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Why do so few people talk about the REAL reason the Dreamcast failed?

KungFucius

King Snowflake
How many DC owners could actually find the pirated games and figure out how to burn and run them? Only a small fraction. It was probably significant but not a leading cause. Not enough people cared once the PS2 came out and Sega was not a leading player anymore when the system launched so it failed to catch on beyond the early adopter crowd.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Namco?? You know they develop Soul Calibur, right?

The Dreamcast had enough third party support, much better than the N64, and not like they needed much more to be competitve. It had tons of exclusives and great games. It had the best Sports series, it was the console king of fighters, some great Racing games, adventure games, RPGs, it had Quake III arena with online multiplayer, it had Tomb Raider...what killed the Dreamcast was piracy. The Dreamcast was sold at a loss at US$199 at launch. Think about that. That's not a typo. US$199. No console launched that cheap ever (adjusted for inflation). They needed to recoup the losses by selling software, but they simply couldn't sell enough, fast enough. Piracy killed them in the crib.
The only good game Namco made on DC was Soul Calibur.

From there, yes there many good third party games, but at that time the killer third party games were EA Sports, PS had FF7, and Konami was still big back then with MGS and Silent Hill. Sega didnt have a solid sim racer like GT 1 and 2. Sega Sports werent even that great on DC. NFL and NBA were good, but baseball and hockey were bad.

They were missing too many games.

DC was a solid system if you liked Sega games, Capcom games and arcadey kinds of software.

I didnt bother with DC because I wanted Ace Combat, EA NHL, whatever MGS game came next etc.... Never saw them coming out. Tekken was awesome on PS1. Never saw those coming out either. VF is the most boring well known fighting game. So I just waited and PS2 was around the corner with a DVD drive.
 

AJUMP23

Gold Member
I think it was the coming PS2 that caused people to hold off. I know I didn't buy one because I saw the PS2 just around the corner and was willing to wait.

Also I made a guy mad because I went to his house once and he had a 100 CD of pirated Dreamcast games, and I told him that was stealing. He told the guy that brought me over not to bring me around any more.
 

Manji Uzuki

Member
Piracy was a small factor. Dreamcadt failed because it didn't had the right games. I love the system and it's catalogue but what people wanted was things like Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, silent hill...

Dreamcast was excellent at arcade like games, like shumups, fighting games, arcade racers, etc. But as good as those games were they werent what was moving the market.

Also PlayStation was super popular, and having a good dvd player packed with your console was a very nice proposition
 
.........I was 7 years old when i got a PSOne.

I only ever bought pirated game CD's for $1-$2 a pop.

What are you talking about?

Piracy was rampant, period, during that era of gaming.

Dreamcast failed for a multitude of reasons, not just of piracy. If that was the case, Nintendo and Sony would have rolled up shop.
 
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cireza

Member
Dreamcast failed because SEGA was losing a ton of money starting from 1998. Despite the high quality of the games and and sales, it was impossible for them to make a profit because of how absurd their investments were (hardware and software).

To me, it is simply a case of poor management. Had they taken a more reasonable approach to their investments, they could have survived. Even the Neo Geo lasted longer lol...
 
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Genx3

Member
Piracy hurt the DC for sure.

I don't think there ever was a console that got pirated as much.

There were other reasons as well.
DC should've used DVD as it's optical media.
DC should've had a better controller.
Sega should've went out on a limb and sped up the GPU and CPU to combat the upcoming PS2. Just sell the console for an extra $50 or $100 if you add DVD as well.
Even though Image Quality was actually over all superior on DC over PS2. The PS2 could render more triangles.

Sega was already hurting financially because of poor management decisions like making a console (Saturn) with 11 Processors in it.
 

theclaw135

Banned
Lack of a tentpole FPS. Enter a console boasting the considerable expense of including a modem, fueled by one of the very most powerful GPUs in the gaming market. Guess what happens? The lion's share of the system's FPS games arrive after the hardware is discontinued! (or without online play, completely missing the point)
 
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Personally I think Dreamcast died because nobody trusted Sega to properly support the thing. I mean, they company had previously released the 32x, the Sega CD, the Sega Saturn, all with pretty meh support and game libraries. At the end of the day, buying a console , especially at launch is a financial risk and people aren't willing to jump on a platform if the company has a track record of not supporting it's previous consoles properly, or if they switch hardware every couple of years without proper care and direction in terms of harware. There's a reason console generations are long, and it's because if you buy a console at launch , you want to get your money's worth with it...

