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Writer refuse to work with a studio because none of the characters in the story are LGBTQ

BbMajor7th

Member
I'm not acting like it's a 5-star novel or anything like that, but this is a comparison to someone who, implying lack of prior experience through action, accuses and antagonizes the interviewers to their faces. And on top of that, this is with the knowledge that these kind of people actually get hired by big media companies.
I write for a living - I fell ass-backwards into it with no prior experience. Some hires don't make any sense and I can vouch for it.
 
This thread got out of hand. The writer was in the wrong trying to change the product to align with their world views. There is nothing inherently wrong with writing LGBT characters into a story or even making one centered around it, but it's totally wrong trying to impose yourself and change already established characters to fit your own narrative. This wasn't the right writer for this story and that's what matters.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
This thread got out of hand. The writer was in the wrong trying to change the product to align with their world views. There is nothing inherently wrong with writing LGBT characters into a story or even making one centered around it, but it's totally wrong trying to impose yourself and change already established characters to fit your own narrative. This wasn't the right writer for this story and that's what matters.
Nor was the OP a "homophobe" or should have had any attempts of being bullied with those loose lips tactics for not changing his original vision.
 
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Azelover

Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
There was a trans character in Shenmue 2.

But during translation they forgot to emphasize it. That was in 2001.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
But I thought gender is a social construct
Friday Movie GIF
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
If you are referring to me I am gay and I said that trans and gay are different and they are that's a fact, I have nothing in common with someone who feels they were born the wrong gender. I'm happy to be a man, I have no desire to be anything other than a man, that doesn't mean I think that I'm superior in any way it's just that what makes me different from heterosexuals is totally different than what makes a trans person different, many of them claim to be heterosexual.

It's stupid to put people who are attracted to/love people of the same gender in the same group with people who feel that they were born in the wrong body, tell me what makes us the same? nothing. One isn't better or worse we are just different and don't belong in the same group, it's sad that we all still have to be categorized like this to begin with but it's also sad that there are people like this writer who think the most important thing about a person is their sexuality or sexual identity. When I first meet a person I don't say "nice to meet you, I'm gay and my name is...." I don't think my sexual orientation is what defines who I am as a person and it doesn't need to be the first thing a person I meet knows about me.

Most games don't tell you a thing about the characters love life and it's stupid to think that that needs to be forced into a story that otherwise would have ignored it.
Now you know why straight people who get involved with talking about LGBTQ can get into heated battles, or that someone like you {gay) may get misunderstood.

Although the LBGTQ group involves many different people of different attractions or born one gender and not the other, the most vocal people on social media and the most attention brought forth (by media) come from the loudest people that seem to try to represent the entire acronym. And whether you knows this or not, or dont care at all, but IMO the trans community has been the loudest lately and whether you like it or not you are lumped in with it because the voice from the group seems to represent all of you by default.

On one hand, it's a group of people banded together by acronym for sake of improving numbers count vs. straight people, but they have different views on sexuality and gender.
 
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Nor was the OP a "homophobe" or should have had any attempts of being bullied with those loose lips tactics for not changing his original vision.
Agreed, the writer was simply a rude person and they should just keep what they thought about OP and their coworkers to themselves. Every action asks for a rection, cause, and consequence. If the writer said what they wanted to say, then more than likely they should hear what was deserved of that attitude.
 

93xfan

Banned
As a gay gamer who lurks more than participates, I had to break my silence to say: please make it stop. This topic was clearly intended to start a thread bashing "woke" culture (as was this same person's thread in August 2021 about female character design).


I have to address this “attack on woke culture” thing. The person defending woke culture wants the thread shut down. Not a surprise.

As usual, woke culture demands submission, and to be the only voice in the room. When things don’t go their way, they don’t just leave. Instead they demand those who refuse to go along with woke culture to shut up.

Be grateful we aren’t as tactless. YOU have the freedom to express your viewpoint just about anywhere (including here). On most forums, WE do not. Woke culture never would’ve come about if it wasn’t for free thinking and free speech culture.
 
