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There is a lot of tension right now between developers and consumers. Something needs to change

Cyberpunkd

Gold Member
Why not tho? It's ultimately the publishers that get the final say when a game's released and what state it's in.
And the publisher gives a certain amount of control to the developer, least they be accused of micromanaging. People hate Jason Schreier here but it was he that once said: ‘The most predatory micro transaction schemes come from developers, not business executives.’.

In the end it is the developer that is tasked with executing the vision according to the publisher goals. Developers find it very attractive to appear as ‘tormented geniuses, fighting against soulless publishers’. As always the truth is a little bit more nuanced.
 
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brian0057

Banned
I'm assuming that's a huge amount of sarcasm.

That said, people complain about everything, always have, the relationship hasn't changed at all.

There's a lot of valid criticism that you can level at Nintendo.
Their copyright enforcement is questionable at best, the worst online service you've ever seen in your life, and even their patent infringement being some of the biggest.

The quality of their games is not one of them. You may not like them or their games but they, for the most part, produce some of the most fun an polished games in this god forsaken industry.
 

GrayFoxPL

Member
It all breaks down to patience from customers, or lack there of.

Right now. People want games right now, so devs(with "initiative" from publishers) give them to costumers. Of course they are unfinished, have lots of bugs, missing lots of features.

But the bugs will be addressed in the upcoming weeks/months. Some features may be added as paid dlc. Game will be finished in about a year.

What's funny it will be released as "Complete Edition".

But now, right now. Give it right now.

I Want It Now Parks And Recreation GIF



Do Want Give It To Me GIF
 
The amount of lies that have come from developers is outrageous over the last 10 years so I feel they are part of the problem. Part of the machine. At least the lead devs.
 
It all breaks down to patience from customers, or lack there of.

Right now. People want games right now, so devs(with "initiative" from publishers) give them to costumers. Of course they are unfinished, have lots of bugs, missing lots of features.

But the bugs will be addressed in the upcoming weeks/months. Some features may be added as paid dlc. Game will be finished in about a year.

What's funny it will be released as "Complete Edition".

But now, right now. Give it right now.

I Want It Now Parks And Recreation GIF



Do Want Give It To Me GIF
Problem is when these big bugs and issues never get fixed. It's too easy and tempting for the developers to move on to their next game and expansion to keep the profits rolling in then to go back and fix stuff. Hitman 3 is a recent offender: they never bothered to fix the HDR. Same reason why we don't get many 60 fps patches for next gen consoles.
 
I agree that the onus is ultimatley on them. I do try to maintain a little empathy because i know how
Hard it can be. It just sucks that weve gotten to a point where the people making the product and the people buying the product have active disdain for eachother
I think the industry could help itself by being more honest when there is a problem. Real hobbyists, like everyone in here, will see through bs excuses and dig even harder for the truth.

Another good idea might be to limit interaction between an unhappy customer and that egotistical middle manager from the dev team. You know, the guy that tells current and potential customers to not buy the game or other nonsense.
 

levyjl1988

Banned
With the shoddy quality from recent games I doubt anything of quality will come out from companies who bought major studios. They are just going to peddle the most minimum viable product tolerable and ship it broken.
 

fart town usa

Gold Member
Is there really a lot of tension though? Serious question because I don't play too many modern games, mostly just read about them. I'm also not on social media outside of GAF but this place is a bubble so to speak so I don't view this place as representing gaming as a whole.

I feel like I see more praise than negativity surrounding something like Cyberpunk, and even I bought that game out of morbid curiosity.

I feel like younger gamers just put up with stuff cause they don't know any better, older/active gamers complain but still put up with it, and then there's 'ancient' gamers like me who read about things but never actually play the games that have hype trains and disappoint people at launch.

That being said though, studios need to either restrain ambitious aspects or just stop overpromising and under delivering. Fans also need to keep their expectations in check. It's a two-way street for sure but I'd say it's like 65/35 with gamers being the latter and the former isn't all on the developers but also the marketers, gaming outlets, and bureaucrats who are outside the actual development process.

I would say the actual developers get the shortest end of the stick, they're faceless people who shoulder the bulk of the stress, do all the work, and have to face the wrath of gamers and higher ups if things don't turn out well. That would suck. Imagine working hours on something for like 5 years and you just get shit on by everyone when it actually releases.
 
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BossLackey

Gold Member
The change that needs to be made is that people need to stop pre-ordering games.

Full stop.

It doesn't matter if you "know" you'll love a game, or if you "trust" a certain company. Fucking knock it off.

I'd like to think that the consistent, repeated trend of recent AAA releases shitting themselves would spur this notion along, but after reading that the recent Destiny 2 expansion already has over a million pre-orders, well, it's obvious to me that people aren't learning shit.

So, you get what you pay for. If gamers keep shelling out money for unproven products, then companies will keep selling unproven products. It's really that simple. If you feed the demand, you feed the supply.

Let the game release, check reviews and feedback. Make an educated purchase.

