once again he doesn't care about anything other than telling his lame story.
And at the end of the movie, he didn't leave anything for his successor to work with.
What a complete egoistic jerk.

also: tRoS being a gutter trash shit movie doesn't make this a better one, sorry.

TLJ is a movie for people that don't have any idea about Star Wars, and just want their agenda being displayed in modern movies. For the sake of killing off Star Wars.
 
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BluRayHiDef

Banned
Yeah, but that's bullshit.
Even apart from all the horrible SJW stuff, it's a bad movie.

Tonally completely over the place in almost each and every scene.
Completely deviated from what was laid out in TFA because RJ wanted to do his own movie that has almost nothing to do with what happened before.
Character assassinated one of the most loved characters in cinema history.
RJ doesn't understand Star Wars and its physics which is shown again and again. Once again he doesn't care about anything other than telling his lame story.
And at the end of the movie, he didn't leave anything for his successor to work with.
What a complete egoistic jerk.

also: tRoS being a gutter trash shit movie doesn't make this a better one, sorry.

TLJ is a movie for people that don't have any idea about Star Wars, and just want their agenda being displayed in modern movies. For the sake of killing off Star Wars.

If you weren't so condescending, I'd bother addressing your arguments. I'm done with you already.
 

UnNamed

Banned
Lucas made the original trilogy with the Jedi making a triumphant return and yet Johnson wanted to deconstruct everything to do with them. It sure sounds like he had an innate understanding of Star Wars.
You saw a different movie.

Luke was not seen as a true Jedi even by Yoda for almost 2 movies and till his end 'cause Luke was too much impulsive. He thought it was too dangerous to teach Luke to Jedi's art and too dangerous for him to face Vader without a proper training.

The Jedi' s council unwilling to have Anakin because the same reasons.

It's the same SW logic and story arc to imply that Luke wasn't the perfect true Jedi hero capable to make the Jedi Order come back to life.
 
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This has always been the weirdest shit after the OT for me.

This thing, that having some powers to make stuff levitate and doing "mind tricks" makes you go and construct Ausschwitz and being the next Hitler immediately, if you don't have STRICT TRAINING!
 

TTOOLL

Member
The Mandalorian is good; it should restore your interest in the franchise.

I actually watched season 1 because a friend told me it was good. It is, but I can't get excited with the franchise anymore. They've milked it too much.

It doesn't feel special anymore, you know what I mean?
 

Dazrael

Member
You saw a different movie.

Luke was not seen as a true Jedi even by Yoda for almost 2 movies and till his end 'cause Luke was too much impulsive. He thought it was too dangerous to teach Luke to Jedi's art and too dangerous for him to face Vader without a proper training.

The Jedi' s council unwilling to have Anakin because the same reasons.

It's the same SW logic and story arc to imply that Luke wasn't the perfect true Jedi hero capable to make the Jedi Order come back to life.

I think you saw a different narrative, certainly one that wasn’t even thought of back then.

Luke completed the hero’s journey by the end of ROTJ, he overcame the hurdles that Anakin fell at and emerged the true saviour of the Jedi. He might have acted implusively in Empire but he learned his lesson by the time ROTJ happens.

For the sequel trilogy to imply that Luke suffered the same flaws as his father totally diminishes his character and his feats in the OT. All they did was turn Rey into Luke’s character and more or less tell the same story, hardly subversive. The OT has a complete story, certainly nothing to imply that Luke would have depression issues further down the line.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
Pretty sure he posted this video on purpose as a joke to get his haters to "use it against him".

Nah, he liked the movie until he realized that trashing it daily on YouTube would make a lot of money and then started to just parrot what other channels were saying about it.

Hell when he "broke" his TLJ DVD, he really only broke the extras disc and not the movie itself.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
It's still a mystery how Disney execs, notorious for interfering with creative works to steer things in the directions they want, took a look at this dead-ending story and thought "yea, this is fine, let's demolish a three part story right in the middle act, leaving us nowhere to go, and in the most boring way ever for Star Wars".

That movie was flat out poor in every way. The story was boring and stupid. It would have taken two films to properly clean up that mess, and they only allowed J.J. one, and then still fucked with his vision when he agreed to come back and try to salvage things. Johnson and Kennedy ruined the chances for proper Star Wars films for probably a decade.
 

Happosai

Hold onto your panties
A movie so good a fourty year strong fan base threw its hands up and walked away.

Disney are lucky that Mando landed as well as it did, otherwise they’d have successfully killed one of the greatest story telling achievements of the twentieth century with... whatever the fuck this was supposed to be.
I still feel that Mandolorian will be forgotten like everything else Disney post 1980's in like 10-15 years. Not saying it's bad but it's going to hold up like 20th-century cinema.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I left that theater so disappointed... Just killed any interest I had left in the sequel trilogy and really a lot of the love I had for Star Wars overall.
 

daveonezero

Banned
All of the Disney star wars movies are bad, not just the last jedi.

I think I am steering in this direction. I just get super bummed out that they had a chance to have Han, Leia and Luke in at least 1 movie together to continue the story.

