Support NeoGAF

[Topher]

Read this.



Also, this isn't just a throwaway game. This engine and game are both quite impressive. And if people made a big fuss over the Touryst (they did), SURELY this game is fair game as it's a lot more impressive and demanding.

Ok.....I get the joke. That's really all that needed to be said. This isn't a throwaway game, but it is not a demanding game either. The fact you made a joke about it kinda makes the point.

If you want to make a point to those who made a "big fuss" over Touryst then that's fine but it is just console war nonsense.

 

[In Cold Blood]

I have a feeling FSR is not going to be this amazing dlss-like solution to resolution in terms of how big the gains will be. How big could it be without dedicated tensor type cores, really?

It's the Temporal upscaling part of DLSS that does the majority of the work. They really arnt that far away from each other.
There are some videos comparing Ghostwire with DLSS, Native and TSR and you would would be surprised how close they are. We haven't seen AMDs FSR 2.0 in action yet, but if it's as good or better than Epics TSR then it's going to be very close. Close enough that alot of people won't be fussed about it.
There will be further improvements on FSR as well as they will improve the algorithms over time.

 

[Topher]

Regardless of what some people may wish to think, tools are a legit thing. Sony have really good tools and they flowed on really well from the PS4 to the PS5. The same amount of Compute Units, for instance.
Microsoft on the other hand had a whole new set of tools and development environment. They were initially using their old dev tools and only recently have games switch over to the new ones.
Microsoft was slower out of the gate than Sony. What this means in the long run, who knows.

Recently? The new dev tools were released to Xbox developers prior to launch. This was covered months ago.

"However, speaking to developers, the development environment they're dealing with...some people seem to be extremely happy with it, other people are having problems with it. Microsoft has moved away from what was previously the XDK, which was specific for Xbox, to the GDK, which is a more general development environment for PC, Xbox Series S/X, and Xbox One.

"The long-term win with the GDK is that you're going to be able to develop for and deploy for all of these different systems. But in the short-term, I have heard some developers having some problems with it, and whether all that is going to manifest in final games is the big question."

-Richard Leadbetter, September 2020

PlayStation 5 is easier to make games for, devs having issues on Xbox

Anonymous developers unanimously praise the PS5's uncomplicated and easy-to-use software tools, APIs, and dev architectures.

www.tweaktown.com

 

[MasterCornholio]

Read this.



Also, this isn't just a throwaway game. This engine and game are both quite impressive. And if people made a big fuss over the Touryst (they did), SURELY this game is fair game as it's a lot more impressive and demanding.

What’s nice about the Touryst is that DF contacted the developers about it so we have an idea on what happened. Unfortunately for this game we don’t know anything yet if I’m not wrong.

 

[adamsapple]

Recently? The new dev tools were released to Xbox developers prior to launch. This was covered months ago.

From the same article;

"The long-term win with the GDK is that you're going to be able to develop for and deploy for all of these different systems. But in the short-term, I have heard some developers having some problems with it, and whether all that is going to manifest in final games is the big question."

This is probably the thing that led to a first year full of "tools" memes. Hopefully this is on the turnaround now.

 

[MasterCornholio]

From the same article;



This is probably the thing that led to a first year full of "tools" memes. Hopefully this is on the turnaround now.

It’s been fixed for a while.

 

[Topher]

From the same article;



This is probably the thing that led to a first year full of "tools" memes. Hopefully this is on the turnaround now.

But this isn't a "turnaround" at all. XSX is performing as expected with this game. Same for XSS. It is the PS5 version that needs fixing. That has nothing to do with dev tools and this isn't some magical leap in performance for Xbox.

 

[MasterCornholio]

But this isn't a "turnaround" at all. XSX is performing as expected with this game. Same for XSS. It is the PS5 version that needs fixing. That has nothing to do with dev tools and this isn't some magical leap in performance for Xbox.

If I’m not wrong even DF found this weird. I would say with this game at least it’s a bit questionable for the PS5.

I’m not expecting it to surpass the XSX or anything but it should be a lot closer. Doubt tools have anything to do with this.

