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The Last of Us 2 is "one of the greatest games ever made", according to The Russo Brothers

Ellery

Member
No I mean.if the thread was made about a game, people will talk about it. Wanting everything said to be positive is like wanting a safe space lol.

Nope, I can bitch all I want about cinematic trends in games. And you are free to ignore that, it's just as easy as me ignoring the game if I wanted to.

Whether you like them or not, the cinematic push is not enhancing the actual game part of games.

I actually disagree and find the "game" part of my games to be more fun because of the cinematic or tension building event at times.

MGS4 overdid it for me. Uncharted 4, TLOU2, Resident Evil VII, 2Remake3 Remake, God of War 2018 are all perfectly fine for me and I like them better because they have narrative elements that otherwise would look clunky in a pure game setting.
 

Topher

Gold Member
No I mean.if the thread was made about a game, people will talk about it. Wanting everything said to be positive is like wanting a safe space lol.

Nope, I can bitch all I want about cinematic trends in games. And you are free to ignore that, it's just as easy as me ignoring the game if I wanted to.

Whether you like them or not, the cinematic push is not enhancing the actual game part of games.

Then start a thread to discuss "cinematic trends" how they are "not enhancing" games. You can use TLOU 2 as an example. This isn't that thread though. And you don't even have legit criticism here. Calling TLOU 2 "shock porn" is just absurd, dude. If you want to discuss what you don't like about the game then at least use valid descriptions.
 
Then start a thread to discuss "cinematic trends" how they are "not enhancing" games. You can use TLOU 2 as an example. This isn't that thread though. And you don't even have legit criticism here. Calling TLOU 2 "shock porn" is just absurd, dude. If you want to discuss what you don't like about the game then at least use valid descriptions.
I don't have to do anything. Move on if you don't like it.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Move on if you don't like it.

irony GIF
 

Three

Member
What's funny is that I never see this banal back and forth on gameplay vs movie for games such as The Quarry, A Plague Tale or any other games where "movie" far outweigh gameplay by a greater degree. Hell almost any other single player game. I wonder why?

The gameplay in TLOU2 is fantastic, don't let other people bullshit you.
 

Fuz

Member
Yeah, those guys really look like consumed gamers.

Surely they know what they're talking about and it's not just pathetic advertising.


(Do I need to put an /s ?)
 
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Three

Member
You're still here bro, Sony ponies making it about a brand rather than the game.

I guarantee you wouldn't be in here if it was 3rd party.

See you in the next thread lol
If this is about "cinematic trends in games" why aren't you in the third party game threads shitting them up. The Quarry, A Plague Tale, What Remains of Edith Finch, you have plenty of choices to make your stand.
 

Topher

Gold Member
If this is about "cinematic trends in games" why aren't you in the third party game threads shitting them up. The Quarry, A Plague Tale, What Remains of Edith Finch, you have plenty of choices to make your stand.

There is a Tomb Raider thread getting a lot of attention right now.......except from one guy in particular.


mad city fox GIF by Gotham
 
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So now we've shifted to "It's not an interactive game.... because it's not one of the biggest games in the industry"... wut??!?

Why have you fundamentally changed your argument? What are you even arguing now?
My position has remained consistent throughout, but I'll reiterate...

You're saying "I love TLoU2. How dare you say it's bad."

I'm saying "I'm not interested in personal preferences. TLoU2 is a bad game because it doesn't understand what makes games special. Instead, it tries to be discount TV/Film. That's not strategically sound."

In other words, it isn't competitive design. Naughty Dog had every advantage in the book and...

1. At the very least, it didn't do any better than TLoU1 commercially despite costing significantly more.

2. Competitors are lapping it in the market.

3. It limped so much that Naughty Dog will never make another TLoU2 style game again.

The fact that you like it and I don't is immaterial. It's a waste of resources that can't compete. Extinctions don't typically happen overnight. Linear, story based single player games are still coming. They just won't be as frequent or with the same budget. AA is their new home.
 

Clear

Member
I think you'd struggle to find anyone with actual experience in the industry to be less than super impressed by ND's efforts. You might fault it for being a product of extreme crunch culture, but the result is the result.

Abby's campaign in TLOU2 is fucking brilliant irrespective of your feeling for that character and her place within the franchise as a whole.

People need to wrap their heads around that its ok to dislike stuff that is objectively wonderful or high-achieving only so long as you are honest about giving credit where its due. The point being what are you attempting to demonstrate by giving your opinion? Are you just expressing your personal perceptions and values or are trying to make other people go along and say black is white or vice-versa!

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people on forums seem to believe that telling people that they are categorically wrong for liking a thing that they liked is going to change hearts and minds! Its not a persuasive or productive line of argument!
 
Its THE best, not one of.

Absolutely outclasses every other game in the medium at everything it sets out to do

Really? You mean to tell me that the writing, characterization, and score is better than the greats like Baldur’s Gate I and II? PlaneScape Torment? Final Fantasy IX? Mother 3? It’s gameplay is better than Thief? Metal Gear Solid V? Let’s cut the hyperbole here.

