• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Trump and Europe are teaming up against China on trade

Super Mario

Banned
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump-europe-teaming-china-trade-215121314.html

President Trump called it “a very big day for free and fair trade.” That’s Trumpian hyperbole, but the president’s new efforts to smooth out trade disputes with Europe include one major new development.

After meeting with European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker, Trump hosted a short press conference to highlight what transpired: There’s a new goal to eliminate tariffs on many goods traded between the two regions and to “resolve” Trump’s new tariffs on steel and aluminum imports. Europe pledged to buy more American energy and agricultural products. And the two giant economies will try to improve cooperation on technical standards, which could ultimately boost trade.

The last point Trump mentioned may be the most significant, however. Trump said the United States and Europe will work together to “address unfair trading practices,” including “forced technology transfer,” “theft of intellectual property” and “overcapacity.” Neither man mentioned China, but that’s exactly who they were talking about.

President Donald Trump and European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker speak in the Rose Garden of the White House, Wednesday, July 25, 2018, in Washington. (AP Photo/Pablo Martinez Monsivais)
Virtually all advanced nations have the same complaints about China: It forces foreign firms to turn over key technology as a condition of doing business in the country. It copies or steals trade secrets belonging to foreign firms. And it subsidizes giant companies that produce steel, aluminum and other commodities, allowing them to undercut foreign rivals on price, gobble up market share and drive foreign competition out of business.

Trump has tried to address those problems, mostly by slapping tariffs on Chinese imports and insisting that China reduce its trade surplus with the United States. Most trade experts say that won’t work. But joining with allies and pressuring China together could work, they say. And the place to start is at the World Trade Organization, the mysterious, globalist, technocratic trade arbiter Trump has repeatedly bashed, to the delight of his supporters.

Reforming the WTO
Trump has moved toward the mainstream, at least for a while. Trump said Europe and the United States will work with “like-minded partners” within the WTO to address China’s trade abuses. That’s a good idea. The United States and dozens of other nations formed the WTO in 1995, when China was still a fledgling, developing economy that qualified for more protections than advanced economies. China entered the WTO in 2001, opening the door to becoming the export colossus it is now.
China is now the world’s second-largest economy, and there’s no other nation that intervenes in the economy on the scale China does. The trade honchos who formed the WTO in the 1990s never quite foresaw that, and the WTO lacks many of the tools to deal with China’s unique economic model.
Reforming the WTO to bring China to heel would be the kind of drawn-out, detail-oriented forward crawl that Trump seems to despise. So his interest could wane and he might not follow through. But of all the moves China should fear, a revamped WTO that sharply limits China’s ability to pump government money into giant, home-grown firms is probably more threatening than Trump’s tariffs.
Other trade announcements Trump made were less impressive. Trump said the two regions would work toward zero tariffs on “non-auto industrial goods.” Fine, but autos are the biggest sticking point between Trump and Europe, not fruit or leather or bourbon. And there was no mention of any action on autos. That means Trump’s threat to put a 20% tariff on all imported autos remains, which would roil the industry if it were to happen.
Both sides also emphasized that they were beginning “talks” to lower trade barriers between the United States and Europe, without any actual commitments. And Trump and Juncker both indicated either party could terminate the agreement, which means it’s more of an agreement to try to agree than anything tangible. Still, Trump’s bluster was subdued and he didn’t insult anyone. Maybe it was a big day after all.

In other news, hidden audio tapes reveal Trump asking for a Coke
 

Gander

Banned
I don't know if this will be a success or not but I've come to realize how you achieve goals matters. Who you are as a person matters.
 
Last edited:
I hope they had a good firm handshake instead of a comprehensive deal to adress the underlying problems. Like with Kim.
 
Last edited:

dolabla

Member
So those Chinese companies that were built on fraud and theft of US intellectual property, trade secrets and corporate espionage may go by the wayside? Good riddance.

China, not Russia, is the biggest threat to the US.
 