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PSX2007

Neo Member
I have to address this “attack on woke culture” thing. The person defending woke couture wants the thread shut down. Not a surprise.

As usual, woke culture demands submission, and to be the only voice in the room. When things don’t go their way, they don’t just leave. Instead they demand those who refuse to go along with woke culture to shut up.

Be grateful we aren’t as tactless. YOU have the freedom to express your viewpoint just about anywhere (including here). On most forums, WE do not. Woke culture never would’ve come about if it wasn’t for free thinking and free speech culture.
I don't even get what you're so angry about. A writer asked to include LGBTQ+ characters. The writer was told no. The writer was not offered the job. (If this story is even true at all and not just made up to elicit angry "anti-woke" responses.) The level of outrage and vitriol at this one alleged incident is, I think, over-the-top.

And talking about tact as you capitalize YOU and WE -- that's rich. Like, chill.
 

PSX2007

Neo Member
Is the argument here that 5% of the population absolutely must have representation in 100% of all stories?

There isn’t room anymore for OP’s story to exist?
No -- not what I said at all. I don't think that, and I think most queer people don't think that. At the risk of speaking for "most" queer people, I think queer people DO want to see themselves represented on their screens, but they do not need to nor want to see themselves represented in everything on their screens. Diversity doesn't always mean diversity WITHIN a project. Diversity should mean diversity AMONG projects. Representation matters. A lot. Being a closeted gay boy seeing a gay character in my video games would have been fucking amazing and uplifting and powerful and confidence-boosting at a time when I probably needed that the most.

My larger point was this topic about one (alleged) incident has turned unnecessarily angry and dumb. I think these conversations should be had. I think they are interesting and important. But when it veers into vitriol and outrage and anger and digs with no moderation, it becomes counterproductive. People have forgotten how to have a fucking conversation or debate without the outrage meter going through the roof. It's exhausting and dumb.
 

93xfan

Banned
I don't even get what you're so angry about. A writer asked to include LGBTQ+ characters. The writer was told no. The writer was not offered the job. (If this story is even true at all and not just made up to elicit angry "anti-woke" responses.) The level of outrage and vitriol at this one alleged incident is, I think, over-the-top.

And talking about tact as you capitalize YOU and WE -- that's rich. Like, chill.
Nice summary. Did you conveniently forget the fact that the writer accused everyone else of being homophobic? You don’t see that as a bullying tactic, perhaps because you’ll never be defamed in that way. Maybe you even agree with it being used, which is why you try and distort what happened (and even call into question the integrity and credibility of the OP).

So along comes you, trying to dictate whether the discussion should be allowed to continue. Don’t know if you know this, but it’s a common tactic from left wing nutcases (due to frail beliefs that don’t stand up to any scrutiny). It’s their go-to when defamatory accusations aren’t shutting down the conversation.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I don't even get what you're so angry about. A writer asked to include LGBTQ+ characters. The writer was told no. The writer was not offered the job. (If this story is even true at all and not just made up to elicit angry "anti-woke" responses.) The level of outrage and vitriol at this one alleged incident is, I think, over-the-top.

And talking about tact as you capitalize YOU and WE -- that's rich. Like, chill.
You forgot the part where the candidate got pissed and called the person a homophobe. Sounds pretty dumb to say in an interview. Why anyone wants to force their home life identity politics to a workplace is beyond me. Do your own politics at home and leave everyone at work alone. People dont like their boss bugging them at home, so in fairness don't hassle people at work with home life identity crisis.
No -- not what I said at all. I don't think that, and I think most queer people don't think that. At the risk of speaking for "most" queer people, I think queer people DO want to see themselves represented on their screens, but they do not need to nor want to see themselves represented in everything on their screens. Diversity doesn't always mean diversity WITHIN a project. Diversity should mean diversity AMONG projects. Representation matters. A lot. Being a closeted gay boy seeing a gay character in my video games would have been fucking amazing and uplifting and powerful and confidence-boosting at a time when I probably needed that the most.