STOP. PRE-ORDERING. FUCKING. GAMES.
And the thing is, pre-ordering isn't even necessary most of the time unless it's a Collector's Edition. That goes quadruple for PC games. Why on earth would someone pre-order a digital game!?
 

THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
Nintendo doesn't have that problem.

And when they do, they sit down and make better games, not complain that the community is toxic.

You live in a fantasy world, there is tons of feedback from customers not happy with what Nintendo is putting out in terms of Software - sequels of sequels, no original content, rehashed games from prior generations with new skins, no updates to graphics due to outdated ancient hardware, the list is endless. Certainly they ignore all the feedback they've received on virtual console/back catalog.
Make better games, LOL. Yes they have a few studios that make consistently great playing games but I would contend their disconnect with their fans have never been greater due to their switch success and greed.

I don't think I've ever heard Xbox or Sony say their gamers are toxic either.
 

Catphish

Member
And the thing is, pre-ordering isn't even necessary most of the time unless it's a Collector's Edition. That goes quadruple for PC games. Why on earth would someone pre-order a digital game!?
Exactly. The game will still be there for you in a day or two, if you must absolutely must have it. Take the time to read some reviews, see some footage & commentary on youtube or something.

Whatever free bullshit companies offer you in exchange for your pre-order is never worth the risk of buying a piece of shit you're now stuck with. They're preying on your "fear of missing out". Don't give in.
 

fart town usa

Gold Member
You live in a fantasy world, there is tons of feedback from customers not happy with what Nintendo is putting out in terms of Software - sequels of sequels, no original content, rehashed games from prior generations with new skins, no updates to graphics due to outdated ancient hardware, the list is endless. Certainly they ignore all the feedback they've received on virtual console/back catalog.
Make better games, LOL. Yes they have a few studios that make consistently great playing games but I would contend their disconnect with their fans have never been greater due to their switch success and greed.

I don't think I've ever heard Xbox or Sony say their gamers are toxic either.
Yea, Nintendo is honestly the one gaming company that I go out of my way to buy their games used. It is what it is but I don't like how Nintendo treats their fans. Going after Rom sites is one thing but the whole shutting down Melee tournaments, striking YouTube channels for non-monetized music videos, half-assed ports and emulation services, artificial supply constraints, Wii Music (lol).

I'm not saying Sony or MS don't do dick moves but if they do I'm not really aware of it.
 
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akbennyewu

Neo Member
Part of me misses gaming prior to the internet, cartridges and discs with zero chance of getting updated truly put the onus on developers to get the game right from the very beginning.

Well, except for ET of course.
 

TheDreadLord

Gold Member
Devs are like any other workforce. Therefore, I have the same expectancy as I have towards any other category. If I spend money on something I would expect to receive something finished.
 

ZehDon

Gold Member
It's difficult to see an answer to the tension. On one hand developers need to get their shit together, release products that aren't full of scummy business practices. Or hey, how about releasing games that just work properly, that aren't a complete shit show at launch...
This is the crux of it for me. It feels that every major release - be it single player or multiplayer - launches in a terrible state, players need to basically revolt and bombard the developer across every forum and social media platform until they acknowledge, and then we get some kind of vague "road map" with the issues hand waved away.

Case in point would be Microsoft's biggest franchise: Halo. After the longest development cycle in the series' history, Halo Infinite finally launched. It has the least amount of content, the least amount of modes, the least amount of features of any Halo title - including the original on the OG Xbox. That would be fine if what we got was actually a working product. Halo Infinite's multiplayer is, fundamentally, broken. Hell, the single player on its own has a litany of laughable technical issues that no self-respecting developer ever would've let go to market, to say nothing of the low effort nature of the entire endeavour. The optimistic timeline for the fundamental fixes so the game actually works? Six months. And those just got "delayed". Road map for fixing up the single player issues? The developer hasn't even acknowledged them. Timeline for missing features? "We'll keep you updated". And the icing on the cake? Asking for a working game that has at least the same features as the previous entry is now considered "toxic". If the biggest franchise for Microsoft, with the biggest budget, and the longest development cycle, can't get it right, what does that say about modern game development? What the fuck happened?

The "release it broken now and maybe fix it later" mantra created this problem. Developers can release literally broken games, safe in the knowledge that the media will review it well dismiss upset fans, if not belittle them. Personally, I'm just kind of done. I want to play New World? Can't, the game doesn't actually work, and the developer keeps making it worse. Want to play Halo Infinite? Can't, the game doesn't actually work, and the developer doesn't seem to care. Game, after game, after game, after game. People can only be angry and disappointed for so long before it becomes their default state, I suppose.

I've gone back to playing old games, and relying on Game Pass so I don't have to spend big chunks of money on games that may or may not work, and may or may not have all the features advertised, and that may or may not be riddled with MTX. If it doesn't work, or it's a POS, I can just uninstall it and move on. On top of that, I'm playing through Shadowman Remastered at the moment. Game still fucking goes hard and shits on half the garbage I've played in the last five years. I think I'll just keep playing older games, and stop trying to play new games at release - it's better for my mental health :)
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
Investors are the cancer that erodes a game's potential. Often these people are not gamers and therefore don't care about the end user experience. They don't seem to understand that their need for a prompt return on investment is the very thing that stifles their return on investment.
 
