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[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

And if we all ask for a perm ban and stop talking about games, we would have even more time for gaming.

Shitty straw man is a shitty strawman.

Saying, "making threads to bitch about games you don't like is futile" is not the same as saying "all discussion on a gaming forum is futile", unless you're deluded into thinking that all discussion on this forum consists only of people bitching about games they don't like...

...because that would be an ostensibly dumbass thing to claim.

 

[k_trout]

I never know whats happening or why I'm doing shit in nearly every game

 

[Inviusx]

I think Souls games are my favourite for telling a story within the strengths of the medium. It's there if you want to pay attention, largely told through the environment or incidental item descriptions but it doesn't get in the way of gameplay. Also a lot is left open to interpretation.

 

[Drizzlehell]

The narrative of narrative-driven games isn't just "some aspect of it", it's the whole fucking point of those gaming experiences. So no, you don't actually want to play them. You just want to bitch about them, since you'd rather they don't exist.

The issue here is that you suffer from FOMO insecurity and entitlement. You think that every game should be made in a way that is tailored to what you like.

Um, no, actually, story is just a part of many games and it is entirely possible to enjoy the gameplay while disliking the story. What you're saying is dumb.

Although seeing how you're impotently raging at me right now, it seems like you're one of those users who thinks in binary because according to you, we should all either blindly praise your favorite pastime or leave because there's no in-between.

 

[mrmustard]

I never know whats happening or why I'm doing shit in nearly every game

Same. Most stories would fit an a beermat anyways. They just add hours and hours of drama, plot twists, betrayal, love, sex scenes or whatever filler stuff. For example, i recently played Shadow Warrior 3. I knew he wanted to kill some big ass dragon. And i'm fine with that, so I skipped like 90 minutes of useless cutscenes.

 

[Yoboman]

I would be happy if games stopped trying to tell traditional stories altogether. Get rid of cutscenes and games instantly become more enjoyable.

Or just not play those games

There are far far more games without any story than those that have them

 

[KXVXII9X]

Or just not play those games

There are far far more games without any story than those that have them

Exactly. I have to hold back a lot of frustration when people start going off on heavy story-based games with cutscenes and QTE's, acting like they are the only games around when they are getting less common. For every Final Fantasy 16 there are dozens of games that don't follow this style.

It's like you guys are getting more and more of what you want. Can you people let others enjoy the few story-heavy games we get in a year? I'm seeing less and less cutscenes (high quality ones) every year.

 

[Yoboman]

Exactly. I have to hold back a lot of frustration when people start going off on heavy story-based games with cutscenes and QTE's, acting like they are the only games around when they are getting less common. For every Final Fantasy 16 there are dozens of games that don't follow this style.

It's like you guys are getting more and more of what you want. Can you people let others enjoy the few story-heavy games we get in a year? I'm seeing less and less cutscenes (high quality ones) every year.

Yup and the lack of them is why they are hitting so big now. Demand is far outweighing supply. Good single player games are a dying breed while only growing in popularity.

It's why Sony first party games keep breaking records pushing towards 20-30 million, why RDR2 sold 50 million, partly why Hogwarts took off so big. Even games like Detroit have hit 8 million.

And conversely why people are so frustrated with games like Suicide Squad and Anthem

 

[Games of Today]

The first one is that most video game writing ranges from generic to bad, with extremely rare cases of something that's actually worth your time.

And the second is that it takes far too long to get to any meaningful story beats so if you're looking to engage in a a game primarily for its story, then usually you have to wade through a lot of mind-numbingly boring grind called "gameplay".

Now, to break down those two reasons a little bit, let's look at the first part of my argument - the bad writing. Maybe I'm just not playing the right kind of games but I swear, I can't remember any brand new game that I picked up in the last 3 to 5 years that wasn't a remake or a remaster and it would have a truly engaging and memorable storyline. Most of it is either severely lackluster or just painfully generic and forgettable. And when I write "good story", I really mean it. Try to find me a fucking Goodfellas of video games in terms of writing and execution of the story, and I will kiss you because I would love to play that game. The closest comparison that I can think of right now is perhaps Mafia, however, you need to remember that 1) Mafia was a remake of game that was already praised for the quality of its storytelling (but not so much for its gameplay), 2) it's still nowhere near as good as even the most lacking Scorsese films. So there you go, storytelling in vast majority of video games tends to be severely underwhelming, at least for me.

