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Who knew that giving a female character feminine features would be so offensive.

yurinka

Member
I'd like to see this quote.

And why do you need to be attracted to Abby?
I don't need to be attracted to Abby or fictional game characters I don't think they need to be sexy.

I only say that I and a lot of people prefer other type of looks and are tired of this trend of getting rid or beloved, iconic characters to replace them with manly looking women who are a crappy character that fails at getting the same charisma of the replaced one. See the new Masters of Universe series, TLOU2, Terminator: Dark Fate, Ghostbusters 2016 and so on. In Star Wars they did it successfully, Rey is charismatic and the way she replaces Luke is very well integrated in the story and doesn't feel forced.

I haven't finished TLOU2 (because it's so damn bleak and I need a little lightheartedness in my gaming these days) but with the way Abby is set up narratively at what point am I meant to go: "Well sure there's all THAT. . . but at least she's a good looker." This isn't UNCHARTED 4 with the sexy villain (where it makes more sense at least given the old school adventure vibe the game has going for it) this is a rough world where a gal who has suffered loss is probably more worried about being in peak physical condition than the male gaze.
Her role in the game is to be a trans and lesbian friendly female character not attractive for heteresexual males who has to replace as main character the heterosexual male co-protagonist. Because heterosexual males being co-protagonists is something bad and toxic for SJW, in the same way that they consider as something bad and toxic the traditional female beauty.

Abby reminds me of Linda Hamilton from T2 in they the design just fits. . . just like the design of the mousey friend of Abby's fits. Two character designs that aren't trying to get your dick half full and instead help tell a good story (and it's not even like there aren't classically attractive women in the game).
Sarah Connor was a great, badass and charismatic character, as Ripley was in the Alien series, or like Ellie in TLOU.

Abby is not like Sarah Connor, she would be more like Teela in the new He-Man series or Grace in Terminator Dark Fate. It's just an uncharismatic character put there for SJW tokenism that most fans of these series don't like.
 
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Kuranghi

Gold Member
The secrets is in the bolded. You'd be surprised by what your friends really like behind closed doors. ;-)

And yeah, I wish more conversations that we are having could be done in GAF on the internet in general.

Okay last message I really need to go and make dinner lol

I'm not just talking about who they say they find attractive to me, I'm meaning who they are in relationships with. I don't know why I or you would assume that a large proportion of our friends are lying to us (they could be embarrassed by what they perceive I would think of the truth but I've never implied to anyone that I would be judgemental of them in that way, they can love/like who they want regardless of what inmutable characteristics said person has) and themselves.

I'm not saying its not possible but I don't think its likely tbh, where I live there is definitely soft-homo/transphobia in some parts of the society but when push comes to shove I rarely those people caring what people do in their bedroom and who they fancy, because its not accepted by general society to be like that at this point.

In the same way gay people I've known will say shitty stereotypical things about straight people and make jokes they still don't actually have any proper hate towards them, granted that could be because they are in the minority in some cases but most gay people I've known aren't very easily peer-pressured into not speaking their minds. Quite the opposite in fact, gay men and women alike.

Anyway this is all kind of personal experience and I don't think we will convince each other (through this form of communication at least), but as I said before, thanks for the civil chat.
 

StormCell

Member
And the BEST thing about all of this, GAF, is you can sleep easy at night knowing every big studio in the industry has guys like this who will ensure that only men's eyes are hurt/offended by their women character designs.
 

Papacheeks

Gold Member
So I was working on character designs with a team of about 8 of us. One of the characters we are creating is a female character. Now mind you two of the team members are females and one of them was the main designer for the female character. So she was showing us the design and one of the guys said "Making her so curvy will offend women" and this guy actually point to the tweet of that guy who left Insomniac over the design of Rivet. So an argument broke out with the other guys in the room and the two women just sat there watching them argue. What I found very funny was that the person who design the character was a woman and here you have this feminist male telling us that women would find that design offensive.

To play devils advocate it made no sense to make Rivet look curvy when looking at how ratchet is built and designed as a Furry/animal character. Rivet looks like literally the female version of ratchet which was what they were trying to do. The guy who tweeted, was right that if the game is edgy or has a look where ex appeal is something your game will have I see no issue showing off the female form in tasteful ways that show off feminine designs.

But it also depends on the project.

In the case of Ratchet it honestly made no sense to make rivet some busty curvy figure when shes literally a animal/space creature type of thing and it is more or less a kids game. Like crash with his girlfriend its a joke inspired by roger rabbit and jessica.

Like honestly I think there was a better version of this at some point that was scrapped:



Just give her a shirt instead of a tank top showing the shape of breasts and you got yourself a good female figure.
 
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DForce

Member
Either a character is too "sexy or too "ugly". People are always complaining about how female characters look in video games today.