The problem is that people will still support those broken games because they are big releases. If their management says we are sorry, we will avoid this mistake, then later people will forget, and they can rinse and repeat.
 
It's difficult to see an answer to the tension. On one hand developers need to get their shit together, release products that aren't full of scummy business practices. Or hey, how about releasing games that just work properly, that aren't a complete shit show at launch.

On the other hand however you're dealing with gamers, the absolute worst group of hobbyists I think ive ever come across. Whiny entitled man children. So many complaints you see online look like they've been typed up by someone with the emotional maturity of a 7 year old, but are most likely coming from a full blown middle aged adult. The issue I see is developers could fix all their issues right now and I doubt it would ever be enough for "gamers". They'll always find something to bitch about, they'll never be happy.

Who knows what's going to happen but it sure is spicy right now.

Pretty much the way I see this.

For me I'm actually impressed this stuff works the way it does in the first place. The complexity of games today is amazing, and needs to be appreciated more.

It would be nice if some games "BF2042 for example" stayed in the oven a bit longer to correct bugs.
 

plushyp

Member
It's difficult to see an answer to the tension. On one hand developers need to get their shit together, release products that aren't full of scummy business practices. Or hey, how about releasing games that just work properly, that aren't a complete shit show at launch.

On the other hand however you're dealing with gamers, the absolute worst group of hobbyists I think ive ever come across. Whiny entitled man children. So many complaints you see online look like they've been typed up by someone with the emotional maturity of a 7 year old, but are most likely coming from a full blown middle aged adult. The issue I see is developers could fix all their issues right now and I doubt it would ever be enough for "gamers". They'll always find something to bitch about, they'll never be happy.

Who knows what's going to happen but it sure is spicy right now.
That's not entirely it. Switch gaming with any pastime (watching films/tv/sports/drinking etc.) and this still holds. You always have this subsection of hardcore fans that will give a bad rep to something.
 

Jennings

Member
Was it unfinished at release?

Game got pushed to make it better. The online component was released first (where the majority plays it). Wasn't the campaign released complete?
Halo Infinite is perfectly fine. It's everything one could want in a modern Halo game.
 
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Developers aren’t lazy, but I don’t think they are as talented as they used to be. There seems to be a brain-drain going on in the industry, at least with Western Game Developers. Newer hires introduce toxic work environments that stifles creativity and cooperation.
 

CZY

Member
The change that needs to be made is that people need to stop pre-ordering games.

Full stop.

It doesn't matter if you "know" you'll love a game, or if you "trust" a certain company. Fucking knock it off.

I'd like to think that the consistent, repeated trend of recent AAA releases shitting themselves would spur this notion along, but after reading that the recent Destiny 2 expansion already has over a million pre-orders, well, it's obvious to me that people aren't learning shit.

So, you get what you pay for. If gamers keep shelling out money for unproven products, then companies will keep selling unproven products. It's really that simple. If you feed the demand, you feed the supply.

Let the game release, check reviews and feedback. Make an educated purchase.

STOP. PRE-ORDERING. FUCKING. GAMES.
Hard cringe @ “full stop” and dude wtf are you talking about, if I know I’m gonna buy day-1 anyway tf difference does it make if I preorder? What you appear to mean instead is to wait until a game has been patched a dozen times for a year and half or whatever before buying. That would make sense. “Stop preordering” doesn’t. Stop yelling.
 
Why would devs spend money debugging their shit when we do all the job for free when reporting those bugs? We need to be paid for that (or go back to the SNES and Saturn, I'm ok for that). Devs are the one to blame!
 
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jakinov

Member
The last several years has seen a flurry of unfinished games release. from cyberpunk, to halo infinite, to battlefield 2042, and even star citizens. This release now and finish it later approach seems to be doing more harm than good, and creating a lot of animosity between developers and their fans. Developers try to smoothe things over by releasing road maps that more often than not, they are unable to stick to.

I dont think developers are being lazy, i think creating and maintaining these massive games is a difficult feat, and us as players dont quite understand how hard it actually is. Conversely i think it means that developers need to avoid making public promises that they are unable to keep, just because its difficult, does not give you an excuse to lie to the community.

The real ultimatum lies with publishers. The publisher should be stepping in when a project is scoping out of control to reign it back to a shippable complete product. The publishers also need to avoid forcing the teams to provide public release dates or road maps, and let them work. Much of the animosity created can be avoided if fans dont know which internal deadline was missed to cause a delay, or which features needed to be cut in order to ship the game. Its why games should not be shown publically until they are at least 5
Months from launch, real launch, not the soft launch date publishers give to get pre orders.
What is "finished"? Cyberpunk was done just buggy. Halo wasn't done because there were modes annouced but never delivered on however, it was annouced pretty early before you could even buy it that it would come later. Star Citizen is still in development.