Now, that's not to say that there aren't any games that tell a decent story. I could think of a few examples from recent years that I could give some praise to. But the problem in most of those cases is that it takes far, FAR too long to actually get to the good parts, to the point where you almost wish you could just watch a movie or a TV show based on these ideas instead. Which ironically is exactly what happened recently with The Last of Us TV show. I've been putting off replaying the game (specifically it's remaster/remake) because I just didn't want to wade through hours of mediocre stealth gameplay just to watch a couple of cutscenes that are the actual highlight of the whole experience. Therefore, I was delighted that I could just watch this new adaptation instead, and finally enjoy the story in a proper live action format. I realize that this makes me sound like I just hate gaming but that's not the case at all. I just grew to dislike games that pretend to be movies. And, at the same time, I enjoy games that are actual games. You know, ones that have good and engaging gameplay and utilize the medium's unique strengths to tell a story in an interactive (and not cinematic) way. Or, you know, just provide me with a playground to be the hero of my own stories instead, which is what video games should be doing. I mean, dude, on most days when I get off work and want to zone out, I usually spend a few hours flying a space ship around the galaxy in Elite Dangerous, which for most passive observers would seem like the most boring thing in the universe, but I find it enthralling just because it's my story in this unpredictable virtual world. However, if I decide to sit down and engage in a game that sells itself as this incredible gem of video game storytelling, and then I end up mashing buttons for 3 hours and actually start thinking about doing laundry just as I reach the next boring expository cutscene starring planks of wood as main characters, then I generally start to question the tastes of modern audiences who think that this shit is any good.

Not sure if you're into FPS campaigns at all but have you played the CoD: Infinite Warfare campaign?

It came out in 2016 so it's close to falling in your 5 year range of game. But in my opinion it has some the best, if not THE best writing in any of the CoD games. Sure, you could argue that the overall plot is a generic save the world scenario but this is an FPS action game and not an intellectual thought experiment.

The interaction between the characters is phenomenal, every character is memorable, they all have an actual job on board the ship and they all speak with military lingo and slang that's based in reality. And outside of CoD 1 to World at War it's the only game in the franchise that feels like you're actually answering the "call of duty".

Layer that on top of amazing world building such as taking part in multiple, optional side missions, being able to sit down at your own personal computer to read and listen to expository interviews with the crew members, the semi open hub world and amazing planetary surface detail and you've got an incredible game on your hands.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Um, no, actually, story is just a part of many games and it is entirely possible to enjoy the gameplay while disliking the story.

Sure, but you don't buy a narrative-driven game when you dislike narrative-driven games in general because you think all game narratives are shit and so you are largely disinterested in them.

If this describes your tastes and you still go ahead to buy a narrative-driven game then you are pretty much wasting your money and being a ridiculous dumbass.

Why would anyone buy a game that they know up front doesn't align with their tastes?

What you're saying is dumb.

No actually, it's your take that's dumb.

Me: People who don't like a certain genre of games won't enjoy those games and therefore should focus on playing games they like.

You: B-b-but, even if I dislike narrative-driven games in general, I might find ones with gameplay I enjoy.

Me: Why take the risk?

You: Because there is a remote possibility that I might like the gameplay.

Me: Ok, then don't complain about the narrative, when the crux of your criticism is that you just dislike narratives in games in general. "I don't like..." is not a valid criticism. If you dislike narratives in general, play games that don't focus on them.....

My argument is common sense. Yours is fundamentally incoherent.

I think your general issue is one of arrogance. You seem to think that as someone who doesn't like a particular game genre, your opinion on said genre actually matters. It doesn't. To the people who do enjoy a particular genre, the basic prerequisite of meaningful discussion on that game genre is that you're actually a fan of the genre.

For example, I'm not gonna make a thread on NeoGaf to talk about how much I dislike sports games. Why would I think that sports games fans would give a shit about my opinion when I just inherently dislike the genre overall????... My opinion on sports games is invalid to fans of those games. I have nothing meaningful to offer in those discussions because any criticisms aren't borne out of inherent flaws of those sports games, but rather my overall inherent distaste for the genre (so I'm essentially biased against it from the start).