- Women getting upset that Tracer and R-Mika are showing their asses
- Mortal Kombat X and 11 characters being "ugly".


Feminists are the ones crying and saying how "sexy" female characters in video games aren't how women shouldn't be portrayed... yet there are women all across the internet with OnlyFans accounts trying to get dudes to subscribe to their shit. lol
 
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levyjl1988

Member
I remember when Square Enix was trying to pulled this shit with Black Widow in Marvel Avengers.


I fucking hate people who are trying to make females into men, they don't want me to buy the game.
 

PJX

Member
To play devils advocate it made no sense to make Rivet look curvy when looking at how ratchet is built and designed as a Furry/animal character. Rivet looks like literally the female version of ratchet which was what they were trying to do. The guy who tweeted, was right that if the game is edgy or has a look where ex appeal is something your game will have I see no issue showing off the female form in tasteful ways that show off feminine designs.

But it also depends on the project.

In the case of Ratchet it honestly made no sense to make rivet some busty curvy figure when shes literally a animal/space creature type of thing and it is more or less a kids game. Like crash with his girlfriend its a joke inspired by roger rabbit and jessica.

Like honestly I think there was a better version of this at some point that was scrapped:



Just give her a shirt instead of a tank top showing the shape of breasts and you got yourself a good female figure.
Sorry but all the female artist I work with says their reasoning for not making Rivet curvy is bs. I know a few female gamers who didn't buy the game because of the guy's tweet and their nonsense reasoning.
 

recursive

Member
Because one has a bad history, whereas the other doesn't. We don't have to erase history and context just because some may disagree with the take.
I still don't understand why someone holding the opinion that a video game woman with a manly physique is not attractive is "dangerous." It may not line up with "progressive" ideals but why does it make it dangerous? Is there only one answer to what is attractive? How is a differing opinion of attractiveness dangerous with a bad history? Who is setting the standard that everyone is judged by to determine the level of danger?
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
Sorry but all the female artist I work with says their reasoning for not making Rivet curvy is bs. I know a few female gamers who didn't buy the game because of the guy's tweet and their nonsense reasoning.

I don't believe those women were "REALLY" going to buy the game either. I'd call them out, personally.
I still don't understand why someone holding the opinion that a video game woman with a manly physique is not attractive is "dangerous." It may not line up with "progressive" ideals but why does it make it dangerous? Is there only one answer to what is attractive? How is a differing opinion of attractiveness dangerous with a bad history? Who is setting the standard that everyone is judged by to determine the level of danger?

I'd like to live in a world where we didn't "NEED" to have such a long winded discussion (as a gaming community) about a woman character that has more "man-like" physical features. I hate that it has to come down to "is she hot or not" all the time.

Like I'm 70% of the way through the game and LOVE IT! I love the Abby character too, but there doesn't seem to be enough conversation about the total character. Just her bicep and should size. It's just wack convo to me.
 
I don't believe those women were "REALLY" going to buy the game either. I'd call them out, personally.


I'd like to live in a world where we didn't "NEED" to have such a long winded discussion (as a gaming community) about a woman character that has more "man-like" physical features. I hate that it has to come down to "is she hot or not" all the time.

Like I'm 70% of the way through the game and LOVE IT! I love the Abby character too, but there doesn't seem to be enough conversation about the total character. Just her bicep and should size. It's just wack convo to me.
Abby is an individual character that took exceptional lengths to prepare herself for revenge, and her body is a part of that preparation. I can understand why a lot of people dislike her character, but I think many people hate her body type as an extension of their hatred of her.

Imagine for a moment that Abby looked the same way, but her entire role in the game was to hunt down the person who killed her mother. Then, when Joel ends up being killed by the same guy who killed killed her mother, Abby teams up with Ellie in a quest for mutual revenge. How badass would Abby be then?

How would that affect how many people hated Abby's character? How many people would complain that she looks like a man, and it's unrealistic that she's so strong, or that her body is so muscular? I'm guessing the number would be considerably smaller. People hate abby's body and abby's face because they hate abby. And I would argue that they have a good reason to hate abby, but to each their own.

Either way, Abby is an individual. Where it's getting really silly is in ensemble casts, and especially character creation options. If a couple of people on this forum are to be believed, Ubisoft's latest racing game is very lacking in options to make a character who looks traditionally feminine. I've noticed that trend as well, and it's starting to feel like the creepy other side to the "all women are beautiful, have large chests, and are wearing far less clothing than the guys" design of the 90s and early 2000s.

That wasn't ideal either, but now you have designers who seem to be treating cleavage or long flowing hair like it was a war crime. It's all done in the name of inclusion, but really it's just excluding everyone who feels otherwise. Inclusion would be variation. Options are nice, but often players are not even given those anymore. Honestly, it feels like the religious prudes of the 90s got their way, they just had to wait for a new religion to get the job done.
 