 

[Topher]

If I’m not wrong even DF found this weird. I would say with this game at least it’s a bit questionable for the PS5.

I’m not expecting it to surpass the XSX or anything but it should be a lot closer. Doubt tools have anything to do with this.

Not unless PS5 tools somehow regressed. But yeah, DF said this was strange.

 

[adamsapple]

But this isn't a "turnaround" at all. XSX is performing as expected with this game. Same for XSS. It is the PS5 version that needs fixing. That has nothing to do with dev tools and this isn't some magical leap in performance for Xbox.

Turnaround in the sense that whatever perceived woes developers may have had switching to GDK initially have been ironed out hopefully.

 

[DaGwaphics]

I saw someone mention that sometimes the XSX is pushing 4x the resolution as the PS5. Look I know the XSX can have a resolution advantage but not by that much. No idea what happened here with this title.

Probably developed for DX12 first and ported to PS.

 

[Topher]

Turnaround in the sense that whatever perceived woes developers may have had switching to GDK initially have been ironed out hopefully.

There hasn't been any mention of dev tools as an issue (by media, devs, etc.) since early last year so I doubt it has been an issue for a while.

Probably developed for DX12 first and ported to PS.

Very well could be. Of course, we know they are junking the engine after this game as the development of this game, apparently, wasn't exactly ideal.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

It seems pretty clear that the Xbox won this one. The Sony fans need to Lego and move on.

 

[DaGwaphics]

It seems pretty clear that the Xbox won this one. The Sony fans need to Lego and move on.

Truth.

 

[Topher]

It seems pretty clear that the Xbox won this one.

As strange as it is, that is a fact.

The Sony fans need to Lego and move on.

 

[Truespeed]

So they let the interns do the PS5 port?

 

[Closer]

So they let the interns do the PS5 port?

They probably did the bare minimum as the game would gonna sell the same regardless of performance/resolution.

 

[avin]

It seems pretty clear that the Xbox won this one. The Sony fans need to Lego and move on.

Of course it did. The interesting question is why. If they patch the PS5 performance, that will be one - and perhaps the only - way we get an answer.

avin

 

[MasterCornholio]

There hasn't been any mention of dev tools as an issue (by media, devs, etc.) since early last year so I doubt it has been an issue for a while.



Very well could be. Of course, we know they are junking the engine after this game as the development of this game, apparently, wasn't exactly ideal.

Yeah if the engine was amazing and perfect for next gen I don’t think they would get rid of it.

Edit: I meant current gen consoles of course.

 

[WoodyStare]

The Sony fans need to Lego and move on.

 

[Craig of War]

So Series X wins in Frames, Graphics & Loading time
so i guess you can call it a

 

[ZehDon]

Hopefully the PS5 gets fixed up in a patch; no reason it should be that far behind the XSX.

 

[Truespeed]

 

[RoboFu]

Hopefully the PS5 gets fixed up in a patch; no reason it should be that far behind the XSX.

Or is there?

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Recently? The new dev tools were released to Xbox developers prior to launch. This was covered months ago.

"However, speaking to developers, the development environment they're dealing with...some people seem to be extremely happy with it, other people are having problems with it. Microsoft has moved away from what was previously the XDK, which was specific for Xbox, to the GDK, which is a more general development environment for PC, Xbox Series S/X, and Xbox One.

"The long-term win with the GDK is that you're going to be able to develop for and deploy for all of these different systems. But in the short-term, I have heard some developers having some problems with it, and whether all that is going to manifest in final games is the big question."

-Richard Leadbetter, September 2020

PlayStation 5 is easier to make games for, devs having issues on Xbox

Anonymous developers unanimously praise the PS5's uncomplicated and easy-to-use software tools, APIs, and dev architectures.

www.tweaktown.com

Even so, many games that released even mid to late 2021, started their development on Series X with still premature GDK foundations. Devs just needed to make do with what they started with. Games are a long, long process. Any inefficiencies that were found that couldn't be fixed or corrected by the devs simply had to be lived with and worked around.

