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[Afro Republican]

Many people have given reasons for why Sega ended up dropping out of the industry and things turning to shambles. But many people don't realize that Sega could have rode most of those reasons out if they had money. In fact the main reason why many of Sega's panic decisions happened is because they invested money into things that had no return in investment.

1. The Nomad was an expensive portable and was doomed from the start due to Sega fumbling the Genesis and it starting to collapse in sales in several parts of the world. Especially in NA, and it ended up being a failed investment. They didn't even try to salvage it.

2. The 32X was greenlit by both SOA and SOJ as a stop gap to counter the jaguar but they never added a lot of support or promoted the 32X well FORM THE START, which naver made sense, and basically had it over shadowed by the Saturn. This is the opposite of the Sega CD people like to commonly falsely blame for Sega's future problems.

3. A good chunk of 3D Sega arcade games flopped in the arcade across many of their machines.

4. The Model 3 was a ridiculous investment that Sega would not only not make their money back with, but in just two years realize they could make a cheaper and more powerful alternative. Which had to make some execs mad since the Model 3 was supposed to be some long lasting powerhouse. Even PC was starting to trade some advantages over it around 98. It wasn't as popular as the Model 2 and generally hurt Segas bottom line. The graphics looked good though at the time I'll admit, that doesn't pay the bills however.

5. The Saturn was made to be a 2D powerhouse with enough 3D to beat the Jaguar. On paper. However, Sega had slapped another VDP into the system once PSX (and 3DO to a lesser extend called "the Panasonic" in interviews") and people seem to forget that doing that raised the cost of the Saturn considerably. They were already in a range of not making much off the Saturn, but when the PSX and 3DO dropped prices and Sega had to drop the price they were taking hits.

6. DreamCast in NA took the place of the Saturn to stop the bleeding money with a successful launch. In japan Not only did the DC not have anywhere near as a successful launch. But the Saturn, which was doing well, was dialed back to push the DC in terms of full support. Effectively making the Saturn stop generating whatever profits it was getting in Japan and replacing it with losses.

7. Sega invested in several games to be the next Sonic in first party but it never happened. Late Genesis didn't have another big revenue generating franchise, same with late GG, when the Saturn came, it couldn't create another big franchise either. By the time the DreamCast came around it was too late. Sonic was basically, for consoles at least, the only "BIG" SEGA hit that was first party. (Outside VF in japan)

If Sega actually had money coming from somewhere, they could have taken the retailer issues, the SOA-SOJ infighting and other issues. The simple reason why Sega fell apart is because they threw money into thing without trying to find away to get a return back. they just wrote off bad plays like they had 400 billion in cash. They didn't and it showed. What's interesting is that most of the biggest mistakes were in the same time frame.

 

[Alexios]

Maybe cite some sources? Which of their 3D arcade games cost a lot and didn't make returns for example? You basically just said everything they dabbled in was a failure, lol.

And yeah it's known that DC did well, just not well enough to save them.

 

[Afro Republican]

Which of their 3D arcade games cost a lot and didn't make returns for example? You basically just said everything they dabbled in was a failure, lol.

And yeah it's known that DC did well, just not well enough to save them.

DC did well in NA but not in Asia.

I also didn't say cost a lot I said some 3D games flopped in the arcades unless you think games like Wingwar, Motoraid and Dynamite cop were as popular as Virtua Racing, Rally and Virtua Cop.

 

[BANGS]

SEGA's entire strategy throughout the 90s was throw everything at the wall and see what sticks, regardless of how much money they lose. It wasn't a sustainable strategy by any means but it's also what made them so popular and successful. The Dreamcast was their chance to come back down to earth and still make crazy games but also make much wiser decisions, unfortunately their timing was terrible and people were way more interested in waiting for the PS2 than buy another SEGA console that would just die in 2 years. Dreamcast did everything right and deserved to succeed, but SEGA's reputation destroyed all their best efforts...

 

[Alexios]

If they didn't cost a lot, they didn't need to be as successful as their top stuff though, and wouldn't be the reason they failed. What company only makes successful products, lol. I was just curious for sources showing exactly what games were the reason they failed as your title says. This is probably the first time I see their earlier arcades blamed. I'm sure they had flops but did they outweigh their success stories? Plus, hindsight is 20/20, they went through experimental times and pioneered many things we take for granted, if they just played it safe at the time they may have never done any good in that case too.

 

[Afro Republican]

If they didn't cost a lot, they didn't need to be as successful as their top stuff though, .

That notion doesn't work years later when you're losing money and desperately made a hit. If I lose 10 dollars but some games made 5 i still lost $5. Of course that's IF they didn't cost a lot. Someone had to be making decent money somewhere for Sega to survive and Sega wasn't able to do so. sadly.