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recursive

Member
I don't believe those women were "REALLY" going to buy the game either. I'd call them out, personally.


I'd like to live in a world where we didn't "NEED" to have such a long winded discussion (as a gaming community) about a woman character that has more "man-like" physical features. I hate that it has to come down to "is she hot or not" all the time.

Like I'm 70% of the way through the game and LOVE IT! I love the Abby character too, but there doesn't seem to be enough conversation about the total character. Just her bicep and should size. It's just wack convo to me.
That's cool bruv unfortunately your world looks to be one sided and only accepting of one opinion. Pretty sure if you accepted views contrary of your own you would realize that world exists for you now.

At any rate I have hit my Johnnie Walker limit for the night so thanks for the good conversation and wish you the best.
 
Well attractive(not necessarily sexy) characters are more likeable. A lot of people found it hard to like Abby as a character, I've seen people try to kill Abby in the end game out of pure hate.

Just like the real world unattractive and ugly characters are generally seen with a dark lens. That said I know of one ugly character that people like and that is the bald guy in GTAV.
 

Woggleman

Member
I am far from a misogynist and quite progressive but modern day SJWs are not much different than the religious right of the 80s and 90s.
 

laynelane

Member
It's amazing that he thinks he knows what will offend women based on the opinion of one dude and a sector of the internet. I've noticed more and more with this...not sure what to call it - movement? - a very loud and out of touch minority believes they speak for millions of people they don't know and have never spoken to. It's so irrational and weird and often so offensive to the very people it purports to "represent".
 

MayauMiao

Member
So I was working on character designs with a team of about 8 of us. One of the characters we are creating is a female character. Now mind you two of the team members are females and one of them was the main designer for the female character. So she was showing us the design and one of the guys said "Making her so curvy will offend women" and this guy actually point to the tweet of that guy who left Insomniac over the design of Rivet. So an argument broke out with the other guys in the room and the two women just sat there watching them argue. What I found very funny was that the person who design the character was a woman and here you have this feminist male telling us that women would find that design offensive.

Tell male feminist he can always start a new game studio in Afghanistan.
 
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TLZ

Member
This is all hypocrisy. Certain people preach diversity, but the same people don't accept a certain type because it offends them. Aren't curvy women, who basically are 90% of the women of the world, if not more, part of diversity?

This hypocrisy isn't made for diversity. This hypocrisy is only a VIP club for specific people. This is no different to other VIP clubs who only allow specific people as well.
 
D

Deleted member 820760

Unconfirmed Member
Is the guy who’s having a cry absolutely essential to the team? If not, then tell him to fuck off. Don’t let cunts like that ruin the team’s vision.
 

Unknown?

Member
I will never understand how we preach not to tell women how to dress, and they can wear as explicit as they deem fit, but that somehow changes in designs for game characters.

Like, how does that work?

Am I just crazy?

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

yes i am going crazy mike napoli GIF
Let's face it. Most guys are from the Dark Ages. They're cavemen. And they like a woman to be showing her cleavage and to be wearing eight-inch heels. And to be wearing see-through underpants. But for me, a woman looks best when she is just absolutely naked.
 

Vaelka

Member


Yeah, we're a ways off from that Faye

What's especially telling is that they threw in a screenshot of him being shirtless there.
Remember it's okay to have men with their shirt of for literally no reason, but dear lawd forbid women show anything.

That said I don't think she looks bad and I do think Faye's Anime design would look a bit weird irl in this setting.
If it was a more generally cartoony setting it'd be different.
But I still find it weird that they didn't give her a hairband it's so obviously missing and also in the end of the day the main difference is midriff.
This design isn't even that less '' spicy '' than her Anime design and I just really fucking annoyed with this constant demonization of women showing skin and sexuality.

If people didn't comment on that at all and then they just threw this design out I wouldn't care I would've expected it to be different in a live action take.
Same with the Lola bunny thing if the movie director had never made those shitty comments about it I wouldn't really have thought about it at all.
Usually what upsets me the most and what I find the most annoying is the virtue signalling surrounding it.

This is such an American thing too... I really have no clue why America took such a massive step backwards into puritanism.
But sadly everyone has to deal with it because of how centralized things are in the US.
I dunno if it's social media or what but it's the same with politics on Twitch or whatever, I don't believe for a damn second that EVERYONE collectively at the same time did a complete 180 and became full on actual socialists.
I think it's 99% grifting and people just trying to fit in and make money and I think it's the same in the entertainment industry.
I don't believe that all of these game devs and game journalists did a complete 180, I don't believe that the same game journalists who threw out the N-word and made rape jokes 6-8 years ago all at the same time collectively became the most hyper progressive people imaginable and that it was genuine.

