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[Ghost of Caelid]

Playing a plagues tale is making me realize how stagnant the third person genre is. It’s at the point where the gameplay conventions have become very very stale.

See ledge, see cart.

See painted platform.

See Lock with white flag on it.

And many many more of these over used mechanics.

But how can developers improve the genre beyond just better graphics. A game like TLOU3, hellblade 2, and other AAA third person cinematic games, where can they go from a gameplay standpoint beyond just “better graphics” because from an innovation standpoint the genre hasn’t really taken steps forward since the PS3 360 era.

 

[feynoob]

Good boss fights.
I hated spiderman boss fights. It was generic as F. It felt like there was no stake on the line.

God of war troll boss gave me a hard time, compared to spiderman bosses.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Get rid of walkie-talkie sections.

Add actual gameplay mechanics that might go beyond the "cover and shoot" or the "hide in tall grass". So tired of those things. Edit: Uncharted 4's grapple hook was imho a step in the right direction.

Imagine a high budget cinematic game that plays like Vanquish. That'd be cool.

 

[AV]

Better AI. TLOU2, for all the problems I had with it, was a step in that direction. They also had the whole "oh no they killed Sarah!" naming of NPCs was such an obvious, incredibly simple yet neat trick that I can't believe it's not more widely used. Basically, more organic feeling experiences.

 

[GymWolf]

Good boss fights.
I hated spiderman boss fights. It was generic as F. It felt like there was no stake on the line.

God of war troll boss gave me a hard time, compared to spiderman bosses.

That's the problem of that fucking free flow combat system, it is decent with groups, absolutely dreadfull with single boss.

If we are lucky devs are gonna stop using this trash in future games but i don't have much hope, it is jist simple to copy that and give your small spin.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

Better AI. TLOU2, for all the problems I had with it, was a step in that direction. They also had the whole "oh no they killed Sarah!" naming of NPCs was such an obvious, incredibly simple yet neat trick that I can't believe it's not more widely used. Basically, more organic feeling experiences.

TLOU2 to me was the peak of these conventions so everything since feels like a step back. Which imo means there’s a need for evolution. I’m not creative enough to give ideas tho.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

That's the problem of that fucking free flow combat system, it is decent with groups, absolutely dreadfull with single boss.

If we are lucky devs are gonna stop using this trash in future games but i don't have much hope, it is jist simple to copy that and give your small spin.

The other option is souls combat which creates probably the most organic bad ass moments but it’s also over used at this point. We now have Batman or souls for Wester action games. Not really much other than in melee combat.

 

[AV]

TLOU2 to me was the peak of these conventions so everything since feels like a step back. Which imo means there’s a need for evolution. I’m not creative enough to give ideas tho.

I'm sure Naughty Dog and Rockstar will be the ones to drive this stuff forward, as usual. RDR2 did stuff I can't even really put into words that made me feel more immersed. I think it was the way that the camp felt so - again, that word - organic, you'd go back at different times and different stuff would be happening, you start missions just by walking up to people having a conversation, no giant swirly glow to stand in. You could miss tons of little interactions so different players got slightly different experiences.

All that stuff is a level of detail most developers will never reach, even though Rockstar have already laid the blueprint.

 

[ProgenitorCastle]

Vanquish is the answer

 

[The_Mike]

Story?

Isn't it primarily what drives a movie?

 

[Umbasaborne]

Id say, dont make mechanics out of things that dont need to be mechanics. Pushing a dumpster against a wall so that joel can climb it is not engaging, that can be a cut scene for all i care

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

Story?

Isn't it primarily what drives a movie?

We’re talking about video games not movies.

 

[Aion002]

Multiple paths.

"Cinematic games" are too linear both in exploration and story, the player should always have 3 or 5 different paths to explore and progress in the game. Also, depending on the "paths" taken, the story should change accordingly.

Same thing on the combat, if the player is a bloodthirsty killer or a pacifist, the interaction with npcs and how the story advances should change according to the player actions.

 

[GymWolf]

Better AI. TLOU2, for all the problems I had with it, was a step in that direction. They also had the whole "oh no they killed Sarah!" naming of NPCs was such an obvious, incredibly simple yet neat trick that I can't believe it's not more widely used. Basically, more organic feeling experiences.