It also didn't help that Dreamcast was the first console of that generation , meaning by the time the other consoles would be out, it would be outclassed from a hardware perspective. And let's face it , Sega didn't really have the games. They couldn't attract most third party ,and most of their first-party titles were pretty niche games most people could live without.

I don't think piracy was the issue. PS1 had a pretty big piracy problem and it didn't stop them from selling like hotcakes, and besides, people have to buy the console to pirate the games, and hardware sales of dreamcast weren't that great to begin with.
 
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JCK75

Member
h5xONWS.jpg


The Actual Reason the DC Failed.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I remember reading gaming articles in the 90s saying DC would succeed on colour alone. NES, SNES and PS1 were all white/light grey so DC would join the success.

lol
 

bobone

Member
It wasn't piracy.
That was not a big thing in 1999 or 2000, at least not in the US.
And the US market makes or breaks every console.

It died because of internal problems at Sega.
The heads of Sega literally said that in every interview about the subject.
Sega had major screw ups for years, no money, and their market share was a joke by 1999.

I love the Dreamcast, my favorite game of all time (skies of arcadia) is on it.
But it would have failed regardless of what hardware was in it, or what software was on it.
 

Allandor

Member
The C64 failed because of piracy. It sold many units but the software sales were pretty bad.
The Dreamcast did not sell well, didn't have many heavy hitters (that really any people buy) and got really bad PR. Piracy might be another reason but I really don't think it was a big one. If piracy would have been a big think, the console would have had higher sales numbers.
 
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Nikodemos

Member
The Dreamcast failed because of Sega's several years' worth of mismanagement and loss of mindshare (due to said mismanagement). In order for the Dreamcast (or a console similar to it) to succeed, you needed to roll back the clock to circa 1989 and start from there.
 

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
I don't know, if easy access to pirated games killed platforms, PC gaming wouldn't be a thing.
i mean nowadays games needs to be constantly updated with patches....i dont think you can update pirate games though
 

Varteras

Gold Member
Dreamcast failed for a number of reasons. Piracy was probably the least of its concerns. The controller was limited compared to what came before it. It only had a single analog stick after PlayStation made dual sticks popular. You had to buy a rumble pack when PlayStation, once again, made built-in rumble the standard. It also had fewer buttons which limited gameplay functions a bit. It continued to use CDs right when DVDs were being pushed as the new standard medium and thus the console was also not a cheap alternative DVD player like PlayStation 2 was.

EA abandoned Sega and that was a huge deal at the time. PlayStation had become THE name in console gaming at that point, too. Sega had already been on a decline since hitting a high point with the Genesis but even that console failed to top the Super Nintendo. They were already dropping in popularity even before the Saturn came out and was a disaster. Dreamcast didn't need to be a great console. It needed to be outstanding to the point of a miracle in order to claim sufficient market share against PlayStation 2, Gamecube, and Xbox at a time when Sega's name meant less than it had in a long time.

The fact that Gamecube and, to a lesser extent, Xbox were beaten as badly as they were is proof that PlayStation was just too dominant at that time. More or less, the other three consoles were fighting for the scraps that were left and Dreamcast was not in a good position to contend with Gamecube and Xbox. As much as I liked the console, it was doomed to fail because of repeated bad decisions by Sega leading up to its release.
 

JCK75

Member
The controller that basically gave us the now industry standard design of triggers and the analogue stick as the default input?


Funny because Sony had this in 1997

W1LyU0R.png




And Nintendo this in 96

er9YvTR.jpg






Dreamcast got all of these PC games like Quake 3 which where an absolute nightmare to play as even with the N64 they made the Yellow buttons that could at least act as a way to aim on the right.

