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Tomb Raider Review Thread!

Shinta

Banned
Pick-axe to the head and shotgun to the face = solid fight choregraphy, not fetishist or sadistic. I hope you realize the ridiculousness of such a statement.

What's ridiculous about it? It's very eye-catching fight choreography and body language. Someone else said it was "too stylish."

The fact that this was discussed and debated show that tons of people had a problem with the way gamers approach violence. Like Faceless007 said, it's a discussion that's needed to be had for all games with gratuitous careless violence.

That discussion was never more likely to happen then during the recent school shootings when the focus of the entire world, the NRA, even the Vice President was focused squarely on violence in gaming.

The overwhelming majority decided it was a conversation not worth having, and decided that they have very little problem with it.

I don't know what rock you have been living under. Tons of people and outlets have criticized and debates the No Russian level, both esoterically and exoterically.

Yet it's literally one of the most mainstream games of all time. Makes me question the legitimacy of your "tons of people" claim.

Tons of people have criticized the torture in Splinter Cell, most notably the well-respected Tom Bissel. Ubisoft even removed the specific scene because of the outcry.

I know. That's what I said.

I have no idea how you can actually say such a rude thing to faceless007 when she or he is being very articulate and well-reasoned in his/her arguments.

Is my post sadistic?
 
That discussion was never more likely to happen then during the recent school shootings when the focus of the entire world, the NRA, even the Vice President was focused squarely on violence in gaming.

The overwhelming majority decided it was a conversation not worth having, and decided that they have very little problem with it.
Amazing. Its like we live in two wholly separate universes.

there are 3+ of those. the investment people have in franchises gets a little gross every now and then
Take Tomb Raider. Add Uncharted chest high cover combat and Gears of War grisly executions. Remove challenging puzzles. Add Detective Mode vision. Add multiplayer. Add XP and skill unlocks.

No, you're right. Lets celebrate this and hope that even more games get this treatment.

Most gaming sites ran article after article discrediting the NRA for focusing on violence in gaming. Or studies showing no link between gaming violence and real violence.

Most gaming sites were far, far more interested in sexism than violence over the last 1-2 years.
You don't have to presume a link between virtual violence and actual violence to have a discussion on violence in gaming.
 

Shinta

Banned
Amazing. Its like we live in two wholly separate universes.

Most gaming sites ran article after article discrediting the NRA for focusing on violence in gaming. Or studies showing no link between gaming violence and real violence. Or mocking the Sandy Hook church group that was going to burn M-rated games in a big bonfire.

Most gaming sites were far, far more interested in sexism than violence over the last 1-2 years.

This perfectly sums it up really. Patricia Hernandez, one of the most vocal feminists and sexism critics in gaming gushing about how much she loves violence. Yet if there's even the tiniest hint of sexism in a game, or game convention, or advertisement, she will never let it stand without criticism.
 

vidcons

Banned
Take Tomb Raider. Add Uncharted chest high cover combat and Gears of War grisly executions. Remove challenging puzzles. Add Detective Mode vision. Add multiplayer. Add XP and skill unlocks.

No, you're right. Lets celebrate this and hope that even more games get this treatment.

i'm sure it'll be terrible for its own reasons
 

sonicmj1

Member
Is my post sadistic?

What are you arguing?

Posters here are saying that they don't think the violence in Tomb Raider fits the tone of the story. Faceless and Lime aren't necessarily on board either with the violence in Gears of War (with its chainsaw bayonets and curbstomps) or the violence in No Russian, or the violence in Sleeping Dogs, or the violence in God of War, or a lot of the violence in the industry. That's a conversation that has been occurring lately in enthusiast circles, and there's more to it than "Oh, the humanity! Think of the children!"

Are you saying that it's not possible to take issue with the portrayal of violence in those games? What sort of alleged hypocrisy are you trying to point out?

I'm not really comfortable telling people what they think about subjects, unless they've already told me how they feel.
 
