ulantan
Member
They are popular because people enjoy them its that simple.
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sainraja
Member
Stop being overdramatic. Ya'll are only paying attention to people whose opinions you should not be paying attention to, lol. They are not the majority, and if they are, as you like to portray, then Xbox never really had a chance.
The reality is that the items you are pointing out happen in reverse as well — "...if PlayStation has a bad performing game, they are happy", "...if a PlayStation game reviews well, reviewers are shills"...blah blah, let's not pretend this is one-sided. Not too long ago, when no one had any idea what CMA was going to do, many of the people doing it in reverse were perfectly fine with Sony leaving the console business because they would get games on Game Pass—all that non-sense; who cares about competition right? Not to mention the overplayed dismissive statements people like to say about Sony games, when in fact they simply made the presentation of those type of games better compared to before but this is a whole other thing.
So, depending on your own preference, your own bias, you focus on those whose opinions don't match yours, and they simply stand out more to you because of that.
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Punished Miku
Gold Member
I actually agree with most of that. I'm sure it is a minority. And I'm sure there's console warrior trolls on both sides, for sure.
I don't know what you're talking about with Sony leaving the console business though. I missed that whole thing, and never heard anyone even talk about it.
I wasn't being that dramatic though honestly in my first post. I said what I meant.
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Doctor Hades
Member
I loved the original Xbox because Microsoft were new to the console space and launched not only with revolutionary-for-its-time console hardware (a hard drive as standard with an online gaming service a year later) but they were releasing all kinds of games. Granted not all of them were good but they had so much variety back then from platformers to third-person shooters to beat 'em ups and beyond. Halo: Combat Evolved was the killer app and it refined the FPS on consoles. They had Project Gotham Racing and later Forza Motorsport, both strong franchises. They had the support of SEGA, making the Xbox feel like a spiritual successor to the awesome and shortlived Dreamcast, and they even had their own sports label with snowboarding, golf, basketball and American football. It was a genuinely exciting machine in my opinion but it arrived too late to make an impression and failed to sell.
The 360 was a refinement of the original Xbox and, red ring of death fiasco aside, it was a great machine with plenty of games but as Xbox Live became a huge success, it saw Microsoft shift away from single player games to being more multiplayer focused. I think this was a mistake. They had become incredibly complacent by the time the Xbox One arrived and that generation saw the first-party games dry up with Microsoft seemingly thinking that Forza, Gears and Halo were enough to sell the Xbox brand. It wasn't. What makes me laugh is that Microsoft thought the PS4 was successful last generation because it was more powerful than the Xbox One so they released the (admittedly gorgeously designed) Xbox One X... but it didn't have any games to showcase the hardware!!!
And here we are now 2.5 years into the life of the Xbox Series X|S with its anaemic first-party support (still) and a string of disappointments from lacklustre The Medium to Halo Infinite (underwhelming despite being delayed) and now Redfall, which is the worst game I have played on any system this generation. It's not a great look for Microsoft and the Xbox at all.
Could Xbox become a software brand in the future rather than hardware? We already see evidence that it might happen on PC with GamePass where the games are played via an Xbox app. The problem is that whereas SEGA successfully ditched the hardware market to become a software-only publisher, Microsoft are in the unfortunate position of not having a strong games portfolio to draw on other than Halo (which hasn't been great since Bungie abandoned it, let's face it), Forza (Horizon and Motorsport being Microsoft's only real triple A franchises right now) and Gears of War (which is nowhere near as popular as it used to be). The lack of first-party games means that Xbox is just not as strong a gaming brand as PlayStation or Nintendo. There is depressingly little excitement surrounding Xbox because of the lack of triple A exclusives and that's a shame because the Xbox Series X hardware itself is actually a lovely piece of kit. I own one but it is hardly used compared with my PS5.
The 360 was a refinement of the original Xbox and, red ring of death fiasco aside, it was a great machine with plenty of games but as Xbox Live became a huge success, it saw Microsoft shift away from single player games to being more multiplayer focused. I think this was a mistake. They had become incredibly complacent by the time the Xbox One arrived and that generation saw the first-party games dry up with Microsoft seemingly thinking that Forza, Gears and Halo were enough to sell the Xbox brand. It wasn't. What makes me laugh is that Microsoft thought the PS4 was successful last generation because it was more powerful than the Xbox One so they released the (admittedly gorgeously designed) Xbox One X... but it didn't have any games to showcase the hardware!!!