I get that you love this game, and I am glad that you do - but let’s be real here. It isn’t the “best in class“ in anything aside from *maybe* animations and the accessibility features and even then that won’t be for very long. Hell, it could be argued that there are games today that have beaten the quality of animations.
 
I think you'd struggle to find anyone with actual experience in the industry to be less than super impressed by ND's efforts. You might fault it for being a product of extreme crunch culture, but the result is the result.

Abby's campaign in TLOU2 is fucking brilliant irrespective of your feeling for that character and her place within the franchise as a whole.

People need to wrap their heads around that its ok to dislike stuff that is objectively wonderful or high-achieving only so long as you are honest about giving credit where its due. The point being what are you attempting to demonstrate by giving your opinion? Are you just expressing your personal perceptions and values or are trying to make other people go along and say black is white or vice-versa!

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people on forums seem to believe that telling people that they are categorically wrong for liking a thing that they liked is going to change hearts and minds! Its not a persuasive or productive line of argument!

Just as much as people need to wrap their heads around that its ok to like stuff that objectively is flawed.

The irony of your statement is that you do the *same exact thing* to people who state clearly and presently why they dislike the game, but expect decry them for doing so, but expect to be treated specially for liking it.
 

Clear

Member
Just as much as people need to wrap their heads around that its ok to like stuff that objectively is flawed.

The irony of your statement is that you do the *same exact thing* to people who state clearly and presently why they dislike the game, but expect decry them for doing so, but expect to be treated specially for liking it

Nope, there's a huge difference between say, encouraging folks to appreciate "diamonds in the dirt", and telling them that they are wrong for not being disgusted by the dirt covering their "treasure"!

That make sense to you?

The former makes a proposition that if you can look past all the shortcomings there may be something of real value there for you.

The latter just says you are unclean or stupid for getting your hands dirty in the pursuit.

One of these things is altruistic, the other is just arrogant and judgemental.
 

Rivet

Gold Member
I agree it's one of the best games ever (though I still prefer the first game like most people) but the story was so dark it's not for everybody.

I think they could have written something different, a bit more hopeful, but I respect their choice.
 
Nope, there's a huge difference between say, encouraging folks to appreciate "diamonds in the dirt", and telling them that they are wrong for not being disgusted by the dirt covering their "treasure"!

That make sense to you?

The former makes a proposition that if you can look past all the shortcomings there may be something of real value there for you.

The latter just says you are unclean or stupid for getting your hands dirty in the pursuit.

One of these things is altruistic, the other is just arrogant and judgemental.

So entering a thread to whine about “haters” and dismissing any critical opinions of the title as such is not arrogant and judgemental to you?
 

Topher

Gold Member
Really? You mean to tell me that the writing, characterization, and score is better than the greats like Baldur’s Gate I and II? PlaneScape Torment? Final Fantasy IX? Mother 3? It’s gameplay is better than Thief? Metal Gear Solid V? Let’s cut the hyperbole here.

That's not hyperbole. It is just a subjective opinion. As is yours that the games you listed are better for whatever reason.
 

Represent.

Member
Really? You mean to tell me that the writing, characterization, and score is better than the greats like Baldur’s Gate I and II? PlaneScape Torment? Final Fantasy IX? Mother 3? It’s gameplay is better than Thief? Metal Gear Solid V? Let’s cut the hyperbole here.

I get that you love this game, and I am glad that you do - but let’s be real here. It isn’t the “best in class“ in anything aside from *maybe* animations and the accessibility features and even then that won’t be for very long. Hell, it could be argued that there are games today that have beaten the quality of animations.
Yes, by far actually.

Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid.. Great writing? :messenger_loudly_crying:

I could also go on a rant about the games combat being unmatched, graphics, sound design, voice acting, the level of polish, the production, the accessibility, the writing, the gameplay, the animation, the OVERALL product being absolutely untouched. And I don't even think there will be a good argument against any of my claims.
 
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Clear

Member
So entering a thread to whine about “haters” and dismissing any critical opinions of the title as such is not arrogant and judgemental to you?

Criticism is fine, just have the class to add or at least imply the caveats "in my opinion" and "your mileage may vary".

Above all else don't try and tell people they were "wrong" for enjoying a piece of entertainment that you didn't. You're not going to persuade them when your opinion has nothing to offer for the person on the receiving end. Do you expect to be congratulated for invalidating their actual experience of playing? They are just going to think you're just another mouthy internet dickhead.

The opposite works differently because if you come to the same topic with an attitude that you have found something good and valuable in there that others may have missed or not considered, there is at least potential for their benefit in that.
 