How does release now and ADD MORE later do more harm than good? Animosty is because a bunch of old gamers are anal about a complete game being on the disc. If there's not enough content for the price then don't buy it. It's that simple. What's the difference if I release a game with 8 features in 2022 and patch in 2 additional features by 2023 versus releassing in 2023 with allt he features. It's all about getting shit out fast so you can either fail fast or get feedback and contiously improve. With Halo infinite and BAttlefield for example the intention was for them to always be evolving games. which is why certian content or features might come later.

"lazy" is a stupid term that gamers keep using to describe game companies. Also, a lot of developers don't make actual "promises" they say their plans and if it doesn't happen you get people pissed. It's not a lie when I say ok the goal is to get this feature done by XYZ or we have plans to add ZZZ soon. Plans change, shit happens. If your friend tells you he'll be over at 8 but then he can't make it because his car broke down, his grandma randomly asked him to take her to the airport or he overlooked needing to spend longer than expected in traffic. No, shit just didn't go out as planned. It's not a lie and it's nice to know they are aiming for 8. The community can also be ignorant, entitled and just plain stupid. People angry will just jump on anything even if it's not true or doens't make sense. For example this video was trending in different Halo subreddits and on YouTube itself has 1M views and 42K likes, everything said in the video is true but people anger screws with their interpretation of what is said.

A quality that is looked for in senior employees (not in gaming specifically) is their ability to pushback and say no. The problem isn't always that the publishers are pushy as it is the people at the studio are afraid or unwilling to push back and put their foot down.

In terms of release dates and delays, the problem isn't that they give out rough release dates, the problem is people need to stop being whiny bitches. Look at the Sucide Squad thread and how everyone is trying to shit on Rocksteady and the publisher for delaying a game. Damned if u do damned if you don't.

People on gaming forums always have this weird idea about pre-orders. Pre-orders are with you and the middle-man seller like retail. Publishers don't do things for pre-orders they do things for sales. Pre-orders are cancelable and 100% refundable almost everywhere.

The biggest problem is bugs, and the optimism they can squash all the big ones from Gold -> Release. It works for a lot of companies does not work for all projects. Bugs are expected in everything espcially video games but you don't want them to be severe and you want them to be as rare as possible. The problem with bugs is that there's a lot of time involved in troubleshooting/reproducing, and then you actuall have to spend time fixing it. You can more accurately estimate that building out this features takes this much time than you can estimate what is causing the bug, what the solution is. You could spend days or week figuring out why a bug occurs, and never figure it out or figure out then realize there's a bunch of new unplanned work you suddenly have to do to address the bug. You could be aware of like 100 bugs and if each dev squashes 1 bug a day we could have a pretty low known bug count by launch. Again, bugs are not like features where u can size correclty how much time it takes to fix. The problem is when you go gold, that means you are already printing discs and dsitributing copies so to delay at that point is really expesenvie so they just keep pushing ot make sure day 1 or week 1 everything gets patched. But again not everything goes as planned.

Ideally developers should not rely on the day one patch but it's efficient and saves them money. You notice more when it doens't work out then when it does. You can name all the games that have day one issues but a shit ton of games have massive day one patches fixing a shit ton of bugs.
 

Catphish

Member
Hard cringe @ “full stop” and dude wtf are you talking about, if I know I’m gonna buy day-1 anyway tf difference does it make if I preorder? What you appear to mean instead is to wait until a game has been patched a dozen times for a year and half or whatever before buying. That would make sense. “Stop preordering” doesn’t. Stop yelling.
Oh, is it HARD CRINGE!? Well I better go back and edit because I wouldn’t want anyone to HARD CRINGE. 😄

I thought I was pretty clear about what I meant, and it wasn’t that nonsense you just posted. Sorry for the ambiguity and the affront to your delicate sensibilities.

Good thing you’re here. Thanks for setting me straight.
 
What is "finished"? Cyberpunk was done just buggy. Halo wasn't done because there were modes annouced but never delivered on however, it was annouced pretty early before you could even buy it that it would come later. Star Citizen is still in development.

How does release now and ADD MORE later do more harm than good? Animosty is because a bunch of old gamers are anal about a complete game being on the disc. If there's not enough content for the price then don't buy it. It's that simple. What's the difference if I release a game with 8 features in 2022 and patch in 2 additional features by 2023 versus releassing in 2023 with allt he features. It's all about getting shit out fast so you can either fail fast or get feedback and contiously improve. With Halo infinite and BAttlefield for example the intention was for them to always be evolving games. which is why certian content or features might come later.

"lazy" is a stupid term that gamers keep using to describe game companies. Also, a lot of developers don't make actual "promises" they say their plans and if it doesn't happen you get people pissed. It's not a lie when I say ok the goal is to get this feature done by XYZ or we have plans to add ZZZ soon. Plans change, shit happens. If your friend tells you he'll be over at 8 but then he can't make it because his car broke down, his grandma randomly asked him to take her to the airport or he overlooked needing to spend longer than expected in traffic. No, shit just didn't go out as planned. It's not a lie and it's nice to know they are aiming for 8. The community can also be ignorant, entitled and just plain stupid. People angry will just jump on anything even if it's not true or doens't make sense. For example this video was trending in different Halo subreddits and on YouTube itself has 1M views and 42K likes, everything said in the video is true but people anger screws with their interpretation of what is said.

