palpabl_purpura
Member
Nope, cuz girls only go for flabby guys. Petition to take Bob out of Tekken, anyone? I find him thoroughly offensive.
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Women And Sexuality In Gaming (Kotaku/Dragon's Crown Thoughts And More)
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
- Start date
Nope, cuz girls only go for flabby guys. Petition to take Bob out of Tekken, anyone? I find him thoroughly offensive.
Again this is about developer intent and not whether any given niche fetish finds the dwarfs toes sexualized.
Two points.
You have a very poor understanding of what women find sexually attractive if you think it's just the clothing and penis bulge.
We have had a shift in what kind of men women like, same as men have changed what they like in women. Fabio (a big muscular hero) was once the male sex symbol but it's shifted, for the most part, to the more ottermode physical form. Two male characters women would find sexually appealing now mostly would be Lucifel and Enoch from El Shaddai, right off the top of my head. Moreso Lucifel. That doesn't mean the people with bigger muscle mass aren't sexualized like back in the Fabio days, but it's most definitely a lot slimmer now than what it used to be.
Here is a better judge of what body parts women look at. I'm sure you and me can find better sources with a bit more work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJHg2HPJPjI
Second, I'm not saying the big muscular guys are sexualized. I'm screwing with you since you put yourself in a good situation and at the same time misunderstood the comment by the person you were responding to. He's saying they're both gross overexaggerations of the body's form and not saying anything of their sexual appeal.
And on Cho Aniki, the game with the two muscular guys, I'm waiting for someone to tell me that gay people don't have the same appeal in men that women do. That's be a fun conversation.
Lust is a sin of the heart after all.
Well that was your (silly) assumption
As a male I tread lightly on this subject because we need female input on the matter as well. And developer input (which we luckily have in this case!). I just hate it when people drop the age old "bu bu bu male heroes are sexualized too!" Line like it ends this issue and makes everything equal, when in fact it's arguable that both the male and female characters cater to male gamers.
Thing is no matter how slutty the character there are more chances for women to play as women then there are me playing as a black character. I'm not saying it's wrong to get up in arms over sexualized characters in gaming but I still see more prominent women speaking up about the lack of women in the profession than I do blacks as well as other minorities. The fact that it's kind of an unspoken confirmation that I'm not the key demographic and I should just play as generic white male bald or otherwise really kills this conversation for me even if I do continue to enjoy the hobby.
Honesyly you can look in any form of media and sexy females to sell something hasn't bogged down film or music with questions of any other mediums maturity. It's kind of bothered me for awhile that the rise of many social groups have really beat the drum to answer their given slights in gaming while using minorities as an after thought to push their given agendas. I don't want to start any big gaffaw but getting angry because a cartoon woman has big breasts isn't anymore offensive to me than than looking at some starlet in a GQ magazine pose seductively next to a wall of text promoting her recent project or whatever. It isn't any worse than watching heavy metal on Netflix, and doesn't tell me whether a game is good or not.
Honesyly you can look in any form of media and sexy females to sell something hasn't bogged down film or music with questions of any other mediums maturity. It's kind of bothered me for awhile that the rise of many social groups have really beat the drum to answer their given slights in gaming while using minorities as an after thought to push their given agendas. I don't want to start any big gaffaw but getting angry because a cartoon woman has big breasts isn't anymore offensive to me than than looking at some starlet in a GQ magazine pose seductively next to a wall of text promoting her recent project or whatever. It isn't any worse than watching heavy metal on Netflix, and doesn't tell me whether a game is good or not.
To me it's not an excuse that the games are fantasy. The fact is, a lot of children play video games, and I find it totally lacking in consideration for the gaming companies to think they have no responsibility for the attitudes they are transmitting to boys and girls. I usually only play Nintendo games, so I don't see a lot of this, but in recent memory I was offended by Mighty Switch Force and an image of a female flaunting her butt/bust on the V12 table in Zen Pinball 2, especially since both of those games are only rated E10+.
Well that was your (silly) assumption
As a male I tread lightly on this subject because we need female input on the matter as well. And developer input (which we luckily have in this case!). I just hate it when people drop the age old "bu bu bu male heroes are sexualized too!" Line like it ends this issue and makes everything equal, when in fact it's arguable that both the male and female characters cater to male gamers.