 

[SlashBringingHasher]

arcade was pointless to invest in past the mid 90s. they fucked up their hardware beyond return with the saturn 32x and the sega cd.

we get this thread every week

 

[Afro Republican]

arcade was pointless to invest in past the mid 90s. they fucked up their hardware beyond return with the saturn 32x and the sega cd.

we get this thread every week

Well one issue is blaming the Sega CD when it didn't have much impact on the future. Not sure why it continued to be cited.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Nintendo had a war chest and a handheld business to keep them afloat during the hard years. SEGA squandered their advantages which emptied out their coffers. Yes, arcades were diminishing but SEGA remained a key player right up to the end with their racing games and fighting games. Yes, they made mistakes during the 90s by pushing too much hardware but no one had really figured out if that was a good idea or not.

As an aside, SEGA CD wasn't the mistake. 32X was. Skipping the 32X and making the Saturn backwards compatible with the CD could've changed the company's fortunes.

 

[Afro Republican]

Yes, arcades were diminishing but SEGA remained a key player right up to the end with their racing games and fighting games. Yes, they made mistakes during the 90s by pushing too much hardware but no one had really figured out if that was a good idea or not.

What do you mean no one knew it was a good idea? There's a reason no one else chases Sega down a bit. Midway could release a game as successful or more so and still look graphically impressive without throwing money down a hole on arcade hardware that cost 5x the average.

As for your SEGA CD BC comment, the issue with the Saturn was how it was originally designed and its reaction to the PSX and "the panasonic" to a lesser extent. Sega likely still would have panicked and through in the extra processor making the Saturn a loss machine and likely still would have had a similar early launch to deal with the low prices of both.

 

[NintendosBooger]

I think the fundamental issue behind their failure was miscommunication and even toxic relationship between SoJ and SoA. One hand didn't know what the other was doing, which was fatal considering America and Japan were two of the biggest console markets at the time. I believe that relationship was a signal to Nintendo and why NoA has been nothing more but a glorified localization branch since Minoru Arakawa left. And the only reason it was anything more than that back then was because Yamauchi's son-in-law was running it.

 

[cireza]

Sega had profitable years every year until the Dreamcast.

 

[Afro Republican]

I think the fundamental issue behind their failure was miscommunication and even toxic relationship between SoJ and SoA. One hand didn't know what the other was doing, which was fatal considering America and Japan were two of the biggest console markets at the time. I believe that relationship was a signal to Nintendo and why NoA has been nothing more but a glorified localization branch since Minoru Arakawa left. And the only reason it was anything more than that back then was because Yamauchi's son-in-law was running it.

The 32X was a joint collaboration between the two as well as the model 3.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

What do you mean no one knew it was a good idea?

Looking back, we know that too many peripherals will split the market. However, during that time period that was not conventional wisdom yet.

There's a reason no one else chases Sega down a bit. Midway could release a game as successful or more so and still look graphically impressive without throwing money down a hole on arcade hardware that cost 5x the average.

As for your SEGA CD BC comment, the issue with the Saturn was how it was originally designed and its reaction to the PSX and "the panasonic" to a lesser extent. Sega likely still would have panicked and through in the extra processor making the Saturn a loss machine and likely still would have had a similar early launch to deal with the low prices of both.

Sure, their panic played a big role in that system's failure. I'm just pointing out that backwards compatibility with the old games would've extended the viability/lifespan of the SEGA CD attachment and also made the Saturn a more attractive upgrade.

 

[Afro Republican]

Looking back, we know that too many peripherals will split the market. However, during that time period that was not conventional wisdom yet.


Sure, their panic played a big role in that system's failure. I'm just pointing out that backwards compatibility with the old games would've extended the viability/lifespan of the SEGA CD attachment and also made the Saturn a more attractive upgrade.

I have both, but I haven't verified this yet, however I heard one reason why Sega CD BC wasn't a thing on the Saturn, reportedly, was because the games were segmented and loaded in a way specifically for the 1x disc drive of the CD, and that a faster CD would actually causes errors or crash the games. Hence why most Sega CD games were not ported.

of course i can just look at a CD games inside to see that's true, but that's what I've heard. Though the rumor does make a good point that a lot of Sega CD games were not ported, but I'm not sure i buy the excuse though, at some point i'll need to look into the Sega CD code to see what their talking about. If it's there.

 

[Iaterain]

I'm more into a conspiracy theory that Sega was forced to left the console market in order to open space for Microsoft.
The home console market was monopolised by Japanese companies until Microsoft entered the battle.

 

[xellos2099alpha]

Well without sega cd there would not be lunar 1 or 2. A past without the Lunar serie...would be unacceptable

 

[StreetsofBeige]

SEGA's entire strategy throughout the 90s was throw everything at the wall and see what sticks, regardless of how much money they lose. It wasn't a sustainable strategy by any means but it's also what made them so popular and successful. The Dreamcast was their chance to come back down to earth and still make crazy games but also make much wiser decisions, unfortunately their timing was terrible and people were way more interested in waiting for the PS2 than buy another SEGA console that would just die in 2 years. Dreamcast did everything right and deserved to succeed, but SEGA's reputation destroyed all their best efforts...