Tlou2 is 90% smoke and mirrors on top of still mostly retarded and suicidal enemies with zero situational awereness, 2 runs on grounded and over 45 hours with the game proved me that.

To put it simply, enemies look and sound way more human and smart than they really are, like you say it is a trick, they still fall for every gamer trick in the book and still can't understand to not enter a room with 20 of their buddies dead on the floor.

(And i love tlou2)

Now if you say that all realistic games should have these smoke and mirrors because it improve immersion then yeah.

But shitty IA is really not a problem of cinematic games only, all IA are retarderd and devs always have the same shitty excuse for it.

 

[The_Mike]

We’re talking about video games not movies.

I'm aware of that.

But isn't playing a "cinematic" (which is movie) because of the story?

 

[AV]

Tlou2 is 90% smoke and mirrors on top of still mostly retarded and suicidal enemies with zero situational awereness, 2 runs on grounded and over 45 hours with the game proved me that.

To put it simply, enemies look and sound way more human and smart than they really are, like you say it is a trick, they still fall for every gamer trick in the book and still can't understand to not enter a room with 20 of their buddies dead on the floor.

(And i love tlou2)

Yeah of course, RDR2's magic is the same deal - they've not invented some crazy AI, they've just masked what's happening in such a way that the player believes there's more happening than really is. As soon as you start playing it like a video game (like playing on Grounded where you actually have to try to win), the cracks begin to show. RDR2 made me behave like the character would rather than a video game protagonist, without me really even realising - while I was playing through the story. Soon as I started going after 100% checklists, all that fell apart and I felt like I was an avatar of myself again, not Arthur Morgan. Still very impressive.

 

[TheDraconian]

New game mechanics,
Deeper AI,
Complex physics,
Immersive game worlds, and
Characters with depth and compelling stories.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

It's easy, really:

1. Make them first person
2. Remove cinematic aspect

 

[Beer Baelly]

By adding more sex scenes.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Stop making solutions so linear. Seems like there’s one way to beat an enemy or to progress through a game. I would like to have several tools at my disposal, and let me go with what I feel like using. Let me use the environment as a weapon if possible. Give me branching paths as well.

 

[SlimySnake]

Playing a plagues tale is making me realize how stagnant the third person genre is. It’s at the point where the gameplay conventions have become very very stale.

See ledge, see cart.

See painted platform.

See Lock with white flag on it.

And many many more of these over used mechanics.

But how can developers improve the genre beyond just better graphics. A game like TLOU3, hellblade 2, and other AAA third person cinematic games, where can they go from a gameplay standpoint beyond just “better graphics” because from an innovation standpoint the genre hasn’t really taken steps forward since the PS3 360 era.

Thats because Plagues Tale fucking sucks compared to other BETTER third person games. Go look at what Death Stranding, RDR2, GOW, Witcher 3, TLOU2, MGSV and Arkham Knight were doing. Plague's tale is basically an early era 3rd person stealth game with fancy graphics. Its an indie game at best.

That said, games in general could use more innovation and more interactivity. I think having physics like in Half Life Alyx would really help sell the interactive element in games. David Cage gets a lot of shit, but I remember how awesome it felt to be in a fight and use lamps, desks, chairs and other objects in a fight even if it was a QTE.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Stop making solutions so linear. Seems like there’s one way to beat an enemy or to progress through a game. I would like to have several tools at my disposal, and let me go with what I feel like using. Give me branching paths as well.

Soooooooo... make it a Deu Sex game?

 

[SmokedMeat]

Soooooooo... make it a Deu Sex game?

We can use a little more Deus EX style openness in our games.

Like I’m playing a game and a trinket I need is pad locked in a wooden crate. I’m not allowed to open it until I have a key, despite holding a shotgun. Makes no sense.

 

[Wildebeest]

Main differences between cinema and cinematic games.

Very little sneaking in cinema, but if so, the person is hiding from some monster or eavesdropping on some conversation or something.
Much less repetitive violence in cinema.
Dialogue is far less flabby and drives things forwards.
There is much more sex and flirting in cinema.

Importantly, not all is shown in cinema in real time. The action is edited. If two character have sex, it may not be shown at all, but there may instead be coded language from one scene to the next that they had sex. This is part of the aspect of being cinematic, where the space between the frames is filled with your imagination.

 

[AV]

We can use a little more Deus EX style openness in our games.