And here we are now 2.5 years into the life of the Xbox Series X|S with its anaemic first-party support (still) and a string of disappointments from lacklustre The Medium to Halo Infinite (underwhelming despite being delayed) and now Redfall, which is the worst game I have played on any system this generation. It's not a great look for Microsoft and the Xbox at all.
Could Xbox become a software brand in the future rather than hardware? We already see evidence that it might happen on PC with GamePass where the games are played via an Xbox app. The problem is that whereas SEGA successfully ditched the hardware market to become a software-only publisher, Microsoft are in the unfortunate position of not having a strong games portfolio to draw on other than Halo (which hasn't been great since Bungie abandoned it, let's face it), Forza (Horizon and Motorsport being Microsoft's only real triple A franchises right now) and Gears of War (which is nowhere near as popular as it used to be). The lack of first-party games means that Xbox is just not as strong a gaming brand as PlayStation or Nintendo. There is depressingly little excitement surrounding Xbox because of the lack of triple A exclusives and that's a shame because the Xbox Series X hardware itself is actually a lovely piece of kit. I own one but it is hardly used compared with my PS5.
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NightmareFarm
Member
That's not a valid counterargument to my statement nor does it even attempt to tackle what I wrote.
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Flyingpanther
Member
I hope they will not fail. I think the problem is they focus to mutch on gamepass to get games there on day one, instead of make good exclusives. I always have both xbox and playstation since the first xbox. but this is the first time I don't have the urge to buy a xbox.
sainraja
Member
I mean, it was pretty much suggested, and some people were outright saying that if MS feels generous enough, they can share some content with Sony once they have control. I am not using their exact words, but the implication was there. Regardless, my main point was, the things people do, who go to the extremes, cannot be explained in any reasonable way.
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Let me clarify they aren’t wanting the Xbox to fail it’s still too early in a consoles life cycles it’s just Microsoft has too many questions and not a lot of answers also on how to build a game lineup.
Tsaki
Member
1. Budgets would not be smaller. Game dev costs have ballooned across the board for all publishers. Also Sony makes a good amount of money from their 1st party and people buy them because they enjoy them. So putting more money into them to make more out of them is quite apparent. They found their footing and customers noticed.
2. Same as above. 1st party makes them money and it shows in their financials. This quarter there was drop in profits in part because of no 1st party releases.
3. Again, as above, people buy Sony's 1st party because of the quality, not the other way around. They've proven themselves to their costumer base for the last decade.
4. Game prices rose even with Xbox's huge acquisitions, Game Pass, cheap Series S, capable Series X and their 1st party that is bigger than Sony's at the moment. 3rd parties also did it. It is a change that is driven by macroeconomics and rising dev costs (something you want to continue as per #1). And wouldn't you know it? Xbox followed right behind them (and Nintendo with Zelda at the moment. I have a feeling Odyssey 2 will also be $70). Never mind the simple principle of higher price --> lower demand, which also showed in their financials.
5. PSVR is completely irrelevant to Xbox. Sony saw it as a growth vector and an opportunity to make money out of it, from their own 1st party software and the more important 30% that outside companies give them. It is kind of ironic though that even with Sony's push and competitiveness with PSVR2, MS just canned their AR division and fired everyone.
6. Speculative. Could happen, could not. Remember, when you artificially increase the price of something, the demand for it lowers. I tell you what though. I have noticed a definite quality increase in the base PS+ offerings since the price increase.
Did MS's push with GP have something to do with the competitiveness of PS+? Sure, to some degree. A big part of why we have Extra and Premium is Game Pass. Even still, Sony doesn't put their big 1st party day 1 in there because they still need to have profits. They don't have the parent company throwing money at them to keep them afloat. On the contrary it seems that Playstation is the division that keeps other Sony divisions from going under. I mean hell, again, in their latest financials the Bungie acquisition shows as money lost in the Playstation division. Would the ABK deal show as a massive $70bn red in Xbox's financials, that they don't hope to recoup in the next decade? No, it would be put under the parent company, and voila, the Xbox division just grew overnight and reap all the ABK revenue without the cost attached to it.
