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The Original Final Fantasy 7 has now sold over 14.1million units worldwide

NahaNago

Member
I mean, FF7 was never that big, it was always the deviant art, anime, jrpg crowd that got attracted to the game in the 90's still doing most of the blow horning for the game afterward, and comprise of most of the channels 9which are a smaller percent than you think) you reference. That's why despite being on PSN and various re-releases it didn't sell that much more after all of these years. Many of the people who got pulled in back then didn't come back either.

I think this was noticed and why FF7 Remake was chosen to be a loose sequel/remake/reboot with a new gameplay style, so they can attract old and new fans to the franchise.

However, Square has remained radio silent after that initial sales announcement years ago, so who knows how much Remake+grade has sold.
Deviant art existed in the 90s? I kind of feel like you are downplaying the game. Even the ocarina of time has supposedly only sold around 8 million copies around release and folks are still praising the game. I'm pretty sure ff7 was one of the best selling games of the ps1.

It's a ps1 game even if you rerelease it on psn you aren't going to get a lot of people to buy the game. For the reason that it is an ancient game and folks don't like turn based games as much these day.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they created a loose sequel just so that they can release the remake after they finish up this sequel.

Whatever it sold it wouldn't have hit Square's ridiculous sales goals.
 
Deviant art existed in the 90s? I kind of feel like you are downplaying the game. Even the ocarina of time has supposedly only sold around 8 million copies around release and folks are still praising the game. I'm pretty sure ff7 was one of the best selling games of the ps1.

Apparently you didn't read the post you quoted at all. Again,

I mean, FF7 was never that big, it was always the deviant art, anime, jrpg crowd that got attracted to the game in the 90's still doing most of the blow horning for the game afterward, and comprise of most of the channels (which are a smaller percent than you think) you reference. That's why despite being on PSN and various re-releases it didn't sell that much more after all of these years. Many of the people who got pulled in back then didn't come back either.

I think this was noticed and why FF7 Remake was chosen to be a loose sequel/remake/reboot with a new gameplay style, so they can attract old and new fans to the franchise.

However, Square has remained radio silent after that initial sales announcement years ago, so who knows how much Remake+grade has sold.

FF7 released at a very specific time which outside of Japan, led to it having sales Jrpgs failed to before but much of that audience didn't return to FF7 after that period, most of it's sales are still from its first few years of sales.

Despite re-releases for 20+ years, it only sold a few million more over that time. So it's not surprising the sales would be that low despite a shrinking loyal base keeping it in online gaming conversation sites (that lean japanese for older games) during all this time.

It happened with MGS as well, you'll hear about games for years as if they were the biggest things and people were still diving in, to find out they were not THAT big even at the original time of relevance.

So it isn't surprising people are surprised to see numbers like this expecting a lot more.
 
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NahaNago

Member
Apparently you didn't read the post you quoted at all. Again,



FF7 released at a very specific time which outside of Japan, led to it having sales Jrpgs failed to before but much of that audience didn't return to FF7 after that period, most of it's sales are still from its first few years of sales.

Despite re-releases for 20+ years, it only sold a few million more over that time. So it's not surprising the sales would be that low despite a shrinking loyal base keeping it in online gaming conversation sites (that lean japanese for older games) during all this time.

It happened with MGS as well, you'll hear about games for years as if they were the biggest things and people were still diving in, to find out they were not THAT big even at the original time of relevance.

So it isn't surprising people are surprised to see numbers like this expecting a lot more.
I don't understand what you mean by much of that audience didn't return to FF7 after that period?

It's a ps1 game so selling a few million copies is pretty good.

FF7 was that big of a game. The fact that Sony was able to pull them away from Nintendo was a massive win.

I do understand that ff7 isn't that massive a thing in the gaming sphere. We have fortnite, call of duty, minecraft, and tons of other games that folks play, watch, or talk about. With that said there is still a large and vocal following and squarenix has been milking the crap out of cloud and sephiroth for decades.

The problem I have is that I honestly simply expected it to have started out at 14 million from the first few years and then hit like 20 million at least. But considering it was supposedly one of the best selling ps1 games and it only sold around 6 million around launch I just overestimated.
 

Rykan

Member
I mean, FF7 was never that big, it was always the deviant art, anime, jrpg crowd that got attracted to the game in the 90's still doing most of the blow horning for the game afterward, and comprise of most of the channels 9which are a smaller percent than you think) you reference. That's why despite being on PSN and various re-releases it didn't sell that much more after all of these years. Many of the people who got pulled in back then didn't come back either.

I think this was noticed and why FF7 Remake was chosen to be a loose sequel/remake/reboot with a new gameplay style, so they can attract old and new fans to the franchise.

However, Square has remained radio silent after that initial sales announcement years ago, so who knows how much Remake+grade has sold.
Saying it was "Never that big" is straight up wrong.

Final Fantasy 7 is the second best selling game on the original playstation, selling about 10 million copies in total before any rereleases. I'm not sure how anyone can argue that being the 2nd best selling game on any major platform is "Never really that big". If FF7 wasn't big, then no game was.
 

TidusYuna

Member
I never played it until recently. After playing FFVII Remake on PC I decided it was time to finally play the original.

I loved the original! It was so much fun. For a game from the 90's it holds up quite well. The graphics are a mess of course but otherwise I had a load of fun with it. There are some QoL things it could do with but nothing major. Now I'm sad that FFVII Remake isn't really a remake but a sequel. I know we're getting that mobile game which will include FFVII story but i really wish we were getting a proper remake of the game now with updated 3d models/graphics and some QoL tweaks.
 
Still the best JRPG ever created.

Come At Me Bring It On GIF by Travis
No, that is FF6, followed by Xenogears.

I mean, FF7 was never that big, it was always the deviant art, anime, jrpg crowd that got attracted to the game in the 90's still doing most of the blow horning for the game afterward, and comprise of most of the channels 9which are a smaller percent than you think) you reference. That's why despite being on PSN and various re-releases it didn't sell that much more after all of these years. Many of the people who got pulled in back then didn't come back either.

I think this was noticed and why FF7 Remake was chosen to be a loose sequel/remake/reboot with a new gameplay style, so they can attract old and new fans to the franchise.

However, Square has remained radio silent after that initial sales announcement years ago, so who knows how much Remake+grade has sold.
This is complete nonsense. FF7 is what won the console war for Sony, and at the time was a massive success. Everything you've said basically shows pure ignorance and a willingness to speak out of your ass.

FF7 had CG commercials on primetime. It's sales were massive. 10m sales in the gaming market of 1997 would be like selling 30 million today. It's one of the most popular games of all time and completely shook the industry when it released.
 
Saying it was "Never that big" is straight up wrong.

Final Fantasy 7 is the second best selling game on the original playstation, selling about 10 million copies in total before any rereleases. I'm not sure how anyone can argue that being the 2nd best selling game on any major platform is "Never really that big". If FF7 wasn't big, then no game was.
Yeah, its a straight up foolish argument, and it's clear they weren't there/weren't old enough to remember what was the biggest marketing push ever in gaming. The launch was massive. It won Sony the console war in its very first generation.
 

