Devolution
Member
Arnold isn't even on the level of hulked out dudes in games. I like muscles too but let's be realistic here.
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Women And Sexuality In Gaming (Kotaku/Dragon's Crown Thoughts And More)
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
- Start date
Arnold isn't even on the level of hulked out dudes in games. I like muscles too but let's be realistic here.
Vermillion
Banned
That's because a simple design alone cannot, and will not, be truly harmful or regressive to a gender or sexual orientation. It's always about the context and presentation. No matter how a character looks, it's going to come down to how they are written to determine whether or not they are harmful to real people in the real world.
With that said, my observation has led me to believe many people who are hurt by a specific design style are so because they take it too personally. It always seems to me they have internal issues with themselves rather than anything external. They take an artistic design as someone saying "You MUST look like this."
When I hear "This ______ character makes me feel bad because it's unrealistically proportioned and real people don't look like that!", I mostly infer that the person is insecure about their own appearance. This goes for every outlandish Hollywood film costume, over the top fashion design, and crazy pop singer's outfits. It's not localized to just gaming. What I am saying is not that real people need to change themselves in extreme ways to match up to these standards, but rather people in general need to learn to love themselves more. No rational adult worth befriending actually believes or desires a mate that exactly resembles an outlandish video game design. Be happy with your body and rock that shit with confidence! Then artists won't have to get chided for their vision just because it made a few people who already feel bad, feel bad.
If someone who is genuinely offended by certain over the top designs and can tell me why they feel it's truly harmful, I'm more than willing to listen.
You're right - it's probably image issues, but not necessarily by the person complaining. It's the little girls who will grow up thinking that's what they have to be like.
Though I'm not sure that the image issue is exclusive to women... if only based on how many guys in dating age threads imagine they've no hope unless they're hot...
Oof, this requires more thought; someone else will answer your question.
thebaroness
Member
Hmm I think most ladies prefer Leon and he never got bulkier. He's got the wispy hair, sexy jacket, and mysterious loner attitude that women tend to fall for
I think if you dissect it in a very Freudian way, women on average tend to lean more towards personality types and facial features because we like having something to care for. Women like being needed, and a man that is mysterious might be hiding his "damaged" past that the woman can save him from with her love! So it because a fantasy for them. Women tend to like mysterious guys who are sensitive and devoted, with long hair and smoldering eyes.
While males are more focused on the body of a female and have their preferences in breasts, legs, hips, etc. Obviously these is not an absolutes, just tends to be what either gender favors.
Hmm I think most ladies prefer Leon and he never got bulkier. He's got the wispy hair, sexy jacket, and mysterious loner attitude that women tend to fall for
I think if you dissect it in a very Freudian way, women on average tend to lean more towards personality types and facial features. Women tend to like mysterious guys who are sensitive and devoted, while long hair and smoldering eyes.
While males are more focused on the body of a female and have their preferences in breasts, legs, hips, etc. Obviously these is not an absolutes, just tends to be what either gender favors.
I disagree because , you seem to be describing is white male protagonist.
Some people like black male protagonist, or Hispanic male protagonists, that is happy.
Devolution
Member
Hmm I think most ladies prefer Leon and he never got bulkier. He's got the wispy hair, sexy jacket, and mysterious loner attitude that women tend to fall for
I think if you dissect it in a very Freudian way, women on average tend to lean more towards personality types and facial features. Women tend to like mysterious guys who are sensitive and devoted, while long hair and smoldering eyes.
While males are more focused on the body of a female and have their preferences in breasts, legs, hips, etc. Obviously these is not an absolutes, just tends to be what either gender favors.
Yeah I can't really get behind some of the lean tall dark and handsome types that are popular, like say Edward. I'm usually fawning over some hulk ass dude like Alcide from True Blood.
Devolution
Member
For reference
Chris is still bigger. Especially in the traps and biceps.
