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[remember_spinal]

After we’ve had trailers for FF16, Silent Hill 2, and Dead Space the past week I’ve been seeing a lot of complaints about current gen games looking like last gen games. I’ve also seen non-stop complaining about the cross-gen game period. Is it me or do people have short term memories? Haven’t games always taken a few years to really start pushing consoles to their limit?

Even Horizon Zero Dawn was a big current gen showpiece on the PS4/PS4 Pro when it came out and in 2022, they managed to put HFW out that looks so much better, and honestly one of the best looking games on current gen consoles also. The games that come out in the first 3 years of a consoles life are not gonna be the jaw dropping ‘next gen’ experience you had going from the SNES to N64, it will continue to be a gradual climb year after year despite the platform its released on.

I think some of you just have to admit that you lost your love for gaming and that you’ll never get that feeling back from when you were 10 years old. The absolute obsession with being “blown away” by graphics combined with the impatience for how long it takes studios to make those games, doesn’t seem to be worth it for a lot of you.

 

[wvnative]

Yeah it's just people's short term memory. And diminishing returns, I think dead space and SH2 look great, but people do need to keep in mind your not gonna have a PS1-PS2 level jump again.

 

[AV]

Trying to explain diminishing returns to a lot of people just goes nowhere. They will still be complaining about games not "looking" next-gen in 5 years because it's not the same leap they've been used to. Nothing but hot air.

 

[Pelta88]

I blame PlayStation.

Demon's Souls
Miles Morales
Horizon
Returnal
etc etc etc

Are causing gamers to benchmark lesser games to that higher level of visual fidelity.

 

[adamsapple]

I think some of you just have to admit that you lost your love for gaming and that you’ll never get that feeling back from when you were 10 years old. The absolute obsession with being “blown away” by graphics combined with the impatience for how long it takes studios to make those games, doesn’t seem to be worth it for a lot of you.

Bruh you can't just call out slimysnake like that

 

[hemo memo]

Diminishing returns. Just focus on delivering a solid performing-low glitchs experience as you should because you are focusing on fewer consoles

 

[kiphalfton]

I blame PlayStation.

Demon's Souls
Miles Morales
Horizon
Returnal
etc etc etc

Are causing gamers to benchmark lesser games to that higher level of visual fidelity.

Using Returnal as a metric for graphics

 

[MiguelItUp]

As more time passes, technology advances, and people age, the more I feel like a lot of people just can't be pleased. Lol.

I was always under the impression that this gen would get better lighting, framerate, resolution, and just overall fidelity as a whole. I was never expecting some kind of insane and radical jump like we've seen in previous gens. I understand some people want best of the best, but even at their "best" I've seen people say they're not good enough, lmao.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

The actual current gen games look current gen.
The others look like enhanced PS4 Pro games.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Funny some of my all time favorite games don't have great graphics to begin with, give me you know an actual good game first please

 

[angrod14]

I blame NAUGHTY GOATS. My mind was blown 2 years ago with TLOU Part II and nothing has come close to the visual impact that made me feel.

 

[Pelta88]

Using Returnal as a metric for graphics

You must have never played it.

The sum of all Returnal's parts combine to make that ip visually incredible. Especially on my OLED.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

I just think people need to not only focus on graphics but scale. Starfield is next gen. Last gen games towards the end were gorgeous. If we can get games with bigger scopes that look like TLOU2 at good fidelity and frame rate I'm happy.

 

[SafeOrAlone]

My issue in regards to cross-gen games has less to do with graphics and more to do with holding back the processing power.

The new God of War - say it wants to have 30 enemies on screen at once....Well, doesn't have that option, because it has to run on PS4.

Cross-gen holds back game design.

 

[Punished Miku]

They have a point, but they don't really seem to realize the true cause. We probably are seeing a slightly slower uptick in next-gen games with more cross-gen stuff. A lot of is selective memory loss like you say. The PS4 had virtually nothing for me for 2 years.