Out of the platforms if I had to guess which one created an industry standard, I'd suggest it was the two that didn't flop.
 
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SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
It was certainly the first moment where that went mainstream. There were earlier consoles that had weak or no copy protection but DC arrived at a point when CD burners were ubiquitous and broadband internet was just seeing wide adoption.

I don't know if DC could have hung in either way. The hardware sales weren't really there and the support was dropping off. DC was always kind of sustained on arcade ports and first party stuff. It was on the wrong side of a lot of trends.
 
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MastaKiiLA

Member
If piracy was so important for its failure, the machine would've sold a lot more units. However, it got annihilated by the GC and PS2. So I think that's a convenient copout for Sega just being Sega and not having the games to push the platform, and coming out with an underpowered machine. Being first out of the gate usually puts you in a position of being underpowered, and if that's going to be the case, you better have the games to back it up. Sega's software lineup simply didn't have the mass market appeal to allow the console to thrive. The PS2 had Sony's games and all the 3rd party glory. It was never going to work for Sega, which is why they folded shortly afterwards.
 

nbkicker

Member
I really like the dreamcast but dont think piracy had anything todo with it, the controller wasnt great and they just didnt have the software support like sony had, can remember playing ready 2 rumble boxing on day i got my dreamcast and being blown away, same as soul calibur, but once the ps2 came out with tekken tag and ssx , sega just stopped trying, think there was a lot of battling going on between sega america and sega japan and it just destroyed the company, if anything the reason the dreamcast failed was sega itself
 
Nah, plus DVD Burners werent cheap at all back then. Piracy never killed a system, it actually sells more of them. DC died for all the reasons already told throughout the years.
 

MrFunSocks

Banned
Funny because Sony had this in 1997

W1LyU0R.png




And Nintendo this in 96

er9YvTR.jpg






Dreamcast got all of these PC games like Quake 3 which where an absolute nightmare to play as even with the N64 they made the Yellow buttons that could at least act as a way to aim on the right.

Out of the platforms if I had to guess which one created an industry standard, I'd suggest it was the two that didn't flop.
Those controllers don't have analogue triggers and the main control input, the left analogue stick, in the default thumb position.

The xbox controller built off the dreamcast controller. That then became the 360 controller, which quickly became the industry standard.
 
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JCK75

Member
Those controllers don't have analogue triggers and the main control input, the left analogue stick, in the default thumb position.

The xbox controller built off the dreamcast controller. That then became the 360 controller, which quickly became the industry standard.

Analog Triggers while important for racing games, do absolutely nothing in regards to the other shortcomings of that abomination.
 

Sethbacca

Member
Having grown up in that era I always thought the Dreamcast failed because Sega had a bunch of shitty unsupported expensive add ons for the Genesis, then dropped the Saturn and cut and run on that without much fanfare and support, and by that point people were pretty much fed up with Sega’s halfassed approach to hardware ?
 

Patrick S.

Banned
.........I was 7 years old when i got a PSOne.

I only ever bought pirated game CD's for $1-$2 a pop.

What are you talking about?

Piracy was rampant, period, during that era of gaming.

Dreamcast failed for a multitude of reasons, not just of piracy. If that was the case, Nintendo and Sony would have rolled up shop.
You did not buy copied PS1 games at the beginning of the PS1 era for a dollar. A blank CD cost five times as much back then.
 

MiguelItUp

Member
Piracy wasn't THE reason, but it was definitely one of them. DC was such a phenomenal system, especially for the time. It did so many things incredibly well, and was pretty ahead of the curve. I still wish everything was different for the system and Sega's future.

Talking about this almost made me forgot how easy the flip top PS2 slim was to mod. All I needed was a wad of paper towel, tape, and Swap Magic, lmao.
 
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Nocturno999

Member
The Dreamcast was fading before the PS2 was released to the market. A lot of fanboys still want to believe that Sony entered the room with a gun and killed it.

And yes, piracy was horrible (and very easy to do compared to other consoles) on the DC. Most of my friends had racks of pirated discs.
 
