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Tomb Raider Review Thread!

I think they're awesome. From a fight choreography standpoint, the gifs I've seen are fucking sick. I think it's more likely that they just hired a really creative guy with an eye for cool melee kills in the mo-cap department.

And yeah, it does fit. The whole introduction of the game is just brutality. Yet, she survives. How do you think she manages to do that? By digging down deep and being more brutal than they are. Sounds awesome to me.

No one would ever even ask this question if it was a man. Kind of ironic to see this much soft-sexism from the game's critics.

Tomb Raider |OT| I Spit On Your Grave : Champion Edition
 

Shinta

Banned
Lara Croft has got by being "strong" for years without vicious finishers trying to overcompensate for the amount of torture they put her through. It's like the game can only act in extremes, going from torture porn weakling to visceral Gears of War executions. It's like there's no middle-ground anymore.

Gears of War is hardly extreme. It's one of the most mainstream games around, and so are the executions in it. That's my point. And no one gives a fuck about Gears of War's executions. There's no warning in reviews warning people about it.

As far as torture porn, that's really on you if you feel like that is arousing. I sure don't. I could have played through this entire game and never had the words "torture porn" enter my mind once.

It reminds me of Rambo: First Blood based on what I've seen, or Die Hard. Is it "torture porn" when John McClain walks on glass in his bare feet? Or maybe gritty action is only bad when it's a woman.
Tomb Raider |OT| I Spit On Your Grave : Champion Edition

I'm cool with that lol.
 

george_us

Member
So it's a dark and gritty TPS with an open ending. Great. We didn't have enough TPS this gen. Or open endings.
In the end this perfectly sums up why people are down on this game despite good reviews or the fact that it may be even a good game. We already have three millions dark and gritty third person shooters. What we don't have are adventure games that focus more on platforming and puzzle solving ala Tomb Raider Underworld.
 

Kinyou

Member
And yeah, I do think it's sexism, completely. Is the guy in Watch Dogs a hardened killer? Looked like a hacker to me, but no one cares that he's sliding over cars, beating people with retractable metal sticks and then executing them at point blank range. No one gives a fuck about this kind of thing, ever. Only when it's a woman apparently. Too weak, too strong. I'm sick of it.
You act like people never ever complained about too much violence in videogames.

Cringe worthy violence in games: Is it getting a little dumb at this point? (Neogaf thread)

E3 Day Zero: When Game Violence Becomes Vile (RSP article)

"Did I get the wrong bus & end up at a serial killer convention?"(1up)

Gears of War is hardly extreme. It's one of the most mainstream games around, and so are the executions in it. That's my point. And no one gives a fuck about Gears of War's executions. There's no warning in reviews warning people about it.
1up said:
After previewing the upcoming Sleeping Dogs, 1UP EIC Jeremy Parish expressed concerns that some of the acts of violence took on such specifically brutal and graphically depicted forms that they made him feel a little uneasy.
 
Or maybe gritty action is only bad when it's a woman.
As if we've never had violent games with female leads. Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Lara Croft is a household name. She has always had over the top Hollywood adventurer action hero aspects to her, but sadistic violence has never been one of her qualities, until now.

Guess that's what the larger gaming audience wants out of a reboot? Executions?
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
Literally everyone was bashing this game because she was depicted as vulnerable. They said the old Lara is far tougher and that this is a grievous insult to a female icon because it robs her of her power. They compared it to Metroid: Other M or 3rd Birthday.

Now you guys are mad she's not vulnerable and is instead quite strong?

Strong doesn't mean a sadistic psychopath who has no problems in sticking an arrow in someones throat or blow someones' head with a shotgun. Old Lara managed to be a strong independent women without the whole brutality.

And you're still missing the point. A fucking teenage girl who went on her first adventure and yet has no problem with brutally murdering hundreds of guys. Whether its in self-defense or not is meaningless; there's a difference between a simple shootout or knocking guy off and sneaking behind him and strucking a pickaxe into his head like a professional killer. As I said, you wouldn't expect Harry Potter or Jim Hawkins to grab a shotgun and start blowing heads of their enemy without even blinking an eye. If this was older, already hardened and experienced Lara it wouldn't stick out so much. But we're talking about a girl who just happened to kill a person for the first time just few minutes ago, was in shock because of that, and now is killing guys left and right with zero emotions. If Crystal Dynamics wanted to tell an origin story and use a teenage character they should also take that into consideration when designing the rest of the game.