NahaNago

Member

January 31 Declared as Final Fantasy 7 Day in Japan​

January 31 has been officially declared as Final Fantasy 7 Day by the Japan Anniversary Organisation (JAO), marking the 25th anniversary of the game’s PS1 release in Japan. The designation highlights the impact the title has had on the Japanese games industry and the overall medium of video games.


https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2023/01/31/final-fantasy-7-day-japan-january-31/#:~:text=January 31 has been officially,overall medium of video games.
This is amusing. I would have figured they would have had a just a final fantasy day and that FF14 would have been a much bigger deal.
 
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Celine

Member
I'm surprised it's not more honestly.
It's all relative to the time of the release.
FFVII was among the most popular games ever released for the 32-64bit generation of TV consoles but back then gaming was all around smaller compared to nowadays when truly big games can hit +30 million units.
The PC port subsequently released by Eidos in the late '90s also sold well (above 1 million units).
The rest of the units (around 3 million) are from later digital re-releases sold on the cheap.

L5I3DMZ.jpg


For instance Super Mario Odyssey is aiming for total sales of 30M, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild will soon pass 30M and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe will be soon above 50M.
The real problem for Square Enix is that in today age, where there are all the means to beat your past records (thanks to multiplatform developement, digital distribution and gaming reaching emerging markets), Final Fantasy XV (PS4, XBO, PC) sits at just 10M.
 
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krumble

Member
I'm surprised it's not more honestly.
That was my first thought with the amount of platforms it's been released on over the years as official classic emulation through to direct ports psp, Vita, ps3, ps4, Xbox one, switch, various pc ports, various mobile ports across multiple platforms..
 
I don't understand what you mean by much of that audience didn't return to FF7 after that period?

Because you haven't really read a single post so far.

It's a ps1 game so selling a few million copies is pretty good.

This is evidence of that, as I never said it wasn't.

FF7 was that big of a game. The fact that Sony was able to pull them away from Nintendo was a massive win.

In Japan sure.

Saying it was "Never that big" is straight up wrong.

100% accurate outside of Japan.

FF7 is what won the console war for Sony,

In some countries like the US, which Sony sold the most PS's, it wasn't even in the top 10 best-sellers.

Was a good selling game, lots of hype, but the amount of people who inflate HOW big it was has always been inflated by certain online gaming circles over the years. Nothing wrong with the game, it didn't sell poorly, sold great really, just wasnt that big.

Final Fantasy 7 is the second best selling game on the original playstation,
No, that is FF6, followed by Xenogears.


This is complete nonsense. FF7 is what won the console war for Sony, and at the time was a massive success. E

Many games are inflated on the wikipedia list (which isn't entirely accurate) because everyone buys everyones games except japan, who mostly only brought their games at the time (and Crash Bandicoot)

You see 10 Million but don't think about where that came from.

~5million shipped in japan compared to 2.45 in the US is already 7.45M out of the original 9.8 Million sales back in the day. The new 10 something million on there includes late JAPANESE sales on top of that 9.8, and that number is NOT including PSN and other legal sales in JAPAN for the game which is included in this new number (and in other countries until now) which added 4 million sales, mostly from Japan.

When people talk about big games they usually mean having big reach as well, FF7 was a good seller, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't ever that big, most of it's clout was in Japan.

Gran Turismo would actually be a much better example of a impactful big game that really shifted the narrative back in the day without it being artificial and/or inflated.

To say that FF7 "won the console war" for sony is actually nonsense, given it's a war they were already winning before FF7 came out, and won more so AFTER it was already out with other games.

FF7 had CG commercials on primetime. It's sales were massive.

Many games had commercials during prime time. Technically, you are right it did have massive sales relatively, for the time, except you're applying that the wrong way by acting like it was a big thing across the industry in mass, instead of primarily in one country, which is responsible for most of its sales, and the fact other countries also play that game (even if not as much) which adds to the total, something that was not done in reverse back then for most big games.

While other big games that actually had better regional spread and were more known, were not generally brought by Japan, this is why looking at absolute numbers back then doesn't mean much.

Notice people don't use this argument for Dragon Quest because they knew that game basically didn't exist (relatively) outside of japan without having as loyal fans, or heavy marketing (despite the western anime boom taking off at the time, silly move in hindsight at Enix back then), it's not different with FF7 other than the fact it had better sales outside japan because of the marketing, Sony's assistance, and other factors.

Yeah, its a straight up foolish argument, and it's clear they weren't there/weren't old enough to remember what was the biggest marketing push ever in gaming.

No, more like you were a kid, became a fan, and went along with the hype without looking for the facts I mean we have sales figures, FF7 wasn't even top 10 in the US, and the UK sold less FF7 than what the US sold, who knows how little it sold across Europe despite the marketing campaign.

Marketing campaigns don't guarantee massive sales across the board.

With that being said, you are also being misleading, you are twisting me saying it wasn't THAT big, which is true, and no it didn't save Sony or lead to a win it was already winning, to me acting like it didn't sell at all. or very little

FF7 sold great, it just wasn't the Halo 3 of the time you are making it out to be. People who think like that are the ones who are constantly surprised when stuff like US numbers are released, or they see this thread and see only 14 million. Much of it's sales was in one-region, outside of that region many of the sales were frontloaded because of the circumstances of the time you may not have been there for, or may not remember. After that, interest waned over time, and some of those initial users did not come back.

  • Such as the Anime boom
  • Sony's marketing assistance,
  • Casual anime fans who weren't gamers being pulled in
  • Prominence at some retailers
  • People who jumped on the bandwagon (trend chasing)
  • Actual people who wanted the game straightforward on top of the above.
Some of those decreased or stopped coming back after the first few years of FF7's release, it's really only been consistently strong selling up until now in Japan with big number, I'm sure it's done well everywhere else put together outside of Japan, but that 14 million number doesn't seem low to me at all given the circumstances.

That was my first thought with the amount of platforms it's been released on over the years as official classic emulation through to direct ports psp, Vita, ps3, ps4, Xbox one, switch, various pc ports, various mobile ports across multiple platforms..

Given the circumstances, I think that 14 million is right on the money. That 4 Million or so on top of what was there in the 2000s until now doesn't seem that low to me if you think regionally for where those sales may have come from.
 
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US NPD/MB best selling PS1 games.

