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VG247: "If Xbox can't beat PS5 this holiday, I'm not sure it ever will"

kingfey

Banned
Aren't we past the point of console wars?
This is pure bait, and nobody cares abour it.
CLICKS

Clicks GIF by DrSquatchSoapCo
 

Three

Member
Are you dense? Honestly.

You need to actually buy the game to play it right?

this isnt f2p game. This is a game, where you spend money, to access the game in the first place.

Its like saying ps+ users dont count, because they didnt buy the game. when they actually spent money on ps+ to play those games.

FOR THE LAST TIME. YOU NEED TO BUY A GAME, TO BE COUNTED. UNLESS THE GAME IS F2P.

Are you trying to get yourself banned with this ? Who said anything about gamepass players not counting towards anything? Or that people don't pay for subscriptions?

The only claim I made is that games on subscription models skew cumulative numbers even further away from active player base because being a cost you pay with or without the games release you are more likely to just check it out but not take an interest to it to remain active. Just as I'm more likely to click on some random new netflix movie because it's new and possibly interesting vs paying to go to the cinema where I would have had to have an interest in the movie to begin with. That's all. Games on subscriptions or f2p games have cumulative numbers that differ more than their active playerbase.


you are saying they arent owners.

Paying the subscription counts as owner too. They are spending money to play the game.

Try reading for once. The claim is that there are 1.5M Premium Edition owners. Now what does a subscription have to do with this? I never said anything about gamepass or non-gamepass anything.

Claim: 1.5M player count on leaderboard = 1.5M premium edition owners.

Me: They are players not owners.

You: prove it.

Me: prove they are premium edition owners.

You: prove they're not.

Now we're at an impasse
 
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kingfey

Banned
The only claim I made is that games on subscription models skew cumulative numbers even further away from active player base because being a cost you pay with or without the games release you are more likely to just check it out but not take an interest to it to remain active.
The claim is that there are 1.5M Premium Edition owners. Now what does a subscription have to do with this? I never said anything about gamepass or non-gamepass anything.
Claim: 1.5M player count on leaderboard = 1.5M premium edition owners.

Me: They are players not owners.
Pick one.
 

Three

Member
So using your COD4 Remastered example, you're saying FH5's 5-6M player count are a bunch of people who downloaded the game and have barely played the game.

Technically, youre right. It just came out. I've only played it for 40 minutes. Does that count?

Or are you going to downplay all the people unless they've put in 48 hrs of gaming during launch week?
No I didn't say anyone barely played a game. Yes it absolutely counts for when you were online. I'm not here telling you that you are not playing the game or have no interest in it.

It shows 74,000 in game users. I dont know Kingfey, Three might need proof if those Steam users are actually playing the game or they loaded up the game to just stare at the title screen.
So whats 75,000 as a fraction of 5M?

If I said "there are 5M people playing the game right now" when there are actually around 75k would I be correct?

What's the difference between 5M and 75k, am I right? For the third time. I'm not saying FH5 is a flop or anything of the sort. Just that cumulative player count/sales are not the correct metric for active player base.
 
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Three

Member
Pick one.
Pick one what?

I think you have two different subjects mixed up in your head somewhere.

1.5M unique players on leaderboard != "1.5 premium edition owners"

The burden of proof is on you if you're making the claim it is.

5M unique players on leaderboard != "5M people playing the game right now"


The second is even more true for games on subs and f2p games as the entry cost to try is less. Don't mix up your subjects.
 
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kingfey

Banned
Yes it absolutely counts for when you were online. I'm not here telling you that you are not playing the game or have no interest in it.



So whats 75,000 as a fraction of 5M?

If I said "there are 5M people playing the game right now" when there are actually around 75k would I be correct?

What's the difference between 5M and 75k, am I right? For the third time. I'm not saying FH5 is a flop or anything of the sort. Just that cumulative player count/sales are not the correct metric for active player base.
Look here man.

PLayer count doesnt mean, active users.

That 74k is active right now. They dont count yesterday players.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Yes it absolutely counts for when you were online. I'm not here telling you that you are not playing the game or have no interest in it.



So whats 75,000 as a fraction of 5M?

If I said "there are 5M people playing the game right now" when there are actually around 75k would I be correct?

What's the difference between 5M and 75k, am I right? For the third time. I'm not saying FH5 is a flop or anything of the sort. Just that cumulative player count/sales are not the correct metric for active player base.
So now your definition of active player count is who's playing at this very minute?

So a game like COD Vanguard that probably sold 10 million copies on launch day but at any given minute only has maybe 150,000 users playing it means the active user base is bad?

Are you for real?
 