My larger point was this topic about one (alleged) incident has turned unnecessarily angry and dumb. I think these conversations should be had. I think they are interesting and important. But when it veers into vitriol and outrage and anger and digs with no moderation, it becomes counterproductive. People have forgotten how to have a fucking conversation or debate without the outrage meter going through the roof. It's exhausting and dumb.
And that's your problem.

You want it jammed into games to make you happy. The vast majority of games have no real plot at all (like a car racing game), or the plot is very basic like "kill the final boss after you've leveled up for 20 hours". The small number of games left that have a story with some decent depth to it usually have nothing to with sexuality, people hooking up or getting married. So why you want gay people (showing it so it's obvious) is a me, me, me demand.

Just because a man and woman are shown on a screen doesn't mean they are 100% straight by default.

As I said above once or twice, most characters are not shown in games to be straight or gay or trans at all because the plot has nothing to do with it. So in that case, just believe what you want. If I think that brown haired guy is straight, that's me. If you think the same character is gay, that's you. If someone else thinks he's bi, trans or anything else go ahead, that's their view.

The writers are actually doing everyone a favour by leaving sexuality open ended, so if I think all characters are straight and you think all of them are gay, how can anyone complain or disprove that? The writers wont even care or disprove it.

The LBGTQ community is the first one to say don't pigeon hole them into stereotypes and don't give an evil eye trying to isolate them. They can look no different than a straight person so you wont even know.

Well there you go. Video game characters are vague in sexuality so nobody knows. So why go out the way putting up their hand in a plot line showcasing someone is gay when it has nothing to do with the plot?
 
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Now you know why straight people who get involved with talking about LGBTQ can get into heated battles, or that someone like you {gay) may get misunderstood.

Although the LBGTQ group involves many different people of different attractions or born one gender and not the other, the most vocal people on social media and the most attention brought forth (by media) come from the loudest people that seem to try to represent the entire acronym. And whether you knows this or not, or dont care at all, but IMO the trans community has been the loudest lately and whether you like it or not you are lumped in with it because the voice from the group seems to represent all of you by default.

On one hand, it's a group of people banded together by acronym for sake of improving numbers count vs. straight people, but they have different views on sexuality and gender.
That's why I hate this constant need to clump people into groups, I'm an individual before anything else and I'm really sick of everyone have to be their ethnicity or sexual orientation before they are just John or Mike or Sarah lol. The numbers thing is likely why it's done but it makes no sense since people are being grouped together and put in the same boat who really belong in two different boats.
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
I don't even get what you're so angry about. A writer asked to include LGBTQ+ characters. The writer was told no. The writer was not offered the job. (If this story is even true at all and not just made up to elicit angry "anti-woke" responses.) The level of outrage and vitriol at this one alleged incident is, I think, over-the-top.

And talking about tact as you capitalize YOU and WE -- that's rich. Like, chill.

Why are you trying so desperately to dismiss the point that the guy was calling folks Homophobes?
 

supernova8

Banned
No -- not what I said at all. I don't think that, and I think most queer people don't think that. At the risk of speaking for "most" queer people, I think queer people DO want to see themselves represented on their screens, but they do not need to nor want to see themselves represented in everything on their screens. Diversity doesn't always mean diversity WITHIN a project. Diversity should mean diversity AMONG projects. Representation matters. A lot. Being a closeted gay boy seeing a gay character in my video games would have been fucking amazing and uplifting and powerful and confidence-boosting at a time when I probably needed that the most.

My larger point was this topic about one (alleged) incident has turned unnecessarily angry and dumb. I think these conversations should be had. I think they are interesting and important. But when it veers into vitriol and outrage and anger and digs with no moderation, it becomes counterproductive. People have forgotten how to have a fucking conversation or debate without the outrage meter going through the roof. It's exhausting and dumb.
Maybe it's just me but I'm more than happy not knowing a game character's sexual orientation at all unless it's important to the actual story (ie Jill is John's wife etc.). I just don't see the point.