Not necessarily the US. But yeah, sorry, I didn't think about poorer countries (no offense meant).
haha no worries man. At the time I was living in a country highly notorious for piracy, and so movies/music/games were all easily pirated and sold in night markets riddled around the streets. And they were all, if converted US dollars, were absolutely dirt cheap.

The hardware, like a console or a DVD player, was a different story. But surpass the upfront pay for the device, the content was easy and cheap to come by. Crazy how the PS4/X1X (and current generation consoles) marked the biggest curb to console gaming piracy and now it's practically nonexistent in today's world compared to how widely abundant it was then.
 
Ignorant Sega excuses, no one wants to blame the games not being wanted on average.

You can't say piracy was anything more than a 5th degree factor at best when games were selling 500-900k copies until post discontinue announcement.

It just so happened none of the games that sold that were SF, Virtua Cop, Shenmue, Blue Stinger, or Skies if Arcadia. They were mostly Visual concepts games.

In japan nothing worked well at all outside pack ins.

It's got noting to do with piracy, resources, ps2, or DVD. People are attached to the games so it's hard for them to swallow that's the problem, people found games like Tekken Tag more buyable than Soul Calibur or JSR. Dreamcast fans consider that as an insult to the library and reject the premise but the thing is the sales charts prove this.

Most Dreamcast games were lucky to sell 100-200k. In japan and Europe that's more like 20-50k.

The Dreamcast was fading before the PS2 was released to the market.
No it wasn't. Not sure why people believed this, Dreamcast wasnt soaring in sales at launch it took several months.

Namco had one of the biggest launch games on the system.

The real reason was the EA boycott. In 1999, if you didn't have Madden you were fucked. Back then Madden WAS a system seller in the US.
Sega's Madden replacement was the leading franchise on the system by a wide margin and is why Sega sold half the consoles they did.

Hogwash.
 
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Killer8

Member
NUK68Wn.jpg


There you go, the real reason the Dreamcast failed.

Every other reason is just contributing to the longest cope in the history of gaming.
 


Dunno if someone else already posted this, but if not here 'ya go. Piracy was nowhere near as big a factor for Dreamcast's demise at that time as people like to think. How many owners do you think had anything better than 56K or even 28K dial-up internet to download tons of those 100s of MBs-sized games?

Jenovi gets to the real reasons later in the vid but basically the problem was lack of enough profit over a period of time, partly due to pricing Dreamcast too low for the Western market (SoJ wanted $249, Stolar rolled out $199, and SoJ went with that due to the positive reception).

They had Soul Calibur, but nothing after. They outright refused to port Ridge Racer 4/5 and Tekken Tag Tournament, even when Sega begged for it. Namco's whole Dreamcast was basically SC and Mr. Driller, they had 0 follow up project.

Yeah, people like to think Namco was a big supporter of DC but they barely did much outside of Soul Calibur. Although I'm curious to what extent Sony may've had a hand in "tying them up" from focusing on Dreamcast more, but companies like Capcom easily put more real weight into the system than Namco.

Also part of the reason I scoff when people try saying Soul Calibur was the best game on the system: best fighting game maybe, and even that is debatable (DOA 2 was right up there and even more visually impressive in ways). But hard to really say it's the best on the system period, when it has others at that level or better (Skies of Arcadia, Jet Set Radio, Sonic Adventure 2, Shenmue 2, RE Code: Veronica, Grandia II etc.).

Namco had one of the biggest launch games on the system.

The real reason was the EA boycott. In 1999, if you didn't have Madden you were fucked. Back then Madden WAS a system seller in the US.

EA not being there hurt Dreamcast A LOT, but EA put out some BS reasons for not supporting it, and even the commonly accepted reason isn't 100% true.

Basically, there's someone from EA at the time who said Dreamcast was a horribly designed console and that's why they didn't support it. Pretty flagrant and fraudulent reason all things considered, when anyone who understands console design can point out all the smart choices in Dreamcast's design and architecture.

The common reason of EA not supporting due to Visual Concepts making competing sports games holds more weight, but the factor that holds even more than that which isn't talked about was EA having stock in 3DFX, who were developing one of the two Dreamcast prototypes...and then ruined their shot by leaking its existence to the public well before SEGA were ready to divulge things publicly.

