Support NeoGAF

[DeepEnigma]

What do you mean by per object physics? An example please?

Where every object that is sitting on the shelf has its own physics parameters. A bowling ball will be heavier than a soccer ball, etc.. So they react and bounce around the world in a realistic fashion. Sand bags get shot, sand pours out and they lower and flatten.

Naughty Dog was doing this with Uncharted 4 and focused on that for one of the upgrades to their engine, as well as adding them even more into TLoU1 Remake... bodes well hopefully as a more aggressive focus in their next game, now that there are competent CPUs and GPGPU grunt to utilize in current gen.

Makes the world feel more believable and "lived in" when you can find familiarities to the real world. Also would make the gameplay action scenes more alive like the movies (cinematic) when things gets crazy.

 

[daveonezero]

I think they should stop being or trying to be cinematic.

They need to try and add good gameplay systems that enhance the story telling.

 

[reksveks]

Where every object that is sitting on the shelf has its own physics parameters. A bowling ball will be heavier than a soccer ball, etc.. So they react and bounce around the world in a realistic fashion. Sand bags get shot, sand pours out and they lower and flatten.

To me, that kinda is iterative until they start impacting the world in meaningful and multiple ways and then the question is what if any are the limits.

 

[Zekra Dezivad]

Playing a plagues tale is making me realize how stagnant the third person genre is. It’s at the point where the gameplay conventions have become very very stale.

See ledge, see cart.

See painted platform.

See Lock with white flag on it.

And many many more of these over used mechanics.

But how can developers improve the genre beyond just better graphics. A game like TLOU3, hellblade 2, and other AAA third person cinematic games, where can they go from a gameplay standpoint beyond just “better graphics” because from an innovation standpoint the genre hasn’t really taken steps forward since the PS3 360 era.

It evolved a lot since PS3 era, just look how different are Uncharted 1 and The Last of Us 2 in terms of game design. Carts are gimmicks.
A lot of 3rd person games went full open world, some open map, other implemented RPG elements. Third person isn't a genre after all.
Assassin's Creed isn't the same game of the Ezio Saga.
Saying that we have not see any step forward in the last two generation is unfair. They totally have to improve since we are going through a new gen, but a lot of works was done. Just not every game have the ambition of pushing things forward. Plague Tale is pretty much a The Last of Us study as a series right now

 

[Bartski]

Just more detailed micro and macro level simulation of materials, elements and physics for systemic, emergent events in gameplay. A reactive world that allows more freedom and creativity that doesn't break the presentation.

 

[samoilaaa]

I think they should stop being or trying to be cinematic.

They need to try and add good gameplay systems that enhance the story telling.

exactly , you can tell a story through gameplay not just cinematics , some devs have been doing this for years

 

[Ivan]

I wonder why we treat fps and tps differently in this regard... (I do too).

Wouldn't it be the same thing for both genres even if the perspective is a bit different? Physics, AI and everything else would work the same way only character animation and some camera stuff could be different.

I feel like third person games are always on the "lighter" side, we don't have, say - immersive sims in third person. Why is that? First person does sound more immersive, but I think presuming a third person game have to be "less serious" is a huge mistake.

We have exceptions, of course, but I still feel that way.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

It evolved a lot since PS3 era, just look how different are Uncharted 1 and The Last of Us 2 in terms of game design. Carts are gimmicks.
A lot of 3rd person games went full open world, some open map, other implemented RPG elements. Third person isn't a genre after all.
Assassin's Creed isn't the same game of the Ezio Saga.
Saying that we have not see any step forward in the last two generation is unfair. They totally have to improve since we are going through a new gen, but a lot of works was done. Just not every game have the ambition of pushing things forward. Plague Tale is pretty much a The Last of Us study as a series right now

I wouldn’t call assassins creed a cinematic game personally. Maybe I’m wrong. But I think tlou2 isn’t a massively evolved game from TLOU or uncharted. Same gameplay conventions just different paces and focuses.

 

[March Climber]

Ghost of Caelid alright, which AAA game was it? Which game did you play that made you feel this way recently for two different threads? It really sounds like you want a specific game or series to evolve more than others, but don't want to outright name it.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

Ghost of Caelid alright, which AAA game was it? Which game did you play that made you feel this way recently for two different threads? It really sounds like you want a specific game or series to evolve more than others, but don't want to outright name it.

Plagues. It does all the conventions. Im enjoying it but in the same way you have the cal arts animation style that so prevelant this game is kind of a “course in game design” when it comes to all the conventions. A lot of filler. Cause it’s kind of like “get back to the rats please” but before that sneak pass these guards in tall grass and get to cart to hop over painted ledge. Just a reminder of where this genre is at currently.