Yeah his shoulders are insane as well. Dude looks all kinds of off.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Ah so more of a Bang Shishigami then?:lol
But that statement there too shows that there are more than one types of taste across both genders and people can't and really shouldn't group stuff up into one area EVER. Which seems to be a problem as well on both sides of the coin. Some guys like huge tits and some dudes love girls that have small chest and dressed up conservatively. Of course females are the same way with guys and what they like. Personally I think we just need more variety in general with characters of both genders. Female characters do suffer the most at the moment though BIG TIME in western work
I'm not making any kind of point. We're talking about two people, might as well not leave it up to the imagination what they look like.
This conversation has turned in a fun direction though
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
The threads tend to be fun for a while at least til one of extremist from either point of view comes back in.
thebaroness
Member
Er, where in there did I ever say only white? I posted a picture of Leon because we were taking about RE. One of my favorite sexy game characters is Persian:
I'm an equal opportunity booty lover.
Devolution
Member
Either way the bulk isn't really aimed at women which we agree. Although I wouldn't want more male characters driven into Edward territory. That's my personal issue, if they are, cringe.
Hmmmm....What do women want? Like, actually?
Someone will say: Girls don't like roided guy, feminine guy, shaggy guy, clean cut glasses guy, Dominant guy, senstitive guy.
Then someone will say that they do like one of those types, or more.
For guys, people just say "boobs and butt", which may be an overgeneralization, but whatever.
So what do woman want though?
Maybe everyone has different tastes *Gasp*
Devolution
Member
People do want different tastes but your run of the mill hulked out character really isn't geared towards women. So when people bring up Chris, it's laughable.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Chris got super humanly bulked out for story reasons. They had to make it some degree of believablity that he was doing the type of crazy shit he was doing. I think he falls more in line with Kratos.
Er, where in there did I ever say only white? I posted a picture of Leon because we were taking about RE. One of my favorite sexy game characters is Persian:
I'm an equal opportunity booty lover.
You described leon and then went onto dark personality and wispy hair. Which would lead me to believe you were describing well Leon. As the preferred female.. well, male.
Which is untrue, and illogical especially for people like me, who's hair cannot literally be wispy. There are no shortage of ladies who want a piece of Dwane Jonson with all his curled up hair muscle body..
Vermillion
Banned
Hopefully, but I know girls my age who read that stuff.
Indeed.
Yah, I guess. Why those, though? Shitty role models, from what I've been made aware.
Never seen it.
I honestly believe those books are more sexist against women than men, but... that's not my place to judge, yes?
thebaroness
Member
Ick, why is Edward always the first one brought up. Such an awful character.
I guess I am personifying my own personal tastes a bit much, I would always go for the mysterious types because my fantasy was to be the "one who saved them" hahah
My favorite anime character when I was younger was Heero Yuy for exactly that reason. Oh lord the fan fiction I used to write...
But my point still stands that women's tastes tend to land outside of just a specific bulky body type in males.
At least we can both agree that Big Boss is the sex, we'd bone the shit out of him
Oh to be EVA mmmmmmmmmmmmm
Devolution
Member
There's a young contingency but the answer is to introduce them to better smut.
Ick, why is Edward always the first one brought up. Such an awful character.
I guess I am personifying my own personal tastes a bit much, I would always go for the mysterious types because my fantasy was to be the "one who saved them" hahah
My favorite anime character when I was younger was Heero Yuy for exactly that reason. Oh lord the fan fiction I used to write...
But my point still stands that women's tastes tend to land outside of just a specific bulky body type in males.
At least we can both agree that Big Boss is the sex, we'd bone the shit out of him
Oh to be EVA mmmmmmmmmmmmm
Yes.
I mean I was a big ass Vin Diesel fan so I like 'em a bit hulking. Video game hulking though, that's something else.
Helscream
Banned
I guess I'll add my two cents.
Since I am a dude I obviously cannot take on the perception that women have about this subject. I would "think" maybe the real source of the issue is really allowing the player male or female to have the equal opportunity to play as (or create) character that they would like to role-play as or relate to in some way. Since most of the audience for video games today is still male. It would make sense that most games are catered to a male audience. Not that I agree with the notion, but I can see why some women are just present in video games just for the sake of a sex symbol.