But the writing has been on the wall for years, publicly talked about openly in countless articles. AAA development is becoming unsustainable. Increasing the cost of the games isn't some guarantee of premium quality at $70, as you can all see with Gotham Knights. It's just a price increase, and that's it. The only thing changing is the amount of money leaving your pocket. At the same time they will increase monetization with MTXs, DLC, battle passes and more, and it wont be because of subscriptions. It'll be because the games take 6-7 years to make now. The systems are costing more than ever as well, at $500 and already talk of them being underpowered and mid-gen refreshes coming. The marketing about raytracing has proven to be literally nothing. These systems wont be able to use it in any meaningful way, ever. PS5 is even still raising the price of the console, not cutting it. The cost of every aspect of AAA gaming is going up, and you're not seeing any meaningful return in exchange. The downsides continue. The risky budgets lead to obvious homogenization of genres, and game design. Open world, cinematic, suitable for adaption to TV / film. Hide in the grass and become invisible. Follow the glowing footsteps.

People are chasing a feeling that doesn't exist. Chasing elite level graphics and budgets, but they get something like Horizon 2 and all start dropping off before even completing the game. They can't capture that sense of wonder they had as a teenager gaming, and they think mistakenly that it's a lack of budget or lack of next gen features. It's actually the budget and next gen features that are causing them to like gaming less and less. At the rate we're going, Rockstar will drop from 1 game per gen to 0.5. We're actually close to less than 1 game per team per gen. Think about that.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Only daddy Sony will set the benchmark of Next-Gen AAA Single Player Cinematic Geims.

 

[remember_spinal]

My issue in regards to cross-gen games has less to do with graphics and more to do with holding back the processing power.

The new God of War - say it wants to have 30 enemies on screen at once....Well, doesn't have that option, because it has to run on PS4.

Cross-gen holds back game design.

But then you have a developer like Asobo that will brag about how many rats they can put on screen thanks to next gen hardware and then face backlash because the game can’t run at 60fps

 

[Arachnid]

idgaf about graphics as long as it looks good enough. I don't need devs taking half a decade or more to make a game look photo realistic. I'd prefer that time go into translating atmosphere/art direction and crafting more intricate gameplay systems. The people who always hyper-fixated on graphics and put it on the same tier of importance as the aforementioned always weirded me out.

That said, I also believe old hardware can hold back more intricate gameplay systems, so take me into the next gen only phase.

 

[Punished Miku]

But then you have a developer like Asobo that will brag about how many rats they can put on screen thanks to next gen hardware and then face backlash because the game can’t run at 60fps

I can't say I played through part 1 and thought, "needs more rats."

 

[remember_spinal]

They have a point, but they don't really seem to realize the true cause. We probably are seeing a slightly slower uptick in next-gen games with more cross-gen stuff. A lot of is selective memory loss like you say. The PS4 had virtually nothing for me for 2 years.

But the writing has been on the wall for years, publicly talked about openly in countless articles. AAA development is becoming unsustainable. Increasing the cost of the games isn't some guarantee of premium quality at $70, as you can all see with Gotham Knights. It's just a price increase, and that's it. The only thing changing is the amount of money leaving your pocket. At the same time they will increase monetization with MTXs, DLC, battle passes and more, and it wont be because of subscriptions. It'll be because the games take 6-7 years to make now. The systems are costing more than ever as well, at $500 and already talk of them being underpowered and mid-gen refreshes coming. The marketing about raytracing has proven to be literally nothing. These systems wont be able to use it in any meaningful way, ever. PS5 is even still raising the price of the console, not cutting it. The cost of every aspect of AAA gaming is going up, and you're not seeing any meaningful return in exchange. The downsides continue. The risky budgets lead to obvious homogenization of genres, and game design. Open world, cinematic, suitable for adaption to TV / film. Hide in the grass and become invisible. Follow the glowing footsteps.