Apparently EA tried convincing SEGA to stick with the 3DFX design anyway since that'd of meant a ton of financial benefits for EA themselves, but SEGA rejected, and that's probably what really drove EA away from Dreamcast support.

Theres only one reason the DC failed,

Thats on Sega. Incompetence. Plain and simple.

Sega should take a lesson from Nintendo in how to be successfull in the video game field.

1) ignore the dorks on specialised game forums, they represent 0,00001% of the game population. Yes Neogaf Im talking about you lol.

2) aim for the mass market. See the Wii, DS, Switch.

Sega had the games and the talent, it just lacked the vision and the marketing.

To add to that: Nintendo realized very early (the Japanese side, at that, likely due to working with them) that they could not compete with a company like Sony head-to-head in the mid '90s at the same beat they did with SEGA in the early '90s. Sony simply had many more resources, distribution channels, cash, and in-house solutions to pull from. That's why even though the N64 saw sharp marketshare drop for Nintendo over the SNES/SFC, it was still a very profitable venture and Nintendo as a whole revamped themselves very well in the late '90s as the multiplayer console of choice, furthered their handheld strengths and had a cultural phenomenon in Pokemon (made by a company that SEGA previously worked with btw, only to never work with them again. Basically Pokemon could've been a SEGA IP had they kept working with Game Freak post-Pulseman, go figure :/).

SEGA did none of those things, or didn't do them as a cohesive whole. Their strengths were their arcade pedigree, and bringing the arcade experience home. IMO they should've leaned even more into trying to keep the arcade gaming market going stronger with even more innovative experiences that couldn't be had at home, while pushing graphics well ahead of consoles of the time (which they already did with Model 2 and 3). Meanwhile, they could've taken a Neo-Geo approach and built a home console version of their Model 2 (and later Model 3) boards with exact same performance, priced for a premium market with appeal of playing SEGA Model 2 games at home.

With that type of design they could've also went with some innovative games that could've felt like "for the home" experiences while also working well in an arcade environment. SNK already allowed gamers to transfer save progress between arcade and home, and Capcom had games like Red Earth which were very long games (unusual for arcade games) with transferrable save progress, functioning a lot like console action-RPGs.

Meanwhile, in that kind of scenario I actually think SEGA would've been better off as a 3P developer for Sony and Nintendo, at least on the console side of things, and a lot of the games they made for Saturn would've eventually been PS1/N64 games instead, likely enjoyed better sales and marketing. Tie that in with maybe rewards for playing the games in the arcades including benefits towards those hypothetical console games for PS1 and N64, I think they'd of been much better off financially this way.

But that wouldn't mean SEGA'd of had to fold on hardware altogether, that's where I think the handheld market could've been beneficial for them. If they basically brought forward the Nomad design but with much better battery life while keeping it affordable, that'd basically of kept a means of still commercializing the Genesis/MegaDrive while also building games specifically for that new type of portable device. Sony already would show later on that someone other than Nintendo could be very successful with a portable (PSP); it's actually possible that if SEGA went to focus on portables instead after MegaDrive/Genesis, Sony might've ventured to contribute to that design, and SEGA would just continue onward as a handheld rival for Nintendo for the next decade or so, making a very different environment there than what we ended up with.

At the very least, it'd of meant a Switch-like device way earlier than the Switch we actually got (y)
 
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Dunno if someone else already posted this, but if not here 'ya go. Piracy was nowhere near as big a factor for Dreamcast's demise at that time as people like to think. How many owners do you think had anything better than 56K or even 28K dial-up internet to download tons of those 100s of MBs-sized games?

Jenovi gets to the real reasons later in the vid but basically the problem was lack of enough profit over a period of time, partly due to pricing Dreamcast too low for the Western market (SoJ wanted $249, Stolar rolled out $199, and SoJ went with that due to the positive reception).


This doesn't make sense either, the DC was able to quickly get into profit territory at $199. DC bleed money in Japan regardless of what SoJ thought was better.
 
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