A quality that is looked for in senior employees (not in gaming specifically) is their ability to pushback and say no. The problem isn't always that the publishers are pushy as it is the people at the studio are afraid or unwilling to push back and put their foot down.

In terms of release dates and delays, the problem isn't that they give out rough release dates, the problem is people need to stop being whiny bitches. Look at the Sucide Squad thread and how everyone is trying to shit on Rocksteady and the publisher for delaying a game. Damned if u do damned if you don't.

People on gaming forums always have this weird idea about pre-orders. Pre-orders are with you and the middle-man seller like retail. Publishers don't do things for pre-orders they do things for sales. Pre-orders are cancelable and 100% refundable almost everywhere.

The biggest problem is bugs, and the optimism they can squash all the big ones from Gold -> Release. It works for a lot of companies does not work for all projects. Bugs are expected in everything espcially video games but you don't want them to be severe and you want them to be as rare as possible. The problem with bugs is that there's a lot of time involved in troubleshooting/reproducing, and then you actuall have to spend time fixing it. You can more accurately estimate that building out this features takes this much time than you can estimate what is causing the bug, what the solution is. You could spend days or week figuring out why a bug occurs, and never figure it out or figure out then realize there's a bunch of new unplanned work you suddenly have to do to address the bug. You could be aware of like 100 bugs and if each dev squashes 1 bug a day we could have a pretty low known bug count by launch. Again, bugs are not like features where u can size correclty how much time it takes to fix. The problem is when you go gold, that means you are already printing discs and dsitributing copies so to delay at that point is really expesenvie so they just keep pushing ot make sure day 1 or week 1 everything gets patched. But again not everything goes as planned.

Ideally developers should not rely on the day one patch but it's efficient and saves them money. You notice more when it doens't work out then when it does. You can name all the games that have day one issues but a shit ton of games have massive day one patches fixing a shit ton of bugs.
How can you possibly think Cyberpunk was a finished game when just a few months before release they were holding these monthly videos, each month they would talk and advertise features that were supposed to be in the game but they actually turned out not to be in the game. I'm not talking about wall-climbing, I'm talking about things like vehicle customization that was hyped and advertised just 2-3 months before release. How can the game have been finished when it ran at 15-20 fps on last gen consoles?

How can you blame people for being entitled whiny bitches when the pattern of advertising features, announcing release dates, and downgrading graphics always happens in a negative pattern? If these things were just due to unplanned circumstances and were harmless misjudgements, why don't we ever see some positive surprises? Like a game releasing sooner than anticipated or graphics being better than the initial trailers and demos? It doesn't ever happen.

Do you think it's acceptable when a game is said to have certain features that are printed on the damn game box, like HDR or 4k, but then the final game comes out missing those features and they never get fixed?

What do you call developers who continually fail to deliver on their "goals" whereas other developers do deliver on those same things. If lazy is too harsh a word for you might I suggest "incompetent"?

These things obviously are all only problems because of the whining of the "entitled gamer", huh
 

jakinov

Member
How can you possibly think Cyberpunk was a finished game when just a few months before release they were holding these monthly videos, each month they would talk and advertise features that were supposed to be in the game but they actually turned out not to be in the game. I'm not talking about wall-climbing, I'm talking about things like vehicle customization that was hyped and advertised just 2-3 months before release. How can the game have been finished when it ran at 15-20 fps on last gen consoles?

How can you blame people for being entitled whiny bitches when the pattern of advertising features, announcing release dates, and downgrading graphics always happens in a negative pattern? If these things were just due to unplanned circumstances and were harmless misjudgements, why don't we ever see some positive surprises? Like a game releasing sooner than anticipated or graphics being better than the initial trailers and demos? It doesn't ever happen.

Do you think it's acceptable when a game is said to have certain features that are printed on the damn game box, like HDR or 4k, but then the final game comes out missing those features and they never get fixed?

What do you call developers who continually fail to deliver on their "goals" whereas other developers do deliver on those same things. If lazy is too harsh a word for you might I suggest "incompetent"?

These things obviously are all only problems because of the whining of the "entitled gamer", huh
Again what is a done game? because in reality contnet gets cut all the time for not being finished for for sucking. Movies trialers shows clips of movies that get cut last minute. This is also why companies are afraid to announce things early because things are tentative I can't speak for every cyberpunk media ever released but I'm sure every thing has a disclaimer that everything was subject to change or not represnative of final product. The performance has no bearing on whether or not it's done that's just quality issue with the product.

When I said whiny bitches I'm talking about the people who complain when there's a delay and then complain when they don't delay it. or at elast the concept that as a group there's always a vocal loud voice whiny and complaining because I can't for sure say that the person who has each sentiment is always necessairly the same person. I don't see the problem with annoucing release dates. That's when they expect to release

"downgrading" graphics is perfectly fine too. Most of the time it's because they showed the game early. If they don't show a game, people start complaining how they don't hear anything and start talking shit but when you show stuff early people complain for false advertising.