People are chasing a feeling that doesn't exist. Chasing elite level graphics and budgets, but they get something like Horizon 2 and all start dropping off before even completing the game. They can't capture that sense of wonder they had as a teenager gaming, and they think mistakenly that it's a lack of budget or lack of next gen features. It's actually the budget and next gen features that are causing them to like gaming less and less. At the rate we're going, Rockstar will drop from 1 game per gen to 0.5. We're actually close to less than 1 game per team per gen. Think about that.

I truly hope GTA 6 is ‘next gen’ enough for people, because they won’t get another one until the 2030’s if they’re lucky.

 

[Jigsaah]

I think that while there is diminishing returns right now, we've seen previews of thing in UE5 for example that we have not seen the likes of in many released games. I'll say that Ratchet and Clank and Horizon Forbidden West looks next gen.

So overall I feel like it's still a bit early to tell how pronounced these diminishing returns may be. There are other factors as well. Costs of producing games of that graphic quality can't be cheap and presents a huge gamble for developers should their very pretty game flop.

I think the best route is going with tried an true franchises and betting the farm on going fully next gen on those games. I say this, but it hasn't really been happening so far. God of War: Ragnarok is still cross gen. Very well established and well received franchise, but being the 2nd game of the reboot series...my assumption is that they spent a boat load on the first game and now with most of the ground work in place, this game is more about gaining major profit from the sales.

I would give it a year or two and see where we land then.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Bruh you can't just call out slimysnake like that

Jaysius was the OG grump though. Slimy just writes a thesis on it.

 

[Fbh]

People always want to bitch and complain. I assure you when we get some proper next gen looking and feeling games they'll start complaining about them being 30fps on consoles. Until we get pro consoles and then they'll complain the base consoles are holding them back. Right now it seems a lot of people want mindblowing next gen looking games with next gen physics and next gen gameplay but they also need to run at least at 1800p and locked 60fps, all on a $500 console.

With that said I do think a part of it is diminishing returns. IMO the Ps4 did have more "next gen" looking stuff in its first 2 years than the Ps5. Games like Killzone Shadow Fall, Driveclub, The Order 1886 and Infamous Second Son were a massive step up from what we had before. I mean you could really release The Order 1886 at a higher res and 60fps as a Ps5/SX title and it wouldn't look out of place.
The funny thing though is that while the visual jump on Ps5 might not have been as big, the quality of the exclusives we've gotten so far has been much better IMO. I'll take Demon Souls Remake, Miles Morales, Returnal, Rift Apart, Forbidden West and Gow Ragnarok (all at 60fps I might add) over the early Ps4 games any day.

For me though the cross gen part is annoying more because of scope than graphics. Like will Gow Ragnarok still have constant "squeezing through places" sequences to accommodate the slow HDD on the Ps4?

 

[MHubert]

Some do indeed have a problem with memory since a lot of the people who bitch about current gen games not looking good enough or the consoles being underpowered are the same who spend their groundhog days saying that any form of ray tracing and ssd's were console fanboy delusions.

 

[Ezekiel_]

Yeah, selective memory, multiplatform games, and basically games that aren't Sony first party seem to be the culprit.

You look at Sony's first party, and there's absolutely no doubting that it's current gen.

Demon's Souls released on PS5 launch, with locked 60 fps and looks stunning.

Spiderman R and MM, Returnal, Ratchet and Clank, Horizon 2, GT7, soon to be released Ragnarok all look stunning and proper current gen, with 60fps modes, ray tracing, etc.

 

[64bitmodels]

The games that come out in the first 3 years of a consoles life are not gonna be the jaw dropping ‘next gen’ experience you had going from the SNES to N64

they dont need to but at the very least they can be exclusive to the new console and take advantage of its features rather than continually go to PS4(and in the case of the new xbox pretty much provide almost reason to get one over an Xbone)
and i mean...

the first 3 years of a console used to be a dramatic change. Was Mario World not a gigantic leap from Mario 3? that came out within 3 years of the console's release

 

[arkhamguy123]