 

[64bitmodels]

be less cinematic. I want a collectathon third person hack and slash with production values as high as TLOU2.

 

[March Climber]

Plagues. It does all the conventions. Im enjoying it but in the same way you have the cal arts animation style that so prevelant this game is kind of a “course in game design” when it comes to all the conventions. A lot of filler. Cause it’s kind of like “get back to the rats please” but before that sneak pass these guards in tall grass and get to cart to hop over painted ledge. Just a reminder of where this genre is at currently.

That answer definitely surprised me but then again I have never played the Plague Tale games. How strict are the fail conditions if you don't adhere to what they're asking of you?

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

That answer definitely surprised me but then again I have never played the Plague Tale games. How strict are the fail conditions if you don't adhere to what they're asking of you?

Pretty strict. not much room for experimentation in the game. You get the standard light armor enemies and heavy enemies. Also since the sling is loud it pushes you towards sneaking exclusively. The rat gameplay is pretty unique. That’s when you can get more creative. This game is deff lighter on them (so far) than the first.

 

[Negotiator101]

Tlou2 is 90% smoke and mirrors on top of still mostly retarded and suicidal enemies with zero situational awereness, 2 runs on grounded and over 45 hours with the game proved me that.

To put it simply, enemies look and sound way more human and smart than they really are, like you say it is a trick, they still fall for every gamer trick in the book and still can't understand to not enter a room with 20 of their buddies dead on the floor.

(And i love tlou2)

Now if you say that all realistic games should have these smoke and mirrors because it improve immersion then yeah.

But shitty IA is really not a problem of cinematic games only, all IA are retarderd and devs always have the same shitty excuse for it.

So what is good AI exactly? Surely good AI is challenging while being vulnerable to how the player adapts? If you think good AI is killing the player easily, then that's not hard to do, but that's not fun is it?

It boils down to one thing and that's how many actions can the AI perform? How well it performs each action while being susceptible to the player IMO.

 

[Hendrick's]

Make them movies instead and put the effort into games that focus on gameplay.

 

[Jaybe]

Add the ability for player created levels and scenes like Super Mario Maker or Forge.
Something, anything to spice this genre up a bit.

 

[Topher]

Make them movies instead and put the effort into games that focus on gameplay.

 

[EverydayBeast]

MGS5 a game from 2016 set the third person genre standard.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

MGS5 a game from 2016 set the third person genre standard.

From a gameplay stand point it was damn near perfect. Funny enough death stranding was the first to make the AAA action adventure feel unique.

 

[SSfox]

Better AI. TLOU2, for all the problems I had with it, was a step in that direction. They also had the whole "oh no they killed Sarah!" naming of NPCs was such an obvious, incredibly simple yet neat trick that I can't believe it's not more widely used. Basically, more organic feeling experiences.

It will happen when devs will stop designing their games around a 2013 Jaguar CPU.

 

[GymWolf]

So what is good AI exactly? Surely good AI is challenging while being vulnerable to how the player adapts? If you think good AI is killing the player easily, then that's not hard to do, but that's not fun is it?

It boils down to one thing and that's how many actions can the AI perform? How well it performs each action while being susceptible to the player IMO.

Of course you need a balance between too smarts and mongoloids, but as of right now, they are 99% mongoloids and 1% smart, no matter how many smoke and mirrors you create to give a perception of smartness.
Some people get tricked, some people don't.

So devs saying that they can't do better than this because it would be too frustrating is a bunch of bullshit, you have difficulty modes, you can put the smartest ia ever on grounded if you are scared that gamers are not gonna like an ia that is too smart, and even on grounded you can still change the enemy aggressivity, so literally no reason to not do that.

Let suffer the people who search a realistic challenge instead of dumbing down everything for everyone.

 

[SSfox]

MGS5 a game from 2016 set the third person genre standard.

2015*

And yet still the best AI in PS4/One gen.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Multiple paths.

"Cinematic games" are too linear both in exploration and story, the player should always have 3 or 5 different paths to explore and progress in the game. Also, depending on the "paths" taken, the story should change accordingly.

Same thing on the combat, if the player is a bloodthirsty killer or a pacifist, the interaction with npcs and how the story advances should change according to the player actions.

Sounds amazing but it would probably be too expensive for most studios

 

[TGO]

It's easy, really:

1. Make them first person
2. Remove cinematic aspect

OP said advance not degraded

 

[Hobbygaming]

I think it's a lot easier for 3rd person games to differentiate themselves over something like a FPS

You're so much more limited in a FPS when it comes to combat/animations

 

[MidGenRefresh]

OP said advance not degraded

It's only degraded if you're using sticks like a Neanderthal with field of view that of a horse with eye blinkers.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

Sounds amazing but it would probably be too expensive for most studios

Probably have to tone down scope in other areas but not impossible. If the witCher 3 can be made + it’s dlc I think they a company like naughty dog could make a liner game with branching paths. Tho that doesn’t solve the issue of gameplay mechanics.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

It's only degraded if you're using sticks like a Neanderthal with field of view that of a horse with eye blinkers.