Code:
PSX   Sony          Gran Turismo                                        3.26
PSX   Sony          Crash Bandicoot 2                                   3.12
PSX   Sony          Gran Turismo 2                                       3.1
PSX   Sony          Crash Bandicoot 3: Wrapped                          3.05
PSX   Atari         Frogger                                             2.94
PSX   Sony          Crash Bandicoot                                     2.75
PSX   Sony          Spyro The Dragon                                    2.75
PSX   Namco         Tekken 3                                             2.7
PSX   Activision    Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2                            2.63
PSX   Atari         Driver                                              2.62
PSX   Activision    Tony Hawk's Pro Skater                              2.51
PSX   Sony**        Final Fantasy VII                                   2.45
PSX   Konami        Metal Gear Solid                                    2.43
PSX   Acclaim       WWE Warzone                                          2.2
PSX   Activision    Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3                             2.1
PSX   Atari         Driver 2                                            2.05
PSX   Namco         Namco Museum Vol. 3                                    2
PSX   Squaresoft    Final Fantasy VIII                                  1.91
PSX   Sony          Crash Team Racing                                    1.9
PSX   Capcom        Resident Evil (w/ Director's Cut)                   1.88
PSX   Eidos         Tomb Raider                                         1.87
PSX   Eidos         Tomb Raider 2                                       1.78
PSX   Namco         Tekken 2                                            1.75
 
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OuterLimits

Member
It feels as if everybody in the world my age and below has played this... surprised it's not way more.
Happy to say I've bought it four times.
The vast majority of the sales are old farts like us buying it multiple times. I agree that 14 million seems kind of depressing really. Should be higher.
 
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US NPD/MB best selling PS1 games.

Code:
PSX   Sony          Gran Turismo                                        3.26
PSX   Sony          Crash Bandicoot 2                                   3.12
PSX   Sony          Gran Turismo 2                                       3.1
PSX   Sony          Crash Bandicoot 3: Wrapped                          3.05
PSX   Atari         Frogger                                             2.94
PSX   Sony          Crash Bandicoot                                     2.75
PSX   Sony          Spyro The Dragon                                    2.75
PSX   Namco         Tekken 3                                             2.7
PSX   Activision    Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2                            2.63
PSX   Atari         Driver                                              2.62
PSX   Activision    Tony Hawk's Pro Skater                              2.51
PSX   Sony**        Final Fantasy VII                                   2.45
PSX   Konami        Metal Gear Solid                                    2.43
PSX   Acclaim       WWE Warzone                                          2.2
PSX   Activision    Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3                             2.1
PSX   Atari         Driver 2                                            2.05
PSX   Namco         Namco Museum Vol. 3                                    2
PSX   Squaresoft    Final Fantasy VIII                                  1.91
PSX   Sony          Crash Team Racing                                    1.9
PSX   Capcom        Resident Evil (w/ Director's Cut)                   1.88
PSX   Eidos         Tomb Raider                                         1.87
PSX   Eidos         Tomb Raider 2                                       1.78
PSX   Namco         Tekken 2                                            1.75
All of those games were the best sellers of the generation. Millions each, they trounced Nintendo, and FF7 led the charge.

You’re trying to rewrite history with no understanding of the gaming market at the time. FF7 was the most well known and highly marketed game in the country outside of Mario.

You don’t understand proportional representation in sales. There weren’t 400+ million PSX/N64’s/DC’s like there are ps4/5/Switch/Xbox consoles. Its effect on the market and popularity in American gaming was huge.
It swung the console wars to Playstation in America, and no amount of you pretending otherwise will change it.
 
All of those games were the best sellers of the generation. Millions each, they trounced Nintendo, and FF7 led the charge.

Literally saying FF7 led the charge it didn't leave the charge in with a list showing it didn't lead the charge.

You’re trying to rewrite history with no understanding of the gaming market at the time.

You literally have sales charts you quoted proving my point most of FF7 clout was in one country, it wasn't even top 10 in the US where most PS1's were sold, you are doing the reqriting.

FF7 was the most well known and highly marketed game in the country outside of Mario.

If the country is "the US" which is the chart I posted and you quoted, this is completely made up.

You don’t understand proportional representation in sales.

No, that's the part you keep trying to evade and won't address. Despite the chart you quoted.

popularity in American gaming was huge.

It was a popular game, but it wasn't Crash GT, Tekken, Spyro, Driver or Tony Hawk, and it's sequel couldn't pick up the same bar.

It swung the console wars to Playstation in America,

No it didn't, and again, you have actual facts quoted, with that chart, but it seems you don't want to consider it so oh well.
 

NahaNago

Member
US NPD/MB best selling PS1 games.

Code:
PSX   Sony          Gran Turismo                                        3.26
PSX   Sony          Crash Bandicoot 2                                   3.12
PSX   Sony          Gran Turismo 2                                       3.1
PSX   Sony          Crash Bandicoot 3: Wrapped                          3.05
PSX   Atari         Frogger                                             2.94
PSX   Sony          Crash Bandicoot                                     2.75
PSX   Sony          Spyro The Dragon                                    2.75
PSX   Namco         Tekken 3                                             2.7
PSX   Activision    Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2                            2.63
PSX   Atari         Driver                                              2.62
PSX   Activision    Tony Hawk's Pro Skater                              2.51
PSX   Sony**        Final Fantasy VII                                   2.45
PSX   Konami        Metal Gear Solid                                    2.43
PSX   Acclaim       WWE Warzone                                          2.2
PSX   Activision    Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3                             2.1
PSX   Atari         Driver 2                                            2.05
PSX   Namco         Namco Museum Vol. 3                                    2
PSX   Squaresoft    Final Fantasy VIII                                  1.91
PSX   Sony          Crash Team Racing                                    1.9
PSX   Capcom        Resident Evil (w/ Director's Cut)                   1.88
PSX   Eidos         Tomb Raider                                         1.87
PSX   Eidos         Tomb Raider 2                                       1.78
PSX   Namco         Tekken 2                                            1.75
Doesn't this chart debunk it not being that big when it is a bit less than a million from the number 1 game sold in the U.S. ?

The whole anime boom you keep talking about throws me off when you tie that to final fantasy for me since I simply played it at someone's house loved it and bought the game. It was the reason I jumped on FF8 and FF9. I also just never tied it to anime.

Is it simply that the western jrpg crowd is ridiculously vocal about ff7?

I think I figured out what you mentioned about not returning to ff7. If you are talking about FF8 then yeah the sales were less than 7 but it was also a bunch of new characters. If your are talking about FF7R then I don't know what the sales are but they are still going ahead and spamming us with a bunch of FF7 related games so it seems to be doing good enough for a remake of a game from 25 years ago.

This chart honestly kind of shocks me because I thought Tomb Raider sold more copies.
 
Doesn't this chart debunk it not being that big when it is a bit less than a million from the number 1 game sold in the U.S. ?

No, it literally proves it was not "that" big, you are confusing the hyperbole for it not selling well, it sold well, just not that big, and the difference back then between hundreds of thousands or 1 million sales was completely different than now, or even 10 years ago.

FF brand had an audience (FF8 also had a lesser audience) but it wasn't a top ten game that 'saved sony" and "was the reason that Sony won the console war" like the other user said.

The whole anime boom you keep talking about throws me off when you tie that to final fantasy for me since I simply played it at someone's house loved it and bought the game. It was the reason I jumped on FF8 and FF9. I also just never tied it to anime.

It attracted many anime fans of the time when that was taking off, I'm not sure why you think that would impact your personal experience, that would just be on top of yours.

They made up a chunk of FF7 sales at the time, which also lead to more anime games coming over to the US flop or otherwise, the issue is several of those did not come back once they were done with the FF7 hype.