This walkthrough totally sold me on the game. A bit of spoilers obviously:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhd8LdIipig

I get huge Arkham Asylum vibes from this! :D

TOMB RAIDED

ONE SMART COOKIE

I'm not sure if this is insulting my intelligence, or Lara's.

That menu UI is so bad man, it's like tumblr threw up on Skyrim.

The part where she finishes off the guy she crushes in the explosion is an interesting cold blooded way of being thoughtful. "Go to hell." Yikes.

After watching this, I think the tacked on upgrade system and Detective Mode are actually a much bigger turnoff than the combat/traversal for me. Seems more like Arkham Asylum light with shooting to me than Uncharted.

I hate to say it, but I think I've already guessed the plot :p
 

Varna

Member
Just watched that walkthrough video .WTF there is a detective mode in this too?

I will admit the game is looker. It will look incredible on the PC.

For whatever reason the game reminds me a bit of RE4. I will ultimately it will turn out to be a good game just not one the hardcore fans will accept.
 
Just watched that walkthrough video .WTF there is a detective mode in this too?

I will admit the game is looker. It will look incredible on the PC.

For whatever reason the game reminds me a bit of RE4. I will ultimately it will turn out to be a good game just not one the hardcore fans will accept.

That's kind of what's bothering me about this whole thing. What the hell determines what/who is a "hardcore" fan?
 

antitrop

Member
That's kind of what's bothering me about this whole thing. What the hell determines what/who is a "hardcore" fan?
Thankfully, I'm glad I'm not a hardcore Tomb Raider fan. That way I can actually enjoy this apparently great game without any preconceptions of what its supposed to be ruining my experience.
 

Amir0x

Banned

God I cannot explain the depth of my hatred for modern game design and people who claim to cover this shit

Having trouble and applying brains and your skill sets to getting places in games is the whole fucking point. First, if you got stuck for 6 hours in any aspect of TR3, it's a safe bet the man is a fucking mental cripple. And second, it is a good fucking thing to get stuck in games and require thought to progress! How long are people going to act as if death and learning applied skills are a goddamn net negative in videogames? Get off the train, Eurogamer.

And this review is also illustrative of another point many in this topic have made, probably better than I: the game could score a 19/10 and still be worthless to the detractors. Making tombs optional is a good thing? Fuck outta here.
 

Mindman

Member
That's kind of what's bothering me about this whole thing. What the hell determines what/who is a "hardcore" fan?

I am absolutely a "hardcore" TR fan. Played 'em all. Sure, I wouldn't mind more tombs, but future games will have more as she becomes more of a tomb raider. She's just figuring that out in this game.

I cannot wait to play this game, and I already know I'm gonna love it!
 

Jarmel

Banned
Yet it's literally one of the most mainstream games of all time. Makes me question the legitimacy of your "tons of people" claim.

Are you fucking serious? You're an idiot. The No Russian level got a shitload of controversy and I mean a shitload. You have no clue what you're talking about.
 

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus


Are you kidding me

Are you fucking serious? You're an idiot. The No Russian level got a shitload of controversy and I mean a shitload. You have no clue what you're talking about.
I have no problem with this post at all.
 
Thankfully, I'm glad I'm not a hardcore Tomb Raider fan. That way I can actually enjoy this apparently great game without any preconceptions of what its supposed to be ruining my experience.

But that's the thing, I am a big Tomb Raider fan. So if I end up enjoying this does that make me not a "true" fan.

Same with Resident Evil. I own and have played through every RE game (minus the Game Boy Color games or whatever...played one of them but didn't finish it) and I couldn't have loved RE4 more.......but I guess I'm not a real RE fan. Meh.

I'm just waiting for a digital foundry comparison so I know which one I should buy. Though the PC deals are looking mighty tasty.
 

Skilletor

Member
Can you turn off the UI elements?



Are you kidding me


I have no problem with this post at all.

I laughed out loud.

TOMB RAIDED

ONE SMART COOKIE

I'm not sure if this is insulting my intelligence, or Lara's.