Game development transitions often take many, many years before certain improvements, techniques or inefficiency learnings are able to be taken advantage of in later titles. So that information being late 2020 doesn't mean the problems get solved that very first year in 2021. I guarantee there are devs still facing issues that haven't been ironed out or fully fixed on both sides. Not only that, Microsoft waited longer to finalize their hardware to get all the RDNA 2 features with their additional customizations in hardware. That, too, would have presented major challenges to developers.

Just like with any system, as years pass there's a lot that's going to improve. Series X, due to the nature of Microsoft completely changing their development environment, on top of how much later hardware seemingly got to the actual studios, might appear to be improving in more drastic fashion than what might otherwise seem normal to games earlier in the gen. Not due to the console suddenly being stronger, but only due to the level of challenges that were present at the start. I've said from the start that the Series X GPU is a pretty beefy piece of hardware. It's always been a lot more capable than what people thought.

And while this one is on the extreme side, I don't think it's the last time we'll be seeing something like it.

 

[ManaByte]

Even so, many games that released even mid to late 2021, started their development on Series X with still premature GDK foundations. Devs just needed to make do with what they started with. Games are a long, long process. Any inefficiencies that were found that couldn't be fixed or corrected by the devs simply had to be lived with and worked around.

Game development transitions often take many, many years before certain improvements, techniques or inefficiency learnings are able to be taken advantage of in later titles. So that information being late 2020 doesn't mean the problems get solved that very first year in 2021. I guarantee there are devs still facing issues that haven't been ironed out or fully fixed on both sides. Not only that, Microsoft waited longer to finalize their hardware to get all the RDNA 2 features with their additional customizations in hardware. That, too, would have presented major challenges to developers.

Just like with any system, as years pass there's a lot that's going to improve. Series X, due to the nature of Microsoft completely changing their development environment, on top of how much later hardware seemingly got to the actual studios, might appear to be improving in more drastic fashion than what might otherwise seem normal to games earlier in the gen. Not due to the console suddenly being stronger, but only due to the level of challenges that were present at the start. I've said from the start that the Series X GPU is a pretty beefy piece of hardware. It's always been a lot more capable than what people thought.

And while this one is on the extreme side, I don't think it's the last time we'll be seeing something like it.

I’m not sure how many people are aware that the PS5 tools are the same as what devs used on the PS4 while the GDK on the Series consoles was completely new and different from what was used on XBO.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I think they will patch the ps5 version. 2 years into this pandemic and games are still coming in hot and needing 3 to 6 months of optimisation after launch, sometimes more. Just look at all the xbox games that looked like they werent on par and then were patched to be more or less identical at least, control and recently elden Ring etc.

It's obvious developers are having to prioritise a platform and due to sheer popularity the choice is usually playstation, then they usually sharpen up the other platforms later. Just seems like this time they prioritised direct x 12 or something imo.

I'd love some honest information from the dev here.

More importantly, no one has done a proper tech breakdown including the switch version. I want to know how that holds up compared. That would be interesting.

 

[onQ123]

Wonder what happened with this one. Usually the two are very close in comparisons.

Most likely it's just the way the game is designed & it just hit a bottleneck on PS5 don't forget that PS5 has 36CU & the engine might favor a wide design .

 

[sinnergy]

Most likely it's just the way the game is designed & it just hit a bottleneck on PS5 don't forget that PS5 has 36CU & the engine might favor a wide design .

The problem is, it could be indicative for the future as , asynchronous programming and parallel tasks are the future of engines , which like a wide design . And Travelers Tales is known for pushing technology, even if it looks simple in their Lego games . Have a look at what they did in the 16 and 32 bit era. But some , me included, understand this and called this out when both specs from the machines where released years ago.

 

[SplunkyMunkey]

Matrix demo says hello and if that demo can keep up with the series x then this lego game wouldn't have no problem at all

 

[sinnergy]

Not unless PS5 tools somehow regressed. But yeah, DF said this was strange.

I don’t exactly recall what they said but it was something like this: the engine looked pretty modern and the graphics looked very nice.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Matrix demo says hello and if that demo can keep up with the series x then this lego game wouldn't have no problem at all

But, maybe that demo wasn't fully optimised for the series consoles. Like, this game isn't fully optimised for ps5.