TLJ I liked for it being a bit different. I liked the whole movie is a chase scene. I just didn't like how they got to the end or what happened. Rey sucks. Kylo Sucks.

ROS sucked because of Palpatine.

I still feel that Mandolorian will be forgotten like everything else Disney post 1980's in like 10-15 years. Not saying it's bad but it's going to hold up like 20th-century cinema.

I just watched Clone Wars for the second time. Mando is going to be fine in 10 years.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
the movie destroyed Star Wars in so many ways:

- main villains look completely incompetent. Kylo Ren getting owned two times in a row is not a good setup if he is meant to be main villain of the third movie. Empire had the stakes get raised, this is why people were looking forward to ROTJ. this is basic storytelling setup that Rian completely didn't give a shit about.
- the force itself is fucked. Luke needing to use physical effort to do his force trick completely undermines everything about the force. Luke is now a cautionary tale -- don't overuse the force or it could kill you. now that force is tied to life essence, it paved the way for JJ's Force Healing: if using the force can kill you then it can bring you back to life. not enough people understand how massively Luke dying from using the force fucks the whole series.
- Rey says "i need someone to show me my place in all this". im sorry, that is not a plot. if the LEAD CHARACTER is asking what she is doing in the second movie of your trilogy, you have failed. try and imagine John McClane wandering around during Die Hard 2 asking what he is supposed to be doing, nobody would put up with that shit.
- nostalgia ripoffs. everyone gave JJ a hard time for Force Awakens, yet apparently, you couldn't give Rian shit for re-using giant parts of Empire and Jedi. just taking entire sequences and tweaking one or two things. Rian wanted to have his cake an eat it too, ripoff tons of stuff from the old movies and then also claim he was brave and original. he wasn't. everything outside the terrible sitcom-level b and c stories was ripped entirely from the OT. it is as unoriginal as TFA ever was.
- Leia misused. how come Leia not once in the entire trilogy talks to her son? they put them on Crait, fucking face to face, and nobody says a word. absolutely incompetent writing.
- Luke's cringey fucking Comic Con level speech to Kylo Ren. i'm sorry, that message board speak will age like milk. "every word you just said is wrong" rolling my fucking eyes at this still. when he brushed his shoulders i felt like i was watching a Funny or Die skit.
- the Jedi Temple backstory was shit. to start with, it's confusing as fuck, because rather than come up with a backstory that makes any sense, we see the same 1 minute scene, acted out in different ways, 3 different times. no SW movies has a flashback in it and now we have one with three flashbacks of the same moment, all contradicting one another. also where are the other students? did Kylo kill them too? was he the only student, like it seems in Rian's flashbacks? it really feels like Rian just invented some drama between Luke and Kylo and didn't bother even considering the world itself.

really for me, it is (1) Luke dying from using the force (2) Leia not having any meaningful interaction with Kylo (3) nostalgia ripoffs while telling me its BRAVE AND NEW to redo 40 year old scenes
 
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#Phonepunk#

Banned
the worst you can say about TFA and TROS is they are corny and optimistic. TLJ is cynical, nihilistic, too smart for the genre. for those reasons alone TLJ is the least like Star Wars. it is soulless. in deconstructing things Rian undermines the universe which is built on belief in hope. the Jedi are useless, even Leia is prepared to have her brother kill her child without saying a thing to him. Luke has a death wish. no hope allowed except for some token speech by a cold, stern person in authority who commits suicide soon after. this is a beyond fucked version of the optimistic Star Wars everyone grew up on and loved for decades and decades.

yes he subverted things, but in doing so, he made it not a Star Wars movie. if i draw a triangle but i draw it in a subversive way with four sides, i can still call it a triangle, but that does not make it a triangle. i can even say that it has three sides and 3 angles. still it is not a triangle. he made an un-Star Wars movie, a movie designed to be the opposite of what a Star Wars movie should be, so no surprise that audience members felt differently to it than with the other movies. if i draw a triangle by drawing a circle and calling that a triangle, me calling it a triangle will probably upset fans of triangles. that is to be expected.

i think Rian was smart to completely pander to the pseudo intellectual crowd, the same people who would review his movie and stan him on Twitter. this is why he wrote things like the salt scene, which make zero sense in the content of the film, but only work as reactionary Twitter-focused activism. this is a Star Wars movie written with the Twitter audience at the front and center. this will make it age terribly. as those politics go out of fashion, this movie will be more easily seen for what it really is, a self-satisfied excersize in wasting millions of people's time and money which failed to develop a trilogy and offered no reason to see a third movie.

thus, as second movie in a trilogy, it was a failure in what it was supposed to be, though Rian was primarily concerned with satisfying himself and people who think like him, so by that metric it is a success. his use of animated GIFs style shot design and (empty, hollow) theme-ing gives internet critics enough ammo to "win" any argument.

but in the future, when all the madness has died down, i think the unsatisfying nature of the story and what it did to the rest of the ST will leave a bitter taste.
 