Equally, why would you think that narrative-game fans would care about your opinion on that genre of games, when you simply dislike the genre? We don't give a shit.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Maybe I’m unique or something, but I always prioritize gameplay and fun above all else including story and writing. Sure, a good story can help any game and even add to the experience, but I feel it doesn’t really mean much at all if the game just isn’t fun to play.

 

[kiphalfton]

this is also probably why the adaptation was so successful, it kept the parts of the game people really wanted and ditched the rest. people who wanted to replay the game now had less of a reason to since the adaptation is right there and lets them skip the gameplay for the story (which is really the #1 reason why anyone liked TLOU to begin with)

I really don't care for the gameplay in TLOU. Especially the first game. First game has too many things that waste your time and second game is too long and bouncing between Abby and Ellie sucks.

 

[64bitmodels]

no one is forcing you to engage with them.

criticizing story-driven games because they focus on narrative is like criticizing gameplay-driven games because they lack story.

you can't criticize gameplay driven games for lack of story because gameplay driven games are truest to the medium of being a video game. this would make more sense in a watched medium like TV and Movies but in videogames where immersion and interactivity are the main factors, it doesn't make much sense. unless the game's a pick your own adventure type thing like an RPG or adventure game

 

[Gordon Fearman]

Maybe try picking up a book, then. Or watching a movie that's not capeshit or some mainstream CGI fest.

Yeah but you're describing the capeshit of video games.

 

[Fbh]

Your gonna have to Inform me and many others Id rather on what was special or even engaging about GOW 2018 story?

Special? Nothing really.
But I liked the characters, I thought the writing was decent, I liked the relationship between Kratos and Atreus, the portrayal of Kratos trying to control his anger for the sake of his son and still coming to terms with his past, I like the slightly more grounded take on Norse mythology than what we usually get and the way it's integrated into the world, the exchanges on the boat, not to mention I thought most of the voice cast did a solid job. Also I just enjoyed the journey they go on and all the places it takes them (which I still consider to be part of the story).

Again, is it as good as Goodfellas or Pulp Fiction or The Shawshank Redemption? Obviously not even close.
But I think comparing it to those movies is also a bit dishonest. To me the equivalent of GOW in the movie space are high budget action blockbusters, and compared to those I don't think it has anything to envy. Specially over the last 15 years or so which have been dominated by stuff like Marvel, Fast and Furious and the Star Wars Sequels. The best action movie from the last 10 years was probably Fury Road and as much as I love that movie for its awesome visuals, great setpiece moments and great mix of practical and digital effect, the story wasn't anything to write home about either

 

[SeraphJan]

There is a market for everything, story drive game has its own audience.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

you can't criticize gameplay driven games for lack of story because gameplay driven games are truest to the medium of being a video game.

you can't criticize something that is trying to do the opposite thing. that is what i am saying.

you cant criticize an Action movie because it dosen't have "drama"

you cant criticize a thriller because it dosen't have action.

this would make more sense in a watched medium like TV and Movies but

no.

what if a criticize Civilization or City Skylines because they are just menus and cant control a character like in GTA?

criticizing a storydriven game becauses it focuses in story will be equally lame.

in videogames where immersion and interactivity are the main factors,

gameplay has nothing to do with immersion.

immersionn is achieved by what

1. Graphics and visuals: High-quality graphics and realistic visuals can help players feel like they are truly in the game world.
2. Sound design: Immersive sound effects and a well-crafted soundtrack can create a sense of atmosphere and help players feel like they are really there.
3. Storytelling: A compelling and engaging storyline can draw players in and make them feel invested in the game world..
4. Exploration and discovery: Providing players with opportunities to explore and discover new things in the game world can create a sense of wonder and curiosity.
5. Interactivity: Allowing players to interact with the game world in meaningful ways can make them feel like they are truly a part of it.

gameplay is the action of an INPUT and OUTPUT.


you totally destroy your argument by your own words:

it doesn't make much sense. unless the game's a pick your own adventure type thing like an RPG or adventure game

what did i say?. and a best example will be something like a visual novel

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

I absolutely hate "movie-like" stories in games, especially the awful formula of games like Uncharted and all its clones. Or even the new God of War style.