All this to say that, there is a limit to how competitive Sony can be with PS+, when MS could theoretically be losing $1bn every quarter on GP and not feel a thing.
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OuterLimits
Member
Do you enjoy it when Sony sends bags of cash to 3rd party publishers to lock down games on your preferred console? They obviously have tons of 1st party talent so why do they feel the need to pay for 3rd party exclusives?
ulantan
Member
All these games that sell in the millions are bought by people who have the same access to bayonetta and dmc but choose to play the sony games as well as things like dmc. Microsoft needs insane blockbuster shit to draw people in its what they lack and they are failing for it. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they aren't good.
ToTTenTranz
Banned
This isn't true. Most on this forum want XBox to be able to compete but disagree with Microsoft's approach to competitiveness.
People seem to misunderstand disagreement and light mocking / satire over those approaches as some wish for XBox to die and then suffer from a monopoly.
That would be a tiny, even if sometimes very vocal, minority. But I think the moderation team has been successful at sending away those true trolls that wish for Xbox - or Playstation, or Nintendo - to wither and fade so their preferred platform turns into a monopoly (that inevitably uses their position to screw them over).
I think most people are simply seeing a good example in ony's approach of nurturing and growing first parties and IPs, and preceding almost all acquisitions with 2nd-party projects to make the expansion more organic. And they want Microsoft to do just that instead of just using the Office & Azure money to foreclose Playstation out of existing 3rd party IPs like they did with Bethesda.
Why did Halo Infinite fail so much? Why did Redfall fail so much? Why is Fable completely absent after being teased so many years ago? Why is Starfield being delayed so many times despite taking Playstation out of the equation?
But we can see the differences in approach developing in real time, for example with live service games.
Microsoft wanted to make Halo Infinite's multiplayer a live service game.
- They got 343i, which up to this point had only made single player and multiplayer coop games, to make a live service game out of no experience. The game was delayed a full year after the first gameplay trailer was received so poorly. The delay meant a very noticeable drought in Xbox's 1st party output. When it finally came out, the live service part of the game was terrible. It failed miserably.
Sony wanted to make The Last of Us 2's multiplayer (Factions 2) a live service game:
- They've been talking about it for years. We've been hearing about Sony buying small companies and hiring people with know-how on live service games for what, 5 years? Eventually Sony saw they still couldn't get the results they wanted so they made the most expensive acquisition in company's history, Bungie, despite giving them full publishing rights in the contract. And we still don't have a date for Factions 2. I'm not all that interested in TLoU after what they did with TLoU2 and I'm probably not going to play Factions 2 ever, but I have no doubt it'll be a great game because of how careful and dedicated Sony is being with it.
And despite Factions 2 being a no-show year after year, we're not really missing 1st party offers in the Playstation. And another curious thing we learned last week is that Sony cancels like a dozen games in pre-production every year. Their quality control during early development is great (if only they did as well on their PC ports...), but the actual truth is they only greenlight about 1 out of 6 projects in pre-production. This just means Sony's handling of their 1st parties isn't at all miraculous: they just fail fast, and spend truckloads of money on pre-production that serves no other purpose but from separating the good from the bad, or the good from the great.
Why wouldn't everyone wish for Microsoft to have a similar approach to their existing 1st party games?
Solidus_T
Member
Persecution complex. Plenty of people were fine with - and cheering for MS acquisition of ABK and hoping for Sony to be pushed out of gaming in the years after it. If I am happy about anything, it is that the deal got blocked, but that's about it. Microsoft needs to actually invest in their studios and not rely on shady tactics like astroturfing.
What?
During the XB360 era, Wii outsold both PS3 and XB360 (also DS utterly dominated the PSP).
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NightmareFarm
Member
By access, what exactly do you mean? People can physically buy it of course but they would have to know it exists before they can do that. On the other hand, everyone even non gamers know GOW or TLOU exists because of how popular it is. And that popularity can be attributed to factors such as them being exclusive to the most popular console brand, the hyperfocus on state of the art graphics and photorealism as well as how dumbed down and streamlined the gameplay mechanics are and how much narrative appeal they have compared to other games. These attributes do not make a game "good". They just make them marketable. There is a difference.