60FPS. I know people don't like to hear it and I'm not making the 30FPS vs 60FPS argument here but that even for your next gen only games will hold them back. People can still be blown away. The 2020 UE5 demo with the elf lady. The matrix demo. Blew people away and to this day nothing comes close. And 2 years later for the former. The 2020 demo? 1440p/30fps. Matrix? 1080p/30fps. But gamers will cry if a developer targets 30fps now to push fidelity. It is what it is. How graphically impressive (at the time) would killzone 2 or uncharted 3 be on the ps3 if they were targeting 60fps? How about the order 1886, the last of us 2, ghosts of Tsushima for the ps4? They'd be lucky to look half as impressive (at the time) if they all had to have a mandated 60fps mode. You see my point?

The chasm between current graphical fidelity and high quality movie cgi is LARGE still, ergo, there is still substantial room for improvement. We haven't hit the fabled "diminishing returns" plateau yet. Not even close.

 

[remember_spinal]

they dont need to but at the very least they can be exclusive to the new console and take advantage of its features rather than continually go to PS4(and in the case of the new xbox pretty much provide almost reason to get one over an Xbone)
and i mean...

the first 3 years of a console used to be a dramatic change. Was Mario World not a gigantic leap from Mario 3? that came out within 3 years of the console's release

Yeah, thats why people are talking about diminishing returns, the bar was on the floor back then. It took a few months to make video games, now it takes years.

The size and scope of games (even the ones people here shit on like Gotham Knights) have increased past a lot of big movie productions. It takes more time to make a AAA game than to make a movie like Infinity War.

 

[rkofan87]

Yeah it's just people's short term memory. And diminishing returns, I think dead space and SH2 look great, but people do need to keep in mind your not gonna have a PS1-PS2 level jump again.

this and imo sh2 eats dead space in the looks

 

[remember_spinal]

The chasm between current graphical fidelity and high quality movie cgi is LARGE still, ergo, there is still substantial room for improvement. We haven't hit the fabled "diminishing returns" plateau yet. Not even close.

this is true, you can look at even the CGI commercial for horizon, ragnarok, witcher 3 as more evidence of that, but is that a platform issue or a money/time/talent issue?

We know how expensive and how time consuming it is to model something like thanos who has a total of 40 minutes in Infinity War. Do people expect it will be easy to make things like that for 30+ hour games? Because of course if games are like 12 hours long thats also a problem

 

[Danjin44]

I couldn't care less If I like its art direction then I'm happy, it doesn't matter if its graphics is"next gen" or not.

 

[64bitmodels]

The size and scope of games (even the ones people here shit on like Gotham Knights) have increased past a lot of big movie productions. It takes more time to make a AAA game than to make a movie like Infinity War.

i can understand where youre coming from, and i do agree.
but using Gotham Knights as an example is like.... what??? that game is clearly low budget and underfunded. i don't think it costed more to make than...idk, Simpsons hit and run from the early 2000s.

 

[Dr_Salt]

But but this is what Sweeny sold me, I feel betrayed!!

 

[bender]

Everyone wanted backwards compatibility and this is the reward.

 

[Swift_Star]

I’m fine playing ys8 which is a vita game so I don’t care.

 

[Punished Miku]

i can understand where youre coming from, and i do agree.
but using Gotham Knights as an example is like.... what??? that game is clearly low budget and underfunded. i don't think it costed more to make than...idk, Simpsons hit and run from the early 2000s.

I bet they spent a fair bit on it. WB doesn't hold back on budgets that much. MK is high budget. All the Arkham games looked high budget. Rocksteady has been getting paid for 7 years to work on a game.

 

[Fahdis]

Instead of focusing on the GRAFIX these need to be put into the limelight:

- Animations
- AI
- Physics (Hair and Clothes included)
- Post-Processing Effects without Lag
- Customization in Games (mods)

Thanks.

 

[Captain Toad]

Using Returnal as a metric for graphics

It's performance with the amount of stuff happening is impressive

 

[Mowcno]

I'm just wondering how many people complaining about cross-gen will also start complaining about games being 30fps again. Because that's what's going to happen when cross-gen ends.