That's why you didn't see a longer tail on FF7 in the US. Those and the ones who were impressed by the marketing campaign and got sucked into the hype, those were not going to stick around that long.

I think I figured out what you mentioned about not returning to ff7. If you are talking about FF8 then yeah the sales were less than 7 but it was also a bunch of new characters. If your are talking about FF7R

I mean they didn't come back to rebuy FF7, which is why across all these years not many overall sales were added since the early 2000s numbers.

spamming us with a bunch of FF7 related games so it seems to be doing good enough for a remake of a game from 25 years ago.

FF7 has an incredibly devoted and exploitable fanbase, and if they can get new comers too, is easily a safe project to make money (outside of Squares money management issue of course, which are a separate issue), and considering the condition of Square right now, we should expect them to milk anything that brings in the money. Even if they don't sell 10+ million copies.

Squares strategy with FF7 may probably be how they tackle other games (AA-AAA) going forward.

This chart honestly kind of shocks me because I thought Tomb Raider sold more copies.

Tomb Raider did well, but it was always bigger in the UK where it was much more of a big deal back in the PS1 days.

You also had Crash, twisted Metal 2, Die Hard Trilogy, Namco Museum, Tekken 2, MK Trilogy, Wipeout 2097 and others, come out that same year, so in the US where all of these did well and some, you could only split the sales so many times.
 

Rykan

Member
Many games are inflated on the wikipedia list (which isn't entirely accurate) because everyone buys everyones games except japan, who mostly only brought their games at the time (and Crash Bandicoot)

You see 10 Million but don't think about where that came from.

~5million shipped in japan compared to 2.45 in the US is already 7.45M out of the original 9.8 Million sales back in the day. The new 10 something million on there includes late JAPANESE sales on top of that 9.8, and that number is NOT including PSN and other legal sales in JAPAN for the game which is included in this new number (and in other countries until now) which added 4 million sales, mostly from Japan.

When people talk about big games they usually mean having big reach as well, FF7 was a good seller, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't ever that big, most of it's clout was in Japan.

Gran Turismo would actually be a much better example of a impactful big game that really shifted the narrative back in the day without it being artificial and/or inflated.

To say that FF7 "won the console war" for sony is actually nonsense, given it's a war they were already winning before FF7 came out, and won more so AFTER it was already out with other games.
Okay so there's a few things to address here, and it's probably best to start with the numbers because they aren't entirely accurate, and I also see you bring in NPD numbers which are not even remotely reliable.

Let's start with the numbers: Final Fantasy 7, according to Square Enix, sold 5.8 million copies in North America and Europe. These numbers are from December 2005 and do not include any PSN release as those were much, much later.
We don't know exactly what the split between North America and Europe is, but what we do know is that Final Fantasy sells way more in North America than it does in Europe. Something along the lines of 3m ~ 3.5 million is much more likely for North America. 5.8 million copies for a game for just North American and Europe sales is absolutely huge for its time period.

NPD numbers itself are completely unreliable for anything regarding the mid 90s. The way NPD gathers its data is literally from major retailers and then predicting a sales trend on that data: However in the 90's, there were a significantly larger amount of video game stores and thus video games sold outside of larger chains. NPD is therefore, at best, guesswork.

You keep talking about this "Anime, JRPG crowd" but these are nothing more than meaningless stereotypes that are not founded on anything. Even calling it "JRPG crowd" when Final Fantasy 7 & 8 were clearly outliers instead of the norm should tell you that this absurd generalization is just that.
 
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Celine

Member
All of those games were the best sellers of the generation. Millions each, they trounced Nintendo, and FF7 led the charge.
You've quoted US sell-through figures for PS1 games (unit sales).
This is what the corrresponding for N64 looks like:

N64 SUPER MARIO 64 5.94M
N64 GOLDENEYE 007 5.02M
N64 MARIO KART 64 4.80M
N64 ZELDA: OCARINA TIME 3.54M
N64 DONKEY KONG 64 2.87M (include bundle with system)
N64 POKEMON STADIUM 2.75M (include bundle with system)
N64 SUPER SMASH BROTHERS 2.55M
N64 DIDDY KONG RACING 2.50M
N64 STAR FOX 64 2.39M (include both with Rumble pack and standalone SKUs)
N64 POKEMON SNAP 1.92M
 
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I also see you bring in NPD numbers which are not even remotely reliable.

Uh....yes they are?

Let's start with the numbers: Final Fantasy 7, according to Square Enix, sold 5.8 million copies in North America and Europe. T

Yes.

With Japan that already brings it to the original 9.8 million announcement. Then the 10M announcement afterward including later japanese sales. Nothing unusual here.

We don't know exactly what the split between North America and Europe is,

2.45 for the US by itself.

NPD numbers itself are completely unreliable for anything regarding the mid 90s. The way NPD gathers its data is literally from major retailers and then predicting a sales trend on that data

NPD game data was accurate in the US, you're talking about North America, and even then by 1997 they got their act together more and were starting to cover gaming much more, and had a separate site for it called NPD gameworld (or funworld) something along those lines.

One of the biggest mistakes people make with the sales discussion is mixing up US with North America. US may be most of it but it's not the entire continent.

You keep talking about this "Anime, JRPG crowd" but these are nothing more than meaningless stereotypes that are not founded on anything. Even calling it "JRPG crowd" when Final Fantasy 7 & 8 were clearly outliers instead of the norm should tell you that this absurd generalization is just that.

Because it's accurate, anime was growing and become popular in the US at the time, and anime based games were getting attention for that reason, you had fans of the medium already before then, the type who would have been among the niche that brought CT or FF6 in the US before, those people would buy FF7 too, along with the anime crowd, you had anime cg marketing campaign and promo material all over. If you think the height of anime coming into popularity in the US into the mainstream didn't have an impact on people buying Anime games in some form, I have a bridge to sell you in Korea.

There's nothing stereotypical about it, that's when anime popularity was expanding. JRPG crowd also existed already, JRPGs were sold before FF7 they just weren't big, there was also Jrpgs before FF7 as well. All these groups add up.

Many of these groups weren't reliable long-term fans or buyers, which is why despite the growth of these groups still going strong by FF8, the adoption was lower. In fact, FF7 was the biggest anime based video game on home consoles until the PS2. Yes that is relevant.

Were all FF7 sales because of old JRPGS fans, and anime fans/casuals being sucked in through marketing and the material? NO.

However, we aren't talking about 20,000 people here were are talking millions, so yes that would have an impact on overall sales outside of Japan, and would have an impact on how sequels did less because that audience didn't come back.

Look at how long from FF7 did we had another FF game come close to FF7's sales in the home console Jrpg space, FF15 was 2016, FF7 was 1997, that's 19 years, almost 20. But you didn't think there was a reason they kept having such a hard time outdoing FF7 at Square? With big hits like FFX, KH, and such? Come on. FF8 literally couldn't ride FF7's wave because pieces that helped make that wave DID NOT COME BACK for another game in the US.
 