The only genre where story & narrative should be at the forefront is actual RPGs, preferably turn-based, and everywhere else the narrative should only help to frame the gameplay and get out of the way for most of the running time.

 

[BusierDonkey]

I hate how modern story-driven games need to have dialogue every second of the game as if I'm too stupid to figure out what's going on without being told. Non-stop expository babbling from characters gets grating and there have been games where I've just shut the voice audio off completely. Even when the character is alone, they start talking to themselves, describing the things I'm currently looking at as if I'd turned on descriptive audio for the visually impaired. Sometimes less is more.

 

[Drizzlehell]

Not sure if you're into FPS campaigns at all but have you played the CoD: Infinite Warfare campaign?

It came out in 2016 so it's close to falling in your 5 year range of game. But in my opinion it has some the best, if not THE best writing in any of the CoD games. Sure, you could argue that the overall plot is a generic save the world scenario but this is an FPS action game and not an intellectual thought experiment.

The interaction between the characters is phenomenal, every character is memorable, they all have an actual job on board the ship and they all speak with military lingo and slang that's based in reality. And outside of CoD 1 to World at War it's the only game in the franchise that feels like you're actually answering the "call of duty".

Layer that on top of amazing world building such as taking part in multiple, optional side missions, being able to sit down at your own personal computer to read and listen to expository interviews with the crew members, the semi open hub world and amazing planetary surface detail and you've got an incredible game on your hands.

Yeah, that was actually one of my favorite CoD campaigns and I'm glad that so many people also think that it's underrated. I didn't deserve all the shit it got at the time at all. It's a great example of how you can make a Hollywood Bayhem blockbuster in a video game form. It's also one of those cases where it's okay to have cinematic cutscenes and slower moments of character dialogue because these moments never go on for too long and most missions are basically those giant uninterrupted orgies of violence and explosions. So you really need those momentary moments of downtime in between missions to avoid sensory overload. And I can live with that. I honestly don't need lengthy, drawn-out moments of dull exploration or looting, and I find the structure of Call of Duty games highly entertaining. Their developers basically mastered the art of crafting entertaining, linear, single-player first-person shooter campaigns.

Sure, but you don't buy a narrative-driven game when you dislike narrative-driven games in general because you think all game narratives are shit and so you are largely disinterested in them.

I stopped reading here. You're raging at me because you completely misunderstood what I said. What a goober, lol.

 

[Drizzlehell]

I absolutely hate "movie-like" stories in games, especially the awful formula of games like Uncharted and all its clones. Or even the new God of War style.

The only genre where story & narrative should be at the forefront is actual RPGs, preferably turn-based, and everywhere else the narrative should only help to frame the gameplay and get out of the way for most of the running time.

Well, I don't think it's awful, really. It has its place in the history of the medium. But the problem is that it's way too omnipresent these days. Basically every PlayStation game has to have those stupid elements in them and it's becoming equally as tiresome as seeing the same gameplay gimmicks in every Ubisoft game that comes out these days.

 

[KXVXII9X]

Sure, but you don't buy a narrative-driven game when you dislike narrative-driven games in general because you think all game narratives are shit and so you are largely disinterested in them.

If this describes your tastes and you still go ahead to buy a narrative-driven game then you are pretty much wasting your money and being a ridiculous dumbass.

Why would anyone buy a game that they know up front doesn't align with their tastes?



No actually, it's your take that's dumb.

Me: People who don't like a certain genre of games won't enjoy those games and therefore should focus on playing games they like.

You: B-b-but, even if I dislike narrative-driven games in general, I might find ones with gameplay I enjoy.

Me: Why take the risk?

You: Because there is a remote possibility that I might like the gameplay.

Me: Ok, then don't complain about the narrative, when the crux of your criticism is that you just dislike narratives in games in general. "I don't like..." is not a valid criticism. If you dislike narratives in general, play games that don't focus on them.....

My argument is common sense. Yours is fundamentally incoherent.

I think your general issue is one of arrogance. You seem to think that as someone who doesn't like a particular game genre, your opinion on said genre actually matters. It doesn't. To the people who do enjoy a particular genre, the basic prerequisite of meaningful discussion on that game genre is that you're actually a fan of the genre.