And the main problem is that narrative-wise this Lara is still that "vulnerable" young women who just started to learn how to be an adventure; she's still whining here and now, she's still crying when she killed a deer, she still "hates tombs" etc. What's happening in the gameplay is simply in dissonance with how her character is portrayed during cut-scenes.
 
omg, remember when Link in Wind Waker
cuts off Ganon's head?

That's totally out of character for him, what an unnecessary kill!

Like guys, c'mon. Is it really a big deal? Don't be overly critical. Lighten up.
 
Damn, Square Enix after seeing these reviews:

 

Shinta

Banned
After previewing the upcoming Sleeping Dogs, 1UP EIC Jeremy Parish expressed concerns that some of the acts of violence took on such specifically brutal and graphically depicted forms that they made him feel a little uneasy.

I'm surprised that someone complained about Watch Dogs. I haven't seen even one person do it, but you found one. Congratulations.

I still think way more people are making a fuss about Tomb Raider than they will Watch Dogs. I bet Watch Dogs reviews won't have a warning about the violence either.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Strong doesn't mean a sadistic psychopath who has no problems in sticking an arrow in someones throat or blow someones' head with a shotgun. Old Lara managed to be a strong independent women without the whole brutality.

And you're still missing the point. A fucking teenage girl who went on her first adventure and yet has no problem with brutally murdering hundreds of guys. Whether its in self-defense or not is meaningless; there's a difference between a simple shootout or knocking guy off and sneaking behind him and strucking a pickaxe into his head. As I said, you wouldn't expect Harry Potter or Jim Hawkins to grab a shotgun and start blowing heads of their enemy without even blinking an eye. If this was older, already hardened and experienced Lara it would stick out so much. But we're talking about a girl who just happened to kill a person for the first time just few minutes ago, was in shock because of that, and now is killing guys left and right with zero emotions.

And the main problem is that narrative-wise this Lara is still that "vulnerable" young women who just started to learn how to be an adventure. What's happening in the gameplay is simply in dissonance with how her character is portrayed during cut-scenes.

Imagine if Rambo was just some teenager with no war history in First Blood.

omg, remember when Link in Wind Waker
cuts off Ganon's head?

That's totally out of character for him, what an unnecessary kill!

Like guys, c'mon. Is it really a big deal? Don't be overly critical. Lighten up.
Uh, he didn't do that, he
stabbed him in the head, which turned him to stone.
That was after hours of story and character building up to that moment, it was the main villain, and it was effectively conveyed as desperate. +60 XP: EXPERT FINISHER didn't pop up either.
 
I'm surprised that someone complained about Watch Dogs. I haven't seen even one person do it, but you found one. Congratulations.

I still think way more people are making a fuss about Tomb Raider than they will Watch Dogs. I bet Watch Dogs reviews won't have a warning about the violence either.

Maybe that's because based on what we've seen so far, Watch Dogs won't be as gruesome and disturbing as Tomb Raider. Different degrees of content elicit different reactions. Surprise?
 
Gears of War is hardly extreme. It's one of the most mainstream games around, and so are the executions in it.

Which is a whole other conversation about how prevalent and glorified extreme violence is in modern video games

That's my point. And no one gives a fuck about Gears of War's executions.

Context, context, context. The world and people that inhabit Gears of War are a whole other universe from something like Tomb Raider. Lara Croft was never a COG hardass soldier, especially now, when the game goes through tortuous hour after hour of showing what a vulnerable teenage girl she is. The game tries to have it both ways.

Hell, Gears had the same problem. There were a lot of complaints about how Dom's tragedy was at odds with the jovial bang-bang shooty atmosphere and one-liners the game quickly goes back into.

It reminds me of Rambo: First Blood based on what I've seen, or Die Hard. Is it "torture porn" when John McClain walks on glass in his bare feet? Or maybe gritty action is only bad when it's a woman.