The beauty of a service is you have access to the entire catalogue in your own time. There is no law requiring that you only play the last "hot" thing that was released at any given time.
Fail Empire Strikes Back GIF by Star Wars

Nope, the games/movies/tv shows usually remain on such services for only a few months (ex.: Seinfeld was put on Amazon video years ago... Removed and now the show is on Netflix but not Amazon)... Games are like that too, if you still want to play it after a while you still need to buy one, and if you play a single game that much you should not get a service like GP / psnow/whatever because you don't get the benefits of a library that changes all the time.
 

Kataploom

Member
Nah, MS is in the slow game now, and they've already "beaten" PS5 due to this being mostly an availability competition
 

JLB

Member
I understand your point and you're 100% correct.
My issue was simply the examples of Kodak and the others, since Sony didn't show an iota of the stubbornness that these companies had. I don't think they're comparable. The last time Sony acted like them was during the early PS3 days.

I think I probably read too much into your original post and misunderstood its point, though. Sorry, man. (y)

What the hell is going on on Gaf lately that people is polite and with good manners? I'll start to believe that the vaccine has something to do /s
 

phil_t98

Gold Member
Are you trying to get yourself banned with this ? Who said anything about gamepass players not counting towards anything? Or that people don't pay for subscriptions?

The only claim I made is that games on subscription models skew cumulative numbers even further away from active player base because being a cost you pay with or without the games release you are more likely to just check it out but not take an interest to it to remain active. Just as I'm more likely to click on some random new netflix movie because it's new and possibly interesting vs paying to go to the cinema where I would have had to have an interest in the movie to begin with. That's all. Games on subscriptions or f2p games have cumulative numbers that differ more than their active playerbase.




Try reading for once. The claim is that there are 1.5M Premium Edition owners. Now what does a subscription have to do with this? I never said anything about gamepass or non-gamepass anything.

Claim: 1.5M player count on leaderboard = 1.5M premium edition owners.

Me: They are players not owners.

You: prove it.

Me: prove they are premium edition owners.

You: prove they're not.

Now we're at an impasse

the game wasn’t playable on gamepass unless it was premium edition was ownd
 

Three

Member
So a game like COD Vanguard that probably sold 10 million copies on launch day but at any given minute only has maybe 150,000 users playing it means the active user base is bad?

Are you for real?
Your reading comprehension is the only thing that's bad:

I hope FH5 does really well and it really seems to have but you need to stop using incorrect metrics.

Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not sayin FH5 is actually a flop or anything,
I used the example of another successful game to show that active players are a very very small fraction of sales or cumulative players at any one time and that one value can only go up whereas the other can more than half in less than a week. I'm just saying it's the wrong metric that's all.

Somebody said "5M people are playing FH5 right now"

They used the cumulative unique player count on the leaderboard interchangeably with active players. I said this isn't the correct metric to use and it is especially very skewed with low cost of entry games like those offered on subs or f2p where people try but may not remain active. At no point did I say the active player base is bad. In fact I went out of my way to explain that the game is a success and I wish it more success. I simply said this is the wrong metric to use for "people playing right now".

I used an example of COD to show the difference that active players is a very small fraction of leaderboard numbers and how over time one metric drops considerably and the other goes nowhere but up and now you're doing the same thing with CoD vanguard thinking you have me in a gotcha but only showing again that the metric is a fraction and that leaderboard numbers will continue to rise but active players drop in less than a week.
 
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BootsLoader

Member
I think that Xbox SX is not set to beat PS5 ever in any way. In MS they just have their own way and they follow it, that’s all.
 

Three

Member
the game wasn’t playable on gamepass unless it was premium edition was ownd
They are not necessarily owners though. They are unique players on a leaderboard and I said historically you can't equate that to owners. none of the COD leaderboard numbers match the known sales figures either. People share accounts, people have siblings/family, people show games to others, some people even have alts.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Your reading comprehension is the only thing that's bad:




Somebody said "5M people are playing FH5 right now"

They used the cumulative unique player count on the leaderboard interchangeably with active players. I said this isn't the correct metric to use and it is especially very skewed with low cost of entry games like those offered on subs or f2p where people try but may not remain active. At no point did I say the active player base is bad. In fact I went out of my way to explain that the game is a success and I wish it more success. I simply said this is the wrong metric to use for "people playing right now".

I used an example of COD to show the difference that active players is a very small fraction of leaderboard numbers and how over time one metric drops considerably and the other goes nowhere but up and now you're doing the same thing with CoD vanguard thinking you have me in a gotcha but only showing again that the metric is a fraction and that leaderboard numbers will continue to rise but active players drop in less than a week.
LOL.