I wouldn't tread lightly if there's proof. Waiting for someone to be representative of the group puts a lot of power in their hands which you will have blind faith in. Lucifel and Enoch both have Yaoi made of them (Can you believe it? Two abrahamic characters! I am so telling God on them.) and it's easy to see what women like now by looking at the men sexualized in art of males made to appeal to women. If you left it up to someone to determine the truth for you I don't think they'd rarely ever mention Fabio.
tl;dr Go watch Boko No Pico and bring a notepad.
Hahaha.
But yes, women's gender is praised for their physical form so you will see their physical form praised in different ways more often than male's. The only time I debate this sort of thing is when people try to be authoritarian about it or start talking about objectifying people or groups and that's usually because it usually goes off the deep end quick.
Stricter ESRB when
I spent many hours debating this in the previous thread, that's why I'm not as invested this time around. Not because I want someone else to spell it out for me.
My little sisters always liked the male Final Fantasy characters. Most of the time they shared feminine traits and were built slim with imaginative hairdos. I have never catched a female friend oogling these muscular western hero types in games. Anecdotal evidence sure.
My little sisters always liked the male Final Fantasy characters. Most of the time they shared feminine traits and were built slim with imaginative hairdos. I have never catched a female friend oogling these muscular western hero types in games. Anecdotal evidence sure.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
That is what I would like to know... What would the sexualized male even look like?
Put a sexualized version of a male in a game: scantily clad? An impossible chest? Perhaps the opposite.. Someone svelte and fit, with a dreamy face?
Whatever it is, I don't think it would register as "sexualized" to most people, and I think that's just an inherent fact about the different ways in which men and women are viewed.
And that's why I think humans are so biased in this debate. Red flags go off when a woman's jiggly bits are showing (in the mind of conservatives and feminists alike), but right next to them is an impossible vision of manhood, and no one notices, no one gets offended, and they certainly don't see the sexualization as equal.
Yeah it's a Man's world, and a Man's industry, but no one would notice equal sexualization if it was staring them in the face. This is why the only approach seems to be "let's not sexualize anyone." Which is fine, and it should be done for so many games. But it bothers me that debates about sexualized fantasy seem to constantly critique the female portrayals, and never the males.
Put a sexualized version of a male in a game: scantily clad? An impossible chest? Perhaps the opposite.. Someone svelte and fit, with a dreamy face?
Whatever it is, I don't think it would register as "sexualized" to most people, and I think that's just an inherent fact about the different ways in which men and women are viewed.
And that's why I think humans are so biased in this debate. Red flags go off when a woman's jiggly bits are showing (in the mind of conservatives and feminists alike), but right next to them is an impossible vision of manhood, and no one notices, no one gets offended, and they certainly don't see the sexualization as equal.
Yeah it's a Man's world, and a Man's industry, but no one would notice equal sexualization if it was staring them in the face. This is why the only approach seems to be "let's not sexualize anyone." Which is fine, and it should be done for so many games. But it bothers me that debates about sexualized fantasy seem to constantly critique the female portrayals, and never the males.
That is because the male character is the agent, the hero and the oppressor of all other characters in most cases.
And I disagree that people wouldn't recognize sexualized male characters. Look at the hilarious reactions Vaan from FFXII had on male gamers and he was fairly tasteful still.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Honestly half the time a guy finds another guy character cool, a girl/woman will think so too but trigger the other feelings with it. Now this isn't with every male character guys find cool or every girl/woman in general. But that's one of the ways to think about it.
Honestly the best example of something with equal pandering I can think of is Fairy Tail. It's pretty clear that author has an understanding of both mindsets and how to give to the audience.
Another example is Vaan from FFXII but in a sense he's a pretty shitty one. I would say Baltheir is a better one. But then again that's two different taste.
Balthier seems to resonate well with female fans of the series. Mysterious and cocky characters seem to gather the love of both sexes in many cases. Plus he has an equally dreamy youthful face as Vaan did.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The gender differences are hyper exaggerated to the point of ridiculousness. It's becoming the hallmark of modern AAA gaming. The Dragon's Crown artist had to turn the dial up to 11 just to make his point, because everything else is already at 10.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
In my mind I was thinking about the narrative-irrelevant fighting games, where the characters are literally just avatars. The big-boobed females have been a source of debate ever since Chun Li and Sonya Blade... Yet ripped, bare-chested males abound. No one notices. No one thinks of them as sexual.