I think a great example to help explain my idea is a game like FFX. You had a large cast of main characters with varying looks and personalities. The character I related to/admired/played as the most was Auron. I was able to place myself in that fictional world through Auron thus the experience became much more pleasurable. Without that related character I would have still had fun with the gameplay, but story-wise I would have had a hard time fitting myself into that world.
I think Diablo 3 is also a great example because you have a male/female option for each class. I had a blast playing as the Barbarian because I love that play-style, but my experience would have been different if the Barbarian only had a female gender option regardless how much fun I had with the gameplay. And when I say that I don't mean it in a way that I problems playing as a female protagonist or I am a misogynist. I would just have more fulfillment playing as male.
I think what it really boils down to is there are few strong male characters that are written well. And even fewer that are female. So the ability to have a strong female character to relate to/play as I am sure is frustrating. Its just out of the two options is the female characters that get the short end of the stick. And I am sure it drives away potential female gamers when you have a problem as persistent as this.
Since I am a dude I obviously cannot take on the perception that women have about this subject. I would "think" maybe the real source of the issue is really allowing the player male or female to have the equal opportunity to play as (or create) character that they would like to role-play as or relate to in some way. Since most of the audience for video games today is still male. It would make sense that most games are catered to a male audience. Not that I agree with the notion, but I can see why some women are just present in video games just for the sake of a sex symbol.
I think a great example to help explain my idea is a game like FFX. You had a large cast of main characters with varying looks and personalities. The character I related to/admired/played as the most was Auron. I was able to place myself in that fictional world through Auron thus the experience became much more pleasurable. Without that related character I would have still had fun with the gameplay, but story-wise I would have had a hard time fitting myself into that world.
I think Diablo 3 is also a great example because you have a male/female option for each class. I had a blast playing as the Barbarian because I love that play-style, but my experience would have been different if the Barbarian only had a female gender option regardless how much fun I had with the gameplay. And when I say that I don't mean it in a way that I problems playing as a female protagonist or I am a misogynist. I would just have more fulfillment playing as male.
I think what it really boils down to is there are few strong male characters that are written well. And even fewer that are female. So the ability to have a strong female character to relate to/play as I am sure is frustrating. Its just out of the two options is the female characters that get the short end of the stick. And I am sure it drives away potential female gamers when you have a problem as persistent as this.
The hulked out character isn't geared towards women? Well, isn't there two types?
Dirty hulked up like Gears of War guys I understand.
But guys like Chris and Drake are bigger than the average dude, but still meant to look good and clean cut.
I would say these two can be geared towards women.
Ick, why is Edward always the first one brought up. Such an awful character.
I guess I am personifying my own personal tastes a bit much, I would always go for the mysterious types because my fantasy was to be the "one who saved them" hahah
My favorite anime character when I was younger was Heero Yuy for exactly that reason. Oh lord the fan fiction I used to write...
But my point still stands that women's tastes tend to land outside of just a specific bulky body type in males.
At least we can both agree that Big Boss is the sex, we'd bone the shit out of him
Oh to be EVA mmmmmmmmmmmmm
Eww....
Pick someone else.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Why is it insulting?
Also, that was not my point. My point was that gender in-equality is in many things, but boys and men are being forgotten because they don't have such aggressive vocal feminism groups that only speak for them - not for equality!
And twilight - nobody had seen girls be so "fans" over a franchise! The community surrounding that is almost the female version of Star Trek / Star Wars!
Sex sells!
Devolution
Member
Yup. And some of the strong ones that already exist have been drug through the shit too.
How are men or boys being forgotten in games and media? They're the most represented and catered to group.