Reasons why you might never see positive surprises is because everything is heavily planned inintially and chances are things more likely to go wrong than that you grossly over estimated and you have time to do extra things or release early. And even if you do find extra time, things get scoped out during planning that you can scope back in so you aren't sitting around doing nothing. There are games that do look better than initial trailers and demos. The first party sony games come to mind and some of the first part Microsoft games like Gears.

I don't know of any games that list HDR but don't actually have it, 4K is probablyt listend for every new game because upscaling counts. But if they say HDR is available but isn't hen sure that'sa problem. But that's simply a mislabeling issue.

"lazy" isn't harash it's a stupid word because it doesn't make sense. Incompetent in some cases is better term if you have enouhg evidence of it becuase it means they are unable to do the job properly whereas lazy makes it sound like they are too lazy to do their job.

No they are problems because something went wrong during development. Bui the tension in a lot of these cases come from gamers do in a lot of cases come from gamers being ignorant, whiny, exaggerated, entitled toxic ittle bitches. There are times where anger is warrantied but than people pile on nonsense and make the situation worse.
 

EDMIX

Member
Again what is a done game? because in reality contnet gets cut all the time for not being finished for for sucking. Movies trialers shows clips of movies that get cut last minute.
I massively disagree I think the difference between single player multiplayer needs to be taken into consideration on how we define "done" although I understand that someone could use movies as an example, such an analogy simply could not apply here with CP2077.

The items missing from cyberpunk was not simply content alone we're talkin about core features like basic artificial intelligence like police officers being unable to drive cars the same with gang member or the fact that the game didn't even have the AI program to ride motorcycles or features literally in the menu like telling you you could put stuff in the car to store when you literally cannot do this there's multiple elements missing in the game to the point of even options in the menu being hollowed-out or them showing you trailers talkin about "customization" that literally does not exist like with vehicles.

So let's take the analogy of Television something clearly episodic that is incomplete when it arrives generally, to even apply to cyberpunk I'm sorry but you're not fucking getting a show where no subtitles exist because the shows "not done", o yeah the second episode has no sound because the shows "not done" o yeah I forgot instead of 40 minutes this next episodes going to be 20 minutes compared to the rest of the show because the rest of it's "not done" and you're going to see a green screen for the next 40 minutes because the show was "not done" what fucking show do you know that's coming out that's doing that as if that's normal?

So before we actually try to use those as analogies please understand what we're talking about



With multiplayer game I believe it's completely different I have nothing against a multiplayer game having the standard basic features and simply adding additional Maps as well as different modes or weapons or something like that post-launch that's no different than a show adding more episodes. ie (The fucking show plays, has subtitles, you see people, you hear sound lol)

But clearly there is a difference like you see with Battlefield 2042 where they game is launching without voice chat or a scoreboard and missing elements in the U I like the player profile and other basic standard features that existed in other Battlefield games or most of them at launch.

But clearly there's also a difference with single player games like cyberpunk 2077 where the things missing from the game or omitted or stripped from the game are just two basic to pretend any other medium is doing something like this


Those two examples are simply too unacceptable and there's no damn analogy you could make with any other medium that whatever makes sense because it's not like you're fucking buying a book and then the other half of the pages are completely blank or jumbled up or characters are named character one or two because the fucking book is unfinished that's not how we Define a multi book series like Harry Potter or Game of Thrones none of them are just coming out with the function of the book halfway like you're getting wet paper in the mail because they're not done pressing it lol

This is not how I feel about all DLC, this is now how I feel about expansions or add ons or any post launch content...this is how I feel when this system is abused to add elements post launch that are too standard to have even been missing at all.

AI (can't stress that shit enough, who the fuck launches a game where bad guys can't drive fucking cars, but hey its a game that has fucking cars you can drive in a city with humans with crime)
Standard modes
basic UI
Voice chat if a MP game

None of that shit sounds like just "content" those are day 1 elements.

This is also why companies are afraid to announce things early because things are tentative I can't speak for every cyberpunk media ever released but I'm sure every thing has a disclaimer that everything was subject to change or not represnative of final product.
I even agree with you that companies clearly are afraid to announce things early and they showed if something subjected change were they game is too early in development there's no point to promise something that's clearly subject to change but I don't even believe cyberpunk 2077 has such a fucking excuse you're talkin about a game that up until the week of its release was showing us trailers talking about features that literally did not exist that's not a concept of subject to change that basically a scam there literally telling you about functions that do not exist to have you buy the game...

They are literally withholding footage from the game with an embargo to scam people into purchasing the game

When you get to this point I don't really buy that excuse of not representative of the final product disclaimer on the corner or anything like that because that's an excuse for a company who puts out a beta who's transparent about their information in really actually mean that not a company who slapping that word around to get away with lying to people


Such a disclaimer should be used with discretion, it shouldn't be abused to balantly scam and lie to people about a series of features.