This piece talks in more detail about how it was never made clear if Lara Croft was straight or gay or bisexual (etc.) and I think that's fine (I also don't agree with the article's conclusion about us *needing* LGBT main characters).

I think all we need is visually male (men) and female (women) characters and then people are free to project whatever they want to project onto said character. Want to assume that Geralt of Rivia is actually a trans-man? Sure go for it. Perhaps Samus is actually intersex? Sure why not? I just don't see the value in getting hung up over it.

Alternatively, you can go the Pokemon route where the character is not assigned any gender and the cosmetics/appearances are such that it's hard to tell either way.
 
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Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
Maybe it's just me but I'm more than happy not knowing a game character's sexual orientation at all unless it's important to the actual story (ie Jill is John's wife etc.). I just don't see the point.

This piece talks in more detail about how it was never made clear if Lara Croft was straight or gay or bisexual (etc.) and I think that's fine (I also don't agree with the article's conclusion about us *needing* LGBT main characters).

I think all we need is visually male (men) and female (women) characters and then people are free to project whatever they want to project onto said character. Want to assume that Geralt of Rivia is actually a trans-man? Sure go for it. Perhaps Samus is actually intersex? Sure why not? I just don't see the value in getting hung up over it.

Alternatively, you can go the Pokemon route where the character is not assigned any gender and the cosmetics/appearances are such that it's hard to tell either way.

Anyone who *needs* representation in media is a shallow, sad little person. I grew up watching films, shows, and reading books and comics of people that were not representative of who I am. The whole point is escapism. To explore views and concepts that are not possible for you personally or in reality.

Essentially anyone who pushes identity politics is a cunt who needs to piss off.
 

PJX

Member
If someone came in my job and said "you're being homophobic" knowing that I'm not I wouldn't be bothered. Its about evidence so a mere accusation doesn't bother me. OP is being equally as sensitive as the guy since he feels the need to post about this experience. in general people need to stop being so sensitive about every single thing. He only posted this in here cause he knew it would get a reaction he wanted calling the guy a sjw or whatever.
You're assumptions of why I made this topic is very condescending and yes I was very upset about the whole situation. I made this topic about 4 days after the incident happen and only made it because it was bothering me a lot. The reason why it bothered me so much is because in the industry if you are labeled homophobic, companies and investors etc won't want to deal with you at all.

The co-founder of the studio is someone who I have worked with and he is very down to earth and humble guy. He has a sister and neice who are lesbians and a one of his nephews is gay and is very close to all of them. So yes someone accusing them of being homophobic because they wouldn't change a character in a story, one that he came up with is very disrespectful. So no it's not just a mere accusation, it can be very damaging to the studio's reputation if it spreads around in the industry when they are looking for funding or a publishing deal.
 
You don't, and that's my point.

Fuck some of you act like it's a personal attack if there is a gay character in something.
That's because, many times, it's clear that it IS a personal attack. These militant devs force it in and then do everything they can to make it political. Not the mention the games that outright make it a literal attack like the "bigot sandwich" cringe in TLOU2. FFS, it IS possible to have disagreements with the LGBT agenda being pushed via video games without one being a "bigot/homophobe/transphobe/whatever other overused and worthless insult is next".
Guess what? The days of society breaking over backwards to appease the LGBT community is, hopefully, coming to an end, which means this destruction of the gaming industry may potentially be stopped as well.
 
Anyone who *needs* representation in media is a shallow, sad little person. I grew up watching films, shows, and reading books and comics of people that were not representative of who I am. The whole point is escapism. To explore views and concepts that are not possible for you personally or in reality.

Essentially anyone who pushes identity politics is a cunt who needs to piss off.