The matrix demo was a tech demo, that they could have easily just thought well its more or less identical now just get it out the door. The real proof in the pudding will be when big UE 5 games start releasing on the consoles, but we will probably have pro models then.

And call me conspiracy theorist, but when one company is obviously extremely close and has invested over 1.2 billion dollars in the company making the tech demo I find it hard to believe that one platform isn't prioritised a little over the other.

 

[DarkMage619]

Most likely it's just the way the game is designed & it just hit a bottleneck on PS5 don't forget that PS5 has 36CU & the engine might favor a wide design .

I will never understand why you would go with some sort of hardware definency over a simple issue of lack of optimization. This is a cross generational game. There is no reason the PS5 couldn't run this title better. Just like in the Ghostrunner thread for Xbox neither of these titles are hitting hardware bottlenecks but certainly may hit a developer bottleneck as in them not fully optimizing these titles for the respective platforms.

 

[Negotiator101]

First game I have seen that has tearing on PS5 and not on Series consoles. Runs worse and has a lower average res, what a shit port.

Series X is more powerful regardless, I'd say the PS5 version would be more important in terms of development time than Xbox as it would sell more.

 

[Caio]

Is VRS implemented in the Series consoles ?

 

[Darsxx82]

Yeah if the engine was amazing and perfect for next gen I don’t think they would get rid of it.

Edit: I meant current gen consoles of course.

The engine can be good and up to the NextGen (current gen) and, at the same time, it is preferable for them to move to UE5 because it is more profitable and easier for them to access new technologies and optimizations. One thing and another are not incompatible and in fact it is something that (sadly for me) is being seen a lot and how Studios, with their own graphics engine, abandon and are giving way to UE5 (the most notorious CDPR).

For the rest, it is clear that the differences seen in Lego are not definitory in terms of hardware and power, it is clearly a software issue. And it makes clear the important impact of being or not a base development platform to obtain a polished version. And I don't think anyone disputes which is more often the priority version among the Studios for logical reasons too.

Perhaps a patch for PS5 will be seen, of the type that XS usually receives post-launch and that revealed a lack of optimization time or less priority. Resulting in the end versions on par or one even better in XSX. It is not a short list, far from it and always close patches after the launch. Perhaps in this LEGO the same situation occurs but changing the tables.

 

[Riky]

I remember someone saying way back, can't remember who but they thought that on some occasions Series X would be out of sight whilst Series S would be pushing hard.
Nice to see Series S producing great results when the effort is put in.

 

[onQ123]

The problem is, it could be indicative for the future as , asynchronous programming and parallel tasks are the future of engines , which like a wide design . And Travelers Tales is known for pushing technology, even if it looks simple in their Lego games . Have a look at what they did in the 16 and 32 bit era. But some , me included, understand this and called this out when both specs from the machines where released years ago.

Not really Devs will always go with whatever they feel is best for their game PS4 had a big advantage when it came to async compute but most devs just went with what could run across most platforms with less work.

 

[onQ123]

I will never understand why you would go with some sort of hardware definency over a simple issue of lack of optimization. This is a cross generational game. There is no reason the PS5 couldn't run this title better. Just like in the Ghostrunner thread for Xbox neither of these titles are hitting hardware bottlenecks but certainly may hit a developer bottleneck as in them not fully optimizing these titles for the respective platforms.

It's the same thing , Sure they could & probably will go back & work around the limitations of the hardware & fix the software so that it's not bottlenecked anymore but for now the way the game is designed it's hitting a limit on PS5 that it's not hitting on Xbox Series X

 

[01011001]

Series X is more powerful regardless, I'd say the PS5 version would be more important in terms of development time than Xbox as it would sell more.

either they had really good foresight or this is just a random trend, but apparently this game actually sells more copies on Xbox than on PlayStation, which is weird to be honest...

apparently its 41% Xbox, 34% PlayStation

 

[RoadHazard]

I don't care when one platform has the typical ~10% resolution advantage over the other, but this is looking like "shit port" territory, and something I don't want to reward with my money.