All in 10 years......

- Tail ends of SMS
- Genesis
- Game Gear
- Sega CD
- Sega Tera PC
- CD-X
- Nomad
- Sega Pico kids thing
- Lots of arcade games
- Some PC games
- 32x
- Saturn
- DC

If they focused only on the bolded stuff (and even then cut out some costs), they would have been in a much better situation. Not saying DC would have succeeded in the long run, but better than calling it quits in early 2000.

 

[Kazza]

1. The Nomad was an expensive portable and was doomed from the start due to Sega fumbling the Genesis and it starting to collapse in sales in several parts of the world. Especially in NA, and it ended up being a failed investment. They didn't even try to salvage it.

The Nomad seems like a lost opportunity to me. Sega had already proven that a handheld based on last-gen console technology could be successful (despite not coming anywhere near Gameboy levels of success, 10 million + sales is pretty decent). If only they had supported it more, and had also given the Megadrive/Nomad more development time post Saturn, just as they did with the Master System/Game Gear post-Megadrive.

2. The 32X was greenlit by both SOA and SOJ as a stop gap to counter the jaguar but they never added a lot of support or promoted the 32X well FORM THE START, which naver made sense, and basically had it over shadowed by the Saturn. This is the opposite of the Sega CD people like to commonly falsely blame for Sega's future problems.

I'm glad that someone has defended the Mega CD, as it gets a lot of undue flak. The 32X however...

Here are two interviews, one with former SoA CEO Tom Kalinski and one with Marketing Director Al Nilsen. In both interviews they state that the Mega CD was necessary for Sega in order for them to learn how to work with CD technology. They also seem quite satisfied with its sales. The 32X is a different story, and neither of them seem pleased that Sega launched that system.

3. A good chunk of 3D Sega arcade games flopped in the arcade across many of their machines.

4. The Model 3 was a ridiculous investment that Sega would not only not make their money back with, but in just two years realize they could make a cheaper and more powerful alternative. Which had to make some execs mad since the Model 3 was supposed to be some long lasting powerhouse. Even PC was starting to trade some advantages over it around 98. It wasn't as popular as the Model 2 and generally hurt Segas bottom line. The graphics looked good though at the time I'll admit, that doesn't pay the bills however.

How much did they invest in Model 3 tech, and how much did they make back?

5. The Saturn was made to be a 2D powerhouse with enough 3D to beat the Jaguar. On paper. However, Sega had slapped another VDP into the system once PSX (and 3DO to a lesser extend called "the Panasonic" in interviews") and people seem to forget that doing that raised the cost of the Saturn considerably. They were already in a range of not making much off the Saturn, but when the PSX and 3DO dropped prices and Sega had to drop the price they were taking hits.

It's an interesting counterfactual to contemplate: what if Sega had stuck to their original plan and released a primarily 2D console in 1994? It would certainly have been cheaper. But wasn't Virtua Fighter the main reason it sold so well in Japan (even outselling the Playstation for a while)? While it would have made the Saturn an amazing retro console (full of 60 fps 2D and super scaler games instead of the often sub-30 fps polygon games), it would also have meant a Saturn without Virtua Fighter, Sega Rally, Resident Evil, Tomb Raider etc. It might not have felt "next-gen" compared to the PS and N64. In that alternate timeline, other versions of ourselves may well be arguing that if only Sega had just beefed up their system with extra 3D capabilities, then it might have been a success.

 

[Kazza]

If Sega actually had money coming from somewhere, they could have taken the retailer issues, the SOA-SOJ infighting and other issues. The simple reason why Sega fell apart is because they threw money into thing without trying to find away to get a return back. they just wrote off bad plays like they had 400 billion in cash. They didn't and it showed. What's interesting is that most of the biggest mistakes were in the same time frame.

I see Sega being like Hannibal, fighting against the Rome of Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft. However many victories they won, they could only afford a couple of defeats, whereas their opponents could absorb much bigger losses.

 

[Raitoningu]

They failed because the superior Playstation trashed them like everyone else

 

[Nikodemos]

The Sega CD is retroactively considered a failure because a) uncompressed music wasn't considered as experience-enhancing as better graphics, especially when routed through crap TV speakers; b) FMVs ended up being mostly terrible with scant exceptions; c) no 'big' games were created to take advantage of the increased storage, and for good reason: writing 300+ MB of code, line by line, by hand, probably in assembler, would have been a sysyphean task by 1991 standards (to contrast, the complete Ultima 7 collection weighs in at 20+22 MB on GOG and that's basically 4 games forming a massive game world).

