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Women And Sexuality In Gaming (Kotaku/Dragon's Crown Thoughts And More)

Women And Sexuality In Gaming

In case you missed it, a blogger over at Kotaku has taken Vanillaware designer George Kamitani to task over the sorceress character featured in the game because of her ridiculously large and unrealistically bouncy breasts. Predating that, YouTube vlogger/activist Anita Sarkeesian recently published a video series on female tropes in video games. This has given many a platform to talk about how gaming is a horribly immature pastime and that all female video game characters are giant breasted, hyper-sexual bimbos that only serve to play out the childish fantasies of the male audience.

This is certainly true of some characters and properties, but I also can’t help but think about the other side of that coin that is so often ignored: the more realistic, stronger, and sometimes even more modest female characters.

The go to example of this is often Alyx Vance of Half-Life 2 fame (she’s also in the running for best video game companion ever) and some even remember Jade from Beyond Good & Evil. Both characters are capable, realistic, and not oversexualized. Usually the first example I can think of is galactic bounty hunter Samus Aran who may just be the most dangerous woman in the universe. Meryl Silverburgh from Metal Gear Solid is another favorite of mine. She spends most of MGS4 babysitting her bowel-issue ridden, nearly impotent male partner while simultaneously taking down elite squads of cutthroat soldiers. Lucca from Chrono Trigger is a genius inventor, highly intelligent, and no slouch with a pistol.

More recently we got Chell from Portal and despite being somewhat “sexed up” for the higher-profile sequel she was still a far cry from the Mai Shiranui’s of the gaming world. What about Jill Valentine and Claire Redfield from the first two Resident Evil games? Women who overcame great adversity with brains, grit and without exposed 38DDs. Or, speaking of Resident Evil, Sheva freakin’ Alomar: a woman so badass that she held her own beside a hulked-out Chris Redfield. Also in the horror genre, we have Heather Mason who didn’t ask for any of what happened to her, but was able to pull through anyway along with Aya Brea from Parasite Even who was uniquely equipped to deal with her situation and didn’t need any men to fight her battles for her. What about Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite?

She takes care of herself for the most part and protagonist Booker DeWitt literally cannot progress in the game without her help. Not to mention the fact that she’s constantly saving your skin. Makoto from Street Fighter, a series packed to the brim with giant-chested, impossibly beautiful, and barely clothed female fighters is rather average looking in comparison and wears a modest karate gi. She also spends most of her time punching men in the crotch…

Who remembers Faith from Mirror’s Edge? Athletic, capable, and no cleavage. Ashe from Final Fantasy XII deserves mention in this category as well since she’s the “true” main character of FFXII in addition to being strong-willed and independent. She also, ironically, has more clothing than Vaan who is pretty much shirtless throughout the entire game.


Of course, not all scantily clad female characters are flat, one-dimensional sex dolls either. Bayonetta turns out to be a pretty interesting character in addition to dispatching angels in incredibly sexy and violent ways. Lara Croft fits in this category as well since the series has largely “grown up”. Juliet from Lollipop Chainsaw may seem trite at first, but consider the fact that she saws through zombies like a chainsaw through butter and carries around her boyfriend as, essentially, an emasculated fashion accessory. Tifa Lockhart does have unnecessarily large breasts, but she’s also a compelling character and probably possesses the most raw fighting ability of the group since she fights hand-to-hand. Does her provocative appearance diminish her? I don’t think so.

I’ll concede that there are many female video game characters that serve no other purpose than to just look pretty. I’m not arguing that gaming is completely egalitarian. However, if you’re willing to look, there are plenty of great female characters that are not just eye candy. There’s also plenty that are eye candy, but possess other qualities that make them interesting and unique. There’s also much to be said about the way male characters are portrayed in gaming. Many male characters are portrayed as overly macho and tremendously muscular meat heads who lack any degree of nuance or depth and solve every problem they have by punching it or blowing it up. There’s also the Homer Simpson-style idiot male character that is barely intelligent enough to function properly. Steiner from Final Fantasy IX is a perfect example of this trope. He’s well-meaning, but his foolhardiness and lack of proper social skills constantly get him into trouble.