FUCK YES! FInally. I liked Watcher Super Man in the 80s. Wanted to be like him at some point, KNEW I wasn't him. Never felt I needed to be represented. I'm no one, but, yet, I am Some One, at the same time. Ya dig? Hopefully!
 

OZ9000

Banned
Anyone who *needs* representation in media is a shallow, sad little person. I grew up watching films, shows, and reading books and comics of people that were not representative of who I am. The whole point is escapism. To explore views and concepts that are not possible for you personally or in reality.

Essentially anyone who pushes identity politics is a cunt who needs to piss off.
Spot on.

Unfortunately I think story writing has suffered as a result to appease this sad little minority.

Your gender/sexuality/ethnicity should not be the sole reason for your existence.

I say this as an "ethnic minority" myself. I could not give a flying fuck about "representation". Make all characters white - and you won't see me shedding tears over it.

Give me good games and characters first and foremost and I'll be happy with that.
 

Verchod

Member
Unless you make a game about the subject of gender, how is it relevant. I don't care about a character in a game other than what directly affects the story. They're not real people!
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Anyone who *needs* representation in media is a shallow, sad little person. I grew up watching films, shows, and reading books and comics of people that were not representative of who I am. The whole point is escapism. To explore views and concepts that are not possible for you personally or in reality.

Essentially anyone who pushes identity politics is a cunt who needs to piss off.
So true.

You dont even get these kinds of manbaby views from kids either. It comes from grown adults who youd think would care more about holding a job and paying off their mortgage.

The most discriminatory people are the ones who always talk gender, sex, race, fat or thin people etc.... Some reason in their head everything they see has a angle about bad people and prejudice.

It's be like the 1980s and everyone watching The Cosby Show and Family Ties. Probably the two most popular comedy shows. One is all black, one is all white. All of them were straight (I think). And all seemed average weight or thin.

To me, it's two hilarious TV shows. Who goes around picking it apart to see if 15 actors represent the world? OK, I thought Mallory was good looking and Tina Yothers was gross, but I'm talking political topics.

Drama queens instead wouldn't watch it for laughs, but would analyze each actor's demographics to see it they fit ratios.
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
So true.

You dont even get these kinds of manbaby views from kids either. It comes from grown adults who youd think would care more about holding a job and paying off their mortgage.

The most discriminatory people are the ones who always talk gender, sex, race, fat or thin people etc.... Some reason in their head everything they see has a angle about bad people and prejudice.

It's be like the 1980s and everyone watching The Cosby Show and Family Ties. Probably the two most popular comedy shows. One is all black, one is all white. All of them were straight (I think). And all seemed average weight or thin.

To me, it's two hilarious TV shows. Who goes around picking it apart to see if 15 actors represent the world? OK, I thought Mallory was good looking and Tina Yothers was gross, but I'm talking political topics.

Drama queens instead wouldn't watch it for laughs, but would analyze each actor's demographics to see it they fit ratios.

The sad, ironic thing is - its always the people who are the most privileged that cry about these things. Most folks are, as you said, more focused on relaxing after a hard days job and just want to shoot the shit, talk/play games, and worry about things that actually are important. Mortgages, bills, family problems, dating, etc.

But the kiddos/man-children who have gotten everything on a silver platter? Whose mommies and daddies who pay for their rents and bills? They are the ones crying about how awful the world is, how everyone else is privileged, how the world hates [x] and wants to kill [y].

They need a reality check.
 

mitch1971

Member
It's be like the 1980s and everyone watching The Cosby Show and Family Ties. Probably the two most popular comedy shows. One is all black, one is all white. All of them were straight (I think). And all seemed average weight or thin.

To me, it's two hilarious TV shows. Who goes around picking it apart to see if 15 actors represent the world? OK, I thought Mallory was good looking and Tina Yothers was gross, but I'm talking political topics.
I caught cosby show one night switching channels ( all 4 in the uk), an episode where the dad was playing basketball in the backyard with his son. Mother and I was hooked from then on. Also, was an avid watcher of family ties when it hit uk screens. Never thought of the skin colour at all. To me they were both just funny shows.

