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Why is Witcher considered an RPG and not Horizon?

So, I’ve played a lot of rpgs in my life, western, japanese, Crpg’s, tactical rpgs….etc it seemed like for a long time if it wasn’t turn based it just wasn’t an rpg. Now it’s like every game is rpg-lite, even god of war could really be considered an RPG if you wanted.

Now witcher 3, great game, epic sprawling adventure. But what really makes it an RPG? You have a set character, mostly a set story with some choices here and there, (the big choices don’t come until the last 5 hours of the game), you get your magic, your melee, your gear…etc almost the same as Horizon. Both games almost follow the same gameplay loop. Main quest, side quest, hunts, level up, gear up, rinse and repeat.

I bring this up because i saw a post of Parris xbox games refer to it as an rpg and people lose their minds.



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It’s almost the same level of stat customization between games. I almost feel like the fact that horizon has better combat and enemies than the witcher is what keeps people from wanting to call it an rpg. I also never hear anyone say, “witcher isn’t really an rpg is an action rpg or adventure game with lite rpg mechanics”, like they do the former.

Assassins Creed Valhalla won best RPG at PCGamer in 2020. Is that an rpg?
 
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Utherellus

Member
People. Neither Witcher, especially nor Horizon are RPG games.

They are action games with RPG >ELEMENTS<


Role Playing Game. You create your character almost entirely. Your backstory. Starting skill attributes. Class. Race, subrace. etc.

Pillars of Eternity is RPG
Elder Scrolls is RPG
Divinity/Baldur's Gate are RPG
Even Cyberpunk is RPG

Witcher has RPG elements. And not a shallow one tbf.
And Horizon..... has very basic coverage of the definition mentioned above.
 
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EDMIX

Member
People. Neither Witcher, especially nor Horizon are RPG games.

They are action games with RPG >ELEMENTS<


Role Playing Game. You create your character almost entirely. Your backstory. Starting skill attributes. Class. Race, subrace. etc.

Pillars of Eternity is RPG
Elder Scrolls is RPG
Divinity/Baldur's Gate are RPG
Even Cyberpunk is RPG

Witcher has RPG elements. And not a shallow one tbf.
And Horizon..... has very basic coverage of the definition mentioned above.

Agreed.

I'd even got as far as to say from Witcher 1-3 the series slowly become less and less of an RPG.

James Sawyer Ford James Sawyer Ford lol fucking yessssssss! Thats my favorite one. It MUST play like shit to be an RPG, no fun must be had with the combat at all. We need to put that as some bullet point on the box. Be like "combat is weak as it should be, cumbersome, laggy, bad animations...just as an RPG is made to be"
 
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Fredrik

Member
People. Neither Witcher, especially nor Horizon are RPG games.

They are action games with RPG >ELEMENTS<


Role Playing Game. You create your character almost entirely. Your backstory. Starting skill attributes. Class. Race, subrace. etc.

Pillars of Eternity is RPG
Elder Scrolls is RPG
Divinity/Baldur's Gate are RPG
Even Cyberpunk is RPG

Witcher has RPG elements. And not a shallow one tbf.
And Horizon..... has very basic coverage of the definition mentioned above.
Kinda agree. If you can’t role play it isn’t a role playing game.

Japanese RPGs are making things complicated though. Is Final Fantasy 7 a role playing game? You can’t create your own character, it’s super linear and nothing you do change the story. Where is the role playing? 🤔

I try to not think much about it tbh, I just think detailed stats is important as well, the deeper the nitty gritty stats are the closer to a proper RPG it is. And The Witcher is deep there and is also deeper than most real RPGs when it comes to how your choices matter, so even though you don’t create you own Geralt and starter class/race etc it’s still very close to be a proper RPG.
 
People. Neither Witcher, especially nor Horizon are RPG games.

They are action games with RPG >ELEMENTS<


Role Playing Game. You create your character almost entirely. Your backstory. Starting skill attributes. Class. Race, subrace. etc.

Pillars of Eternity is RPG
Elder Scrolls is RPG
Divinity/Baldur's Gate are RPG
Even Cyberpunk is RPG

Witcher has RPG elements. And not a shallow one tbf.
And Horizon..... has very basic coverage of the definition mentioned above.

So is final fantasy not an rpg?
 
There are many styles of RPG. This one is aiming to be a really cinematic, focused RPG, hence controlling where you can climb and can't climb. It sounds to me like it has earned its RPG routes, and has just made certain the action to go with it is really badass and cool looking.
 
People. Neither Witcher, especially nor Horizon are RPG games.

They are action games with RPG >ELEMENTS<


Role Playing Game. You create your character almost entirely. Your backstory. Starting skill attributes. Class. Race, subrace. etc.