 

[BANGS]

All in 10 years......

- Tail ends of SMS
- Genesis
- Game Gear
- Sega CD
- Sega Tera PC
- CD-X
- Nomad
- Sega Pico kids thing
- Lots of arcade games
- Some PC games
- 32x
- Saturn
- DC

If they focused only on the bolded stuff (and even then cut out some costs), they would have been in a much better situation. Not saying DC would have succeeded in the long run, but better than calling it quits in early 2000.

Personally I wish they never did the Sega CD and focused more on Pico. Pico was actually kinda cool and could have had legs if they marketed it better. Sega CD was just stupid, since the Genesis wasn't powerful enough to do anything with all that extra data other than really, really shitty FMV games. Sega CD + 32X managed to have enough diesel to do cool things, but at that point you might as well just get a Saturn. Also game gear was garbage and I wish there were better games for it. Imagine if Sega had discovered something like Pokemon first...

 

[Azelover]

They took Sony's bait..

 

[Hanon]

In a alternative reality, with Sony censoring games. Sega would come back to the console market and have their console be the place for uncensored weeb games

 

[Afro Republican]

The Nomad seems like a lost opportunity to me. Sega had already proven that a handheld based on last-gen console technology could be successful (despite not coming anywhere near Gameboy levels of success, 10 million + sales is pretty decent). If only they had supported it more, and had also given the Megadrive/Nomad more development time post Saturn, just as they did with the Master System/Game Gear post-Megadrive.



I'm glad that someone has defended the Mega CD, as it gets a lot of undue flak. The 32X however...

Here are two interviews, one with former SoA CEO Tom Kalinski and one with Marketing Director Al Nilsen. In both interviews they state that the Mega CD was necessary for Sega in order for them to learn how to work with CD technology. They also seem quite satisfied with its sales. The 32X is a different story, and neither of them seem pleased that Sega launched that system.

How much did they invest in Model 3 tech, and how much did they make back?




1. The GG didn't generate much profit, it selling 10 million was the result of lack of Nintendo in Europe for awhile (which quickly switch the other direction within two years) and price cuts. The Nomad even if it came out a year earlier would still be too expensive to sell and would result in Sega risky loss by being forced to cut the price and it still would cost too much. They also couldn't get a big hit on the thing, unlike the gameboy and LYNX.

2. They didn't make anything back, the point of Noami was them figuring out how to make a cheaper arcade machine that was more powerful than the model 3. The model 3 was made with the help of a US government military contract company.

It's an interesting counterfactual to contemplate: what if Sega had stuck to their original plan and released a primarily 2D console in 1994? It would certainly have been cheaper. But wasn't Virtua Fighter the main reason it sold so well in Japan (even outselling the Playstation for a while)?

Saturn didn't sell as well as you think it did.

I would say it would have been better if they kept the original Saturn as it was. The 32X was weaker than the standard saturn which means it still would have been capable of some 3D games like VR and VF even though it wouldn't look as good, while also having a ton of great 2D games and the 2D tech could create games that looked 3D, like the ones on some of the top 2D arcade hardware. It would have given it amazing 2D and decent 3D, at a cheap price, and would have likely had more software available.

Instead the Saturn was losing money WW and in Japan it was doing ok but not great, and by the time the N64 came Sega was at the drawing board, ad by 97 they decided to start pulling back support of the Saturn and replacing it in all regions with the DC. Saturn likely would have done better if they went with the original focus.

I see Sega being like Hannibal, fighting against the Rome of Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft. However many victories they won, they could only afford a couple of defeats, whereas their opponents could absorb much bigger losses.

Nintendo couldn't have took as many losses as Sega without panicking and restructuring the company. Heck, if MS lost anymore money on the first Xbox they likely would have bailed on a successor. Them having a great amount of developer support, as well as selling well (even beating the PS2 in some countries for some months) and being second overall gave them a reason to continue despite the first Xbox being a massive commercial failure in terms of profits.

 

[Afro Republican]

All in 10 years......

- Tail ends of SMS
- Genesis
- Game Gear
- Sega CD
- Sega Tera PC
- CD-X
- Nomad
- Sega Pico kids thing
- Lots of arcade games
- Some PC games
- 32x
- Saturn
- DC

If they focused only on the bolded stuff (and even then cut out some costs), they would have been in a much better situation. Not saying DC would have succeeded in the long run, but better than calling it quits in early 2000.

SMS should have been dropped it was not salvageable at all and only did really well as a cheap machine in the certain markets that didn't generate large profits. Same with the GG, they couldn't get a hit on the thing, and it wasn't very profitable like the GB or LYNX. Sega CD is just as pointless as the release dates in some territories would have extended support of the CD end up running into the launch of the Saturn either way and the original Saturn was a 2D powerhouse that would have made the Sega CD irrelevant.