Is he really an example of a female ideal for a male? I'd be surprised if anyone saw him that way... That was a train wreck of a design... Not a failure of males to appreciate a "sexualized male".
When I think of a male in video games that women desire, I think of Drake. But the problem is that it's identical to the male power fantasy ideal
which is my point.No one notices the hunk as a sexualized character, but they notice the babe as a sexualized character.
If the traditional male gender role is the warrior/worker/protector then is not but offensive and implying a childish selfishness to call selling the male traditional gender role a 'male power fantasy'?When I think of a male in video games that women desire, I think of Drake. But the problem is that it's identical to the male power fantasy ideal
The longer this debate goes on, the more embarrassing it gets.
The game industry is huge these days. The audience of Dragon's Crown may be 500k worldwide. Who knows. It's not even in the same league as Tomb Raider or Resident Evil, and one single tiny part of the game is coming under the most ridiculous amount of petty criticism, and some people with supposedly level heads claim that this type of art is why the industry is heavily weighted towards men.
It's absolute bollocks.
How about developers make more games for women? How about getting more women involved with focus testing? Maybe if you make more games for women, more women will want to work in games. Or is that logic too shocking for you?
The game industry is huge these days. The audience of Dragon's Crown may be 500k worldwide. Who knows. It's not even in the same league as Tomb Raider or Resident Evil, and one single tiny part of the game is coming under the most ridiculous amount of petty criticism, and some people with supposedly level heads claim that this type of art is why the industry is heavily weighted towards men.
It's absolute bollocks.
How about developers make more games for women? How about getting more women involved with focus testing? Maybe if you make more games for women, more women will want to work in games. Or is that logic too shocking for you?
The dudes in Mortal Kombat usually look like warriors and are dressed appropriately. Then again I don't remember the older games having any controversy about sexuality or objectification because the violence took the full attentio. It was only the 3D games? Where I noticed the bosoms were enlarged to ridiculous levels. My memory is hazy on MK knowledge though
And Drake is a total playboy swinging with different girls (that themselves seem like they were designed to please males, the nerdy one and then the dominant one who lectures Drake about her ass). He's a total bro even paired with an older bro.
And Drake is a total playboy swinging with different girls (that themselves seem like they were designed to please males, the nerdy one and then the dominant one who lectures Drake about her ass). He's a total bro even paired with an older bro.
Is he really an example of a female ideal for a male? I'd be surprised if anyone saw him that way... That was a train wreck of a design... Not a failure of makes to appreciate a "sexualized male".
When I think of a male in video games that women desire, I think of Drake. But the problem is that it's identical to the male power fantasy ideal
No one notices the hunk as a sexualized character, but they notice the babe as a sexualized character.
It is all in how they are portrayed. April and Zoe from the Longest Journey games are beautiful women but are not sexualized. People will find those characters attractive but it isn't due to the developers trying to make them sexy. I feel Drake is the same way.
The characters I believe were made to try to appeal to women are Alistair (Dragon Age), Thane (Mass Effect), and Fenris (Dragon Age II) but it still comes down to their personality rather than looks. Its difficult for me to think of a male game character who's physique was designed to be viewed sexually.
Edit: Nevermind, I think Thane was. I recall Bioware saying that they tried to figure out what women found physically attractive in a man and based his design around that. I can't say they completely succeeded since the bird/dinosaur alien they didn't intend to be a romantic interest was more popular.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I would say characters like this abound in games already ... particularly Japanese ones, since the yaoi ideal is a particularly Japanese ideal of masculinity.
But whether svelte yaoi dreamboat or bulky macho hunk... do either of those have the potential to set off accusations of "sexualization" in the negative sense? I think not.
You make a good point that yaoi is male sexualization... but I don't see it as something that would ever raise bloggers' ire like a docile girl with big boobs.
As do I, but it was tipping the hat to the idea that I realize this is a patriarchal society and most games are made for men. Even compensating for that, I still think attractive fantasy female portrayals are often singled out while attractive fantasy males next to them go without criticism.
Baliter, yes. I think he'd be seen as an attractive male.