How so? I haven't read the books so I honestly don't know.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
You totally didn't just put Chris and Drake in the same category did you? :lol
John Rabbit
Banned
i thought it was obvious chris was an embodiment of the archetypal male power fantasy.
only the very young, very ignorant, or vindictive individuals would think he is a realistic portrayal of men, let alone that capcom or the character designer was intending to impress this ideal upon the male youth of the world.
only the very young, very ignorant, or vindictive individuals would think he is a realistic portrayal of men, let alone that capcom or the character designer was intending to impress this ideal upon the male youth of the world.
Right, you see men who appeal to women more and are sexualized more in Japanese titles more than anything.
Devolution
Member
thebaroness
Member
Ok I think you're zeroing in a bit to much on one word I said. I actually find black, Hispanic, etc males very attractive, the real problem is a completely different issue in gaming.
And one I feel very strongly about it, and I think it's a bigger issue than how women are treated, honestly. There are far fewer racially diverse characters, and I'd like to see more game developers create starring characters that weren't white.
Lets see what I can get away with.
That one didn't go over well, this game was already accused of being racist, and that made it far FAR worse. That was a horrible shit storm, and probably solidified no more black people in RE.
I would too, but that is a whole other monster, especially in japan.
For an example , look above.
You would think that.
SonicBoomX
Banned
According to wikipedia, the series has sold over 70 million copies in over 37 countries, and is the fastest selling paperback of all time. You're telling me those were all bored religious housewives? Like it or not, 50 Shades of Grey is one of the most consumed pieces of entertainment by women of all ages and all backgrounds.
How do you figure?
The anti-racist community hurting themselves. Doesn't surprise me.
Devolution
Member
Some people want so bad for there to be a male equivalent to the plight of female characters they'll choose anything to serve as an example, even when said example is obviously not one at all.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I don't think a lot of people that try to make that argument play the proper games to use the proper examples. Which in the long run makes sense
But it's still funny.I wouldn't say that, actually I didn't believe the game was racist at all. Until that outfit. Japan tends to get off the " we do not understand other types of people excuse" but in this day in age, you can talk to people and visit places. So that isn't a thing anymore.
Its people being to chicken to realize" huh maybe that was a bit racist" and just move on, and do not make that excuse to avoid one race at all costs.
Also again what were they even thinking with that.
Devolution
Member
I don't think a lot of people that try to make that argument play the proper games to use the proper examples. Which in the long run makes sense
There are plenty of shit archetypes and molds for male characters but it's a different problem that requires a different conversation.
Maybe I don't even know what a male power fantasy is...
After googling a bit, does it necessarily have to involve big muscles and feats of strength. From what I read, it just seemed like one imagining oneself doing things in a dominant manner that he normally couldn't, and receiving some kind of recognition or reward for it.
Or does the "male" part allude to the physicality? And what I just described up ^ is just a regular "power fantasy"?
After googling a bit, does it necessarily have to involve big muscles and feats of strength. From what I read, it just seemed like one imagining oneself doing things in a dominant manner that he normally couldn't, and receiving some kind of recognition or reward for it.
Or does the "male" part allude to the physicality? And what I just described up ^ is just a regular "power fantasy"?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Well I was more so referring to people trying to make a counter argument or equal comparison with characters. Not the shitty common male archetypes thingy.
Vermillion
Banned
Perhaps so!
Ah - both main characters are essentially weak and vapid. Bella allows men to do pretty much everything for her, is absurdly indecisive and her situation can be categorized as emotionally abusive.
50 Shades... I guess changing a man... making them normal is something women aspire to... if they're attracted to abusive relationships, anyways.
Devolution
Member
I know you were, just sayin'. Every time we have one of these threads "space marines" gets brought up. Different problem.
And it always comes down to developer intentionts. That is the only factor we have more information beyond "Me and my friends like approach x".
I don't find it good to compare the situation of either sex to one another in this situation but I can't say the overuse of muscular men doesn't effect a boy at all.
I find it offensive now how much being an example of your traditional gender role is considered a male power fantasy now, but I suppose if you are to be against one traditional gender might as well be against the other.