A trans atlantic trade agreement meant to fight off a growing china!

Genius

giphy.gif
 
This is an agreement to have talks. It's nothing exciting.

TPP might make a return though.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

NickFire

Member
This is an agreement to have talks. It's nothing exciting.

TPP might make a return though.

Hey now, the MSM spent weeks / months making claims that Trump's strategy was doomed to fail, and holding up any European leader who said words to the effect of "Fuck Trump" as some sort of hero. That the EU is not agreeing to keep working towards a goal after the same guy said he did not expect the talks to go anywhere, is a good sign worthy of excitement for those who voted on economic issues.
 

Texas Pride

Banned
So those Chinese companies that were built on fraud and theft of US intellectual property, trade secrets and corporate espionage may go by the wayside? Good riddance.

China, not Russia, is the biggest threat to the US.


I've said this shit right here for awhile. China absolutely is the biggest threat to America and everything else is misdirection. They want to replace the U.S in the global stage and everything they're doing supports that goal. I know people like to shit on America but seriously god help the world if China ever gains control. Regardless of trade a major conflict with China at some point is a certainty. It would behoove us to prepare for it.
 

JordanN

Banned
I've said this shit right here for awhile. China absolutely is the biggest threat to America and everything else is misdirection. They want to replace the U.S in the global stage and everything they're doing supports that goal. I know people like to shit on America but seriously god help the world if China ever gains control. Regardless of trade a major conflict with China at some point is a certainty. It would behoove us to prepare for it.
I'm waking up to this question as well.

Not that I don't want to see China succeed, but pure globalism has had a negative effect on Western countries. For as much as people brag about "cheap smartphones", we're seeing those jobs go overseas and not back here in North America.
China benefits from this immensly, while American countries either start laying off people or outsourcing to China.

It creates a future where China has all the jobs (and money) and all Western countries are out of them. We can still do business with China, but just don't hand over all our companies and resources to them on a silver platter.
 
Last edited:
1. China won't lose a trade war, it is *the* leading global trade and manufacturing power. It has more liquidity to work with than Europe and North America combined.
2. Europe is not siding against China in any tariff war.
 
Nobody can do anything against China. It literally can do whatever and west can't do anything.
It is not a Russia with a single source of income - resources. West can't and won't be able to sanction China as it has factories.

Cannot wait to see how China will start to enforce its imperial politics while west will only complain as literally it has zero influence over it. Unlike western countries, China more of less autocracy meaning that while democratic governments will do infighting over the politics and interests, Chinese leader will tell the new course and the whole machine will move towards it.

Soviet Union v2, but without NATO border.
 
Last edited:

Dunki

Member
This is an agreement to have talks. It's nothing exciting.

TPP might make a return though.
I am pretty sure Trump was against this bullshit. Also I say it again. Trump maybe an asshole but he if he does one thing well for the sake of the US its this kind of stuff. It will benefit US in the long run and China can not do anything about it. Also great that he is going to penalize Turkey. Again the only person who does something about the tyranny of Erdogan.
 
Last edited:
Going to be very hard to beat china if they make significant progress in North Korea and Africa. North Korea playing nice with the western world by getting the sanctions on it remove could help China in the long run. As NK is sitting roughly $6 trillion worth of minerals. With Africa, China is going to help with economy by making developments throughout the region. US will be too slow if everything goes smoothly for China.
 
Last edited:

NickFire

Member
Going to be very hard to beat china if they make significant progress in North Korea and Africa. North Korea playing nice with the western world by getting the sanctions on it remove could help China in the long run. As NK is sitting roughly $6 trillion worth of minerals. With Africa, China is going to help with economy by making developments throughout the region. US will be too slow if everything goes smoothly for China.

Is this the first post as to why Trump will still be a failure if we make peace with North Korea?
 

TheMikado

Banned
A trans atlantic trade agreement meant to fight off a growing china!

Genius

giphy.gif

Exactly... So far this has what the trade negotiations have amounted to.