For example, I'm not gonna make a thread on NeoGaf to talk about how much I dislike sports games. Why would I think that sports games fans would give a shit about my opinion when I just inherently dislike the genre overall????... My opinion on sports games is invalid to fans of those games. I have nothing meaningful to offer in those discussions because any criticisms aren't borne out of inherent flaws of those sports games, but rather my overall inherent distaste for the genre (so I'm essentially biased against it from the start).

Equally, why would you think that narrative-game fans would care about your opinion on that genre of games, when you simply dislike the genre? We don't give a shit.

They did mention they liked games like As Dusk Falls and Detroit Become Human. I don't think they hate narrative games but may think other games may do better with a different kind of storytelling. I'm wondering if it is the execution of some video game stories, they have an issue with rather than modern story-driven games.

I have noticed from observing people's interests in this forum and elsewhere online that there are different kinds of gamers who play games for different reasons. I am guilty of wanting games to be made exactly the way I want them. I think everyone has a bias of how they want their games to be made. I think the best thing gamers can do is explore what kinds of games you like and WHY. I blame part of the industry for being so cyclical and following trends so one group always feels left out in some way.

 

[Wildebeest]

The difficult question is what is considered a "modern story driven game" and in what way does it diverge from older story games which were more likeable. Going by game awards, it seems that what are considered the most prestigious modern narrative game are titles like God of War, Last of Us, Plague Tale. There is some more breadth than that, but these games are the model of what people think a modern narrative game is, with less respected modern game series like Tomb Raider or Assassin's Creed not being too different. These games are quite different to game series like Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill, or Final Fantasy. There are narrative award winners which seem to have a more "likeable" throwback or divergent like narrative design such as Inside, Hades, and Disco Elysium.

 

[Fuz]

I need to point out yet again that THIS:

Is an incredible piece of storytelling with very few equals in this media (and pretty damn high in general).

 

[hyperbertha]

Maybe try picking up a book, then. Or watching a movie that's not capeshit or some mainstream CGI fest.

You seriously think most books have good writing? Try picking up a Robert ludlum drivel fest.

 

[hyperbertha]

Well, okay, fair enough. I should point out that I don't necessarily make the comparison to movies to say that games should be exactly like that. It's just that movies are the closest proxy for comparison, in that they're also an audio-visual experiences with one key difference being that movies aren't interactive. But in general, what I mean when making this comparison is to point out that I usually get a lot more satisfaction out of movie storytelling that video game storytelling, so it's more about what you get out of it rather than how exactly it is presented. When I experience a good story, it can be really thought provoking, it can affect me or engage me on an emotional level, and just be an all-around immensely fulfilling experience. I can get all of that out of movies way more consistently than from video games. In video games the ratio of games with a truly satisfying narrative element (regardless of how its told) is extremely low, while movie industry is capable of churning out quality experiences multiple times every year.



In video games? A few examples that come to mind:

• Bioshock Infinite
• Silent Hill 2
• Star Wars: Knights of The Old Republic
• Metal Gear Solid
• The Stanley Parable
• Portal
• Mass Effect Trilogy

Interestingly enough, none of those games came out in recent years so go figure...

As for movies, shit, I could go on forever. There are so many. But the thing about them is that even the stuff that's typically considered as the lowest form of entertainment, such as capeshit, can reach such incredible heights that many games could only hope to achieve. Movies like Captain America Civil War or Avengers Endgame are both fantastic, and they're just "dumb comic book movies". And there's a whole world of cinema out there that can provide great experiences on a much more consistent basis. Even just last year there was a number of films that I thought were great. Movies like The Northman, Top Gun Maverick, Everything Everywhere All at Once, Nope, or Men, just to name a few. Comparably I thought that there were maybe like two video games last year that had something interesting going on in terms of storytelling. Both of which were indie titles because you'd be hard pressed to find a triple-a game with a decent story these days.

If you seriously think captain America or Avengers endgame had a good story, I dunno what to tell you

 

[Drizzlehell]

You seriously think most books have good writing? Try picking up a Robert ludlum drivel fest.

Pretty sure that at least the ratio of good to bad is much higher for books and movies than it is for games.

If you seriously think captain America or Avengers endgame had a good story, I dunno what to tell you

I don't know what to tell you if you think otherwise.