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Celine

Member
Some time ago NPD released the top 10 best selling games in US based on revenue for a bunch of legacy platforms and also the top 20 for each year since 1995:
Zt3db7L.jpg

(highlighted the first-party published games)

pG5N5TI.jpg


QUHuah9.jpg


19Wb3ZD.jpg


ibCXs5B.jpg
 
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Go_Ly_Dow

Member
Must be millions, maybe tens of millions who have played used or pirated copies of this game, across PS1 and PC.
 
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Not long ago NPD released the top 10 best selling games in US based on revenue for a bunch of legacy platforms and also the top 20 for each year since 1995:
Zt3db7L.jpg

(highlighted the first-party published games)

pG5N5TI.jpg


QUHuah9.jpg


19Wb3ZD.jpg


ibCXs5B.jpg

These are revenue, not unit sales BTW, just in case people get confused. NPD stopped unit sales talk year ago. Supposedly due to pressure from companies but I don't think that was ever confirmed, though not really surprising. But that would be why Crash 1's lack of price drops and longer shelf length in comparison to its sequels, or the later released GT, would put it above GT even though unit wise, GT is over Crash 1 (and crash 2 and 3 are also over Crash 1 too.) but revenue was Crash made the most money (not unit sales).
 

Rykan

Member
Uh....yes they are?
Ehh...No they aren't? NPD only tracks major retailers.
Yes.

With Japan that already brings it to the original 9.8 million announcement. Then the 10M announcement afterward including later japanese sales. Nothing unusual here.
The 9.8mannouncement is the only announcement that is relevant here
2.45 for the US by itself.

NPD game data was accurate in the US, you're talking about North America, and even then by 1997 they got their act together more and were starting to cover gaming much more, and had a separate site for it called NPD gameworld (or funworld) something along those lines.

One of the biggest mistakes people make with the sales discussion is mixing up US with North America. US may be most of it but it's not the entire continent
The Canadian and Mexican Video game markets are nearly entirely irrelevant. Canada has a low population and I'm not even sure if FF7 was released in Mexico: The Spanish FF7 version appears to be the PAL version. There's no data supporting the NPD claim as accurate. The official numbers we have for North America and Europe from Square Enix is 5.8 Million, and with the knowledge that Final Fantasy sells significantly more in NA than it does in Europe and the US makes up, by far, the largest market share of NA, the number is likely off by several hundred thousands of units. Even if we leave it up in the air and just focus on the fact that FF7 sold almost 6 million copies in just North America and Europe alone, it's impossible to argue that Final Fantasy 7 wasn't a huge game based on those numbers and when viewed in context of the typical sales for its era.
Because it's accurate, anime was growing and become popular in the US at the time, and anime based games were getting attention for that reason, you had fans of the medium already before then, the type who would have been among the niche that brought CT or FF6 in the US before, those people would buy FF7 too, along with the anime crowd, you had anime cg marketing campaign and promo material all over. If you think the height of anime coming into popularity in the US into the mainstream didn't have an impact on people buying Anime games in some form, I have a bridge to sell you in Korea.

There's nothing stereotypical about it, that's when anime popularity was expanding. JRPG crowd also existed already, JRPGs were sold before FF7 they just weren't big, there was also Jrpgs before FF7 as well. All these groups add up.

Many of these groups weren't reliable long-term fans or buyers, which is why despite the growth of these groups still going strong by FF8, the adoption was lower. In fact, FF7 was the biggest anime based video game on home consoles until the PS2. Yes that is relevant.

Were all FF7 sales because of old JRPGS fans, and anime fans/casuals being sucked in through marketing and the material? NO.

However, we aren't talking about 20,000 people here were are talking millions, so yes that would have an impact on overall sales outside of Japan, and would have an impact on how sequels did less because that audience didn't come back.

Look at how long from FF7 did we had another FF game come close to FF7's sales in the home console Jrpg space, FF15 was 2016, FF7 was 1997, that's 19 years, almost 20. But you didn't think there was a reason they kept having such a hard time outdoing FF7 at Square? With big hits like FFX, KH, and such? Come on. FF8 literally couldn't ride FF7's wave because pieces that helped make that wave DID NOT COME BACK for another game in the US.
Again, you're simply trying to imply there's a connection without able to back this up in any shape or form. Your entire argument is that "Well these two phenomenon's happened in the same decade, so they MUST be related" all while ignoring that Final Fantasy 7 was both heavily marketed and one of the, if not the, first big budget "Blockbuster" RPGs to come out. If there was a significant increase in demand for JRPGS just because of Anime, then we would see the same increase in other JRPG franchises and, in fact, we would see a continued increase of JRPGs as Anime popularity has increased significantly since then. Neither of those happened.

How long from FF7 did we had another FF game come close to those numbers? I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. Final Fantasy VIII sold 8.5m copies. There was a decline in FFIX because it was the end of the PS1, but sales were back up for Final Fantasy X with another 8.5m copies on PS2. Only after that have sales started to decline somewhat, probably in line with the drop in quality of the games.

The idea that FF7 was just one and done for many buyers isn't supported by the data.
 
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Ehh...No they aren't? NPD only tracks major retailers.

yes they are.

The 9.8mannouncement is the only announcement that is relevant here

Which you agree with, so not sure why were the misalignment is you claimed earlier.

The Canadian and Mexican Video game markets are nearly entirely irrelevant. Canada has a low population and I'm not even sure if FF7 was released in Mexico: The Spanish FF7 version appears to be the PAL version. There's no data supporting the NPD claim as accurate.

You believing those markets are irrelevant isn't relevant to the conversation ironically. NPD tracked US sales, NPD was accurate, and NA and US were not tracked the same so no, US sales charts were literally for the US, and were different from NA sales charts at the time.

That's why the N64 US numbers contradict Nintendos NA numbers for the same games.

NPD tracked the sales and had created a new section for gaming because they had a then new at the time sections specifically for it by 1996, it was before 1996 where NPD was barely involved with reporting on games very much because of limited data, and tracking. Which is why NPD talk usually doesn't go before 1995, including by Matt who works there.

The highest FF7 could possibly be in the US is 3 million and that's assuming we include those late US bargain sales and assume form when those start to the EOL of the PS1, the game sells nearly 600k more. That still doesn't change much of anything as that would apply to the other Ps1 games as well, and wouldn't change the fact Japan was where most of FF7's clout was, including it's influence, and the series would do better there following up from FF7, than in the US.

Why? Because some factors that contributed to FF7 sales did not come back.

Again, FF7 great selling game, but it wasn't the halo 3 of the late 90's, and as the other user claimed, did not "win the console war" for Sony by itself, nor did it save sony, nor was it "the" reason why it beat the N64, and other hyperbolic claims.

Again, you're simply trying to imply there's a connection without able to back this up in any shape or form.

No, you just weren't there so you don't understand the environment of the time, take a look at the anime scene in the 90's and the relationship between FF and Pokemon, it's pretty an upwards line graph in correlation. If you want to deny this then the only other explanation would be that FFVIII wasn't a good enough game to retain players who dropped off and didn't come back after FF7 honeymoon period. It makes more sense that there are demographics that were attracted, that didn't come back, for the sequels or otherwise.