Various reviews have made the opening sound like it's one scene of John McClane stepping on broken glass after another, REALLY driving home just how terrible everything is. You can argue about the term torture porn, but that's really not the fuckin' point here. Rambo, especially, as far as we know, has always been a grizzed war badass. The violence in Rambo 4 gets pretty crazy, but coming from Rambo, it actually makes a bit of sense giving his, ya know, entire fuckin' character.
 
Literally everyone was bashing this game because she was depicted as vulnerable. They said the old Lara is far tougher and that this is a grievous insult to a female icon because it robs her of her power. They compared it to Metroid: Other M or 3rd Birthday.

Now you guys are mad she's not vulnerable and is instead quite strong?

I expect the worst from message boards, but this kind of hypocrisy surprises even me.

And yeah, I do think it's sexism, completely. Is the guy in Watch Dogs a hardened killer? Looked like a hacker to me, but no one cares that he's sliding over cars, beating people with retractable metal sticks and then executing them at point blank range. No one gives a fuck about this kind of thing, ever. Only when it's a woman apparently. Too weak, too strong. I'm sick of it.

You're gonna have to dig up who said this and where because I'm not remembering any of this at all, not in the last... god, what has it been, a half dozen threads already?

I mean, it sounds like something maybe I could have said months ago, but if I did, my problem would be based on the same things some of the negative reviews have mentioned - the speed at which she goes from college kid to Rambo. Later I read that she already has survival training before being put into this situation, so that could theoretically satisfy my issue with it. Now some of the negative reviews are saying there is a dissonance between what is portrayed in the cutscenes and ingame, which is just as big of a problem afaic.

Personally, I don't think I've ever had a problem with serious violence in a video game based solely on the sex of the offender.
 
And you're still missing the point. A fucking teenage girl who went on her first adventure and yet has no problem with brutally murdering hundreds of guys. Whether its in self-defense or not is meaningless; there's a difference between a simple shootout or knocking guy off and sneaking behind him and strucking a pickaxe into his head like a professional killer.

I get what your saying but it's not like other mediums haven't showed kids at a young age being thrusted to kill in order to survive. Both the book and movie Battle Royale says hello.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
In the end this perfectly sums up why people are down on this game despite good reviews or the fact that it may be even a good game. We already have three millions dark and gritty third person shooters. What we don't have are adventure games that focus more on platforming and puzzle solving ala Tomb Raider Underworld.

Do you really expect this game to get the budget it had if it wasn't a shooter?
 

Lime

Member
Then again I don't analyze shit to that extent like some of you folks do. It's a game.

And you're supposed to be a reviewer? I think much of your epistemic credibility or probability of valuable insight have been thrown out the window with that comment.

I get what your saying but it's not like other mediums haven't showed kids at a young age being thrusted to kill in order to survive. Both the book and movie Battle Royale says hello.

You need to think about context. Consider the differences between what Battle Royale is aiming for with its narrative and characters, and what the focus of this Tomb Raider is. Think about how violence is utilized in the former and think about how it is utilized in the latter.
 
And you're supposed to be a reviewer? I think much of your epistemic credibility or probability of valuable insight have been thrown out the window with that comment.

I tried to replace the word "game" with other things to see how it works out as a supposed critic of a medium.

"Then again I don't analyze shit to that extent like some of you folks do. It's a movie."

"Then again I don't analyze shit to that extent like some of you folks do. It's a book."

"Then again I don't analyze shit to that extent like some of you folks do. It's a music cd."
 
As if we've never had violent games with female leads. Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Lara Croft is a household name. She has always had over the top Hollywood adventurer action hero aspects to her, but sadistic violence has never been one of her qualities, until now.

Guess that's what the larger gaming audience wants out of a reboot? Executions?

Actually, wasn't she practically a psychopath in Angel of Darkness? It's been a while since I watched it on youtube (lol.)

I get what your saying but it's not like other mediums haven't showed kids at a young age being thrusted to kill in order to survive. Both the book and movie Battle Royale says hello.

Tomb Raider |OT| It's Like I Spit on Your Grave and Hunger Games Had a Baby

I remember it in the box art reveal thread.

Really? Man, well, the issues a lot of us had with this game really have changed a lot as they've shown more of it.

Maybe we really were forming opinions based off of evidence and not just being "haters" :p
 
And you're supposed to be a reviewer? I think much of your epistemic credibility or probability of valuable insight have been thrown out the window with that comment.