 

[LaughingStock]

A good story in a videogame is a bonus.
Gameplay is what's important.

 

[hyperbertha]

Pretty sure that at least the ratio of good to bad is much higher for books and movies than it is for games.


I don't know what to tell you if you think otherwise.

That's an illusion created by there being far more books than video games. The ratio is generally the same.

 

[Drizzlehell]

That's an illusion created by there being far more books than video games. The ratio is generally the same.

No, it's not. There's a metric fuckton of video games out there that were created since the 70s, and their numbers easily rival other media.

 

[Jada_Li]

I guess some forget that everyone is different and have different likes and dislikes. What's a good story and what's a bad story; what's good gameplay and what's bad gameplay is all SUBJECTIVE. No one's opinion is right or wrong within this context.

Video games that are story driven and/or cinematic are likely for those who value and appreciate the exploration of in-depth characterization, theme and plot (may be the book-worm/lover of movies and series/intellectual/creative/mentally stimulated types who are most attracted to that type of game but clearly is also enjoyable to them), while video games that are gameplay driven are likely for those who value getting straight to the point gameplay and fun with little to no thought process about any themes and so on but rather the focus may be on strategy, action or something along those lines which also could be defined as intellectual, creative and mentally stimulating depending on gameplay. And I'm sure some games encompasses both styles.

Is it too much to ponder how diverse the gaming audience is?

 

[Gordon Fearman]

No, it's not. There's a metric fuckton of video games out there that were created since the 70s, and their numbers easily rival other media.

You think the number of video games since 1970 rivals the number of books, a medium that's 4000 years old?

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Some recent games with great stories:

This thread's got me wondering if the TV Series and Movie adaptations of Detention did the game justice.

 

[Kokoloko85]

Yeah, the Last of Us part one was great. 9/10, great story/characters for a videogame.

I'd give Witcher 3 a 7.5/10. Clunky combat, boring open world. Wasn't keen on the story or characters.

Agree. The combat in witcher 3 really let me down, the pure gameplay. Whereas TLOU2, I loved the combat.

I tried a few times to play Witcher 3 but I couldnt do it. Will try again with 60fps. Id rather Witcher 1 - 2’s meh combat instead of Witcher 3 trying the action combat and being pretty bad at it. The story and characters seem great though. X factor in open world, I havent heard much about it.

Sleeping dogs had better combat By far and more fun to play.

 

[Kwaide]

I don't like overly story heavy games, but I do want some type of story. It help ground the game so I doesn't fill like a series of random trials. I also help to give extra motivation of seeing the rest of the story. It's like the difference between the crossing the road to get to the other side, and crossing the road to rescue the princess.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

Super Meat Boy is optimal single-player video game storytelling.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I guess some forget that everyone is different and have different likes and dislikes. What's a good story and what's a bad story; what's good gameplay and what's bad gameplay is all SUBJECTIVE. No one's opinion is right or wrong within this context.

Video games that are story driven and/or cinematic are likely for those who value and appreciate the exploration of in-depth characterization, theme and plot (may be the book-worm/lover of movies and series/intellectual/creative/mentally stimulated types who are most attracted to that type of game but clearly is also enjoyable to them), while video games that are gameplay driven are likely for those who value getting straight to the point gameplay and fun with little to no thought process about any themes and so on but rather the focus may be on strategy, action or something along those lines which also could be defined as intellectual, creative and mentally stimulating depending on gameplay. And I'm sure some games encompasses both styles.

Is it too much to ponder how diverse the gaming audience is?

Well said.

But I think there is one common point all of us can agree on.

Make cut scenes a skippable option!

 

[Fredrik]

I like the story in lots of games. The problem is getting the gameplay and map interesting and not just a 10 hour corridor with trigger points for cutscenes.

 

[Rhazkul]

I hate how modern story-driven games need to have dialogue every second of the game as if I'm too stupid to figure out what's going on without being told. Non-stop expository babbling from characters gets grating and there have been games where I've just shut the voice audio off completely. Even when the character is alone, they start talking to themselves, describing the things I'm currently looking at as if I'd turned on descriptive audio for the visually impaired. Sometimes less is more.