Pokemon at least replaced those demographics with a new supply of children each gen. FF7 was defacto the height of all home console Jrpgs for years, and only sold !4 million more despite all the online talk and internet releases in 20 years since earlier 2000s.

Your entire argument is that "Well these two phenomenon's happened in the same decade, so they MUST be related"

I listed several factors in bullet points actually, it's almost looking like you are stripping and rearranging my points out of context on purpose to cmislead , I hope I'm wrong about y-

If there was a significant increase in demand for JRPGS just because of Anime,

-there is is, no, I didn't say this. Not only did I not just say this and listed multiple factors with bullet points but this contradicts my point that I said those people who were initially interested in that group would NOT come back.

If you want to have a conversation actually address what I said.

Also just to prevent more twisting, FF7 sold great in the US. Just wasn't "that" big nor did it "save" sony and "won sony the war" they were already winning, in the US as another user in the thread said.
 

Rykan

Member
yes they are.
They are not. NPD tracks only major retailers and they do not get their information from the publisher either.
Which you agree with, so not sure why were the misalignment is you claimed earlier.



You believing those markets are irrelevant isn't relevant to the conversation ironically. NPD tracked US sales, NPD was accurate, and NA and US were not tracked the same so no, US sales charts were literally for the US, and were different from NA sales charts at the time.
Because your information is incorrect. You claimed that 5 million copies out of 9.8m were sold in NTSC - J territories. You're off by 1 million: only 4 out of the 9.8m were in NTSC - J territory. FF7 sold 5.8M copies in Europe and North America. The only way that the NPD number is realistically correct if somehow, Canada + Europe sold 3.35 million copies combined, which would be significantly more than the US sales. Considering hardware sales split per region, the almost complete absence of the genre in the area, Language barriers and the fact that franchise had no history in the region, that is extremely unlikely.

That's why the N64 US numbers contradict Nintendos NA numbers for the same games.

NPD tracked the sales and had created a new section for gaming because they had a then new at the time sections specifically for it by 1996, it was before 1996 where NPD was barely involved with reporting on games very much because of limited data, and tracking. Which is why NPD talk usually doesn't go before 1995, including by Matt who works there.

The highest FF7 could possibly be in the US is 3 million and that's assuming we include those late US bargain sales and assume form when those start to the EOL of the PS1, the game sells nearly 600k more. That still doesn't change much of anything as that would apply to the other Ps1 games as well, and wouldn't change the fact Japan was where most of FF7's clout was, including it's influence, and the series would do better there following up from FF7, than in the US.

Why? Because some factors that contributed to FF7 sales did not come back.

Again, FF7 great selling game, but it wasn't the halo 3 of the late 90's, and as the other user claimed, did not "win the console war" for Sony by itself, nor did it save sony, nor was it "the" reason why it beat the N64, and other hyperbolic claims.
There is absolutely nothing suggesting that the highest FF7 could possibly be in the US is 3 Million. None. The only hard data that we do have is that FF7 sold 5.8 million between NA (which is practically just the US) and Europe and the knowledge that Final Fantasy games sell better in North America than Europe. Comparing it to something like Halo 3 is silly. Halo 3 came out in a completely different era that offered way more marketing opportunities than were available on the original Playstation. It's the same reason why current day blockbusters wipe the floor with sales of the original PS1's biggest games, even on somewhat comparable install bases. Halo 3 is also the third installment in a series that was widely considered to be the reason to own an Xbox. Surely FF7 isn't in any way comparable to Halo. In fact, almost no franchise or game is. But to deny its importance is ignorant. Final Fantasy 7 was a huge deal because it was an incredibly popular game that, very importantly, was third party. The fact that a big budget third party game, a former Nintendo exclusive franchise no less, could do those numbers on Playstation undoubtedly influenced a lot of publishers to focus more on Playstation over the competition.
No, you just weren't there so you don't understand the environment of the time, take a look at the anime scene in the 90's and the relationship between FF and Pokemon, it's pretty an upwards line graph in correlation.
You cannot be serious about this. SURELY even you must understand how utterly insane this argument is? You think there is a correlation JUST because they both have an upline graph? Wow. Just wow.
The pokemon anime started broadcasting in September of 1998 in the US: An entire year after Final Fantasy 7 came out, which was already breaking company records and became the best selling game of 1997 in the US. An entire year before the Pokemon Anime came out in the US
If you want to deny this then the only other explanation would be that FFVIII wasn't a good enough game to retain players who dropped off and didn't come back after FF7 honeymoon period. It makes more sense that there are demographics that were attracted, that didn't come back, for the sequels or otherwise.
What are you even talking about? Final Fantasy VIII sold 8.5m units. FFIX sold a lot less, at 5.5m copies because it came out right at the end of the PS1 when the PS2 was about to be released, and sales were up again for Final Fantasy X which were also 8.5m units. Final Fantasy IX was clearly the exception due to circumstances, but the sales have been fairly stable after FF7 until at least FFXII.
Pokemon at least replaced those demographics with a new supply of children each gen. FF7 was defacto the height of all home console Jrpgs for years, and only sold !4 million more despite all the online talk and internet releases in 20 years since earlier 2000s.
What exactly is the argument here? That Final Fantasy isn't doing Pokemon Numbers? You think people are still running out to buy the original Pokemon Red and Blue? Of course not. They're playing either one of the new installments or the remakes.
I listed several factors in bullet points actually, it's almost looking like you are stripping and rearranging my points out of context on purpose to cmislead , I hope I'm wrong about y-

-there is is, no, I didn't say this. Not only did I not just say this and listed multiple factors with bullet points but this contradicts my point that I said those people who were initially interested in that group would NOT come back.
The groups you've listed are as follows: Deviant Art, Anime and JRPG crowd and while the JRPG crowd makes sense, the other two is literally just a stereotype that has no grounds whatsoever.
If you want to have a conversation actually address what I said.\
That is interesting, considering you completely ignored the numbers I posted that show that Final Fantasy sales following VII haven't dropped that much and were pretty comparable.
 
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They are not. NPD tracks only major retailers and they do not get their information from the publisher either.

NPD in the late 90's (not mid) was receiving as they do now, insight of the US market (not NA) getting their information from other market research and their own through retailers, and was then and is now, the most accurate for unit sales (though they don't openly report unit sales anymore) and considering they also match competitors, which magic-box also used, it just shows further the data is accurate.

You have no reason to suspect there is anything wrong with their FF7 sales. Which seems to be the only reason why you are downplaying NPD. While also bringing up NA sales when that's separate from US sales, and was divided for that reason with Canada having it's own section.

Because your information is incorrect. You claimed that 5 million copies

Which is reasonable looking at the current 10 million+ sales by the later 2000's (4.5M vs.5M shipped vs. sold), it's only an issue depending on how you look at the initial 9.8M.

That 5.8M NA+EU that you agree with, is correct, it's NA+Europe, not the US. US is not NA, for some reason you want to put them together. Canada+Mexico isn't only 300 sales. Especially Canada where big games added substantially to final numbers, for all PS1 games. Just because the US is the bulk doesn't mean we ignore the other countries. Again, N64 US sales contradict Nintendo's N64 NA sales, because NA is NOT the US.