Lots of arcade games in the 3D era would generate bigger losses than previous flops or small profits. Sega was in no position to increase their output of seeing what stuck to the wall.

And while focusing more on Saturn may have helped a little they still would have done the same pre-launch and after launch moves regardless. 32X panic, Processor because of PSX panic, launch price, and price cut panic.

I'm more into a conspiracy theory that Sega was forced to left the console market in order to open space for Microsoft.
The home console market was monopolised by Japanese companies until Microsoft entered the battle.

3DO, Jaguar, CDTV. CD32, CD-i, Pippin, VIS, GX4000 etc.

 

[stranno]

I'm more into a conspiracy theory that Sega was forced to left the console market in order to open space for Microsoft.
The home console market was monopolised by Japanese companies until Microsoft entered the battle.

They just fucked up the Dreamcast with the Mil-CD vulnerability in late-99. Utopia group released the Boot Disk like four or five months later.

 

[jufonuk]

I remember living all this as a young kid in the arcades sega were untouchable for a while on hardware. Consoles it was insane during the 16 bit and 32 bit wars.

I was for the SNES and N64 bit the Dreamcast was something else man.
My mate was a mega drive owner.

We owned a Saturn together. Speaking of which
The mega cd, Saturn then 32X period was nuts. When the dream cast came out I thought finally sega is doing it right. The hardware in the arcade is the same as the Dreamcast awesome arcade ports etc.

Then when they bowed out dammit Nintendo lost a frienemy that would push them creatively. I don’t give a fuck the creativity during those years from Nintendo and sega was insane it still influences indie devs today.

 

[BANGS]

They just fucked up the Dreamcast with the Mil-CD vulnerability in late-99. Utopia group released the Boot Disk like four or five months later.

Piracy had very little to do with Dreamcast's failure, if anything it was free advertising. That Mil-CD support is actually one of Dreamcast's biggest strengths....

 

[Kazza]

1. The GG didn't generate much profit, it selling 10 million was the result of lack of Nintendo in Europe for awhile (which quickly switch the other direction within two years) and price cuts. The Nomad even if it came out a year earlier would still be too expensive to sell and would result in Sega risky loss by being forced to cut the price and it still would cost too much. They also couldn't get a big hit on the thing, unlike the gameboy and LYNX.

Do you have any source where anyone says it didn't generate a profit? 10+ million is a decent number, and according to segaretro around 390 games were released, so presumably they were selling reasonably well. Just because it was outsold by the Gameboy doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't a success, just as the PSP wasn't a failure because it was outsold by the DS (although the Game Gear wasn't nearly as successful as the PSP). Kalinski seemed pretty happy with it sales performance at least.

The advantage of the Nomad over the GG was the fact that it used Megadrive carts directly, without the need for a converter (as was necessary for play Master System games on the GG). It just didn't seem to be given a proper chance by Sega.

How much did they invest in Model 3 tech, and how much did they make back?

2. They didn't make anything back, the point of Noami was them figuring out how to make a cheaper arcade machine that was more powerful than the model 3. The model 3 was made with the help of a US government military contract company.

I can't find any info online re the success (or otherwise) of the model 3, just this from segaretro:

It was the most powerful game system in its time, an order of magnitude more powerful than PC graphics cards from 1998, which were still producing Model 2 quality graphics, two years years after the Model 3's release.[45] By 2000, the Sega Model 2 & 3 had sold over 200,000 *arcade systems worldwide,[46] making them some of the best-selling arcade game boards of all time. At around $15,000 each (for the Model 2, with the Model 3 costing higher), this amounts to at least over $3 billion revenue from cabinet sales, equivalent to over $5 billion as of 2017.

Sounds pretty positive, although it does bunch the model 2 and 3 together. Still, model 3 did have the following games, which I imagine included a few which did pretty well:

Step 1.5

• Scud Race / Super GT (1996)
• Le Mans 24 (1997)
• Scud Race Plus (1997)
• The Lost World: Jurassic Park (1997)
• The Lost World: Jurassic Park Special (1997)
• Virtua Striker 2 (1997)
• Virtua Striker 2 Version '98 (1998)

Step 2.0

• Harley Davidson & L.A. Riders (1997)
• Fighting Vipers 2 (1998)
• Sega Rally 2 (1998)
• Ski Champ (1998)
• Virtua Striker 2 (1997)
• Virtua Striker 2 Version '98 (1998)
• Virtua Striker 2 Version '99 (1999)
• Virtua Striker 2 Version '99.1 (1999)
• Virtual-On Oratorio Tangram (1998)

Step 2.1

• Daytona USA 2 (1998)
• Daytona USA 2: Power Edition (1998)
• Dirt Devils (1998)
• L.A. Machineguns (1998)
• Star Wars Trilogy Arcade (1998)
• The Ocean Hunter (1998)

Saturn didn't sell as well as you think it did.