I admit that I fucking rejoiced when Mortal Kombat ditched the ultra-sexy costumes and made female characters look like actual fighters, but I swear I never signed up for the lunacy displayed here.

I feel like I played a part in the evolution of this crazy shit.
I like some of the older MK costumes, like the earlier ones I didn't like the MK9 ones tho.
With that said I do think that MK had a problem with the characters looking too much like color swaps and they still do in some cases with the male Ninja's.

I do find what you're saying to be a bit strange tho, does dressing more modestly make you look like a fighter?
Why does this not apply to men running around with their shirts off for no reason?
Actually I had a reaction to the marketing of MK11 because they pushed that narrative but all I could think is how the female characters all looked like swimsuit models still.
It's not like they made them buff, they just cut their breasts off but they're still skinny as hell.
Even Street Fighter has buff women that actually look physically strong, and that's in spite of them having very revealing designs.
The women in MK11 actually look more like models to me in terms of bodies and face and how much makeup they wear etc.
 
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Ev1L AuRoN

Member
The problem I see is when they strip the character of any female trait.


But that's the norm, right? Woman and Man are equal in every way, any femininity is bad and consequence of the patriarch.

Don't even get me started on toxic masculinity.

It's just entertainment, we don't see men getting pissed because of hot male characters, but women are obsessed with virtual bimbos, like, they really think they need to compete with CGI woman?
 

radewagon

Member
The problem I see is when they strip the character of any female trait.
Abby has female traits. It's just that her appearance belies a lot of that. I think what many people forget is that Abby's physique does not exist in a vacuum. It is heavily influenced by the game's narrative. Her body being the way it is not "normal" nor is it sold as such. There's a great moment when the game shifts to young Abby where the player is made aware of just how much the present-day Abby is not her default state. The present-day Abby is the result of trauma. The present day Abby is Abby going to great lengths to survive in a harsh and cruel world.

I legit love Abby's character. I have no bad things to say about her and I am shocked at how much TLOU2 was able to make me like a character that was initially so toxic. Like, I knew the game was going to try and make me sympathize with her. It was obvious. I'm just surprised that it worked as well as it did.
 
Sounds like they were having battle to prove who is the most woke. Similar to a rap battle but more cringe.

What shade of blue hair did the male feminists have?
 
One of my colleagues used to go there but I remember him showing me a post that got him banned and I just laughed. It was in a topic during an E3 conference and Sarah Bond came on the stage. He ha snever seen her before so he made this exact comment "Wow Sarah Bond is a gorgeous woman" That comment there got him a banned and the reason they gave him was that he was ignoring her accomplishments.
The first thing in a woman is her accomplishments :-D
But a lot of unattractive women (specially those active on twitter) will see a traditionally attractive woman like Cammy and they'll get upset
Nah, everybody prefers to look at attractive women, even women. This is in part why you usually find those on everything that needs some representation to sell stuff (and often these days directly in the sales staff too). They also are on women magazines, etc. nobody will by your clothes if they make them look like a whale that got stuck on land, same for your makeup and your fries.

Now there is a place for + size models, and anorexia is not sexy in my book either.
 
Nobody in TLOU2 world is a sex symbol so that is not a good example.
I think that kind of looks works for the environment, the only aspect of how they developed that environment that I find suspicious is how they are tolerant to everything socially speaking. Women don't seem to have that many kids, despite being apparently promiscuous and even when pregnant they take unusual risks (pregnant woman can be pretty aggressive if they need to, but they tend to be on the cautious side... because they are carrying a baby inside their belly, and the baby is very fragile, society doesn't force them into this role).

My suspicion is that a society that would revert to this state of development, for whatever reason, would also develop similar culture and values as societies at that level of safety usually develop, I.E.: Very conservative in nature, nobody would take stupid risks with their lives (nobody alive in the story anyway).

Going overboard with Abby's arms is the least of the problems the TLoU2 story has, yet that seems to be what people focus on.

I think Ellie would be pretty good looking is they were to put her in a fancy dress and cleaned her up a bit (but she is on the young side for me).
 

lachesis

Member
Whenever this topic comes up, I do feel rather baffled about the double standard of some devs's attitude about violence presented in the game vs sexual objectification...
 

ANDS

Thought gaf was racist. Now knows better, honorary gaffer 2022
I only say that I and a lot of people prefer other type of looks and are tired of this trend of getting rid or beloved, iconic characters to replace them with manly looking women who are a crappy character that fails at getting the same charisma of the replaced one.

What the hell does Ghost Busters have to do with anything? And what "trend." There are more traditionally attractive women in video games than the effort TLOU2 made to make a range of characters (male and female) reflect what you are likely to roll up against in real life. . .

I'd still like to see the quote by ND that specifically says they designed Abby to not be attractive to male players.
 
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