This sounds like the Witcher 3 and was one of the main reasons why i dropped the game shortly after the Bloody Baron. Gameplay wasn't really that amazing too. Overrated game.
Remember Half-Life 1? Man, what a groundbreaking game - even 25 years later. The protag doesn't talk shit, there are no cutscenes and NPCs are straight-forward, the gameplay is fluid and good.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Some people act like it's impossible for a game to be story driven but have good gameplay too and lots of it, that's not the case

 

[hyperbertha]

No, it's not. There's a metric fuckton of video games out there that were created since the 70s, and their numbers easily rival other media.

Ok this is just stupid. Not only are novels far outnumbering games, they also have far more difficulty gaining exposure. It's easy to find trash games on steam. But most novels you'll find in stores are atleast decent enough to gain some publicity.

 

[Drizzlehell]

Ok this is just stupid. Not only are novels far outnumbering games, they also have far more difficulty gaining exposure. It's easy to find trash games on steam. But most novels you'll find in stores are atleast decent enough to gain some publicity.

Do you have a single shred of evidence to back up that claim?

Not that it matters anyway because I can go over a basic list of mainstream movies and games that came out just last year, and when you compare them in terms of quality of storytelling then I will be able to easily pick out at least 5-6 movies that you should watch, and only maybe 1 or 2 games. That's the kind of ratio that I'm speaking of instead of trying to compare modern video games with 4000 year old books like that should make any goddamned sense somehow. What matters here is what's been happening in the entertainment industry in RECENT years, get it?

 

[hyperbertha]

Do you have a single shred of evidence to back up that claim?

Not that it matters anyway because I can go over a basic list of mainstream movies and games that came out just last year, and when you compare them in terms of quality of storytelling then I will be able to easily pick out at least 5-6 movies that you should watch, and only maybe 1 or 2 games. That's the kind of ratio that I'm speaking of instead of trying to compare modern video games with 4000 year old books like that should make any goddamned sense somehow. What matters here is what's been happening in the entertainment industry in RECENT years, get it?

Compare a list of novels of all time and videogames of all time. You'll find novels vastly outnumber games. I don't need to bring evidence to something so easily verifiable.
Also your opinion kinda invalidated when u said civil war had a good story. The worst final fantasy (15) shreds any Marvel trash.

 

[Drizzlehell]

Compare a list of novels of all time and videogames of all time. You'll find novels vastly outnumber games. I don't need to bring evidence to something so easily verifiable.
Also your opinion kinda invalidated when u said civil war had a good story. The worst final fantasy (15) shreds any Marvel trash.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

I wish devs would tell stories more like Nintendo used to in the Zelda franchise (OoT, Majora's, Wind Waker and TP). There was so much creativity, symbolism and subtext in those games. It's sad that Nintendo has gotten so much more cookie cutter and child friendly with everything they put out.

I wish Jrpg's would return to the excellent story tell8ng they had during ps1 and ps2 eras. Dialogue was so much better in general back then too.

 

[fart town usa]

It's a delicate balance for sure and this isn't a knock against TLOU or GOW, but I'll take something like Devil's Third any day over melodrama. I just have no interest in game stories that try to be heavy/meaningful. Just comes off as cringe to me. I even just about lost it while playing SH2 the other week. Mary reading the letter at the end of the game, I'm like "for the love of God, just get to the point!!!" I can't stand it, lol.

Modern JRPGs are pretty insufferable as well for me. Unless it's DQ cause that's just goofy whimsical stuff for the most part.

I'm not cynical either, I just don't really get escapism from grief porn. Not my type of entertainment. Not knocking any of the above games, just my personal opinion.

 

[Gambit2483]

I'm not sure story was ever that important to me. I just want it to be serviceable. Stories these days feel too layered and convoluted, like they are trying so hard to make something deep and impactful, but I'm just skipping cutscenes by the end. Same with graphics, as long as they are decent then I'm happy.

Fun gameplay and great feeling controls are far more important to me these days.

I have a feeling you wouldn't like the Metal Gear Solid or Kingdom Hearts series....

 

[Scotty W]

One thing this thread makes clear is our total cultural impoverishment.

Everyone is thinking from the blockbuster film perspective. Your idea of a good story is of a surface with no depth which is entertaining to watch. Your idea of depth is actually hidden surfaces: references, secrets, business deals, cut beta content and so on; the “Mario 3 is actually a stage play” or “Luke Skywalker is actually the son of Darth Vader” variety.