I am not a professional reviewer nor am I paid for reviews. I give my opinion on my gaming experiences. No need to attack my credibilty.

Tomb Raider |OT| It's Like I Spit on Your Grave and Hunger Games Had a Baby

I like it :D
 

Shinta

Banned
I remember it in the box art reveal thread.

I remember it in virtually every thread on Tomb Raider ever. That's what the whole "protect" thing people keep bringing up was about. They're complaining that she was so weak that people had to protect her, and that this was a huge insult to a strong female gaming icon.

Now they're literally complaining about the exact opposite, and saying it's out of character.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Actually, wasn't she practically a psychopath in Angel of Darkness? It's been a while since I watched it on youtube (lol.)



Tomb Raider |OT| It's Like I Spit on Your Grave and Hunger Games Had a Baby

You know, I finally watched some video of Angel of Darkness on youtube, and her personality in that game was unbearable. She was suddenly overly dark and gritty for no apparent reason. Apparently getting buried in a pyramid for a few days makes you really angry at everyone.
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
I get what your saying but it's not like other mediums haven't showed kids at a young age being thrusted to kill in order to survive. Both the book and movie Battle Royale says hello.

Haven't heard about Battle Royale, will check it out.
Still, I just think that CD went over the board with the amount of enemies and the gore. I don't mind her actually killing enemies, because the situation requires that after all. However, the amount of enemies, the way she is doing this and zero commentary about the whole manslaughter (except from that "it was easy" comment) really doesn't fit the character and story Crystal Dynamics wanted to present.
 
Really? Man, well, the issues a lot of us had with this game really have changed a lot as they've shown more of it.

Maybe we really were forming opinions based off of evidence and not just being "haters" :p

Yeah. I like you, Fine Ham Abounds, you're a lot more laid back and chill than most people on here.
 
If I wanted to make Lara a newbie at shooting people then I'll purposely do so by aiming the reticle five inches away from the enemy's head and finally aiming correctly a minute later.

Haven't heard about Battle Royale, will check it out.
Still, I just think that CD went over the board with the amount of enemies and the gore. I don't mind her actually killing enemies, because the situation requires that after all. However, the amount of enemies, the way she is doing this and zero commentary about the whole manslaughter (except from that "it was easy" comment) really doesn't fit the character and story Crystal Dynamics wanted to present.

A more "contemporary" version of Battle Royale would be Hunger Games if you've seen/read it
 

Jay Sosa

Member
Are we at a point where we should hope that games don't get high budgets?

Hasn't it been like that for a while? I'm not saying I don't enjoy big budget titles from time to time but if you want something refreshing and somewhat new your best bet this gen was PSN and Live. Publishers just can't take any risks no more so they play it safe. Can't say I blame them.
 

King_Moc

Banned
Lara was mowing people down by the dozen in all the Tomb Raiders. They just didn't have the graphical fidelity to make it all gory.

And this can't retain the same difficulty/style of gameplay as the originals. That type of gamer is no longer the majority. Gaming is much more mainstream now and gamers that are used to Assassin's Creed wouldn't be able to clear the first level of Tomb Raider. Making the puzzle based tombs an optional side to the main game is an extremely smart move. A game with the same difficulty and style of play as the first few Tomb Raiders could only really exist as an indie game or something a little more low budget nowadays.
 

Lime

Member
I am not a professional reviewer nor am I paid for reviews. I give my opinion on my gaming experiences. No need to attack my credibilty.

Maybe there's a language barrier here. I'm not referring to your integrity, but your ability to bring forward valuable and well-founded knowledge on the medium you're supposed to analyze and assess.

If you simply conform to counter-intuitive positions like "I don't analyze shit to that extent like some of you folks do. It's a game.", then the likelihood that you will justifiably and elaborately analyze and criticize the game you're supposed to review (i.e. assess) will be almost zero. Your reviews become superficial treatments of the game in question when you have an approach like that.

It's the difference between writing articles for trash tabloids and for well-regarded journalistic publications.
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
You know, I finally watched some video of Angel of Darkness on youtube, and her personality in that game was unbearable. She was suddenly overly dark and gritty for no apparent reason. Apparently getting buried in a pyramid for a few days makes you really angry at everyone.