If they knew those things changed, why didn't they tell the public about all of those changes prior? For fuck sakes, we saw what was missing when the game came out and after the fact to the point of it basically being a different fucking genre....
whiny bitches I'm talking about the people who complain when there's a delay and then complain when they don't delay it.


Trust me. Gamers will complain about any delay, that doesn't mean they want broken games and thats no excuse. They want the game they are seeing in the trailers and are being told its either "ahead of schedule" or runs "surprising smooth" , thus they want what they are being told those games to be.

Upon finding out that was a lie, of course they will complain that it wasn't delayed further, they are only wanting the game BASED ON A LIE, thus it invalidates any of this, if they are telling us some false shit, we still want the FINSIHED game working, only delayed if it needs to be, but shit how would we know based on what was said by both EA and CDPR regarding those situations?

So as someone that bought both CP2077 and BF 2042 day 1, I'm telling you that if we knew those games were truly in that condition, we'd all demand a delay. We still want to play, working games sir. So we are not complaining so much that they didn't delay, but that they were not transparent that it needed on in the first place...

Think about it.

We are "ahead of schedule"
"Runs surprising well and smooth" non of that sounds like they are worried or that anything is wrong with the game, thus our feedback is wanting a release vs a delay, in the defense of 2042 players, that was asked after the beta by many, we got no demo of CP2077 and the hid footage to keep the scam alive. So how can we know its in such shape to even demand a delay on something they are blatantly hiding and lying about?

I even agree with you that issues in development happen, my issue is when that is withheld from the public to sell a series of lies.
 
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tvdaXD

Member
I think the problem lies with the investors and their stupid unrealistic goals. Either developers need to be harder and tell them it can't be done in such a short amount of time or we need to do something about it.
I honestly I think we should use laws against broken/glitchy releases. Like HOW can a game go gold, if it needs a day 1 patch!? That basically means what they call done ISN'T DONE.
Car manufacturers wouldn't release a car that isn't finished, and if they did, they would recall them all to fix it. Games should do the same, either come to us with a complete game, or un-release it till it is fixed.
Something to keep this bs from happening over and over again.
 
This is the crux of it for me. It feels that every major release - be it single player or multiplayer - launches in a terrible state, players need to basically revolt and bombard the developer across every forum and social media platform until they acknowledge, and then we get some kind of vague "road map" with the issues hand waved away.

Case in point would be Microsoft's biggest franchise: Halo. After the longest development cycle in the series' history, Halo Infinite finally launched. It has the least amount of content, the least amount of modes, the least amount of features of any Halo title - including the original on the OG Xbox. That would be fine if what we got was actually a working product. Halo Infinite's multiplayer is, fundamentally, broken. Hell, the single player on its own has a litany of laughable technical issues that no self-respecting developer ever would've let go to market, to say nothing of the low effort nature of the entire endeavour. The optimistic timeline for the fundamental fixes so the game actually works? Six months. And those just got "delayed". Road map for fixing up the single player issues? The developer hasn't even acknowledged them. Timeline for missing features? "We'll keep you updated". And the icing on the cake? Asking for a working game that has at least the same features as the previous entry is now considered "toxic". If the biggest franchise for Microsoft, with the biggest budget, and the longest development cycle, can't get it right, what does that say about modern game development? What the fuck happened?

The "release it broken now and maybe fix it later" mantra created this problem. Developers can release literally broken games, safe in the knowledge that the media will review it well dismiss upset fans, if not belittle them. Personally, I'm just kind of done. I want to play New World? Can't, the game doesn't actually work, and the developer keeps making it worse. Want to play Halo Infinite? Can't, the game doesn't actually work, and the developer doesn't seem to care. Game, after game, after game, after game. People can only be angry and disappointed for so long before it becomes their default state, I suppose.

I've gone back to playing old games, and relying on Game Pass so I don't have to spend big chunks of money on games that may or may not work, and may or may not have all the features advertised, and that may or may not be riddled with MTX. If it doesn't work, or it's a POS, I can just uninstall it and move on. On top of that, I'm playing through Shadowman Remastered at the moment. Game still fucking goes hard and shits on half the garbage I've played in the last five years. I think I'll just keep playing older games, and stop trying to play new games at release - it's better for my mental health :)
Dude you nailed it with that comment. That right there is the truth. That post should be stickied at the top of this thread. Nothing gets to me more than when I see other gamers calling gamers "entitled" because we constantly have to deal with both publishers and developers treating their customers like shit. The point you made about how, if we ever hope to get devs to acknowledge anything, we have to bombard them on social media with requests which of course turn to outrage as our requests get ignored 99% of the time.

Interesting you brought up 343 and Microsoft, because I think they are a poster child for what is wrong with modern development houses. They have also called gamers "entitled and toxic" in public statements btw. The thing in particular that made me detest 343 is how they broke the performance of Halo CE and Halo 2 campaigns on the Xbox one x in patch well over a year and a half ago now. That game used to run well on that system but after the Halo Reach update, they introduces constant stuttering and fps drops into the game. Fast forward to today and they have never fixed the problem! It KILLS me everytime I see someone say how "the MCC is in a great place today". Oh really? Well, it may be on PC and Series X but the for the fans who supported them from early on and who bought a One X to get good performance back in 2017, we got screwed.