Pillars of Eternity is RPG
Elder Scrolls is RPG
Divinity/Baldur's Gate are RPG
Even Cyberpunk is RPG

Witcher has RPG elements. And not a shallow one tbf.
And Horizon..... has very basic coverage of the definition mentioned above.
So most JRPGs aren’t really RPGs?
 
People. Neither Witcher, especially nor Horizon are RPG games.

They are action games with RPG >ELEMENTS<


Role Playing Game. You create your character almost entirely. Your backstory. Starting skill attributes. Class. Race, subrace. etc.

Pillars of Eternity is RPG
Elder Scrolls is RPG
Divinity/Baldur's Gate are RPG
Even Cyberpunk is RPG

Witcher has RPG elements. And not a shallow one tbf.
And Horizon..... has very basic coverage of the definition mentioned above.

Just because you have a predefined character does not make it less of an RPG. While its true that baldurs gate or fallout 1 or the rest of your examples are more rpg in the classical sense, Witcher 3 is a modern rpg. Cyberpunk in no way shape or form is an RPG, at least no more than Witcher 3 is.
 

packy34

Member
So most JRPGs aren’t really RPGs?
Correct. What role are you playing in a JRPG? The games are almost entirely scripted. Same is true for most modern WRPGs. It is very difficult to translate the mechanics of what a "real" RPG is to the video game medium because the core of role playing is essentially total freedom. It's hard to build a satisfying game that allows the player do whatever they want while shaping the narrative at the same time.
 
Correct. What role are you playing in a JRPG? The games are almost entirely scripted. Same is true for most modern WRPGs. It is very difficult to translate the mechanics of what a "real" RPG is to the video game medium because the core of role playing is essentially total freedom. It's hard to build a satisfying game that allows the player do whatever they want while shaping the narrative at the same time.
If your definition of RPG fails to capture games that are clearly RPGs, it’s probably time to reconsider your definition

Your gate keeping is bizarre
 

Utherellus

Member
Just because you have a predefined character does not make it less of an RPG. While its true that baldurs gate or fallout 1 or the rest of your examples are more rpg in the classical sense, Witcher 3 is a modern rpg. Cyberpunk in no way shape or form is an RPG, at least no more than Witcher 3 is.
You are right. But Cyberpunk falls more into RPG space than nowadays' "RPG" games with 3 branches of skill tree and Level bar.
 

bender

What time is it?
pretty sure I didn't say that was the only requirement, but go off i guess. you sure owned me

Who is trying to own you? You can name any video game you consider a "real" RPG and I can pick it apart using arbitrary standards.
 
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packy34

Member
Who is trying to own you? You can name any video game you consider a "real" RPG and I can pick it apart using arbitrary standards.
There are very few - possibly even zero - video games that I would consider "real" RPGs. I consider JRPGs and WRPGs their own sub-genres with their own appropriate mechanical requirements. We can talk about those if you want. (For the record - HZD isn't a WRPG, it's an action-adventure game with light RPG elements.)


At the end of the day, the games still are what they are, no matter what label they wear, and whining about " gate keeping" genre tags doesn't change anything about the experiences themselves.
 
There are very few - possibly even zero - video games that I would consider "real" RPGs. I consider JRPGs and WRPGs their own sub-genres with their own appropriate mechanical requirements. We can talk about those if you want. (For the record - HZD isn't a WRPG, it's an action-adventure game with light RPG elements.)


At the end of the day, the games still are what they are, no matter what label they wear, and whining about " gate keeping" genre tags doesn't change anything about the experiences themselves.

I feel like this takes a lot of effort to not use a pretty basic genre term to describe a game. The only reason you’re doing it is because you must feel some sort of protectiveness over it
 

bender

What time is it?
There are very few - possibly even zero - video games that I would consider "real" RPGs.

I'd say you are being far too rigid then.

And speaking of rigid, if your expectation of an RPG is to simulate a tabletop experience, that's impossible. Games play by hard and fast rules with everything predefined. Even the most well prepared DM usually has to pivot within minutes because of the chaotic nature of their players.
 

packy34

Member
I feel like this takes a lot of effort to not use a pretty basic genre term to describe a game. The only reason you’re doing it is because you must feel some sort of protectiveness over it
Eh. I understand how you can see it that way. I grew up with tabletop, and the term "role-playing", to me, actually means something. I know why things are the way they are with video games but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. As stated in my post, I don't think something is any better or worse for having the RPG tag or not. Not sure why it matters to others or how HZD possibly being called a RPG changes anything about the game.
 

Rykan

Member
That's absolutely a criteria for original Role Playing Game experience, originated from tabletops, transitioning into video game space.
You're applying the criteria for tabletop games onto video games. Video game RPGs are based on tabletop games but they are not a one to one replica and they do not share the exact same criteria. We have a different criteria for RPGs when it comes to video game and anyone denying that franchises like Final Fantasy, DragonQuest or the Witcher are RPGs will find themselves screaming from an Island all by themselves.
 