In conclusion, I think it’s important to realize that the characters that populate our fiction are often idealized a great deal. That’s why the vast majority of heroes and heroines across all mediums are beautiful, suave, and cool. Of course, it’s also important to note that video games ARE indeed fantasy. All fiction is. There are those among us who enjoy that type of escapism and fantasy for what it is. In regard to Dragon’s Crown specifically, all of its characters literally are tropes: the heavily armored Fighter, the stout and strong Dwarf, the bow wielding Elf, the muscular and powerful Amazon, the mysterious Wizard, and the dark and sexy Sorceress: all established fantasy archetypes. It seems ridiculous to me to criticize tropes for being tropes. Ultimately, you can vote with your wallet. Reward the developers that make the kind of games you like with your business and perhaps they’ll make more of them. I would recommend buying the HD version of Beyond Good & Evil. In addition to being a really great game, its protagonist Jade is everything you probably want in a video game heroine. Game developers make products for a market after all.



What do you think? Is it acceptable to portray women/men in a certain way simply due to video games being fantasy? Do developers and publishers hold a responsibility for not designing stereotypical characters (e.g., women with large breasts, men with chizzled pecs, women who are submissive, men who are dude bro)? Or should we all just move the fuck on and realize that games are games and we shouldn't take them so serious?

What say you?
 

JordanN

Banned
Reposting my thoughts from the Dragon's Crown thread.

To me, it was never about just sexuality. In fact, just leaving alone sexuality doesn't actually fix the situation at hand (i.e women in games).

Instead, it was people just attacking character designs and nothing else.

I think it all comes down to reception. Developers need to know sexualized character isn't always the way to go or what the market wants.

Now, having disapproval is a good start. What went wrong is when "games journalism" turned it into an all out attack on an artist by branding them something they're not (without good evidence).

Something like "big boobs seriously? Do we need more of this in games?" would have been an appropriate response instead of "BIG BOOBS? WHAT ARE YOU? A 14 YEAR OLD? YOU MUST ALSO USE DRAWINGS TO HATE WOMEN TOO. LOL".

Attractive characters are not the problem. But having more characters that are attractive and empowered (or just empowered) is better.
 
this is my kind of thread


The problem isn't characters being sexy or whatsoever, the problem is when they are just there to be sexy. Character should have a meaning and purpose in a story, it might be a small role or a big one, just don't make it shameless pandering for sales
 

Dylan

Member
Let people express their own art. If you don't like what other people are doing then just create something of your own.


Anyway the best games of each gen traditionally do not hypersexualize characters (Mario Bros, Dark Souls, Bionic Commando, Castlevania, Daytona USA, Persona, etc.) Even Goldeneye was based on a movie where every character is an oversexualized stereotype but the game managed to avoid it entirely.


The people who complain about sexuality in video games remind me of the PMRC's objection to foul language in rock/rap music.
 

Amneisac

Member
Developers should make whatever kind of games they want, and people are completely within their rights to protest the games / not buy them.
 
this is my kind of thread


The problem isn't characters being sexy or whatsoever, the problem is when they are just there to be sexy. Make characters have meaning in the story

So if the characters had meaning but had EEE breasts popping out would that be more acceptable? I'm not being sarcastic btw.
 

kazebyaka

Banned
The way i see it: Majority of gamers are men. Majority of men like women. Sexualised women are nice to the eye. Pretty girls can sell more copies. The end. Is there a problem in this? Maybe. But i like sexualized women in media, so why not. There's plenty of normal people outside of imagination. But i wouldn't mind less huge boobs and more flat chests though.
 

Venin

Member
Different cultures, different beliefs. There are Tribes all over the world who don't believe in clothing (NSFW Link). Nudity or near-nudity is not always a bad thing, and may even make more sense to some people than it does to other people.

That's not to say females are not sexualized in video games, because we have stupid, pointless games like DoA Beach Volleyball, etc. But I believe people take nudity much too seriously at times, even when the nudity makes sense.

Also, I hate these kinds of threads, and I hate those kinds of articles. I don't like that they're even a thing. But unfortunately there are a lot of immature people who eat that stuff up.
 

big_erk

Member
Anyway the best games of each gen traditionally do not hypersexualize characters (Mario Bros, Dark Souls, Bionic Commando, Castlevania, Daytona USA, Persona, etc. Even Goldeneye was based on a movie where every character is an oversexualized stereotype but the game managed to avoid it entirely.

mario.jpg


I don't know man, Sexy Mario is pretty sexy.
 