The notion that "popular" == "quality" is also a fallacy. Argument ad populum fallacy. By your logic I guess Nicki Minaj is high art or that a movie like "Venom" is of greater quality than "Source Code".
STARSBarry
Gold Member
To be fair to the Wii the attach ratio was much lower compared to the other consoles. It was the console that sold to non gamers, and in large numbers. It did tottaly matter though.
Report: Broad Wii Audience Leads to Low Attach Rate
www.shacknews.com
This is because people literally bought it for Wii fit and Sports and therefore made no further purchases.
As someone who has owned every console for every gen since Gen 3 while the wii had some fantastic titles, especially post Operation Rainfall where smaller publishers cottoned on that their was a market for the Japanese exclusives in the was. I found myself enjoying the 360 for its solid exclusive library the most.
Sure their was some misses but it was also a period where xbox was smashing out hit after hit, that's what people want a return too. Although it does feel like where getting Perfect Dark Zero and Too Human over and over these days, which is sort of 360...
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ulantan
Member
If that's the case say all these games are dog shit. Microsoft needs to make popular games then because currently they aren't. They need to give people what they want.
Wii is currently the Nintendo console with the second highest tie ratio:To be fair to the Wii the attach ratio was much lower compared to the other consoles. It was the console that sold to non gamers, and in large numbers. It did tottaly matter though.
Report: Broad Wii Audience Leads to Low Attach Rate
This is because people literally bought it for Wii fit and Sports and therefore made no further purchases.
As someone who has owned every console for every gen since Gen 3 while the wii had some fantastic titles, especially post Operation Rainfall where smaller publishers cottoned on that their was a market for the Japanese exclusives in the was. I found myself enjoying the 360 for its solid exclusive library the most.
Sure their was some misses but it was also a period where xbox was smashing out hit after hit, that's what people want a return too.
Nintendo software and hardware sales data from 1983 to present
I'm going to keep this thread updated with new, more up to date info whenever is possible. UPDATED WITH DATA UNTIL DECEMBER 2023 独創 What does the following data represent? The data here presented is either financial data or shipment data provided by Nintendo itself directly from Nintendo's...
www.installbaseforum.com
Even when compared to the TV console that finished second that generation, the total software sales gap isn't large.
Total software sales (units)
WII: 921.85M
PS3: 999.40M
Note: Nintendo doesn't count digital-only games.
Source:
IR Information : Sales Data - Dedicated Video Game Sales Units
www.nintendo.co.jp
Business Data & Sales
Sony Interactive Entertainment offers its business and sales information for those seeking to understand our sales wins.
sonyinteractive.com
Spyxos
Gold Member
Why should they invest their own money and a lot of it when they can just relax and collect from the others 30%. They would certainly continue to invest but I just don't see this huge sum without competition.
People would also buy God of wars and Uncharteds and Last of Us because the brand names are strong. I don't think the games would be bad, but the quality would certainly suffer without competition.
PSVR 2 was to stand out from the Xbox. Since the consoles are almost identical in terms of hardware this time.
Fbh
Member
Do I want Xbox to fail? Nah, I think competition is good for the industry and I'd like to see them go back to the glory days of early Xbox 360.
Do I want gamepass to fail? Yes
Do I want their business model based on a giant corporation just buying large publishers instead of making new studios and games to fail? Fuck yes.
One thing is actual bias and the other thing is there being more playstation owners due the simple fact that Sony has sold a lot more consoles than Microsoft.
Generally speaking I've seen GAF praise Microsoft when they actually put out good games like Forza Horizon 5 and Hi Fi Rush and also shit on Sony when they release crap like The Order 1886 or Destruction All Stars. Hell even Horizon seems to get mostly lukewarm reactions here aside from the graphics
Do I want gamepass to fail? Yes
Do I want their business model based on a giant corporation just buying large publishers instead of making new studios and games to fail? Fuck yes.
One thing is actual bias and the other thing is there being more playstation owners due the simple fact that Sony has sold a lot more consoles than Microsoft.