D3SCHA1N

Member
I just want to know why the gray man was the most expensive movie ever made. it was at best an average / ok action movie, leaning more on the 'not so good' end of the spectrum, but nothing about it screamed this movie cost more to create than any of the recent bond flicks. I guess ryan gosling and chris evans must've just seen massive paydays or something.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
I just want to know why the gray man was the most expensive movie ever made. it was at best an average / ok action movie, leaning more on the 'not so good' end of the spectrum, but nothing about it screamed this movie cost more to create than any of the recent bond flicks. I guess ryan gosling and chris evans must've just seen massive paydays or something.
Gotta launder money somewhere. ;)

Arts and Entertainment are some of the most notorious.
 
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Clear

Member
Gotta launder money somewhere. ;)

Arts and Entertainment are some of the most notorious.

When this gets brought up I can't help but feel sad for all the 70's/80's HK action/kung fu movies that have been lost to time due to them existing purely to launder mob cash, leaving noone to handle their rights.
 

Woggleman

Member
I think it's time people stop using the word cinematic to downplay games. Being cinematically focused (animation, character) is not a negative. It enhances the game and its gameplay. Saying TLOU: P1/2 don't have gameplay or aren't really games due to their cinematic focus is disingenuous.
When a game manages to marry cinematics and great gameplay such as TLOU 1 and 2 it is truly a great experience.
 

Putonahappyface

Gold Member
Nice to see this game still getting praised. I've played a shit load of games over the years and I can count on one hand how many of them I've replayed, and the TLOU2 is one of them. I'm genuinely excited with anticipation for the third installment!

Also pmsl at those getting emotionally menstrual over a game. There are loads of games on playstation/xbox that I deem a shower gravy shit, but I don't shitpost and bait people in those thread's!

 
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My position has remained consistent throughout, but I'll reiterate...

You're saying "I love TLoU2. How dare you say it's bad."

No. But nice try with the silly strawman.

I'm saying "I'm not interested in personal preferences. TLoU2 is a bad game because it doesn't understand what makes games special. Instead, it tries to be discount TV/Film. That's not strategically sound."

You're clearly only interested in your own personal preferences. As if you're the only gamer in the world whose opinions matter.

It reeks of narcissism and a towering sense of hubris.

In other words, it isn't competitive design. Naughty Dog had every advantage in the book and...

And yet the game sells multiple tens of millions of copies and nets every gaming award under the sun.

They must be doing something competitive, even if it's not to your personal tastes. You must be able to be honest enough to admit that much.

1. At the very least, it didn't do any better than TLoU1 commercially despite costing significantly more.

It hasn't been on the market as long as TLOU1 so the comparison is dumb.

2. Competitors are lapping it in the market.

So is Naughty Dog with TLOU2.

3. It limped so much that Naughty Dog will never make another TLoU2 style game again.

Because Men_in_Boxes says so? You're delusional if you think TLOU as an IP will be abandoned by Sony and ND.

Heck, there's a fucking TV show on the way.

The fact that you like it and I don't is immaterial. It's a waste of resources that can't compete. Extinctions don't typically happen overnight. Linear, story based single player games are still coming. They just won't be as frequent or with the same budget. AA is their new home.

The fact that I like it and you don't is immaterial, yes. I agree.

The fact that the game won multiple awards, sold tens of millions of units and continues to sell, is what will guarantee a sequel, as well as guarantee many more dev continuing to develop single-player cinematic games, because there is a market for it.

The fact that the market for MP battle royale games is much bigger is irrelevant. It doesn't in any way erase the existing market for games like TLOU.
 
No. But nice try with the silly strawman.



You're clearly only interested in your own personal preferences. As if you're the only gamer in the world whose opinions matter.

It reeks of narcissism and a towering sense of hubris.



And yet the game sells multiple tens of millions of copies and nets every gaming award under the sun.

They must be doing something competitive, even if it's not to your personal tastes. You must be able to be honest enough to admit that much.



It hasn't been on the market as long as TLOU1 so the comparison is dumb.



So is Naughty Dog with TLOU2.



Because Men_in_Boxes says so? You're delusional if you think TLOU as an IP will be abandoned by Sony and ND.

Heck, there's a fucking TV show on the way.



The fact that I like it and you don't is immaterial, yes. I agree.

The fact that the game won multiple awards, sold tens of millions of units and continues to sell, is what will guarantee a sequel, as well as guarantee many more dev continuing to develop single-player cinematic games, because there is a market for it.

The fact that the market for MP battle royale games is much bigger is irrelevant. It doesn't in any way erase the existing market for games like TLOU.

A few things...

1. PlayStation became a multiplayer focused company because of Fortnite in 2018/2019, not because of TLoU2. Awards mean very little next to gross profits and engagement numbers.

2. When I say "Naughty Dog will never make another TLoU2 style game", I'm not referring to IP. I'm referring to the game design. Open world single player games do demonstrably better than linear story focused games. You can't read the market and say otherwise. If TLoU3 comes, it'll be open world. Why? Because open world gives players more choice. Player choice is the mediums biggest strength.

3. I'll repeat this one more time to really drive my point home. Linear single player games aren't going away anytime soon. AAA linear single player games are on their way out. The market has spoken.

4. I am completely objective when it comes to this discussion. I have no dog in this fight.
 
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