Given the game just came out, just about all of that player count is going to be active. Why you would compare that to a 5 year old COD4 Remastered player pool where the actual number of gamers still playing it now would obviously drop off a lot.

We all know what game you're trying to do. Weed down that 5-6M player count after 5 days to be as small as possible active player count to the minute (which for me is 12:10 pm eastern time) trying to make it look like tons of people logged in but nobody is playing it.

Your post history is PS fan all the way.
 

MasterCornholio

Gold Member
we keep trying to tell him, player count, doesnt equal active users.

All of us tried to tell him that.

So your actually admitting to what you did. Look when you request a ban it's not correct to create an alt to wipe your history clean. You either handle what happens here or you don't post at all. I'm seeing a similar pattern emerging from you right now and I won't be surprised if you asked for a break.

No idea why you thought I was talking about something else.
 

kingpotato

Ask me about my Stream Deck
Looking at that article, it's written in a way to make whatever fanboy hear what they what, whether it's:

Xbox is the best
Playstation has and will continue to dominate

Even PC only gamers, knowing ports are day 1 or at the very least, basically guaranteed, can easily read this as:

PC gamers are the real winners

The reader could go into the article with whatever bias and come out the other side with it intact. Basically a non story article and for everyone that complains about shoddy journalism, well considering the article got clicks from this post and 500 replies in a thread... We deserve this shit.
 

Three

Member
Given the game just came out, just about all of that player count is going to be active.
No you're just trying really hard to use incorrect metrics even when you clearly have the correct ones right in front of you for "how many people are playing the game right now".

You keep trying to point out how old CODMWR is but what does it matter if I used launch peak numbers? It doesn’t. It only showed that one value goes up and the other comes down so you should use the correct metric.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
No you're just trying really hard to use incorrect metrics even when you clearly have the correct ones right in front of you for "how many people are playing the game right now".
Your definition of active user being right this minute players (like Steam in-game tracker) and comparing to a total player count is you purposely trying to make FH5 look like nobody is playing the game.

I have never seen someone try to do this to a game.

Every game will be like this. COD and FIFA sell 20 million copies a year. You dont have 20 million people playing at the same time 24/7. You probably dont even get 500,000 at any minute. But that doesn't mean only 500,000 play the game total and the other 19.5 million gave up. People play at different times of the day on different days.
 
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Alan Wake

Member
Some are obviously still left behind in the old era where you measured success with units sold. That's not the case anymore.

I don't think Xbox will outsell PlayStation this gen either, even the Xbox 360 couldn't beat the PS3 in the end despite all the fuck-ups from Sony . But again, if Microsoft can make a shit ton of money on Game Pass and keep that service growing, who cares.
 

Three

Member
Your definition of active user being right this minute players (like Steam in-game tracker) and comparing to a total player count is you purposely trying to make FH5 look like nobody is playing the game.

Every game will be like this. COD and FIFA sell 20 million copies a year. You dont have 20 million people playing at the same time 24/7. You probably dont even get 500,000 at any minute. But that doesn't mean only 500,000 play the game total and the other 19.5 million gave up. People play at different times of the day on different days.

So completely ignore the fact that I said the game is doing really well and I hope it does really well. Ignore this again. Sure why not.

Answer this very simple question. What would matter to me trying to join a lobby: The 75,000 people actively playing the game right now or the 5M unique players who have charted on a leaderboard. Then you understand who the fanboy is trying to use some other metric.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
So completely ignore the fact that I said the game is doing really well and I hope it does really well. Ignore this again. Sure why not.

Answer this very simple question. What would matter to me trying to join a lobby: The 75,000 people actively playing the game right now or the 5M unique players who have charted on a leaderboard. Then you understand who the fanboy is trying to use some other metric.
The 5M.

The game just came out and Steam players in-game is at 75,000. That even excludes Xbox console gamers.

Without a new game launch at 5M players, you wouldnt get this many gamers playing. If the game only had 1M player count, the gamers playing it right now might be only 15,000. If it was a small indie game and there was only 100,000 in the player count leaderboard, the actual number of people playing for your lobbies might only be at 1,000.
 

Three

Member
The 5M.

The game just came out and Steam players in-game is at 75,000. That even excludes Xbox console gamers.