I would say it would have been better if they kept the original Saturn as it was. The 32X was weaker than the standard saturn which means it still would have been capable of some 3D games like VR and VF even though it wouldn't look as good, while also having a ton of great 2D games and the 2D tech could create games that looked 3D, like the ones on some of the top 2D arcade hardware. It would have given it amazing 2D and decent 3D, at a cheap price, and would have likely had more software available.

Instead the Saturn was losing money WW and in Japan it was doing ok but not great, and by the time the N64 came Sega was at the drawing board, ad by 97 they decided to start pulling back support of the Saturn and replacing it in all regions with the DC. Saturn likely would have done better if they went with the original focus.

How do you know how much I think the Saturn sold? iirc, the figure was a little under 10 million.

It's hard to know if the cheaper price would have been enough to offset the weaker 3D, but it's interesting to speculate on. Although it could have handled the likes of VF1 and Virtua Racing, I don't think it would have fared so well with Daytona, Sega Rally and VF2 (even the 60fps Saturn port of that was super impressive). It would have been against Sega's philosophy of the time to be in the market with the weakest console (not including the Jaguar and 3DO).

Nintendo couldn't have took as many losses as Sega without panicking and restructuring the company. Heck, if MS lost anymore money on the first Xbox they likely would have bailed on a successor. Them having a great amount of developer support, as well as selling well (even beating the PS2 in some countries for some months) and being second overall gave them a reason to continue despite the first Xbox being a massive commercial failure in terms of profits.

If you look at this graph (from Wiki), it seems that Sega didn't actually fall in to the red profit wise until around the beginning of the Dreamcast. Sony, Nintendo and MS are/have all been capable of going a few years like that, but Sega wasn't.

 

[Nikodemos]

Sega's handhelds were always excessively over-ambitious for the technological capabilities of the time. A color, backlit screen in 1991 was amazing, but needing a car battery to run it for more than 30 minutes wasn't.

 

[Mexen]

Maybe cite some sources? .

This.

 

[Nikodemos]

I remember some threads regarding Sega, their internal struggles, their hardware etc. from around 3-4 years ago. However, for some reason, all the search function returns are 10-year old threads.

 

[Kazza]

Sega's handhelds were always excessively over-ambitious for the technological capabilities of the time. A color, backlit screen in 1991 was amazing, but needing a car battery to run it for more than 30 minutes wasn't.

That bolded part could describe a lot of what Sega did (the handhelds, Sega Channel, Mega CD...). It was part of what made them great (as well as what caused them problems).

 

[cireza]

This thread should have been titled :

Guy with no sources rewrites history as he sees fit.

 

[Nikodemos]

That bolded part could describe a lot of what Sega did (the handhelds, Sega Channel, Mega CD...). It was part of what made them great (as well as what caused them problems).

Mega CD wasn't that much of a stretch. The PC Engine/TurboGrafx had a CD-ROM add-on, and even Nintendo was working on one (and boy, how did that one turn out...). It was actually a relatively safe bet for them (ironically, except in the West, where people still didn't own that many CDs in the late '80s, due to the prevalence of casette piracy). And the Sega Channel, while extremely impressive for its capabilities, was actually not the first broadcasted games channel. Its issues weren't technical, but strategic: it was launched way too late (just before SoJ announced they're ceasing 1st party support of the Genesis) and it had high subscription cost, due to broadcasting network pricing policies of the time.

 

[Kazza]

Mega CD wasn't that much of a stretch. The PC Engine/TurboGrafx had a CD-ROM add-on, and even Nintendo was working on one (and boy, how did that one turn out...). It was actually a relatively safe bet for them (ironically, except in the West, where people still didn't own that many CDs in the late '80s, due to the prevalence of casette piracy). And the Sega Channel, while extremely impressive for its capabilities, was actually not the first broadcasted games channel. Its issues weren't technical, but strategic: it was launched way too late (just before SoJ announced they're ceasing 1st party support of the Genesis) and it had high subscription cost, due to broadcasting network pricing policies of the time.

Fair points. I suppose you could also argue that the Lynx was more advanced than the GG too (in some ways, at least).

Does anyone know how much a regular CD player was in 1992/93 (when the Mega CD launched in the West)? It seems to be a common perception that the built-in DVD player helped shift PS2s, it's a shame it didn't have a similar effect on Sega's add-on. I remember that it was the first CD player in my house. I hooked it up to our old double cassette hi-fi system. It was great playing music (and games) using the big speakers!

 

[Kazza]

This thread should have been titled :

Guy with no sources rewrites history as he sees fit.

I haven't been able to find any sources which back up the claims made in the OP, but Afro Republican does sound pretty confident in his assertions. Hopefully he can come back and put a bit of meat on them bones!