Generally speaking I've seen GAF praise Microsoft when they actually put out good games like Forza Horizon 5 and Hi Fi Rush and also shit on Sony when they release crap like The Order 1886 or Destruction All Stars. Hell even Horizon seems to get mostly lukewarm reactions here aside from the graphics
fran.fernandez
Member
Nobody want it to fail… is just inevitable
Spitfire098
Member
If a mult-trillion dollar mega corp starts buying up large 3rd party publishers and than making those games exclusive to their own, than yeah I'm going to actively pray for their downfall.
These mfs bought AKB and than afterwards came out and said they're not done with acquisitions. Like wtf
These mfs bought AKB and than afterwards came out and said they're not done with acquisitions. Like wtf
hybrid_birth
Gold Member
bentanchorbolt
Banned
The people who want Xbox to earnestly fail are fanboys of another system, it needs no more explanation that this. They have attached an unhealthy level of pride to a plastic box they didn't create, they do not realize they are merely consumers and fail to understand the ramifications of having only one high end option on their respective space.
FalsettoVibe
Member
Everyone is talking about Xbox's missteps of late. Not just GAF.
Explain the rest of the internet/world then.
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GarlicPrawn
Neo Member
I’ve always been a PS gamer, but would buy an XBOX in a heartbeat if they would have strong exlcusives I liked. If starfield ends up being fire, I might just do that.
Jboemios
Banned
The funny thing most people that want "xbox do better" (you know what I mean) are the usual suspects
Tsaki
Member
>Why should they invest their own money...
Like I said, to make more money. 1st party is profitable for Sony. Closing their studios and let 3rd parties do the rest doesn't make sense because they directly bring in profits. e.g. Invest $200 million in Naughty Dog. Get $800 million out of them. Whereas if they just kept the money, they would just have $200 million.
>People would also buy...
No they wouldn't. God of War Ascension didn't sell near as well as 3, never mind surpass it.
Santa Monica Studio needed to adapt and rethink their approach and lost a lot of talent until 2018.
If Uncharted comes back and is not made by Naughty Dog, I don't expect the same quality and certainly not the same sales as A Thief's End. If it somehow does, it will be because it surpassed 4 in every way, not because people need Uncharted.
>PSVR 2 was to stand out...
Where do you get that? Sony could let PSVR1 continue with PS5, since Xbox is obviously not competing in the VR space, but they didn't. They made PSVR2 because the devs that bring in the money needed it if they were to bring their VR games to Playstation.
Yes, they stand out from Xbox, but that is just a side effect of MS not bothering, not the primary driver.
German Hops
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief
Because I hate neon green.
Tams
Member
Just deserts.
MiguelItUp
Member
I'm sure some do because of their loyalty to whatever plastic box they prefer, sure. They exist. But I also think some just love to chase negative press of any form. I feel like it takes mere seconds for people to pounce onto something that may be slightly negative (sometimes not even THAT bad) and try to drag it as hard and long as they can.
In the last couple of years it definitely looks like negative gaming related press gets much more attention than the positive. I mean, you can just take a look at some threads and see how quickly their pages increased, lol.
In the last couple of years it definitely looks like negative gaming related press gets much more attention than the positive. I mean, you can just take a look at some threads and see how quickly their pages increased, lol.
I don't want them to fail. What I want to see is competent development of new games. Stop the astroturfing, manage their studios competently, and actually create new experiences that I wish I could play. Do something to actually earn me back instead of trying to take things away from me.
Also, discussing their positions, successes, failures, etc., is not wishing for them to fail. Too many kids these days grew up with the notion that saying what people do not like to hear is tantamount to being against something / someone. Honest discourse is nothing more than honest discourse.
And while I do not want MS to fail in general, I do want MS to fail in its recent acquisition efforts. I am completely against them having ownership of COD (which I still enjoy). I am not going to buy new hardware to play it, nor do I plan to put their company on auto-pay to play it. And frankly, I don't want them anywhere near COD even if they keep it multiplatform. Their gaming software recent track record and their plans to make it more suitable for cloud / switch suggest they will ruin the game IMO.
Also, discussing their positions, successes, failures, etc., is not wishing for them to fail. Too many kids these days grew up with the notion that saying what people do not like to hear is tantamount to being against something / someone. Honest discourse is nothing more than honest discourse.