 

[TheRedRiders]

Gaf’s cross-gen lover incoming….you know who I’m talking about.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I think we expected raytracing to really help with enhancing games at this point given general diminishing returns, but most games don't even utilize rtx because the consoles can't really afford it.

You look at details like hair and facial features and there's been such a small change from generation to generation that it isn't really compelling at all at this point.

I think Demon's Souls and to a degree Ratchet look very next-gen, but most games have left a lot to be desired.

I can remember playing onimusha, FFX, and MGS2 demo and being absolutely blown away.

Metal Gear Solid 4, GTA 4, ironically the original dead space, all pushed the next gen really well just a couple years later too.

I think Ps4/X1 is where we started to see really diminished value, but also because those systems came out so weak. That excuse wasn't supposed to the case with this gen.

 

[Aenima]

Thats what you get when u have a mid gen hardware upgrade, and then games targeting native 4k and/or 60fps. You end up with diminishing returns in graphics.
We still get some visual impressive stuff, it just dont feel like a generation leap.

 

[arkhamguy123]

this is true, you can look at even the CGI commercial for horizon, ragnarok, witcher 3 as more evidence of that, but is that a platform issue or a money/time/talent issue?

We know how expensive and how time consuming it is to model something like thanos who has a total of 40 minutes in Infinity War. Do people expect it will be easy to make things like that for 30+ hour games? Because of course if games are like 12 hours long thats also a problem

Either way, you can have the best money/time/talent you won't get the fidelity of those aforementioned CGI trailers running at the oh so needed 60FPS mode on console for a very long time. Like PS7 timeframe at least. No other gen has done this 60FPS staple thing and what do you know, no other gen has had such a tepid "that's it..?" reaction from people regarding graphics. People gotta put 2 and 2 together.

 

[GymWolf]

These console are just not powerfull enough to show a real jump now that diminishing returns are a thing, especially if they aim for 4k or 60 frames, end of the story.


But it is still too early to talk, i expect big things from the usual wizards in the next 3-5 years when crossgen is not gonna be a thing anymore.

 

[buenoblue]

Just playing at 60fps is next gen enough for me

 

[tommib]

I blame PlayStation.

Demon's Souls
Miles Morales
Horizon
Returnal
etc etc etc

Are causing gamers to benchmark lesser games to that higher level of visual fidelity.

You laugh but Bluepoint was very clear on interviews that they wanted to set THE graphical benchmark for the console with Demon’s Souls.

 

[TGO]

Silent Hill 2 looks NextGen
It's clearly not possible on current gen without some serious downgrades.
And the only people complaining are those with delusions of grandeur with their Gfx card.
Yes you gonna have to dial back your resolution/graphic quality if you want those frame rates you was getting on games based on a decade old hardware.
or you can upgrade.

 

[Umbasaborne]

Deadspace looks amazing lol, are people blind?

 

[kyliethicc]

After we’ve had trailers for FF16, Silent Hill 2, and Dead Space the past week I’ve been seeing a lot of complaints about current gen games looking like last gen games. I’ve also seen non-stop complaining about the cross-gen game period. Is it me or do people have short term memories? Haven’t games always taken a few years to really start pushing consoles to their limit?

Even Horizon Zero Dawn was a big current gen showpiece on the PS4/PS4 Pro when it came out and in 2022, they managed to put HFW out that looks so much better, and honestly one of the best looking games on current gen consoles also. The games that come out in the first 3 years of a consoles life are not gonna be the jaw dropping ‘next gen’ experience you had going from the SNES to N64, it will continue to be a gradual climb year after year despite the platform its released on.

I think some of you just have to admit that you lost your love for gaming and that you’ll never get that feeling back from when you were 10 years old. The absolute obsession with being “blown away” by graphics combined with the impatience for how long it takes studios to make those games, doesn’t seem to be worth it for a lot of you.

just dm SlimySnake next time lol

 

[64bitmodels]

SlimySnake they beatin you ass in the thread replies