 

[Nikodemos]

Does anyone know how much a regular CD player was in 1992/93 (when the Mega CD launched in the West)? It seems to be a common perception that the built-in DVD player helped shift PS2s, it's a shame it didn't have a similar effect on Sega's add-on. I remember that it was the first CD player in my house. I hooked it up to our old double cassette hi-fi system. It was great playing music (and games) using the big speakers!

Around 1993 they were relatively cheap. After all, the audio CD had been launched nearly a decade prior. By comparison, the DVD as a format was barely 3 years old when Sony decided to thunder into the market with the cheapest all-in-one DVD player.

 

[Straight Edge]

A picture is worth a 1000 add on accessories.

 

[RoboFu]

The 32x was just a horrible design as well. It wasn’t meant to do 2d that well. It could only process one layer on top of what the genesis itself was rendering and it didn’t do that very well.

Putting more effort into their in cart 3d chip would have made more sense.

But really the fumble was the split between sos and son during the Saturn development and marketing.

 

[Luffytubby]

Whatever happened to SEGAs sponsorship of Arsenal? I remember Dreamcast and SEGA adorned the Jerseys in the 90s. Did that turn out to be a favorable marketing practice?

 

[Kazza]

Whatever happened to SEGAs sponsorship of Arsenal? I remember Dreamcast and SEGA adorned the Jerseys in the 90s. Did that turn out to be a favorable marketing practice?

As both a Sega fanboy and a Spurs supporter, that sponsorship deal left me in a very conflicted state of mind back in the day.

 

[MiguelItUp]

I was just talking to one of my coworkers yesterday about how much I missed SEGA! We talked about how Dreamcast was so ahead of its time, and how we missed having so many 1st party SEGA titles.

I really, really, REALLY wish SEGA would do more with the 1st party titles. Call it nostalgia, or whatever, but if done right I'd be ALL over their 1st party titles. I wish they'd make a good wanna-be Smash title with all of their characters or something similar... Sonic Racing Transformed was phenomenal, if we're never gonna get new SEGA hardware, it'd be great to get more titles that celebrated those IPs.

I just miss SEGA.

 

[Afro Republican]

Do you have any source where anyone says it didn't generate a profit? 10+ million is a decent number, and according to segaretro around 390 games were released, so presumably they were selling reasonably well. Just because it was outsold by the Gameboy doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't a success, just as the PSP wasn't a failure because it was outsold by the DS (although the Game Gear wasn't nearly as successful as the PSP). Kalinski seemed pretty happy with it sales performance at least.

The advantage of the Nomad over the GG was the fact that it used Megadrive carts directly, without the need for a converter (as was necessary for play Master System games on the GG). It just didn't seem to be given a proper chance by Sega.



I can't find any info online re the success (or otherwise) of the model 3, just this from segaretro:

Sounds pretty positive, although it does bunch the model 2 and 3 together. Still, model 3 did have the following games, which I imagine included a few which did pretty well:

How do you know how much I think the Saturn sold? iirc, the figure was a little under 10 million.

It's hard to know if the cheaper price would have been enough to offset the weaker 3D, but it's interesting to speculate on. Although it could have handled the likes of VF1 and Virtua Racing, I don't think it would have fared so well with Daytona, Sega Rally and VF2 (even the 60fps Saturn port of that was super impressive). It would have been against Sega's philosophy of the time to be in the market with the weakest console (not including the Jaguar and 3DO).



If you look at this graph (from Wiki), it seems that Sega didn't actually fall in to the red profit wise until around the beginning of the Dreamcast. Sony, Nintendo and MS are/have all been capable of going a few years like that, but Sega wasn't.

1. That's not how profits work however, you have to make enough money to have some in your pocket and Sega didn't get much real profit from the Game Gear, if the GG even generated half as much profit as the Gameboy, they would have been able to handle a few of their missteps but what the GG gave them was basically pennies compared to what they actually needed. Also keep in mind the GG couldn't get a killer app either, they didn't have a Tetris or half a Tetris, let alone Pokemon. Even Atari put more effort promoting Klax than Sgea did columns, I'm not sure they let that game just kind of blow with the wind considering the GG needed to make it known it had addicting puzzle games. By 1996 Sega was already in trouble remember that.

The Nomad was too late, the Genesis was fumbling, it was not longer as hot as it was, and the Nomad was too expensive. Pls iirc it was only made for one region initially which would have limited its success if it were to be one.

2. The whole point of Naomi was to create a cost efficient arcade board to replace the model 3 and deal with the decline in the arcades and that's in almost every book or Sega fan site about it, in fact I believe Sega 16 posted newspaper scan.. The model 3, along with being highly priced, was also released when arcades were declining in many regions and when operators were putting out good looking arcade games by cheaper systems (time crisis, San Francisco Rush). Model 3 was not in a climate where it would get the support or sales of the model 2. Remember, by 1996 Sega was in no position to lose anymore money, so by 1998 they were already in fire, if they were making money from any division then they wouldn't have had to finance.