Without a new game launch at 5M players, you wouldnt get this many gamers playing. If the game only had 1M player count, the gamers playing it right now might be only 15,000. If it was a small indie game and there was only 100,000 in the player count leaderboard, the actual number of people playing for your lobbies might only be at 1,000.
So why not use the actual active lobby number rather than one which only correlates and correlates very differently depending on retention of the game?
Nobody in their right mind would use the incorrect cumulative figure except those trying to inflate it as much as possible for no reason.
 

kingfey

Banned
So why not use the actual active lobby number rather than one which only correlates and correlates very differently depending on retention of the game?
Nobody in their right mind would use the incorrect cumulative figure except those trying to inflate it as much as possible for no reason.
Do you think people play the game for 24/7?
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
So why not use the actual active lobby number rather than one which only correlates and correlates very differently depending on retention of the game?
Nobody in their right mind would use the incorrect cumulative figure except those trying to inflate it as much as possible for no reason.
Nobody is looking into that 6M player count with an axe to grind except you who purposely wants to chip down that number as much as possible.

Dont forget to do your same analysis for every other game.
 

Three

Member
Nobody is looking into that 6M player count with an axe to grind except you who purposely wants to chip down that number as much as possible.

Dont forget to do your same analysis for every other game.
You mean games like COD:MWR which as I mentioned is my favourite game ever. of course I'll keep that in mind 😄

Using his methodology, then every game has shitty active user base. Even games like Fortnite only have a small % of players playing at any given minute during the day.

Nobody said any game had a shitty userbase. Only your insecurity.
 
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phil_t98

Gold Member
They are not necessarily owners though. They are unique players on a leaderboard and I said historically you can't equate that to owners. none of the COD leaderboard numbers match the known sales figures either. People share accounts, people have siblings/family, people show games to others, some people even have alts.

so how do you play a game that isn't out except for ultimate edition, not even disc based games out at that point
 

Portugeezer

Member
Why? Because Xbox usually saves games for holidays? It doesn't stop people from wanting to play what PS released earlier throughout the year, and basically the consoles will both sell out anyway so it's all semantics.
 

kingfey

Banned
So why not use the actual active lobby number rather than one which only correlates and correlates very differently depending on retention of the game?
Nobody in their right mind would use the incorrect cumulative figure except those trying to inflate it as much as possible for no reason.
Active lobby =/= player base.

For example, minecraft sold 200+m copies. But you won't see that much people logged in.

Active lobby only serves whether the game is active or not. This is pretty much useless for SP games.

Forza5 is the same. Just because there is 5.5m people, it doesn't mean all those people will log in.

I am at work, I dont play the game. My last session was Monday, after finishing the tutorial. If we use your metric, I won't be in your count.

Hope this clarifies it for you.
 

Snake29

Banned
That's fair. I can see how Forza Horizon isn't for everyone. But those closed circuit racing games - they're niche. The general public does not really care for them anymore. Look at Gran Turismo Sport, Assetto Corsa, etc. Those games definitely have their fans, but they lack general appeal. GTS did get to 9m players, but it took well over a year to reach that level (and that's probably about where it has capped out). FH5 is already over 5m players, within 1-2 days of release. It will blow past GTS in the first month probably.

GT Sport sold full copies, are we really changing to compare sold vs players? The thing is, Horizon might never sell more then GT Sports. The player base can drop since they have not purchased anything. most people have a cheap 1 dollar GP for a month, while others already had GP.

This is starting to become a joke by now.
 

Lognor

Banned
GT Sport sold full copies, are we really changing to compare sold vs players? The thing is, Horizon might never sell more then GT Sports. The player base can drop since they have not purchased anything. most people have a cheap 1 dollar GP for a month, while others already had GP.

This is starting to become a joke by now.
No, Sony claimed 9m PLAYERS, not owners. So don't try to give credit where its not due. GT Sport was a dud. It was $30 or less a month after launch. Don't try to rewrite history and make it into some huge success. It wasn't. It is no Forza Horizon.
 

Snake29

Banned
No, Sony claimed 9m PLAYERS, not owners. So don't try to give credit where its not due. GT Sport was a dud. It was $30 or less a month after launch. Don't try to rewrite history and make it into some huge success. It wasn't. It is no Forza Horizon.

Your still that stupid one around here thats compares GTS with Horizon.

So you admit that Motorsport failed? In 2019, GTS sold 8 million copies, and were now in 2021 and sold already way more then that.

The new narrative since Horizon is "how many players". I can't wait when the player counts drops and you guys start hyping about sales again. The fact suddenly "player count" is so important for you guys says enough about the low sales are for these games.
 
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kingfey

Banned
Your still that stupid one around here thats compares GTS with Horizon.

So you admit that Motorsport failed? In 2019, GTS sold 8 million copies...so nice try!

The new narrative since Horizon is "how many players". I can't wait when the player counts drops and you guys start hyping about sales again. The fact suddenly "player count" is so important for you guys says enough about the low sales are for these games.
Horizon is the popular series.

Motorsport become strict, which made players uneasy with it. That is my understanding of it.

GT is Playstation crown racing. Both serve different audiences.
 
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