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It was so awful I couldn't even be bothered to go see the last one in the theater. It absolutely killed SW for me. I finally got around to watching the third one and I couldn't even finish it. So I guess that's a point in TLJs favor. At least I finished that turd sandwhich.
Didn't go to the theater for Rise either due to TLJ, I did eventually watch it when it came to VOD (also sucked, but not as much as TLJ)
 

AJUMP23

Gold Member
ROS sucked because of Palpatine.


This was a bad decision. And it comes from not knowing what they want to do with the character they created in the beginning. They take 3 good characters in the first of the sequels and do nothing interesting with them. They even sideline Po and Fin. It would have been smarter to crank out an overall plan for the characters and the twist and turns of the story. Instead they wanted to get something out quickly and planned nothing out with any thought. Then they did not know who was important, and why. I remember interviews for the first one with JJ saying she is important to the Force. All that was a lie because they didn't plan who she was. I am sure Kennedy just said, I want a strong independent female lead, they had that in the first movie, in the third movie she has no direction. Where as look in the first movie, knew nothing and wanted to go anywhere else, by the 3rd movie, he knew who he was, and what he had to do.

TLJ also treats Luke like garbage and is a fundamental misunderstanding of the character of Luke Skywalker.
 

daveonezero

Banned
This was a bad decision. And it comes from not knowing what they want to do with the character they created in the beginning. They take 3 good characters in the first of the sequels and do nothing interesting with them. They even sideline Po and Fin. It would have been smarter to crank out an overall plan for the characters and the twist and turns of the story. Instead they wanted to get something out quickly and planned nothing out with any thought. Then they did not know who was important, and why. I remember interviews for the first one with JJ saying she is important to the Force. All that was a lie because they didn't plan who she was. I am sure Kennedy just said, I want a strong independent female lead, they had that in the first movie, in the third movie she has no direction. Where as look in the first movie, knew nothing and wanted to go anywhere else, by the 3rd movie, he knew who he was, and what he had to do.

TLJ also treats Luke like garbage and is a fundamental misunderstanding of the character of Luke Skywalker.
Yep no plan. No character development and just fan service to the SJWs really.

Total opposite of what Lucas did originally and what Filoni did with Clone Wars. He purposely made Asoka unlikable to then turn her into a fan favorite.

Rey (grown force sensetive) Po (rebelious pilot) and Fin (reformed trooper) all could have been awesome characters but they were thrust into main characters.
 

ZehDon

Gold Member
I still feel that Mandolorian will be forgotten like everything else Disney post 1980's in like 10-15 years. Not saying it's bad but it's going to hold up like 20th-century cinema.
I suppose time will tell. If they continue their current trajectory, it has a chance of living on. Of course, it could all go Game of Thrones Season 8 at the last minute too :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 

Ememee

Member
The worst thing I can say about TLJ is that it left me absolutely apathetic after watching it for the first time.
 
The best Disney-era Star Wars film. Possibly the best since the OT too.

IMO if you read Colin Trovorrows script treatment for episode 9, it really did feel like they had a plan but Disney higher ups weren't confident in it. No idea who because it seems was better than what we got.

Dual Of The Fates getting shot down will forever be Disney's greatest sin for me.

Because OHHHHHHH, God forbid we have a black man leading a rebellion, laser guillotines, and a Nazi 2nd in command committing seppuku (with Mace Windu's saber nonetheless).
 

Neil Young

Member
Movie stunk. They could've salvaged SOMETHING if that was Luke at the end and not his ghost. Why not have him take down a walker like old times with R2 in the back beeping away? Why not have him face Kylo and go out like Obi Wan, sacrificing himself to buy the others time to escape? Poetry it rhymes etc. Nah, ghost and he fucking falls over like a cunt. Also, the Holdo maneuver ruined the franchise. Why have ANY weapon if that is a thing? Million to one my balls, they used it in the last one.
 
The movie has something for everybody

Top notch fight choreograpy that rivals The Dark Knight Rises!
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Opera Alien yelling at the camera
ubbla_mollbro_sw.jpg



Gary Oldman screaming
will-luke-and-leia-reunite-in-the-last-jedi-weve-got-a-good-feeling.gif

"EVERYONE!"

Mark loves it and doesn't think Rian is a retarded dominos manager who tripped and fell into directing
LimpShrillBongo-max-1mb.gif
 
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Paltheos

Member
The worst Star Wars movie. I disagree with the notion that it's a disastrous followup to the TFA, as if that were a good movie. I don't know if anyone's specifically made that argument in this topic but I have heard the expression before. Many of the elements in TLJ that make it a bad movie were in TFA. Just dialed up. Inappropriate slapstick not supported by editing or the soundtrack or just plain being bad (the sitcomesque exchange between Finn and Han Solo on the Falcon, Rey and Finn bickering before that), tonally overextreme behavior (Kylo Ren throwing a temper tantrum and slashing a control panel to pieces in front of a subordinate, in the context of an ostensibly disciplined military organization).
 
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