Trump pulls out of TPP
Supporters claim it was the worst thing in the world and would destroy America.
Trump makes almost exact same deal as TPP.
Supporters claim its the best thing in the world and saved America...

That's the entire problem with this. All these mechanisms were literally already in place in TPP, nothing they've said wasn't already happening but people are falling for it left and right. Its absurd. I'm not a fan of the TPP, but tearing down the TPP just to make the same deals is idiotic and and I can't believe fools are falling for this.
 

NickFire

Member
I had no intention of bashing Trump when I wrote it.

You should be more careful next time. Just checked a couple MSM sites. Everyone is claiming that a leading economic expert, who prefers to stay in the shadows, has confirmed that Trump is seeking peace with North Korea to help China who brokered the deal when he agreed to collude with Russia. See what you've done!
 
Hey now, the MSM spent weeks / months making claims that Trump's strategy was doomed to fail, and holding up any European leader who said words to the effect of "Fuck Trump" as some sort of hero. That the EU is not agreeing to keep working towards a goal after the same guy said he did not expect the talks to go anywhere, is a good sign worthy of excitement for those who voted on economic issues.

The initial strategy of Trump has completely failed. Trade is hard and he has to 180 all of his strategy. Finally, some actual diplomacy will kick in. And I see TPP coming back as is and then some.

I am pretty sure Trump was against this bullshit. Also I say it again. Trump maybe an asshole but he if he does one thing well for the sake of the US its this kind of stuff. It will benefit US in the long run and China can not do anything about it. Also great that he is going to penalize Turkey. Again the only person who does something about the tyranny of Erdogan.

Trump likes erdogan. I dunno how much Trump is running things anymore.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Dunki

Member
The initial strategy of Trump has completely failed. Trade is hard and he has to 180 all of his strategy. Finally, some actual diplomacy will kick in. And I see TPP coming back as is and then some.



Trump likes erdogan. I dunno how much Trump is running things anymore.
In GErman news he talks about arrested american journalists who are still in jail and thats why he wants to pnealize Turkey like he did with North Korea
 

iamblades

Member
1. China won't lose a trade war, it is *the* leading global trade and manufacturing power. It has more liquidity to work with than Europe and North America combined.
2. Europe is not siding against China in any tariff war.

Not really, when you look at value added instead of just raw import/export numbers.

As for liquidity, you are aware that China is currently experiencing a debt bubble that makes sub-prime look quaint, are you not?

The difference is that China has yet to put that debt on the government balance sheet. It will have to eventually, so the public debt is going to explode. That or China just fucks over all the depositors and murders anyone who complains, which given the historic behavior of the Chinese government and Xi's recent consolidation of power is not an unlikely scenario.

Either way China has long term structural issues that need to be addressed. The status quo is unsustainable for China in the absence of a trade war, they are creating like 6 dollars of debt for every dollar of GDP growth.

With a trade war, they quickly run into major issues, not that I think the trade war is a good idea or that the US will 'win' it, even if we manage to not piss of Europe completely in the process, Just that it will completely destroy the Chinese economy.
 
1. China won't lose a trade war, it is *the* leading global trade and manufacturing power.

Most of its manufacturing capacity is not geared towards domestic consuption. Without free access to our markets, their economy would be hurt much worse than ours, with a loss of trading due to tariffs etc. We sell them a fraction of what they sell us. If we walk away from trading with them, they lose far more than us. Trump is renegotiating and reorienting the world commerce system. Chinese people like "Uncle" Trump. China may lose money with Trump, but they respect Trump's direct transactional "deal maker" attitude without moral sermons.
 
To put things into perspective, of China's $4.1 trillion in trade in 2017, US accounted for $0.6 trillion. US has no alternatives for the bulk of that, it can't just switch China for another trade partner of such magnitude. It can't fill that capacity domestically. Tariffs of 20% on the import portion (500b) of that amount every year would amount to just $100 billion in outflows from China to the US, or $0 billion if China retaliated in kind-eg ban apple and have local providers take its Chinese domestic revenue share and storefronts. Precedents exist, eg google/facebook. They missed out on hundreds of billions in revenue by being banned. So many indirect options.