-Kotaku stance is idiotic
-Nothing wrong with dragon crown design

I feel like i've already seen this before !!

Also : Yes you can protrait anything you want as long as it's not offensive , even women ... and in video games there are women done well
 

Kokonoe

Banned
Attractive (which is subjective) characters are fine, it has nothing to do with that. It's the characters that lack clothing in scenarios where the only purpose is eye candy (objectification), tight clothing around areas that wouldn't make sense for the purpose before, and personalities that portray negative stereotypes in a consistent basis like the weak and helpless woman.

This goes for both women and men, but the objectification of women happens at such an alarming amount over all types of media and society it gets sickening. The easy solution would be to make less generic negative stereotypical characters, and it doesn't require that much creativity to do so either. Diversity is good, not bad.
 

NotLiquid

Member
this is my kind of thread


The problem isn't characters being sexy or whatsoever, the problem is when they are just there to be sexy. Character should have a meaning and purpose in a story, it might be a small role or a big one, just don't make it shameless pandering for sales

Thank you.

A lot of female characters exist that show signs of being sexy yet still exhibit a lot of interesting character. Lotus from 999 and Bayonetta are some off the top of my head.

Speaking as a person who loves designing and drawing, I just like to think that a lot of designers just like to design things that they perceive as cool and interesting. Just cause Dragon's Crown has a bad case of Gainaxing and looks rather ridiculous doesn't mean the designer has the mind of a teenager, it's just his style. As long as the character isn't crazily objectified I have no problem. Of course I haven't played Dragon's Crown so I wouldn't be able to judge how the characters are treated.
 

Dylan

Member
I don't know a whole lot about the plot of Dragon's Crown but it strikes me to be a game quite similar to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles The Arcade Game. Perhaps there would be less controversy if Dragon's Crown swapped the witch with a mutant crime fighting turtle, but then of course the communists will have won.
 

10101

Gold Member
Is it any different to film and TV? I mean there are plenty of sexy actresses and I don't hear anyone complaining too much about that as there are equally lots of buff blokes. Are there more sexy female characters in games? Probably but then the audience is more male centric.

I don't see it as much of a problem personally, it comes down to choice I think. If you feel offended by a game / film / TV show / book / musician / whatever then you can quite easily ignore it. Should they not exist for those that enjoy it because of that? No IMO people should be free to choose what they like.
 

Ikael

Member
Very spot on article, the whole fixation with the looks and "holier than thou" attitude dampens a discussion among the industry that would be productive otherwise. Also, I find the whole decry of sexualized characters as being inherently sexist or worth of public shaming to be a puritanical as fuck attitude. Sexualization is never bad per se, and I certainly didn't have any qualm with characters designed to be desired by the opposite sex such as Bayonetta or Dante. Lazy and incompetent characterization is the enemy, not D-Cups or prettyboys.
 

Amneisac

Member
Look at the evolution of a character like Cortana
fbeea9efbd3a72eb118bec7994719c15-cortana-changes.jpg
.

To me, this is the pinnacle of bullshit in gaming. Yes, women have breasts, but no way does this make sense in the context. This, to me, is an example of what's wrong with the way women are portrayed in games as much as Dragon's Crown.

It's like Pamela Anderson popping up in your Word 2000 asking if you meant to indent that paragraph instead of that fucking paperclip.
 

Carcetti

Member
yeah, Every character could have Sorceress boobs if the developers want, it's their choice as 'artists'.

if you don't like it, don't buy it.

Fixed that for you.

Do developers and publishers hold a responsibility for not designing stereotypical characters (e.g., women with large breasts, men with chizzled pecs, women who are submissive, men who are dude bro)?

Of course there's no responsibility but it would sure be nice if everyone wasn't regurgitating trash for mental 12-year olds.

If people want to produce crap, they can be called out on their crap. SMH at 'discussions should end'.
 
Oh look, another article and thread about this.



The discussion should really end here.

The question is do publishers and developers have a responsibility that goes beyond just putting out a working product.