That menu UI is so bad man, it's like tumblr threw up on Skyrim.

The part where she finishes off the guy she crushes in the explosion is an interesting cold blooded way of being thoughtful. "Go to hell." Yikes.

After watching this, I think the tacked on upgrade system and Detective Mode are actually a much bigger turnoff than the combat/traversal for me. Seems more like Arkham Asylum light with shooting to me than Uncharted.

I hate to say it, but I think I've already guessed the plot :p

I don't even understand what detective mode was for. It was hella obvious where she could jump and climb.
 

Varna

Member
Just don't use Survival mode. The game is 100% playable without ever using it.

Is there a mode that disables it, gets rid of the waypoints, compass, hints, xp feedback, regenerating health, lowers ammunition drops and makes stealth viable? Because I would be there day one if there was.

That's basically what 1999 mode in Bioshock Infinite is suppose to be right? If games want to continue to head down this path at the very least this should be in everything. Not hidden as an unlockable either.
 

DasMarcos

Banned
But that's the thing, I am a big Tomb Raider fan. So if I end up enjoying this does that make me not a "true" fan.

Same with Resident Evil. I own and have played through every RE game (minus the Game Boy Color games or whatever...played one of them but didn't finish it) and I couldn't have loved RE4 more.......but I guess I'm not a real RE fan. Meh.

I'm just waiting for a digital foundry comparison so I know which one I should buy. Though the PC deals are looking mighty tasty.

If it makes you feel any better I've also played all the RE's and find RE 4 to be the culmination of the RE experience for various reasons. Just goes to show that whatever rubric "fans" set up shouldn't be all encompassing and stringent as it seems to be these days.
 

Shinta

Banned
Are you fucking serious? You're an idiot. The No Russian level got a shitload of controversy and I mean a shitload. You have no clue what you're talking about.

I read way more people defending it. Even after the Norway mass shooter said he used the game to train for shooting in real life people were still defending it. The game is also one of the best selling games of all time and that level was leaked before release.

Did some people have a problem with it? Yeah, but they were the minority. It didn't negatively impact the game at all.

I think the F.R.A.G. or whatever marketing screw up they had was more negatively received than the No Russian level.
 

Jarmel

Banned
I read way more people defending it. Even after the Norway mass shooter said he used the game to train for shooting in real life people were still defending it. The game is also one of the best selling games of all time and that level was leaked before release.

Did some people have a problem with it? Yeah, but they were the minority. It didn't negatively impact the game at all.

I think the F.R.A.G. or whatever marketing screw up they had was more negatively received than the No Russian level.

This literally took me one minute to find this page. One minute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Call_of_Duty:_Modern_Warfare_2

This isn't even beginning to touch the firestorm this caused on a local level. You really have no clue what you're talking about.
 

nel e nel

Member
What are you arguing?

Posters here are saying that they don't think the violence in Tomb Raider fits the tone of the story. Faceless and Lime aren't necessarily on board either with the violence in Gears of War (with its chainsaw bayonets and curbstomps) or the violence in No Russian, or the violence in Sleeping Dogs, or the violence in God of War, or a lot of the violence in the industry. That's a conversation that has been occurring lately in enthusiast circles, and there's more to it than "Oh, the humanity! Think of the children!"

Are you saying that it's not possible to take issue with the portrayal of violence in those games? What sort of alleged hypocrisy are you trying to point out?

I'm not really comfortable telling people what they think about subjects, unless they've already told me how they feel.

It's not that it's not possible for people to take issue, it's the stance that if one doesn't take issue then you are somehow less intelligent or thoughtful than the people who do.

I thought El Shaddai was a fascinating discussion on the issues of technological advancement, and whether or not we are trying to evolve as a species faster than what we should be, but I don't try to condescend to people who thought it was nothing more than a nifty twist on the rock-paper-scissor mechanic.

There is a lot of 'oh, you're not reflecting on the ludonarrative dissonance in the same way I am, so your opinion must be less worthy' going on in this thread.
 