3. As for the Saturn, keep in mind that it released in 1994 jp, 1995 in NA. If you look at some of the more impressive 32X titles, original Saturn could do those better, that along with crazy pseudo-3D 2d games as well as well animated traditional 2D games, especially of the action variety, Sega likely would have done way better. Especially since it would have likely been cheaper than the PSX, and the PSX in its 94 and 95 launches were not the best at that. By adding a processor, surprising retailers, and making the system cost more initially, they basically hurt support from transferring from the Genesis to the Saturn, and they put themselves in a position where if they wanted to stand a chance they would have to take losses.

Sure Sony likely still would have won, but you'd have Sega selling more than 1-2 million in NA and countries in Europe if that. Plus, A fully funded Dreamcast would have been the result.

4. Red has nothing to do with it, it's the fact Sega was losing money (your chart actually shows this though it's not entirely accurate). You also have to consider that Sega made themselves way too big and SOJ wanted to expand even more. Sega had several japanese and western studios for consoles, a big arcade division, a failed attempt at a PC and entry into the educational marker, dev teams for portables, and Sega made a small attempt in Asia at trying to be a portable electronic maker (Sega branded cassette player etc.) they just were never in the position to do any of this and its really unfortunate.

Sega was bleeding money for years after 1994 from a less profitable arcade division, to a failed educational attempt and a failed PC attempt. Portable didn't generate that much pocketable profits and their second endeavor flopped. They had studios not producing much revenue and many of those were cut, especially those western studios they had during the genesis and early Saturn. The Saturn itself was bleeding money on top of that.

Another thing to consider is software, at least console wise:

The Genesis/Mega Drive could almost be called lucky, and I know many fans don't want to see it that way but look at that software. You had Sonic and what else? One could argue Altered beast initially but that wasn't near Sonic levels. Basically the only BIG HIT Sega had was Sonic (and VF in Japan since Sonic flopped there) while they also had deals with companies for NBA jam and MK marketing. But otherwise they never were able to produce another big hit, and I think that's also something many people don't consider. If they had several big franchises not only would that give Sega a lot of money, but also make buyers explore other games in the library.

Meanwhile Sony and Nintendo had multiple hits. And were able to create new ones overtime as well, something Sega was never able to do unfortunately. When you look at the best selling Genesis/MD titles, Not even MK was close to Sonic. And then even Sonic experience drops by Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles (that sold less than 3 million combined in the Genesis best region at the time)

Sega was chasing ahead of itself is basically how I would put it. Invested on tons of things trying to expand without the infrastructure to support it.

 

[Afro Republican]

Fair points. I suppose you could also argue that the Lynx was more advanced than the GG too (in some ways, at least).

Does anyone know how much a regular CD player was in 1992/93 (when the Mega CD launched in the West)? It seems to be a common perception that the built-in DVD player helped shift PS2s, it's a shame it didn't have a similar effect on Sega's add-on. I remember that it was the first CD player in my house. I hooked it up to our old double cassette hi-fi system. It was great playing music (and games) using the big speakers!

Well for one CD players were much cheaper than the Sega CD and those were portable. One issue about "CD" add-ons like with Sega and NEC is no one was using those consoles to play CD's in the home like how people used the PS2 to watch DVD's, in Japan and a couple asian countries that was a bit more realistic but outside of that you were not buying a console for "CD" audio. You were buying it for what the CD tech could maybe do for games.

The closest thing to the PS2 at the time was the CD-I since Phillips was pusing the CD-i format with CD-i players of course those flopped and only sold 1 million sold (to explain how bad that is, CD-i was supposed to be DVD before DVD with hundreds of millions having players in there homes) because it did Audio and movies, and games.

No one was buying a consoles with a built-in CD players alone. Especially since entry level home audio that was non-portable was around the same price or slightly more expensive than the Sega CD to even audiophiles weren't taking it. There are Video CD's that Sega could have pushed but one thing about the Sega CD, and the NEC TGCD, are that they were way to weak and way to limited. The color count was too low and washed out, the picture wasn't clear, and audio quality was all over the place.

Also es, Lynx was quite a bit more powerful than the GG. The Lynx's only big weakness was resolution. Otherwise it could do scaling the SNES couldn't do with native hardware and could do polygons, though slowly.

 

[Afro Republican]

I remember some threads regarding Sega, their internal struggles, their hardware etc. from around 3-4 years ago. However, for some reason, all the search function returns are 10-year old threads.

You have to use google site search for some old threads to pop-up as the search bar on gaf itself seems to be random on what results show up.