The numbers are not flawed.

The only hard data that we do have is that FF7 sold 5.8 million between NA (which is practically just the US) and Europe and the knowledge that Final Fantasy games sell better in North America than Europe. Comparing it to something like Halo 3 is silly. Halo 3 came out in a completely different era that offered way more marketing opportunities than were available on the original Playstation. It's the same reason why current day blockbusters wipe the floor with sales of the original PS1's biggest games, even on somewhat comparable install bases.

You're whole argument continues to be invalid because you constantly keep ignoring, intentionally, that the US numbers are not NA numbers, so you keep trying to mislead by trying to create confusion fusing the two together.

Again the US is not NA. I also didn't compare anything to Halo 3, you are not taking my words CLEARLY talking about another USERS hyperbolic claims in this conversation, and cutting that part out to pretend I'm comparing FF7 to Halo 3, which can't work because I spend most of this discussion saying that while FF sold great in the US it wasn't "that big" which is the exact opposite of comparing it to Halo 3. Not sure why you're doing that if you believe you have a reasonable argument.

I also didn't deny the games important, your whole charade of posts is trying to throw in arguments I never made into a bunch of speculative texts attacking an NPD chart. To make it seem like I argued about something I never did.

Example

You think there is a correlation JUST because they both have an upline graph? Wow. Just wow.

There isn't a graph, that was a very clear expression and it was clear what I meant when i made that expression. You pretending I was talking about an actual graph is only there so you can lie and claim I said something I didn't. (not to mention completely making your own reality by taking the stuff I said about pokemon completely out of context, when i was only mentioning it in regards to the growing popularity of anime)

I'm going to go with reliable NPD numbers. For the US (which isn't NA), and since you haven't shown how NPD is unreliable (it's not) I believe we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
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Rykan

Member
NPD in the late 90's (not mid) was receiving as they do now, insight of the US market (not NA) getting their information from other market research and their own through retailers, and was then and is now, the most accurate for unit sales (though they don't openly report unit sales anymore) and considering they also match competitors, which magic-box also used, it just shows further the data is accurate.

You have no reason to suspect there is anything wrong with their FF7 sales. Which seems to be the only reason why you are downplaying NPD. While also bringing up NA sales when that's separate from US sales, and was divided for that reason with Canada having it's own section.
I have every reason to suspect that the numbers are incorrect, because they would require the absurd conclusion that Final Fantasy 7's sales in Europe match those of the US, which, as explained before, is extremely unlikely. The fact of the matter is that the NPD in the 90's received its numbers from larger retailers and that there were a significant amount of stores that they did not get their data from. So no, they are not accurate.
Which is reasonable looking at the current 10 million+ sales by the later 2000's (4.5M vs.5M shipped vs. sold), it's only an issue depending on how you look at the initial 9.8M.

That 5.8M NA+EU that you agree with, is correct, it's NA+Europe, not the US. US is not NA, for some reason you want to put them together. Canada+Mexico isn't only 300 sales. Especially Canada where big games added substantially to final numbers, for all PS1 games. Just because the US is the bulk doesn't mean we ignore the other countries. Again, N64 US sales contradict Nintendo's N64 NA sales, because NA is NOT the US.

The numbers are not flawed.
They are. For one, You're including Mexico. Despite several attempts, I've been unable to locate even a trace that Final Fantasy 7 was ever even released in Mexico in the first place. A Spanish language version does exist, but it appears to be PAL, which means it's European. I'm excluding Mexico from the conversation until I find evidence that it was even released there in large quantities. In 1997, Canada's population was like what...Little more than 10% of the US? Let's say, for the sake of argument that its video game market is also like 10% of the US. So we can add like 250k units to the NPD's numbers and that would bring us to what...2.75m? We know that the total numbers for FF7 for NA/EU is 5.8m, so the only way that the NPD numbers are correct is if Final Fantasy 7 sold more in Europe than North America which, considering hardware split between regions, no history of the franchise, genre popularity, language barrier, etc etc, is extremely unlikely
You're whole argument continues to be invalid because you constantly keep ignoring, intentionally, that the US numbers are not NA numbers, so you keep trying to mislead by trying to create confusion fusing the two together.
I'm not ignoring them at all. You're just greatly overexaggerating the amount of sales that they could possibly add to the numbers of NA.
Again the US is not NA. I also didn't compare anything to Halo 3, you are not taking my words CLEARLY talking about another USERS hyperbolic claims in this conversation, and cutting that part out to pretend I'm comparing FF7 to Halo 3, which can't work because I spend most of this discussion saying that while FF sold great in the US it wasn't "that big" which is the exact opposite of comparing it to Halo 3. Not sure why you're doing that if you believe you have a reasonable argument.
Who is comparing Final Fantasy 7 to Halo in this thread?
I also didn't deny the games important, your whole charade of posts is trying to throw in arguments I never made into a bunch of speculative texts attacking an NPD chart. To make it seem like I argued about something I never did.
You've claimed that Final Fantasy 7 was "never that big". You're absolutely downplaying what its achieved.
Example



There isn't a graph, that was a very clear expression and it was clear what I meant when i made that expression. You pretending I was talking about an actual graph is only there so you can lie and claim I said something I didn't. (not to mention completely making your own reality by taking the stuff I said about pokemon completely out of context, when i was only mentioning it in regards to the growing popularity of anime)
No shit there isn't an actual graph. You are talking about a "Relationship" between Final Fantasy and Pokemon and how this is somehow related to 90's anime. Final Fantasy 7's popularity has no relationship to Pokemon: It came out a year (And became popular instantly) before the pokemon Anime came out. You can obviously argue that the Pokemon Anime significantly contributed to the success of the Pokemon game, but not that this so called "Sudden" rise of Anime popularity had anything to do with Final Fantasy 7. It's not an Anime game. I don't understand why you just don't concede that this was an absurd claim. You can't name any other JRPGs that were supposedly massive successes due to this sudden increase in Anime popularity (Pokemon is a seperate case, as mentioned above), you can't explain how the sales of FF games/JRPGs haven't increased even further despite the Anime market growing larger and larger in Western territories. So all you have now is this weird claim that Final Fantasy 7's success is partly due to Anime and this ONLY goes for Final Fantasy 7. I don't even want to know what kind of weird stuff you'd come up with to justify the deviantart remark.
I'm going to go with reliable NPD numbers. For the US (which isn't NA), and since you haven't shown how NPD is unreliable (it's not) I believe we'll just have to agree to disagree.
You haven't shown how NPD is reliable, and considering it clearly clashes with SE's own numbers, I'm gonna go with the correct belief that the numbers are inaccurate.
 
You've claimed that Final Fantasy 7 was "never that big". You're absolutely downplaying what its achieved.

Nope, said it sold great many times, just wasn't that big, the chart proves it, this isn't debatable. You didn't downplay anything or add anything else. I was countering hyperbole by another user who basically said the life of the PS1 was basically saved and created by this one game, which is false. If me not agreeing with that myth makes you believe I'm downplaying something than maybe you might be too biased towards the game.