Simply being endlessly replayable or rewatchable does not equal depth. That is fine. Blockbusters are entertaining. As games exist at the moment, it is unlikely that this will change.

A good, blockbuster story is extraneous to a good game. They sit together, but the connection is superficial. Games require action, depth requires meditation. Games require that a narrative be driven forward to the end. Games require that you be entertained.

You could do, say The Iliad as a game. But there is too much talking, too much that can’t be gamified. Conversely, making the action scenes into a game actually cheapens the action: You play through the scene several times and come to one, or one of several predetermined outcomes which drive the narrative forward. This is the illusion of control over a surface level narrative.

One of the features of great literature, is being endlessly interpretable. Now I am not necessarily talking about an infinite number of equally valid interpretations, which I regard as pomo nonsense intended to lock you out of meaning, but about being able enter into a meditative state and endlessly figure a work out, without ever reaching the bottom. Most people never experience this. Hence your cultural impoverishment.

 

[Corndog]

Caring about story in video game is dumb. Just give me great gameplay, visuals and characters that are not insufferable.

Some people play games primarily for story. If you don’t like that aspect, just don’t buy those games. There are plenty that have nearly no story at all.

 

[SHA]

The first one is that most video game writing ranges from generic to bad, with extremely rare cases of something that's actually worth your time.

And the second is that it takes far too long to get to any meaningful story beats so if you're looking to engage in a a game primarily for its story, then usually you have to wade through a lot of mind-numbingly boring grind called "gameplay".

Now, to break down those two reasons a little bit, let's look at the first part of my argument - the bad writing. Maybe I'm just not playing the right kind of games but I swear, I can't remember any brand new game that I picked up in the last 3 to 5 years that wasn't a remake or a remaster and it would have a truly engaging and memorable storyline. Most of it is either severely lackluster or just painfully generic and forgettable. And when I write "good story", I really mean it. Try to find me a fucking Goodfellas of video games in terms of writing and execution of the story, and I will kiss you because I would love to play that game. The closest comparison that I can think of right now is perhaps Mafia, however, you need to remember that 1) Mafia was a remake of game that was already praised for the quality of its storytelling (but not so much for its gameplay), 2) it's still nowhere near as good as even the most lacking Scorsese films. So there you go, storytelling in vast majority of video games tends to be severely underwhelming, at least for me.

Now, that's not to say that there aren't any games that tell a decent story. I could think of a few examples from recent years that I could give some praise to. But the problem in most of those cases is that it takes far, FAR too long to actually get to the good parts, to the point where you almost wish you could just watch a movie or a TV show based on these ideas instead. Which ironically is exactly what happened recently with The Last of Us TV show. I've been putting off replaying the game (specifically it's remaster/remake) because I just didn't want to wade through hours of mediocre stealth gameplay just to watch a couple of cutscenes that are the actual highlight of the whole experience. Therefore, I was delighted that I could just watch this new adaptation instead, and finally enjoy the story in a proper live action format. I realize that this makes me sound like I just hate gaming but that's not the case at all. I just grew to dislike games that pretend to be movies. And, at the same time, I enjoy games that are actual games. You know, ones that have good and engaging gameplay and utilize the medium's unique strengths to tell a story in an interactive (and not cinematic) way. Or, you know, just provide me with a playground to be the hero of my own stories instead, which is what video games should be doing. I mean, dude, on most days when I get off work and want to zone out, I usually spend a few hours flying a space ship around the galaxy in Elite Dangerous, which for most passive observers would seem like the most boring thing in the universe, but I find it enthralling just because it's my story in this unpredictable virtual world. However, if I decide to sit down and engage in a game that sells itself as this incredible gem of video game storytelling, and then I end up mashing buttons for 3 hours and actually start thinking about doing laundry just as I reach the next boring expository cutscene starring planks of wood as main characters, then I generally start to question the tastes of modern audiences who think that this shit is any good.

Find another hobby, it sucks when you become a fan of something and ask for more or something similar which rarely solves the problem, finding another hobby is a lot easier or at least get along with all kinds of games, PC should be in the list cause it's the most ideal platform for the variety of choices you can get.