It is much more realistic to be able to spin yourself around at the equivalent of 10g's of force and have a fov so high you can see your own asshole looking forward.

Probably have to tone down scope in other areas but not impossible. If the witCher 3 can be made + it’s dlc I think they a company like naughty dog could make a liner game with branching paths. Tho that doesn’t solve the issue of gameplay mechanics.

I think the biggest problem with branching paths is that devs have enough trouble writing a single story that is worth a damn, and now you want them to write multiple permutations with different endings and expect them all to be good? It sounds nice in theory but I just question the feasibility of actually having any good results.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

It is much more realistic to be able to spin yourself around at the equivalent of 10g's of force and have a fov so high you can see your own asshole looking forward.

You can limit both to your likings, genius.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Graphics are (almost) the whole point of these games. People wouldn’t like these games so much if they weren’t pushing the best possible graphics, and they‘ll easily accept limited gameplay and completely scripted development as long as everything looks wow.
I’ll conflate sound with graphics here since they’re in the same ballpark. Uncompressed surround audio, “movie”-like music, and the best VA money can buy go hand-in-hand with the graphics.

There’s many ways gameplay could get more interesting, but the problem with the movie-game genre is that too much player agency limits the cinematic aspects. You want most scenes to be framed in a certain way, you want the main character to enter the scene from a certain direction and in a certain way to introduce the next setpiece. This leads to the necessity of obvious paths that provide very limited interactivity. The best (and/or richest) devs have found cleverer ways to funnel your progression than the waist-high walls and indestructible cardboard doors of a couple of generations ago, but it’s pretty clear that totally interactive environments would hinder the best possible realization of the setpieces and possibly of crucial parts of the story. And the story, like it or not, IS the main point of the cinematic game genre.

People still deplore that notorious trope of “I trashed the boss during the fight and he/she/it still kicked my ass in the ensuing cutscene”. The biggest western games have solved this by framing the story in such a way that you cannot really win the in-game battle, but that’s just a way to sweep the problem under the carpet. The story still has to go in a certain way, and this means that your degree of interactivity must be limited.

 

[hinch7]

Different ways to play and advance through levels. Viable melee and ranged builds, more tanky or more agile. Stealth build or loud CQC combat, I want more choice. Not just what the level designers and game devs force me to play.

Physics and destruction playing a bigger role in fights. Explosives and explosions change the battlefield/fight. Objects have different hardness levels and and be destroyed and damaged and even penetrated with bullets/arrows depending on what material you are hitting/shooting. Picking up objects and able to move them. Use them to your advantage. Block doors, throw at enemies make traps etc.

Better AI. And more unique behaviour, characters behave more like humans.. like the TLOU 2 where people mention names. Anger, sadness, dispair, happiniess in different situttions and behave and act differently and accordingly. Not so that it makes affects gameplay too much with more erratic behavior but better then hive swarming bots we get with most games.

 

[64bitmodels]

You're so much more limited in a FPS when it comes to combat/animations

true but in a TPS you're a lot more limited when it comes to movement and gun variety

 

[a multicultural team of v]

You can limit both to your likings, genius.

And you can't change controller sensitivity? Definitely screwed for fov though, but honestly I think poor fov is worse for third person games than first person. I think that might just be because third person likely means more melee combat, and a low fov makes close spatial awareness extremely difficult. If every encounter is at range it isn't as bad.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

And you can't change controller sensitivity?

You can but good luck aiming at higher sensitivity.

Definitely screwed for fov though, but honestly I think poor fov is worse for third person games than first person.

You "think", heh.

 

[aygomyownroad]

Danger and penalties.

Tomb Raider on PS is a prime example.

You had to run and jump to ledges with no clear indication which ledge you need to go to. You fall and die? Well back to the start of the level.

Now it’s all marked or worse yet invisible walls to stop you falling. It’s a step backwards for me.

 

[Guilty_AI]

My biggest issue with cinematic games is that they dont seen to think too deeply about the question "Why this shouldn't be a movie?".

How does being a game help improve the experience? A lot of the time it feels like they just tacked on a game and button presses so they could call themselves a "game"

 

[cireza]

By looking at the first Tomb Raider game and taking notes.