God I cannot explain the depth of my hatred for modern game design and people who claim to cover this shit

Having trouble and applying brains and your skill sets to getting places in games is the whole fucking point. First, if you got stuck for 6 hours in any aspect of TR3, it's a safe bet the man is a fucking mental cripple. And second, it is a good fucking thing to get stuck in games and require thought to progress! How long are people going to act as if death and learning applied skills are a goddamn net negative in videogames? Get off the train, Eurogamer.

And this review is also illustrative of another point many in this topic have made, probably better than I: the game could score a 19/10 and still be worthless to the detractors. Making tombs optional is a good thing? Fuck outta here.

Because for most of us it is a negative.

The times where a game had me stuck for days are for when I was a child with the time and lack of options to do better things. As a person that has little time to invest on my hobby I do not appreciate obtuse design created to make people "think". Entertainment can be draw in many forms, complexity for complexity sake is not one of them for me.

This "dumbing" down of games mentality is very frustrating to hear. The rating and the audience for this game is not likely going to stand and "think" for 5 hours to get through a section of this game.
 

Shinta

Banned
This literally took me one minute to find this page. One minute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Call_of_Duty:_Modern_Warfare_2

This isn't even beginning to touch the firestorm this caused on a local level. You really have no clue what you're talking about.

I have to leave so you can have the last word.

But just skimming it your evidence is Russia cutting the level because they felt it negatively represented Russians, Japan and Germany censoring it when they censor all kinds of stuff we get normally, and the Salt Lake City Tribune being against it?

Seems kinda weak. Half of the US entry was complimenting it.
 

Jarmel

Banned
I read way more people defending it. Even after the Norway mass shooter said he used the game to train for shooting in real life people were still defending it. The game is also one of the best selling games of all time and that level was leaked before release.

Did some people have a problem with it? Yeah, but they were the minority. It didn't negatively impact the game at all.

I think the F.R.A.G. or whatever marketing screw up they had was more negatively received than the No Russian level.

Oh and forgot to mention, the reason it sold so well had nothing to do with the single-player. It was the sequel to COD4, which is widely considered one of the best multiplayer shooters this generation.

I have to leave so you can have the last word.

But just skimming it your evidence is Russia cutting the level because they felt it negatively represented Russians, Japan and Germany censoring it when they censor all kinds of stuff we get normally, and the Salt Lake City Tribune being against it?

Seems kinda weak. Half of the US entry was complimenting it.

http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/700623/modern-warfare-2-controversy-hits-fox-news/

Fox News coverage.
 

Skilletor

Member
Because for most of us it is a negative.

The times where a game had me stuck for days are for when I was a child with the time and lack of options to do better things. As a person that has little time to invest on my hobby I do not appreciate obtuse design created to make people "think". Entertainment can be draw in many forms, complexity for complexity sake is not one of them for me.

This "dumbing" down of games mentality is very frustrating to hear. The rating and the audience for this game is not likely going to stand and "think" for 5 hours to get through a section of this game.

If you get stuck for 5 hours in a game, you should probably work on some critical thinking skills.

But whatever, people like you have obviously won. You've even got a "I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK TO DO MODE" that even highlights obvious places to jump. As if the visual cue without wasn't enough.

Fuck thinking. I need to smash open more crates to get XP that does absolutely nothing but give me gratification that XP appeared on the screen.
 

sublimit

Banned
If you want them, they're still there. You actually have to explore to find them.

It appears you don't really have to "explore" all that much.From The EDGE review:

Another path might lead to a Hidden Tomb in need of raiding, although that’s a misnomer: you’re alerted to their proximity by a popup, and their entrances are clearly marked with hieroglyphic scrawls. Inside each, you’ll find a single-room physics puzzle.

Seriously if this isn't a dumbed down version of one of the core,basic elements of this series (exploration) then i don't know what it is.

By the sound of the reviews, even the positive ones, the optional tombs are simplistic, one-room puzzles.

EDGE confirmed that.