Again to hammer the point, no one would see him as "sexualized". No one could.
You'll need to elaborate.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Have you ever thought of it as something like females need help and guys can take care of themselves type of mentality? There is a lot of that around gaf at times and it's a little stupid to be honest. It really doesn't help the overall situation either.
On another note this image always get's brought up in Altier threads in a negative light when it really shouldn't.
It pretty much falls in line with both groupings. *guys shirt could be a bit more ripped though :lol
/This Entire "Debate"
Not really actually.
1) I think you all have mangled the word censored.
Dos) You can preach that till the sun comes up, that isn't going to make publishers release games from a non white male perspective.
The dudes in Mortal Kombat usually look like warriors and are dressed appropriately. Then again I don't remember the older games having any controversy about sexuality or objectification because the violence took the full attentio. It was only the 3D games? Where I noticed the bosoms were enlarged to ridiculous levels. My memory is hazy on MK knowledge though
Pretty hazy. While still confined by the laws of physics the females in MK2 wore a one piece swimsuit. Then the suit got opened vertically in the middle and Sonya got replaced with playboy model Kerri Hoskins to close out the digitized era.
MK9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvkYA_R5LkA&playnext=1&list=PL4F424276AE238755&feature=results_main
Injustice dials it back from mk9 (outside of Harley).
That is a debate well worth a thread in itself and a discussion we should have. I would fully support someone making this.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Hmm... Interesting. Never seen that one before.
I'm only responding to the prevailing feminist idea of patriarchy myself... don't quite know what to think. I do know that just being male doesn't automatically get you anything in this world (i suppose this is not for this thread).
Vigilant Walrus
Member
sexuality is a major theme in all of culture now a days, with entertainment being a front runner. You need only look at the side of a bus to watch incredible, beautiful attractive people.
Blaming games is silly. The amount of sexual actresses in music and hollywood. I mean, come on.
Sex sells. Sex sells. Sex sells. People will make what is safe and what sells.
And it's exactly the same thing for men. You don't get to play old 50 year old half fat men in a lot of games. More times than not your playing as a young handsome fellow with muscle, height and fair skin.
It's part of the escapism of the whole thing. People like to get out of their own generic looking body and be focused/pretend/immersion themselves in beautiful characters.
Blaming games is silly. The amount of sexual actresses in music and hollywood. I mean, come on.
Sex sells. Sex sells. Sex sells. People will make what is safe and what sells.
And it's exactly the same thing for men. You don't get to play old 50 year old half fat men in a lot of games. More times than not your playing as a young handsome fellow with muscle, height and fair skin.
It's part of the escapism of the whole thing. People like to get out of their own generic looking body and be focused/pretend/immersion themselves in beautiful characters.
You would be surprised how much being white and a male helps.
No not even the slightest. You are confusing "sexed" and "masculine" here.
And yes, Balthier doesn't strike you as sexualized because you have Vaan always next to him shirtless. Imagine the attires being reversed.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
The world can't handle that. No one can. :lol
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Isn't that the same thing going on for Erotic novels for men? Book publishers having a massive "Bias" towards a certain segment(gender)!
IMO that's just society. And goes much deeper than tropes in video games. That a basis in capitalism, that you are going to provide something that has a realistic chance of making a profit.
Publishers will change their tune when they make a Twillight/50 shades of grey sort of thing. Then the audience will appear, but right now, this equivalent segment for women is not there. It's just the same currently as it has been. But that says itself. It's strange that this is getting a spin like this.
Vermillion
Banned
I personally believe this to be saddening. Is that what a female audience wants...?
Devolution
Member
Ones who game probably not. The audience for that shit is definitely more in the bored religious housewife spectrum.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Not all of them no, but those two things are very popular
Women are by far the biggest consumers of romance novels and they have smut a lot of the time.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Which is why guys saying women don't want sexualized stuff is hilarious
Both genders like that type of stuff, they just consume it in different forms and ways.The problem isn't stuff being sexual it's what Devo said before about female characters being more expanded and not shallow characters compared to male characters.
How about Vampire Diaries? Elena can go into vampire trigger mode.