And while I do not want MS to fail in general, I do want MS to fail in its recent acquisition efforts. I am completely against them having ownership of COD (which I still enjoy). I am not going to buy new hardware to play it, nor do I plan to put their company on auto-pay to play it. And frankly, I don't want them anywhere near COD even if they keep it multiplatform. Their gaming software recent track record and their plans to make it more suitable for cloud / switch suggest they will ruin the game IMO.
The Tourmaline Gorilla
Banned
The first point is a fact - yes, MS is the one failing Xbox.
But let's be real here - there are many, many, many console warriors (many of whom are on Gaf) that want the Xbox to fail. And the same can be said for the console warriors on the Xbox side (wanting Sony to fail). Let's call a spade a spade. Keep it real.
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REDRZA MWS
Member
This response literally made me laugh out loud. thank you! Been going trough a lot personally lately and havent laughed in a while. I needed that.
STARSBarry
Gold Member
Wii is currently the Nintendo console with the second highest tie ratio:
Nintendo software and hardware sales data from 1983 to present
I'm going to keep this thread updated with new, more up to date info whenever is possible. UPDATED WITH DATA UNTIL DECEMBER 2023 独創 What does the following data represent? The data here presented is either financial data or shipment data provided by Nintendo itself directly from Nintendo's...
Even when compared to the TV console that finished second that generation, the total software sales gap isn't large.
Total software sales (units)
WII: 921.85M
PS3: 999.40M
Note: Nintendo doesn't count digital-only games.
Source:
IR Information : Sales Data - Dedicated Video Game Sales Units
www.nintendo.co.jp
I should have specified other consoles that generation then and not Nintendo products across decades.
Total software sales (units)
WII: 921.85M
PS3: 999.40M
This is really useful data because you then sit it next to the perspective consoles total sales and that the 79 additional million software sale diffrence is on the one with the smaller install base.
Meaning the attach ratio would be the smallest that gen.
Well unless 360 can't include its downloads like Wii, it might not have had a disc like Wii Sports (which Nintendo therefore included) but everyone knows the homies played Uno on 360.
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wOs
Member
Not in any particular order and not all apply to the same person.
1. They bought a competitor and want to justify their position.
2. Microsoft hate goes well beyond consoles so they already disliked them from other practices.
3. They really don't give a shit, but love to see people get up in arms.
4. They bought the product ain the past and feel like they haven't gotten out of it what they put into it.
5. Unrealistic expectations and fringe desires that companies rarely pander to.
1. They bought a competitor and want to justify their position.
2. Microsoft hate goes well beyond consoles so they already disliked them from other practices.
3. They really don't give a shit, but love to see people get up in arms.
4. They bought the product ain the past and feel like they haven't gotten out of it what they put into it.
5. Unrealistic expectations and fringe desires that companies rarely pander to.
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Aenima
Member
Only low IQ fanboys want one or the other to complete fail and get out of the market.
I dont like MS as a mega corp. And i hope they new trend of buying big multiplatform publisher and IPs keeps failing, but Xbox as a division brought some good things for the console space and hope they are sucessfull enough to keep on the console space being competitive, cuz once the competition is gone, is bad for everyone.
I dont like MS as a mega corp. And i hope they new trend of buying big multiplatform publisher and IPs keeps failing, but Xbox as a division brought some good things for the console space and hope they are sucessfull enough to keep on the console space being competitive, cuz once the competition is gone, is bad for everyone.
GHound
Member
All of this except 2018 instead of 2020.
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Deerock71
Member
For starters, I don't think the Xbox division of Microsoft is going to pull Microsoft down to fail status ever. That being said, they're not pulling their weight in the software content division. They've suffered massively due to not having compelling software that makes people want an Xbox.
Listening to Phil state having good games on the system won't be enough to turn the tide against Sony and Nintendo makes me wonder if he knows of a little ass-kicker called the Xbox 360. That system had games people wanted to play even though there was a high probability of that thing RRoDing on you.
Listening to Phil state having good games on the system won't be enough to turn the tide against Sony and Nintendo makes me wonder if he knows of a little ass-kicker called the Xbox 360. That system had games people wanted to play even though there was a high probability of that thing RRoDing on you.
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