Unlike EDGE she uses vague terms in order to describe the exploration.What is "excellent exploration" for her?What means "satisfying routes"?She then goes on and says:"beautiful vistas and atmospheric tombs" but unlike EDGE she forgets to mention that these optional tombs are just single rooms with a physics puzzle.

"Beautiful vistas and atmospheric tombs" might be all the Uncharted and casual fans wants from this game but long time fans want a bit more substance if they want us to continue calling this game "Tomb Raider."
 
Because for most of us it is a negative.

The times where a game had me stuck for days are for when I was a child with the time and lack of options to do better things. As a person that has little time to invest on my hobby I do not appreciate obtuse design created to make people "think". Entertainment can be draw in many forms, complexity for complexity sake is not one of them for me.

This "dumbing" down of games mentality is very frustrating to hear. The rating and the audience for this game is not likely going to stand and "think" for 5 hours to get through a section of this game.

Ehhhh I would kind of agree, but it depends on the game. If you know damn well there's gonna be puzzles in a game then that's on you if you get stuck for forever. I like to be challenged by a puzzle as long as it isn't stupid shit like Uncharted 3's mural puzzle. Took me over an hour to figure that one out, and even then it was mostly by luck.

Oh and when I was younger I got stuck in the original Resident Evil for an entire year. After I accepted I was stuck, I would turn it on once a week for about an hour to see if I could figure it out. I had no idea you could open the books that had the medals or whatever in them. One whole fucking year.
 

kunonabi

Member
Because for most of us it is a negative.

The times where a game had me stuck for days are for when I was a child with the time and lack of options to do better things. As a person that has little time to invest on my hobby I do not appreciate obtuse design created to make people "think". Entertainment can be draw in many forms, complexity for complexity sake is not one of them for me.

This "dumbing" down of games mentality is very frustrating to hear. The rating and the audience for this game is not likely going to stand and "think" for 5 hours to get through a section of this game.

So it's ok to cater to you who don't want to be bothered with actually playing a video game but it isn't ok to give the rest of us anything remotely similar to what we enjoy out of the medium that can't be done anywhere else? Dumbing down is exactly what is happening since instant gratification has become so incredibly important to people.
 

Spazznid

Member
Is it wrong that I despised the "No Russian" level completely, but I'd fight to the death for TR to keep the violence?

In CoD, that level's entire purpose, was to incite an emotion that didn't fit at all with the game. Maybe it's because CoD's use of loading screens to tell the story, and it's ridiculous "Story"..

But in the new TR, I find the violence is a part of the story and is an artistic necessity...
 

Amir0x

Banned
Because for most of us it is a negative.

The times where a game had me stuck for days are for when I was a child with the time and lack of options to do better things. As a person that has little time to invest on my hobby I do not appreciate obtuse design created to make people "think". Entertainment can be draw in many forms, complexity for complexity sake is not one of them for me.

This "dumbing" down of games mentality is very frustrating to hear. The rating and the audience for this game is not likely going to stand and "think" for 5 hours to get through a section of this game.

If you think intellectual game design that requires one to actually rub two brain cells together is "obtuse design", I'm not sure what else there is to say... it's everything that's wrong with the industry, but no one is disputing people feel that way. It's partially why Uncharted shite is popular in the first place, after all.

The whole point of the very best games that exist is that you take a set of applied skills, usually among what the game teaches you as they gradually notch up that difficulty, and then utilize them to overcome challenges that may be quite difficult indeed. The fun came from overcoming the challenges, that sense of reward that is second to no unearned victory. The best games do this in a smooth gradient fashion wherein by the time you get to the hardest stuff, you always feel it's your fault for losing and not the games. It's part of the core appeal of the Demon/Dark Souls games, actually, and they thrive on the whole nature of making gamers apply skills they've learned. Because that's simply what the best games do, never used to be they thought they had to coddle gamers like some dribbling infant. But that's how we're treated these days in games with their 1 hour tutorials and hand-holding set piece atrocities.