This is Halo! Halo CE and Halo 2 are literally the two most important Xbox games yet Microsoft can't make sure that 343 has the game in a working state across its platforms. On the One X is literally unplayable. The stuttering is that bad. What's even crazier is that there are gamers who always defend these companies no matter how shitty they treat their customers.

More examples recently of awful developer behavior is Io interactive with Hitman 3 (broken hdr/never gets fixed even though people ask them all the time and audio cuts out on the ps5- over a year we've just had live with this despite supporting them with our $60) and Ubisoft with Far Cry 6, which has god awful screen tearing on ps5. We're completely at the mercy of greedy, lazy companies and we have no real voice to affect change, especially when there are always Youtubers and games journalists who fluff these games no matter how bad performance is.

These are not just smaller studios but huge and respected developers like Rockstar with this GTA trilogy garbage. How about Ubisoft releasing Far Cry Blood Dragon as part of its expansion pass- but it only runs at 30 fps on next gen consoles! Doesn't matter that its the "classic version" and was never marketed as a remaster. Theres no reason why a standard port of an old game shouldn't be 60 fps on next gen hardware.. It's pretty sad state of affairs and things like this show that these companies aren't just lazy, they don't give a fuck! Happens wayyy to often.
 
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Yoboman

Member
Gamers would be happy with a great product every 3-4 years. Not a rushed broken one every 1-2 years

Gamers would be happy with smaller, more thought out worlds. Not feature creep, giant pointless open worlds

Gamers will play on one really well designed map (eg PUBG) over a bunch of rushed, unbalanced maps.

Problem is publishers are chasing their bottom line instead of what the consumer wants from games

Frankly I'm fine with it, let the dinosaur franchises dwindle because something new will come and take its place
 

Graciaus

Member
For the love of god, please reduce the scope of the games. I don't need Persona 5 to take me 120 hours to complete. Make it 20 hours tops, instead let it take less than 100 years to finish developing it and release it bug free and complete. Thank you. Knack was around 12 hours. That game wouldn't have overstayed its welcome if it was 6 hours. Why do people buy games on the promise of "32523244 qkm game world, 2000000 hours to complete" alone?
You aren't the target audience of those games. Play something else.
 
Tension between who exactly? Let's be real for a minute, communities of nerds like GAF, that don't hold back and express their dissatisfaction about the state of gaming, are a drop in the ocean. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's things in motion that I don't like either, but don't think for a second places like this represent the majority.

From observation it seems like its mostly the older generation(s) that grew up with a different product perception that are displeased. The silent majority buys these games regardless of what some supernerd community shouts and thinks.

Overcritical fans and consumers are the last point on these businesses' agenda for better or worse.
 
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SJRB

Gold Member
Tension gets created when developers do not deliver whatever the consumer is expecting.

This ranges from games that are technically not up to standards dictated by its price point [i.e. buggy dogshit games that are shoveled out] and games that in other ways do not meet expectations set by the developer to more nefarious schemes implemented to wring more money out of consumers [pay to win, microtransactions, progression boosters, etc].

AAA videogame development has turned extremely cynical.

Indie space is where it's at.
 
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Shut0wen

Member
The last several years has seen a flurry of unfinished games release. from cyberpunk, to halo infinite, to battlefield 2042, and even star citizens. This release now and finish it later approach seems to be doing more harm than good, and creating a lot of animosity between developers and their fans. Developers try to smoothe things over by releasing road maps that more often than not, they are unable to stick to.

I dont think developers are being lazy, i think creating and maintaining these massive games is a difficult feat, and us as players dont quite understand how hard it actually is. Conversely i think it means that developers need to avoid making public promises that they are unable to keep, just because its difficult, does not give you an excuse to lie to the community.

The real ultimatum lies with publishers. The publisher should be stepping in when a project is scoping out of control to reign it back to a shippable complete product. The publishers also need to avoid forcing the teams to provide public release dates or road maps, and let them work. Much of the animosity created can be avoided if fans dont know which internal deadline was missed to cause a delay, or which features needed to be cut in order to ship the game. Its why games should not be shown publically until they are at least 5
Months from launch, real launch, not the soft launch date publishers give to get pre orders.
Working from home is a major problem that has effected these games, bf and cyberpunk would still be a mess but not the scsle there in, halo infinte i believe wasnt unfinished but the team has been forcusing on one thing after another
 
Ummm, Halo infinite was a finished game. It didn't have a lot of game crippling issues like the others you listed.
exactly.... how in the blue hell can OP lump Halo in with Cyberpunk lol. I played it day of launch until now. It had limited matchmaking sure, but it was a good experience overall. The campaign was also fully playable and barely ran into any bugs. maybe he meant to put dying light2?
 
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