It's akin to Charles Barkley back in the 1990s putting out that commercial that stated he isn't a hero or role model for kids, that parents should be. As much as that is true, professional athletes are looked up to by children and have a responsibility to not act like total assholes on the court. Do publishers and developers hold a similar responsibility in putting out products that don't perpetuate stereotypes that can damage a particular group of people.
 
I really hate this "debate."

Fact: Most gamers are male.
Fact: Men will spend their money on products with sexualized portrayals of women.

It's supply and demand. They wouldn't make it if people didn't buy it, so why should you fault the devs? It's not like video games are the only medium that does this.

l9wqN5K.jpg
pgEL2Y4.jpg
wOgWVb9.jpg


Guess what? People buy it. That's the world we live in, and no amount of pretending it's not will change it. Until dudes stop spending their money on this shit it will continue to be made. Those movies probably sold more copies than Dragon's Crown will.

We fought for years against video game censorship and to apply the same standards to games that are applied to movies. We won. This is what that future looks like.

dealwithit.gif
 

big_erk

Member
Seriously, sex in art has always existed. Just because an artists vision contains elements of sexuality doesn't make it obscene. When we start dictating to artists what they can or can't do in their art we are going down a slippery slope of censorship. Dragon's Crown art is at least unique and represents the vision of the artist. I respect his vision. Whether or not this style of art is for you is for you to decide. But no one has the right to tell him he needs to change his art to suit some imaginary code of videogame decency.

For those who don't know how sexual real art can be, look up some of the works of Rodin.
 

hteng

Banned
dont ever take away sexuality in games

and the sorceress isn't some trophy item that needs saving, she kicks ass and makes it look awesome.
 

Amneisac

Member
I really hate this "debate."

Fact: Most gamers are male.
Fact: Men will spend their money on products with sexualized portrayals of women.

It's supply and demand. They wouldn't make it if people didn't buy it, so why should you fault the devs? It's not like video games are the only medium that does this.

Guess what? People buy it. That's the world we live in, and no amount of pretending it's not will change it. Until dudes stop spending their money on this shit it will continue to be made.

We fought for years against video game censorship and to apply the same standards to games that are applied to movies. We won. This is what that future looks like.

dealwithit.gif

I don't see what a bunch of weird softcore niche movies have to do with it. To me the issue isn't as much about games like Dragon's Crown existing, as much as how COMPLETELY PERVASIVE the sexualization of women is in all games (see my above Halo example).
 

Demon Ice

Banned
Sex sells. That's really all there is to it. Plenty of games with extremely muscular and attractive male characters too. I don't see the issue. Fantasy is fantasy. Some examples are more blatant and idiotic than others (See: Halo 4 Cortana posted above) but I'm not surprised in the slightest.
 

Kimawolf

Member
The question is do publishers and developers have a responsibility that goes beyond just putting out a working product.

It's akin to Charles Barkley back in the 1990s putting out that commercial that stated he isn't a hero or role model for kids, that parents should be. As much as that is true, professional athletes are looked up to by children and have a responsibility to not act like total assholes on the court. Do publishers and developers hold a similar responsibility in putting out products that don't perpetuate stereotypes that can damage a particular group of people.

yes, they do.

I can guarantee they'd not put out a game with a "Mr. Popo" like black character. I am sure a game will be just as fun if said female character has DDs instead of Triple Es or whatever.
 

Dylan

Member
I don't see what a bunch of weird softcore niche movies have to do with it. To me the issue isn't as much about games like Dragon's Crown existing, as much as how COMPLETELY PERVASIVE the sexualization of women is in all games (see my above Halo example).

So should they take away the gun from Master Chief too? It really is making him look like a testosterone-filled Rambo type character.
 

Taruranto

Member
I really don't understand people issue with the "damsel in distress" trope. I mean, i kinda do, but it's not like putting a female character in need of rescue necessarily mean women are weak and need to be rescued all the time. Sometime people are trapped in situations and they need help to get out. It's not necessarily a statement about women being weak.

More recently we got Chell from Portal and despite being somewhat “sexed up” for the higher-profile sequel she was still a far cry from the Mai Shiranui’s of the gaming world. What about Jill Valentine and Claire Redfield from the first two Resident Evil games? Women who overcame great adversity with brains, grit and without exposed 38DDs. Or, speaking of Resident Evil, Sheva freakin’ Alomar: a woman so badass that she held her own beside a hulked-out Chris Redfield. Also in the horror genre, we have Heather Mason who didn’t ask for any of what happened to her, but was able to pull through anyway along with Aya Brea from Parasite Even who was uniquely equipped to deal with her situation and didn’t need any men to fight her battles for her. What about Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite?