Fredrik

Member
Cyberpunk in no way shape or form is an RPG, at least no more than Witcher 3 is.
Not true. You may not fully create your own character in Cyberpunk 2077, no matter if you’re a man or woman or something in between you’re always going to be named V and have roughly the same story, but you have a lot more starter choices compared to The Witcher 3 where you’re just thrown into a preset character with his preset background.
 

Bernkastel

Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Its sad that people call upgrade elements on your gear "RPG elements" and associate that with RPG.You have to play a "role", live that role and create the story of your character. This can be either through an empty shell that you make through character creator and self insert as like the Dragonborn in Skyrim or the Witcher in Witcher series where the you choose and play the story as the Witcher by making choices that drastically change the story. Assassins Creed is not a RPG. I am actually being generous here regarding the Witcher.
Waiting for Codex specialists to comment on the matter

shredder.png
RPG codex forum members would have a stroke if they found this thread. The moment you are not the protagonist but experiencing the story of someone else's adventure its no longer a "Role Playing Game", its just a adventure game. I applaud Nintendo for never calling Legend of Zelda a RPG, even though it qualifies for that genre more than Assassins Creed. Stop calling Action Adventure Games "RPG".
True answer: they're both bad WRPGs

Seriously, when talking about RPGs i think stuff like Baldurs Gate, Fallout, Divinity, etc. New ACs, Witchers, HZDs, etc; are just adventure games with some rpg elements.
I summon you to this thread.
Correct. What role are you playing in a JRPG? The games are almost entirely scripted. Same is true for most modern WRPGs. It is very difficult to translate the mechanics of what a "real" RPG is to the video game medium because the core of role playing is essentially total freedom. It's hard to build a satisfying game that allows the player do whatever they want while shaping the narrative at the same time.
Fucking this. Most JRPGs are not RPGs.
But,
I am not sure if Dark Souls is an RPG now that I think about it
Soulsborne games are RPGs, even more than Witcher 3. You play as the Choosen Undead, Bearer of Curse, Ashen One etc. and write your story by playing the game. There is no backstory to the protagonists, you make that story. Thankfully, they never promoted Sekiro as a RPG but as an Action-Adventure game.
 
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Not true. You may not fully create your own character in Cyberpunk 2077, no matter if you’re a man or woman or something in between you’re always going to be named V and have roughly the same story, but you have a lot more starter choices compared to The Witcher 3 where you’re just thrown into a preset character with his preset background.

You clearly havent played the game, have you? Spoiler, lifepaths do not matter, nor their existence make the game an rpg.
 

Utherellus

Member
I'd say you are being far too rigid then.

And speaking of rigid, if your expectation of an RPG is to simulate a tabletop experience, that's impossible. Games play by hard and fast rules with everything predefined. Even the most well prepared DM usually has to pivot within minutes because of the chaotic nature of their players.
Noone said videogames should simulate tabletop RPG 1:1

But calling Final Fantasy and Horizon RPG just because they have skill tree, hitpoints and XP, is absurdly inaccurate.
 

Utherellus

Member
Its sad that people call upgrade elements on your gear "RPG elements" and associate that with RPG.You have to play a "role", live that role and create the story of your character. This can be either through an empty shell that you make through character creator and self insert as like the Dragonborn in Skyrim or the Witcher in Witcher series where the you choose and play the story as the Witcher by making choices that drastically change the story. Assassins Creed is not a RPG. I am actually being generous here regarding the Witcher.

RPG codex forum members would have a stroke if they found this thread. The moment you are not the protagonist but experiencing the story of someone else's adventure its no longer a "Role Playing Game", its just a adventure game. I applaud Nintendo for never calling Legend of Zelda a RPG, even though it qualifies for that genre more than Assassins Creed. Stop calling Action Adventure Games "RPG".

100%


When developer gives you pre-baked character, that's it, RPG definition is already out of the equation.
 

TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
I mean, it's an RPG in much the same way as Final Fantasy VII is an SRPG because of Fort Condor. Or MGS4 is a mech game because of the RAY battle. Or Kingdom Hearts is a space shooter based on the Gummi ship. I mean, in homogenized AAA environments (not necessarily saying this is good or bad) the main idea is to appeal to as many different flavors of gameplay as you can without going too far in any one direction and alienating people. It's why everything has RPG elements, why Resident Evil became a third person shooter, why most single player games are open world, etc.
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
RPG is more about the story choices maybe ?
Stats alone dont make an rpg.

I am not sure if Dark Souls is an RPG now that I think about it
 
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