 

[Hobbygaming]

OP said advance not degraded

Lol facts. If anything, more FPS play the same

true but in a TPS you're a lot more limited when it comes to movement and gun variety

I disagree. You can have even more movement in a 3rd person game over a FPS because you can have different dodge animations and other things in a 3rd person game

 

[Rat Rage]

They can't.

 

[TGO]

true but in a TPS you're a lot more limited when it comes to movement and gun variety

On the contrary, the first thing I noticed with RE8 is how easier it was to move around more naturally.
One of my biggest gripes with RE7/8 was when you had to run away the enemy and you would suddenly be blocked by a pot or box of on the floor.
That problem is eliminated in the RE8 update

 

[Excoman]

What makes a game "cinematic"?

When framerate makes you feel sick.

 

[64bitmodels]

I disagree. You can have even more movement in a 3rd person game over a FPS because you can have different dodge animations and other things in a 3rd person game

you can't bunny hop or rocket jump (effectively, anyways) in third person. not to mention that first person flows better, third person when handled incorrectly can feel like shite and really tanky to control

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

This is a real problem imo.

The obvious direction was to take third person games to the open World which they done, it then became stale for most companies so they went for an in-between which was 'wide linear' like Uncharted 4, Lost Legacy, Gears 5, GoW 2018 and TLOU II. These games are phenomenal.

What can be improved upon which would directly influence gameplay? -

Optional story paths like Skyrim, Fallout and Mass Effect which really influences what happens narrative wise which in turn promotes multiple playthroughs which is important for $70 single player games.

Physics systems where you can blow apart cover and use the environment against the enemy. Gears 4 & 5 made small improvements with this in terms of pre set props which could be used like giant industrial pipes tied up shot to then roll down and hit enemies.

Enemy A.I. TLOU II was a leap forward in this field but with the near 10x leap in CPU from PS4/XBO to PS5/Series more improvements can certainly be made.

Environment size and variations. Open World settings like cities with playable paths and branching paths.

Overall it's a difficult thing to do. I do feel the above will be improved but if you look at the new God of War and Hellblade it does seem to be the visuals that are the main improvements which is disappointing but not surprising.

 

[rofif]

Amazing physics, full realistic destruction
Much better AI

as for gameplay and what you do, there can be some stuff done. for example to make the "gameplay loop" less... loopy/repetitive.
I don't want them to do too much. Not a fan of going open world

 

[NickFire]

The duds do not define the genre for me, and I disagree with the premise that these games are stagnant. My take is that some people love these kind of games, some are neutral, and some don't like them for various reasons.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Plagues. It does all the conventions. Im enjoying it but in the same way you have the cal arts animation style that so prevelant this game is kind of a “course in game design” when it comes to all the conventions. A lot of filler. Cause it’s kind of like “get back to the rats please” but before that sneak pass these guards in tall grass and get to cart to hop over painted ledge. Just a reminder of where this genre is at currently.

I get the painted ledge thing, or ropes/fabric hanging from ledges. With so much detail in games these days, it helps the player to have visual queues. Even just a quick flash every so often to know what I can interact with.

I don’t think that’s a bad thing that needs to go away.

 

[Warablo]

God of War had a good balance of everything, even if the design is still the same.

 

[Phil_the_goat]

There's no way to make shit taste better. Plague tale 2 is everything I hate about modern gaming. I blame sony for this cinematic crap becoming so popular. Thank god bayonetta 3 releases in few days cause I need palate cleanser.

 

[Majukun]

by going back to be games and not being cinematic anymore

but then people would not buy them

 

[Fbh]

Haven't played the new Plague Tale but looking at the genre in general it would be nice if they worked on making the gameplay outside of combat less dull.
Give me some real skill based platforming like we used to have in games like Prince of Persia, make fun and unique puzzles, improve the level design and encourage exploration, etc

I like cinematic games but when you aren't fighting or watching a cutscene they can often be boring:
In Uncharted 4 the combat and setpiece moments are cool but you spend at least half the game doing boring autopilot "platforming", solving the most basic of crate puzzles and going through very restrictive and linear walking and talking sequences. Then they open it up in a few areas and you can....drive around and look for tiny shiny spots which give you useless colectables.
In TLOU2 the combat is awesome, the cutscenes and setpiece moments are great but a large part of the game is waking around empty and monotonous looking post apocalyptic environments looking for the same handful of crafting materials by opening a million of mostly empty drawers and maybe solving the ocasional safe "puzzle" (aka looking around for a code that is nearby)


Some of the stuff that people have mentioned here, like better physics and AI are definitely cool and something I'd like to see pushed more than graphics. But if they are all just used for combat we'll go back to the same problem, the combat will be even cooler...but then it's back to pushing around a cart and braindead platforming