The entire horror genre has a plethora of strong female characters. Hell, Rule of Rose may be the most feminist game ever.
 

akira28

Member
Pervasive is the wrong word. It's a goddman gimmick and anyone with half a brain knows and feels that way...after the initial bout of sexual manipulation by the designers.

I didn't like the new design for Halo holographic girl. I liked the first one best, but yes, breasts sell things. Square jaws, broad shoulders and big hands sell things too. Maybe we should create a new paradigm where we're not always trying every angle to make a buck, and you'll see less gratuitous boobage.
 
Look at the evolution of a character like Cortana
fbeea9efbd3a72eb118bec7994719c15-cortana-changes.jpg
.

To me, this is the pinnacle of bullshit in gaming. Yes, women have breasts, but no way does this make sense in the context. This, to me, is an example of what's wrong with the way women are portrayed in games as much as Dragon's Crown.

It's like Pamela Anderson popping up in your Word 2000 asking if you meant to indent that paragraph instead of that fucking paperclip.

they made her barefoot in 4, sold me on it.


also just put guys running around in nothing but a banana hammock. Sexualized absurdity for everyone!
 

Amneisac

Member
I know I'm gonna blow your mind with this, but Dragon's Crown is a weird softcore niche game.

I don't see what a bunch of weird softcore niche movies have to do with it. To me the issue isn't as much about games like Dragon's Crown existing, as much as how COMPLETELY PERVASIVE the sexualization of women is in all games (see my above Halo example).

Read the entire quote I posted this time.
 

Amneisac

Member
Enough with the hyperbole. It's not all games. Saying so just makes people not take the actual matter seriously.

Fair enough in the sense that not even all games have women in them. I shouldn't have exaggerated, fact remains that a very large majority of women in games are hypersexualized.
 

Dusk Golem

A 21st Century Rockefeller
As I said in that 'GTFO Kickstarter' thread:

I long for the day that women are treated like human beings in the industry more commonly, there's not such a social stigma around girls who like video games (not 'girl gamers', just girls who play or like games, which shouldn't be surprising to anyone anymore. Hell, as a random example, I and other bigger gaming LP'ers on YouTube can attest that our viewership is a higher percentage women than men), and that we can stop hearing about it/having people cash in on it all the time.

It's a serious issue, but I feel this has to be solved more directly than this sort of going-around-in-circles mentality that seems to be going on about it.



HOWEVER, I think sexuality has a place, and sexualization of both men and women is not a bad thing. I do think if it's done in most creations of a medium it doesn't send out a good message though, and if it doesn't fit with the themes of the game or feels there to appease and feel out of place. The thing that often gets overlooked is that there is a lot of stereotyping and sexualizing in guys in games as well. I think people just need to come up with better characters and make the judgement of sexualization has a place in the project, or if they're inserting it just to insert it without any real reason.
 

Venin

Member
Look at the evolution of a character like Cortana [Halo] -snipped IMG-

To me, this is the pinnacle of bullshit in gaming. Yes, women have breasts, but no way does this make sense in the context. This, to me, is an example of what's wrong with the way women are portrayed in games as much as Dragon's Crown.

Cortana's Halo 3 design seems to be best, imho. When I think of how the average female human being looks, that is pretty much what I see (as far as bosom is concerned) This is our race; this is what we are. Halo 4 went overboard.

Fact is, the females of the Human race have breasts. Deal with it, people!

The entire horror genre has a plethora of strong female characters. Hell, Rule of Rose may be the most feminist game ever.

I love that game to bits!
 

Dylan

Member
Who will be playing the part of the strawman today, Dylan?

It isn't a strawman argument. You are saying that the depiction of Cortana in Halo 4 is inappropriate, right? But it's a comic book universe through and through. There are purple aliens and giant man-robots with guns. As much as it might disgust you, she fits right into that universe. Actually, the Halo 4 Cortana isn't really all that physiologically excessive in my view. I don't really see the point of giving an AI lifeform a sweater.
 
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