I think she was buried there for quite some time. After all, in Chronicles her friends decided that it's time to prepare a funeral for her, even though her body hadn't been found and Von Croy had a lot of people looking for her.

Also, at the beginning of AoD we see her killing Von Croy (or at least she was standing over his body with Von Croy's blood on her hands) and now she is a fugitive. I think being a murder suspect can turn you in a gritty angry person ;)

A more "contemporary" version of Battle Royale would be Hunger Games if you've seen/read it
No ;_;
I have to read the book, but first I want to forget all the spoilers I happened to read/heard when people were talking about the movie.
 

Lime

Member
Haven't heard about Battle Royale, will check it out.
Still, I just think that CD went over the board with the amount of enemies and the gore. I don't mind her actually killing enemies, because the situation requires that after all. However, the amount of enemies, the way she is doing this and zero commentary about the whole manslaughter (except from that "it was easy" comment) really doesn't fit the character and story Crystal Dynamics wanted to present.

Just a FYI: Battle Royale doesn't use its violence in a gratuitous manner like Tomb Raider looks to do. The comparison between the two is flawed.
 

Jay Sosa

Member
Making the puzzle based tombs an optional side to the main game is an extremely smart move

hahah what. The more I read about the game the worse it gets. The tombs in Tomb Raider are optional side quests. You can't make that shit up.
 
Haven't heard about Battle Royale, will check it out.
Still, I just think that CD went over the board with the amount of enemies and the gore. I don't mind her actually killing enemies, because the situation requires that after all. However, the amount of enemies, the way she is doing this and zero commentary about the whole manslaughter (except from that "it was easy" comment) really doesn't fit the character and story Crystal Dynamics wanted to present.

I agree completely. It feels out of place for a character that has already been established. I still think it fits in the context of the story since these enemies appear to just want you dead. Though they could have gone about it a bt of a different way concerning this is a Lara Croft we all know fairly well. Now if there just totally trying to re-event here and her future self.... a FULL blown remake if you will or re-envision. I get it. Still it's hard to erase everything all us long time Lara fans know.

Just a FYI: Battle Royale doesn't use its violence in a gratuitous manner like Tomb Raider looks to do. The comparison between the two is flawed.

The fact is you still have a highschool class, told to kill each other and only one survives. Each other hunting/backstabbing each other. All while wearing neck bands that can blow their necks off. Which if the scene near the start in the class room where blood just goes spraying up once the collar blows isn't gratuitous, we simple can agree to disagree. It's still pretty distubring for alot of people from all the people I know that saw it. There was a reason it wasn't released here for a long time.
 
I remember it in virtually every thread on Tomb Raider ever. That's what the whole "protect" thing people keep bringing up was about. They're complaining that she was so weak that people had to protect her, and that this was a huge insult to a strong female gaming icon.

Now they're literally complaining about the exact opposite, and saying it's out of character.

I thought all of that was just drive-by trolling of that producer's quote. I know that it stopped being funny after the first week, and that's being generous.

Anyways, I really just can't agree with you. Maybe a few, but certainly not all of us even care about Lara's presence beyond being the protagonist. This thing turning out like a crummy cinematic cash grab has been my concern for what seems like forever now.

I'm kinda encouraged by things we're hearing now that this might not be a completely unsalvageable experience later on. I'd be pleasantly surprised if ludonarrative dissonance could end up my biggest complaint.
 
Lara was mowing people down by the dozen in all the Tomb Raiders. They just didn't have the graphical fidelity to make it all gory.
I don't remember executions. We're talking throat stabs, hatchets to the brain, and shotguns to the chin, on already downed enemies here. There is survival and self defense, and then there are these ice cold executions, which are on an entirely different level.

Am I just that out of touch with modern audiences for this shit?
 
Maybe there's a language barrier here. I'm not referring to your integrity, but your ability to bring forward valuable and well-founded knowledge on the medium you're supposed to analyze and assess.

If you simply conform to counter-intuitive positions like "I don't analyze shit to that extent like some of you folks do. It's a game.", then the likelihood that you will justifiably and elaborately analyze and criticize the game you're supposed to review (i.e. assess) will be almost zero. Your reviews become superficial treatments of the game in question when you have an approach like that.