 

[Kagey K]

either they had really good foresight or this is just a random trend, but apparently this game actually sells more copies on Xbox than on PlayStation, which is weird to be honest...

apparently its 41% Xbox, 34% PlayStation

They have made enough games to know thier audience by now across multiple systems...

 

[DenchDeckard]

either they had really good foresight or this is just a random trend, but apparently this game actually sells more copies on Xbox than on PlayStation, which is weird to be honest...

apparently its 41% Xbox, 34% PlayStation

Is this true? I find it hard to believe. That's pretty crazy if it is right. In the UK it swayed playstation didn't it?

 

[01011001]

They have made enough games to know thier audience by now across multiple systems...

maybe but stuff like that is always hard to judge when a new generation comes around

 

[Kagey K]

maybe but stuff like that is always hard to judge when a new generation comes around

They went from ps3/360 to ps4/xbox one to current Gen.

They have seen the ups and downs from both sides.

Either way it looks like it will be neck and neck by the end of this year, so it's really hard to choose wrong.

Only ones that are going to lose are the ones that bit hard on last Gen results.

 

[01011001]

Is this true? I find it hard to believe. That's pretty crazy if it is right. In the UK it swayed playstation didn't it?

these numbers are internationally I think, and also the uk charts are retail only, and the game sold more digital copies than retail too... so these UK sales numbers are usually completely irrelevant either way as they only show us 1 country and only retail, which is increasingly less relevant

 

[Allandor]

When will fanboy warriors finally see the simple answer to all this?

Such discrepancies are just there because the game was running good enough so nothing had to be fixed for the release.
Software/game development is just full of compromises. A developer will only look into a problem if it is necessary to be fixed. Everything else is not at his/her agenda.
So if the game would be unplayable due to the not optimal code it gets fixed (hopefully). If the game runs well enough it is at most "nice to have" bug with minimal priority.
So DRS saves the day here so there is probably nothing that must necessary be fixed.

 

[Ogbert]

Really fun game but performance is noticeably poor on the PS5.

Feels like a boosted PS4 game.

 

[01011001]

When will fanboy warriors finally see the simple answer to all this?

Such discrepancies are just there because the game was running good enough so nothing had to be fixed for the release.
Software/game development is just full of compromises. A developer will only look into a problem if it is necessary to be fixed. Everything else is not at his/her agenda.
So if the game would be unplayable due to the not optimal code it gets fixed (hopefully). If the game runs well enough it is at most "nice to have" bug with minimal priority.
So DRS saves the day here so there is probably nothing that must necessary be fixed.

this is very true, just remember the anecdote from the Digital Foundry team that got first hand confirmation that often times stuff like missing ambient occlusion or bad texture filtering in some versions often are just oversights where the devs forgot to adjust settings.
who can forget some of the One X versions last gen that ran Xbox One S settings and therefore had lower settings than PS4 pro because all the devs did was use the same settings as base consoles and only increase the resolution... and due to the base PS4 using higher settings than base Xbox One, the same was true on Pro and One X

so shit like that happens all the time with ports.

the Xbox versions of Elden Ring run worse than the PS versions most likely due to a certain setting that is turned on on Xbox but not PS that dynamically adjusts settings based on GPU load, and that setting is exhibiting extremely weird behaviour to say the least, as seen in tests running One X code on Series X

 

[Black_Stride]

Ok.....I get the joke. That's really all that needed to be said. This isn't a throwaway game, but it is not a demanding game either. The fact you made a joke about it kinda makes the point.

If you want to make a point to those who made a "big fuss" over Touryst then that's fine but it is just console war nonsense.

At 4K60?
Even a 3060ti will drop below 60 at 4K in this game....remember almost all benchmarks are meant to find the lowest points, and find the most demanding sections of this game and a 3060ti wont hold 60, obviously the light sections youll jump into the 100s which why the resdrops on console are probably so stark, this game goes from being a walk in the park for hardware to really stressing it in other moments.
Why you assume its NOT demanding?

Probably developed for DX12 first and ported to PS.

Its not DX12 on PC so its unlikely they developed the game with DX12 in mind.
Both the Xbox and PS versions are ports.
If they started in DX12 the PC version would likely be DX12 too....or atleast have a DX12 exe.