You haven't shown how NPD is reliable, and considering it clearly clashes with SE's own numbers,

No they don't clash, because you keep mixing in bad faith US and NA, two different sales tracking, as well as Canada, which was also separately tracked You have no evidence NPD isn't reliable other than not liking the chart, which isn't only NPD and comprised of credible sources by magic box. All while spiinning by words and taking sections out of context.

You don't have an argument, that chart is accurate for the time. FF7 sold great, it wasn't that big, nor as ANOTHER USER said earlier in the thread did it save or single-handedly win Sony (in the US he said) the console war (which they were already winning) with the N64, and his claim it led to playstatiion games smashing N64 games, based on nothing (and the fact that N64's top games sold more than the top PS games for obvious reasons).

But let me know when you find prove NPD wasn't reliable, in the late 90's, for US sales, which is what I said, and what the chart I posted said, not NA,
 
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Rykan

Member
Nope, said it sold great many times, just wasn't that big, the chart proves it, this isn't debatable. You didn't downplay anything or add anything else. I was countering hyperbole by another user who basically said the life of the PS1 was basically saved and created by this one game, which is false. If me not agreeing with that myth makes you believe I'm downplaying something than maybe you might be too biased towards the game.
Your claim that it was "Never that big" was posted in the first page of this thread. The so called "Hyperbolic" claim that you seem to address was posted much later in this thread. This is nonsense.
No they don't clash, because you keep mixing in bad faith US and NA, two different sales tracking, as well as Canada, which was also separately tracked You have no evidence NPD isn't reliable other than not liking the chart, which isn't only NPD and comprised of credible sources by magic box. All while spiinning by words and taking sections out of context.
I'm surprised that you're still trying to pull these tricks, considering your track record.
I'm not mixing "US and NA". I have addressed this point repeatedly, which you continue to ignore because all you do is pick and choose, and yet you STILL keep insisting that I mix them up in bad faith. As is par for the course, you skip over the parts you don't like. But don't worry: I'll repeat it one more time just for you.

Final Fantasy 7 was not released in Mexico. When Square referred to North America, it means the US and Canada. The NPD figures you cite says 2.45m for the US. The most that Canada could have possibly added to that number is about 200k - 300k. Which means that the only way the NPD numbers are correct is if Final Fantasy 7 somehow sold more in Europe than in North America to reach 5.8m. Again, considering factors: No history of the franchise in the territory, Smaller hardware instalbase, JRPGS in general being significantly less popular there compared to NA, Every Final Fantays selling more in NA than EU and the fact that the game was only translated, aside from English, into 3 European Languages, makes that incredibly unlikely.

You have absolutely zero evidence that the numbers from NPD are correct, and you're pretty much forced to acknowledge and admit that NPD does not track every sale and they do not get their data from publishers either.
You don't have an argument, that chart is accurate for the time. FF7 sold great, it wasn't that big, nor as ANOTHER USER said earlier in the thread did it save or single-handedly win Sony (in the US he said) the console war (which they were already winning) with the N64, and his claim it led to playstatiion games smashing N64 games, based on nothing (and the fact that N64's top games sold more than the top PS games for obvious reasons).

But let me know when you find prove NPD wasn't reliable, in the late 90's, for US sales, which is what I said, and what the chart I posted said, not NA,
You're grasping at straws here. You claimed that the game was "Never that big" long before such claims were made. A game that sold 6m copies in NA and EU was absolutely "That big" considering typical sales of that era.

Hey let me know when you can find proof that the NPD numbers are 100% correct, because as long as you're forced to acknowledge that NPD can't possibly track every sale, only tracks major retailers and doesn't get its data from publishers either, it's by definition inaccurate. Even more so when compared to SE's own numbers, as explained above, which you will undoubtedly ignore and pretend isn't there.
 
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Oof85

Member
All of those games were the best sellers of the generation. Millions each, they trounced Nintendo, and FF7 led the charge.

You’re trying to rewrite history with no understanding of the gaming market at the time. FF7 was the most well known and highly marketed game in the country outside of Mario.

You don’t understand proportional representation in sales. There weren’t 400+ million PSX/N64’s/DC’s like there are ps4/5/Switch/Xbox consoles. Its effect on the market and popularity in American gaming was huge.
It swung the console wars to Playstation in America, and no amount of you pretending otherwise will change it.
You seriously need to actually look at a sales record from that era.

Nintendo was all over the best sellers lists. Normally at the top.

Ps1 had MORE yes, but 64 was topping the lists in a big way back then.

Hence Nintendo making more money that generation than Sony did.
 
Your claim that it was "Never that big" was posted in the first page of this thread. The so called "Hyperbolic" claim that you seem to address was posted much later in this thread.

Why are you pretending you don't know what "never that big" means after I said multiple times that it sold good and posted a chart? You can't make this up and twist it, you're trying to add things to the conversation I never said so you can claim I'm downplaying or said it didn't sell well. ll because you don't have an argument.

You're grasping at straws here. You claimed that the game was "Never that big" long before such claims were made.

From the very first reply I made in this thread outside the OP you skipped and are lying about,

That's most japanese leaning internet boards online, people think Metal Gear Solid PS1 was bigger than it was because of fan journalists and a loud minority, but it lost to Tony Hawk, Spyro, Frogger, driver, and funny enough FF7. https://www.neogaf.com/threads/foun...p-nds-and-gba-games-through-2007-usa.1639410/

My point from the start was it wasn't big and I posted that same chart (actually charts) since reply #1.

it wasn't that big, and the person i was quoting before you jumped in to twist context, was making hyperbolic statements, something you haven't addressed ONCE because you know that's the case and it screws up what you're trying to do. You're whole position doesn't really exist, because it depends on you misleading about what was actually said, and trying to pretend I wasn't responding to anyone so you can change the context, allowing you to fabricate an argument. problem is that doesn't work if I don't follow you through your silliness.

Another example,

Final Fantasy 7 was not released in Mexico. When Square referred to North America, it means the US and Canada. The NPD figures you cite says 2.45m for the US. The most that Canada could have possibly added to that number is about 200k - 300k.

Not only is the first sentence irrelevant, but the last one is something you have no evidence of whatsoever. You have no clue what's counted for NA and how much Canada contributed. Your rant about EU was pointless because I never brought up the EU, but you just spend paragraphs acting like i claimed something about the Eu or EU sales, I didn't.

Your crusade against NPD in the late 90's is noted, but it's pointless and completely false.

You are projecting a lack of evidence by not providing one actual source yourself that wasn't already talked about before you entered, and claiming there's a conspiracy when there is none.

let me know when you have something of substance next time. I'll go with NPD of the time (which you messed up talking about an earlier point) and the fact the charts are US, not NA, and the fact they are reliable, and the fact you dodged twice that Magic Box also added other sources to increase the accuracy and not just NPD, showing me you are just denying charts that don't align with what you want to believe.

I'll go with the facts, have a nice day.
 
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