Even if China swallowed that temporarily, it doesn't have to stick around. It's economy grows by $1.2 trillion every 12 months and it would slowly shift that 500 billion elsewhere. It is developing Africa as we speak. Africa as a whole could swallow that difference in ~10-15 years. It has an economy of $2.2 trillion with 6% average growth year-year. It's a tiger for all intents and purposes and China is already its largest trade partner ($300 billion annually as of 2017).

Anyway, that's some perspective.

In quarter 4 of 2017 - q1 of 2018 China surpassed the US as the world's largest consumer market. Back in 2014 it became the biggest luxury goods consumption market (eg. high end smart phones, laptops, etc). Back in 2016 it became the biggest software market (eg games) . In 2017 it became the biggest entertainment market (eg movies). We're at the cusp of a major global transition. Right in the thick of it.

And yes most companies in China that produce goods are making them for the domestic market. A small proportion of the biggest ones actually export abroad. So most Chinese companies are dependent on local sales. But what drives most Chinese economic growth, despite consumption being so big and service sector growing year-year, is actually construction. That's entirely domestic too.

Only thing China doesn't have is a large private investor finance market, but that actually shields it from global economic trends. Finance and banks are still strictly government controlled. Public has limited participation.

Anyway neither the US nor Europe have the tools at their disposal to hurt China's domestic economic core. Europe doesn't even have the will because why would it. It is happy with the trade situation.

Not really, when you look at value added instead of just raw import/export numbers.

China produces 70% of global high technology, most of it is consumed domestically. This is as high up the value chain as you can go. They've been cultivating microprocessor design and fabrication over the past 5 years and domestic facilities are becoming available. By 2020 the first phase will be complete. This is the final piece of the value adding puzzle. To design and build the brains of high technology devices. China can already do it on a small scale, that looks set to ramp up very soon. AMD already sold them a license for the Ryzen architecture, a nice boost.

It is my job to keep current on this, I work in the IT sector and China is at the center of any decision my company makes. Granted Australia has China as our largest import/export/investment partner, but so do 60% of other countries, i.e most.

Even with a smaller nominal GDP than the US, China's share of global trade is dominant - only sector where nominal measure matters; it is now the biggest importer/exporter of goods thanks to a massive uptick in imports of raw resources from Africa in 2017. But in real effective terms domestically speaking, when adjusted for costs, its economy is already 30% larger than America's, and pulling further ahead because its workforce has so much further to go in regards to wage growth and productivity improvement. This is a lethal combination. Whoever picks an economic war with China today will be so sorry at the end of it. It's too late to throw a spanner in the works. Maybe this would have worked in the early 2000's, but American companies were too busy getting rich off China's cheap labour back then. The irony is, they still are, but China is too big to bully now.

This has little to do with Trump. American oligarchs saw China's trillion dollar plans for the new five lane silk road and went into full panic mode. If China establishes dominance over Eurasia its over for America in Eurasia AND the Western Pacific. Empire ded. Somebody has been feeding Trump nonsense to incite him to react spastically. It won't work. Too late. He can only hurt US relations with China and cripple future economic prospects for American companies in the worlds most dynamic market (i.e China).
 
Last edited:

KonradLaw

Member
As it should always have been. EU can't have fully free trade with USA, as it would decimate it's economy. Some barriers, subsidies and standards are required for EU to thrive. But China is the real threat and only USA and EU as partners can tackle it. I think it's be too late for them to stop it's rise to dominant worldwide economuic power, but together they will always be at the very last big enough to protect their own markets from chinese takeover, even if they fail to do so for the rest of the world. At this point both USA and EU need China, but they should be controlling very tightly how much they allow them to grow on their own markets and stop them from taking over any key areas.
 
Top Bottom