If you have little time to invest in the hobby, then there are a trillion no-thought games out there as well to satisfy every glazed-eye fantasy there is. I hear iPhone games are a blast. All touch screen and shit, don't even have to be concerned about shit like multiple buttons and whatnot.
 

Andrew.

Banned
Oh and when I was younger I got stuck in the original Resident Evil for an entire year. After I accepted I was stuck, I would turn it on once a week for about an hour to see if I could figure it out. I had no idea you could open the books that had the medals or whatever in them. One whole fucking year.

Haha! That's fucking awesome!
 

Totobeni

An blind dancing ho
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-25-tomb-raider-review

so many problems and wrong things but reviewer still gave it 8/10,don't really get this.

Yes, game series must be allowed to move on. Otherwise there would be no Mario 64, no Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, no Jambo Safari Wii. The problem with Tomb Raider is not that it's trying to do something new. The problem is it's trying to do what everyone else is doing.

Mario 64,PnP PS2 stayed very faithful to ther series original genre unlike this game.

Thankfully she does not do too much thinking out loud, unlike some video game characters (yes you, Alan

isn't that the "style" of story telling in Alan Wake or Max Payne..?
 
Because for most of us it is a negative.

The times where a game had me stuck for days are for when I was a child with the time and lack of options to do better things. As a person that has little time to invest on my hobby I do not appreciate obtuse design created to make people "think". Entertainment can be draw in many forms, complexity for complexity sake is not one of them for me.

This "dumbing" down of games mentality is very frustrating to hear. The rating and the audience for this game is not likely going to stand and "think" for 5 hours to get through a section of this game.

Wow this is depressing to read.
 
Wow this is depressing to read.
Seriously. If this game represents trends for the future of gaming, well, then what got me into games in the first place is fast becoming the same thing moving me away from it. Violence is now an acceptable substitute for unique environmental puzzle gameplay, because people don't want to have to think? Is that seriously what I'm reading here?

Have you ever heard of something being greater than the sum of its parts? Well yeah that applies here.
Certainly seems like it.

Please qualify. Having to figure out where to go is the point?
In an environmental puzzle game? Yes, it is. Where to go, and how exactly to get there, and what to do when you get there is the challenge.
 

jett

D-Member
Watching the GT review, I had no idea this game was so violent. Some of that shit wouldn't look out of place on Manhunt.
 
Haha! That's fucking awesome!

No...no it was not. I just remember thinking "Wow I got this on my 11th birthday and now I'm 12 and I still haven't figured this out...ugh let me try again"

I actually figured it out on my 12th birthday.....it's was like a present from my brain. One of the best gifts I ever got.
 

s-bojan

Member
If you want them, they're still there. You actually have to explore to find them.

Yes, you really have to dig hard, as the game notifies you when you are close to a tomb.
Besides that,
after 3/4 of the game, there is a skill that, if bought, make them visible on the map.

And for the guys not loving the game - just wait until you see the unlockable videos :).
 

Amir0x

Banned
Please qualify. Having to figure out where to go is the point?

It's not about having to 'figure out where to go', and you almost never had to do that in TR games either. It was always about figuring out HOW to go, not WHERE to go. Most of the time it's immediately obvious where you progress in these games, it's just not always readily apparent the how of it.

And that is partially the point of the game, that's correct. That you're EXPLORING a tomb and using skill sets you've learned throughout the course of the game and applying them meaningfully to overcoming a set of challenges, whether that be in puzzle form, combat form or exploration form. The whole point of these exercises is that they ARE challenging, because the best developers trust the gamers enough to understand that a genuine sense of accomplishment is probably the greatest feeling games can offer - and such a feeling is only possible when applied against real gameplay challenges. They don't think of it in terms of 'well the average QA tester finished this segment in 15 minutes, that's far too long for today's modern ADHD-addled audience to sit and think', they think of it in terms of 'the only players worth catering to are those who are going to put in the effort to actually apply themselves and overcome great gameplay design challenges.'
 
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