SonicBoomX
Banned
There's a reason they're among the best selling book franchises, and the Twilight movies are hugely successful as will the 50 Shades of Grey movies. The blatant sexualized male archetypes in both Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey are rarely the topic of controversy. Seems like it's okay for entertainment designed for females to be sexist against men, but even the slightest perceived difference the other way around and everybody gets up in arms. It's pathetic.
Devolution
Member
Which is why guys saying women don't want sexilized stuff is hilarious
And we're not really interested in super hulked out dudes. So when people talk about Chris getting bigger it's not the same thing.
thebaroness
Member
That's because a simple design alone cannot, and will not, be truly harmful or regressive to a gender or sexual orientation. It's always about the context and presentation. No matter how a character looks, it's going to come down to how they are written to determine whether or not they are harmful to real people in the real world.
With that said, my observation has led me to believe many people who are hurt by a specific design style are so because they take it too personally. It always seems to me they have internal issues with themselves rather than anything external. They take an artistic design as someone saying "You MUST look like this."
When I hear "This ______ character makes me feel bad because it's unrealistically proportioned and real people don't look like that!", I mostly infer that the person is insecure about their own appearance. This goes for every outlandish Hollywood film costume, over the top fashion design, and crazy pop singer's outfits. It's not localized to just gaming. What I am saying is not that real people need to change themselves in extreme ways to match up to these standards, but rather people in general need to learn to love themselves more. No rational adult worth befriending actually believes or desires a mate that exactly resembles an outlandish video game design. Be happy with your body and rock that shit with confidence! Then artists won't have to get chided for their vision just because it made a few people who already feel bad, feel bad.
If someone who is genuinely offended by certain over the top designs and can tell me why they feel it's truly harmful, I'm more than willing to listen.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
http://atelier.wikia.com/wiki/Sterkenburg_Cranach
How do you feel about this character Devo?
*he even ages across 3 games... sorta? LOL*
1) I think its insulting that you imply that a romance game ( like there arent already those ) would get ladies to formulate in mass amounts.
2) This isnt just a lady problem, this is a non white male problem. I do not think a Tyler perry/ slumdogg millionaire game is going to get my people to migrate to games in mass amounts. However including them in more games , and game related fields and making them feel welcome might.
You would be surprised.
Devolution
Member
That's because a simple design alone cannot, and will not, be truly harmful or regressive to a gender or sexual orientation. It's always about the context and presentation. No matter how a character looks, it's going to come down to how they are written to determine whether or not they are harmful to real people in the real world.
With that said, my observation has led me to believe many people who are hurt by a specific design style are so because they take it too personally. It always seems to me they have internal issues with themselves rather than anything external. They take an artistic design as someone saying "You MUST look like this."
When I hear "This ______ character makes me feel bad because it's unrealistically proportioned and real people don't look like that!", I mostly infer that the person is insecure about their own appearance. This goes for every outlandish Hollywood film costume, over the top fashion design, and crazy pop singer's outfits. It's not localized to just gaming. What I am saying is not that real people need to change themselves in extreme ways to match up to these standards, but rather people in general need to learn to love themselves more. No rational adult worth befriending actually believes or desires a mate that exactly resembles an outlandish video game design. Be happy with your body and rock that shit with confidence! Then artists won't have to get chided for their vision just because it made a few people who already feel bad, feel bad.
If someone who is genuinely offended by certain over the top designs and can tell me why they feel it's truly harmful, I'm more than willing to listen.
What's fucked too is it takes away from discussions about insidious stuff like lack of agency or the same obvious gender disparity in say armor in MMOs that keeps happening over and over. But no time to criticize a niche jrpg without any rational other than "OMG TITS."
I'm honestly the wrong person to ask on a persona level since I don't tend to like that but many women do. I actually prefer a more gruff ass dude than many of my hetero fem friends.
Seeing Fabio, I'd say it depends on the person more than anything. There's a lot of Chris smut out there.
But yes, I'm inclined to agree Chris didn't become a boulder-punching tank with for sexual appeal.
We all love Big Boss in our own way
Karsticles
Member
Let's not throw that "we" talk around. Plenty of ladies are into that stuff. My mom swoons whenever Arnold Schwarzenegger is on the big screen. Tons of ladies are into RE5 Chris. I agree it's not the same thing as boobs, but don't generalize your disinterest.
Are you saying Hideki Kamiya is not worth befriending? :-O