Like I’m playing a game and a trinket I need is pad locked in a wooden crate. I’m not allowed to open it until I have a key, despite holding a shotgun. Makes no sense.

More creative ways to gate a player when necessary would be nice. Stuff like this was okay when games felt like video games, but games that are trying to be super realistic, and then you can't just kick fragile wooden doors in.... bad.

 

[brian0057]

That they stop making them.

 

[GymWolf]

YThe other option is souls combat which creates probably the most organic bad ass moments but it’s also over used at this point. We now have Batman or souls for Wester action games. Not really much other than in melee combat.

I think that a spin on souls combat or just combat with manual lock offer way more freedom of approach over a spin on free flow tbh.

Free flow mechanics are just so basic.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

We can use a little more Deus EX style openness in our games.

Like I’m playing a game and a trinket I need is pad locked in a wooden crate. I’m not allowed to open it until I have a key, despite holding a shotgun. Makes no sense.

Yes, why I have to crawl under a space when a chest level wall I can hop over is right there. I think instead of embracing more openness and options in linear games developers stick to conventions they learn in school.

 

[SmokedMeat]

I also hate when every single enemy targets me, only.

For example I’m playing a game with zombies. While battling a bunch of armed human enemies I run past some lumbering zombies, in hopes that the zombies start attacking the humans and hopefully eliminate them for me.

Instead it’s like a Benny Hill chase scene, with everyone going after me only. I love when there’s dynamic interaction between different enemies.

We can shit on Ubi Soft all day, but when I ran into a city while being chased by lions, chaos ensued and it was awesome to see. That was AC Odyssey by the way.

 

[ProtoByte]

There's not all that much further to go. The reality is that gaming is maturing as a medium. There are only so many things that can be done before the differentiators start becoming soft things: "How does x aspect of this game come across to the player" instead of "How does x aspect work".

So AI is a big one. Fighting against "realistic" in some games just isn't going to be possible without blockading the player. So, as some people refer to TLOU2's AI systems, while we can make marginal gains and little tweaks to actually inch towards something similar to reality, the real important thing is how it's presented to the player. This is where design is really important. Say what you want about TLOU2, but in terms of gameplay, it's immaculately designed.

This gen, from very select studios, eventually, we'll see things like more destruction, higher enemy counts and some level of better physics, and those will be great. That stuff isn't "new" or "innovative" though. For narrative cinematic games, I think those terms are way overrated. Gaming isn't a new medium anymore, and honestly, that applies to practically all genres.

 

[kiphalfton]

Games have become too dumbed down.

 

[rodrigolfp]

What makes a game "cinematic"?

 

[Punished Miku]

Fixed camera angles with improved gameplay. That's 99% of what actually makes something cinematic.

 

[Represent.]

Devs need to play TLOU 2 and say, “we’re nit shipping until we top this”.

• Smarter AI.
• More vertical gameplay. More options during combat.
• More enemy variety
• No more tall grass sections. Find another mechanic (don’t have to eliminate it completely, add to it)
• Ragdoll physics
• Destructible environments
• Story narratives that aren’t so straightforward and linear. Show things from different perspectives (aka tlou2). Not every game needs a “bad guy”
• Make weather systems affect gameplay.
• Put more emphasis on combat feeling visceral and intense

 

[MidGenRefresh]

What makes a game "cinematic"?

Game is cinematic when it's barely interactive.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Improve their stories should be number one priority.

We shouldn't have to compromise cause it's a video game.

 

[TheGodfather07]

Better ai and more interactivity with the game world. Make the characters even more life like with good acting. It adds so much to the story when you get invested into the characters because they are so well done. Look at joel. We had people losing their shit over him like he was a real person.

 

[GymWolf]

Devs need to play TLOU 2 and say, “we’re nit shipping until we top this”.

• Smarter AI.
• More vertical gameplay. More options during combat.
• More enemy variety
• No more tall grass sections. Find another mechanic (don’t have to eliminate it completely, add to it)
• Ragdoll physics
• Destructible environments
• Story narratives that aren’t so straightforward and linear. Show things from different perspectives (aka tlou2). Not every game needs a “bad guy”
• Make weather systems affect gameplay.
• Put more emphasis on combat feeling visceral and intense

You say ragdoll as something to improve like tlou 2 didn't had top tier ragdoll...

Unless that list is for the stronger points of tlou2 but that would disqualify enemy variety and destruction tbh.