It's the difference between writing articles for trash tabloids and for well-regarded journalistic publications.

I don't look to gaming reviews or opinions for in-depth analysis of a character's morality and actions. It's a video game. He's just stating that.

I honestly just roll my eyes at all these criticisms of Lara's executions. It's just strange to me.
 
I don't remember executions. We're talking throat stabs, hatchets to the brain, and shotguns to the chin, on already downed enemies here. There is survival and self defense, and then there are these ice cold executions, which are on an entirely different level.

Am I just that out of touch with modern audiences for this shit?

I mean, I thought Link stabbing Ganon in the head in Wind Waker was some pretty cold shit back in the day. I guess the next step is blood to spurt out all over the screen

and some XP bars to pop up, unlocking concept art gallery #3
 
I don't remember executions. We're talking throat stabs, hatchets to the brain, and shotguns to the chin, on already downed enemies here. There is survival and self defense, and then there are these ice cold executions, which are on an entirely different level.

Am I just that out of touch with modern audiences for this shit?

Isn't Lara basically trying to save her friends in this game? I mean if I had to rescue people I like I'd do what it takes to save them. Far Cry 3 is an example of this.
 

B-Dex

Member
Making the puzzle based tombs an optional side to the main game is an extremely smart move.

Yes. A game called TOMB RAIDER where any tomb that is in it is an optional side room off the beaten path.... Why even call it tomb raider?

Also, a cave with a Buddha-like statue and a chest isn't a tomb
 

Roquentin

Member
"Tomb Raider reboot got good scores! Haters were so wrong!"

Not really. If you actually read arguments of these "haters", you would know that there were two main sources of hate: the game looked to have too many modern game design elements (QTEs, lots of cut-scenes, XP/leveling, hand-holding, brutal finishers, etc.) and that the game didn't have enough of actual tomb raiding. Both of these came true.

This release basically means death to a genre. Hopefully someone else will revive it.

It's a game. A good game. Calm down and don't buy it if you don't like it.
You're right. I'll buy some other game that has gameplay and atmosphere similar to previous TRs. Oh, wait...
 

King_Moc

Banned
hahah what. The more I read about the game the worse it gets. The tombs in Tomb Raider are optional side quests. You can't make that shit up.

If you want them, they're still there. You actually have to explore to find them. It's pretty clear from the best seller lists that the average gamer doesn't want them. They want linear cutscene fests. They're catering for both audiences. I really don't see the problem.
 

RagnarokX

Member
I think she was buried there for quite some time. After all, in Chronicles her friends decided that it's time to prepare a funeral for her, even though her body hadn't been found and Von Croy had a lot of people looking for her.

Also, at the beginning of AoD we see her killing Von Croy (or at least she was standing over his body with Von Croy's blood on her hands) and now she is a fugitive. I think that alone can turn you into a gritty person. ;)

She couldn't have been buried more than a week, her body would have given out. And her extreme attitude shift happens before she becomes a fugitive. Von Croy asks her to help him after he went through all that trouble to rescue her and she starts waving her gun at him and getting angry because he left her to die, even though he was obviously possessed by Seth for most of the game, tried to save her at the end, and did end up saving her eventually. But she actually did leave him behind in a temple when she was younger, and her response when he called her out on it was to blame him for pulling a lever she told him not to pull. The whole series of events of Last Revelation, was ironically caused ultimately by Lara pulling an artifact she shouldn't have pulled.
 
If you want them, they're still there. You actually have to explore to find them. It's pretty clear from the best seller lists that the average gamer doesn't want them. They want linear cutscene fests. They're catering for both audiences. I really don't see the problem.
By the sound of the reviews, even the positive ones, the optional tombs are simplistic, one-room puzzles.
 

Shinta

Banned
I thought all of that was just drive-by trolling of that producer's quote. I know that it stopped being funny after the first week, and that's being generous.
have you guys watched the polygon today i played video?
http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/26/4032638/today-i-played-tomb-raider

@ 3:20 "anyone that says that this is a game where Lara is a weakling, a teenage pussy girl that can't do anything - nope, Lara has got it covered."

Even Polygon is mentioning it.
 
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