 

[samoilaaa]

the thing is that most 3rd person games , especially the cinematic ones like the last of us , a plague tale , the order , gears of war , can only improve on graphics and story , lets take

New game mechanics,
Deeper AI,
Complex physics,
Immersive game worlds, and
Characters with depth and compelling stories.

its easy to say new game mechanics but trying to actually find new fun game mechanics is very hard , try it for yourself , try to think of some new game mechanics that it would be really fun , i tried it and after 1 hour i just couldnt think of something new to implement in a video game that hasnt been implemented already

 

[samoilaaa]

Devs need to play TLOU 2 and say, “we’re nit shipping until we top this”.

• Smarter AI.
• More vertical gameplay. More options during combat.
• More enemy variety
• No more tall grass sections. Find another mechanic (don’t have to eliminate it completely, add to it)
• Ragdoll physics
• Destructible environments
• Story narratives that aren’t so straightforward and linear. Show things from different perspectives (aka tlou2). Not every game needs a “bad guy”
• Make weather systems affect gameplay.
• Put more emphasis on combat feeling visceral and intense

if all video games had story narratives like the last of us 2 i would quit gaming , thankfully thats not the case

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

Fixed camera angles with improved gameplay. That's 99% of what actually makes something cinematic.

I would say the emphasis on cinematic elements like camera angles, specific direction, specific lens recreations, and following the usual 3 act structure.

 

[Punished Miku]

I would say the emphasis on cinematic elements like camera angles, specific direction, specific lens recreations, and following the usual 3 act structure.

Ninja Theory had that recent video they just put out showing how they're making their own custom visual settings to virtually mimic classic camera lenses. Pretty interesting.

 

[geary]

The only studio who pushed mechanics forward is Monolith with GOAP AI in FEAR and Nemesis system in Shadow of Mordor.

 

[Ivan]

I'd really like each game to feel completely different.

Something like Shiny's MDK in '97 or even Messiah in 2000. Third person games with completely fresh perspective and tone.

I expect a lot of advancement in animation, some technology that would give us much richer movement, but still feel responsive. I remember some prototypes where you had simplified "skeleton" underneath which is very responsive and stuff on the outside can look nicer but lag a bit visually. But you feel what's underneath.

I'd love too see more third person games like (flawed) Fade to Black from the early days,but done right. Tonally completely different to most tps games of today.

They don't need to invent new game mechanics, but they should have their own approach to make it feel unique. Just basic movement/running around can make a completely different game. You know so many examples where every second is enjoyable because it is right, and others whee it is just painful.

And I'd love to see third person games with more meaningful shooting for a change, something close to one hit/one kill,but with great animation and ragdoll physics.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Physics, physics, physics.

More per object based physics in the game world during gameplay.

 

[Ivan]

Physics, physics, physics.

More per object based physics in the game world during gameplay.

Always, but sometimes I wonder if the controller itself (and it is basically a standard for tps games today) limits the gameplay in that segment.

It is much easier to "play with something", throw things etc with a mouse, it somehow always feel clunky on a controller.

And on the other hand, m/k will never be home for tps development again, I think.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Always, but sometimes I wonder if the controller itself (and it is basically a standard for tps games today) limits the gameplay in that segment.

It is much easier to "play with something", throw things etc with a mouse, it somehow always feel clunky on a controller.

And on the other hand, m/k will never be home for tps development again, I think.

You don't have to pick things up. Just when action gets going, have full on immersion with physics.

And it all comes down to preference. People adapt.

 

[reksveks]

Physics, physics, physics.

More per object based physics in the game world during gameplay.

What do you mean by per object physics? An example please?

 

[reksveks]

I think we have an issue between 'enjoyablity' and 'innovation'.

For some games, I think we need to have more truly complex systems when it comes to physics and ai, both in terms of deep and breadth. The issue is that it will make games hard for users to understand what's going on immediately (those things could be resolved) but it could and probably should lead to 'bad if not realistic' experiences and endings.

I don't know if those kind of systems could be applied to these games.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Tons of shit.

1. Physics base world/materials/interactions= not even for the tradition way of "puzzles" but to achieve more nuance way yo tackle obstacles.

2. More integration with procedural systems. A "smart camera system" that communicates important shit for example.
Not relying on shiny/blinky shit.

3. Refinement/nunace in A.I.