I'd like to here your views on Mallory and Tina in present day. :)
 
You're assumptions of why I made this topic is very condescending and yes I was very upset about the whole situation. I made this topic about 4 days after the incident happen and only made it because it was bothering me a lot. The reason why it bothered me so much is because in the industry if you are labeled homophobic, companies and investors etc won't want to deal with you at all.

The co-founder of the studio is someone who I have worked with and he is very down to earth and humble guy. He has a sister and neice who are lesbians and a one of his nephews is gay and is very close to all of them. So yes someone accusing them of being homophobic because they wouldn't change a character in a story, one that he came up with is very disrespectful. So no it's not just a mere accusation, it can be very damaging to the studio's reputation if it spreads around in the industry when they are looking for funding or a publishing deal.
People are way too quick to throw around words like Homophobic, transphobic, racist etc these days. It's like they don't realize they are erasing the actual meaning of these words, they are now just labels for anyone who dares to have their own thought process. You don't have to say anything negative or display actual hatred towards any group anymore, all you have to do is upset someone who grew up with twitter and you'll automatically earn that label in their eyes even if they know nothing else about you.
 

rnlval

Member
Long story short.The studio I'm working with on a project needed to bring in a writer to help flesh out the story and the lore of the universe they created which centers around 5 main characters. So when the writer came in for an interview and was brief on the story, he asked are there any LGBTQ characters in there. He was told no there isn't and he said well would you mind changing one of the characters to be gay or lesbian. He was told sorry but the characters already have background stories and they didn't want to change it. So the guy gets upset and said sorry but I can't work here if you aren't willing to make the project LGBTQ friendly and said they were being homophobic. Mind you, there are three LGBTQ staff members in the team.

I can understand he doesn't want to work on the story because of his preference but to label them homophobic gets my blood boiling. I had to bite my tongue.
The safe method is user-defined character generation, hence end-user experience would cater for ALL without pushing for a certain political agenda. The writer candidate is an activist. Remember, LGBTQ is an extreme minority.
 
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I caught cosby show one night switching channels ( all 4 in the uk), an episode where the dad was playing basketball in the backyard with his son. Mother and I was hooked from then on. Also, was an avid watcher of family ties when it hit uk screens. Never thought of the skin colour at all. To me they were both just funny shows.

I'd like to here your views on Mallory and Tina in present day. :)
The Cosby show was HUGE in the US in the 1980's, everyone I knew watched it, even in it's 5th season it averaged 40 million viewers.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I'd like to here your views on Mallory and Tina in present day. :)
LOL. Let's stick to 35 years ago!

Something must be wrong with Mallory because she's 56 years old, but looks 70. She started looking really ghoulish in her 40s like she's one of those monsters coming out of Skyrim coffins.

Googling Tina Yothers, I cant tell which pics are from what year, but there's some ones which look pretty recent with her in black hair. Some she's thin/average weight, some she's fat.

I'll take the black hair Tina Yothers with decent body.

But if it's fat Tina Yothers vs. modern day Mallory, tough call.
 
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Spot on.

Unfortunately I think story writing has suffered as a result to appease this sad little minority.

Your gender/sexuality/ethnicity should not be the sole reason for your existence.

I say this as an "ethnic minority" myself. I could not give a flying fuck about "representation". Make all characters white - and you won't see me shedding tears over it.

Give me good games and characters first and foremost and I'll be happy with that.
I agree and disagree, it's easy for a straight person to say that because just about everyone in every show we ever watched if you are a certain age was assumed to be straight if not outright confirmed. I grew up in the 80's and we had no real gay characters other than a guy on Dynasty who's father never really accepted he was gay but just acted like it as long as the son didn't talk about it and then Billy Crystal played a gay character on a sitcom for a little while, both of those were shows younger gay people never watched as they weren't meant for younger people.

Back then all you ever heard were negative things about gay people, not just out in public but often times also at home so everyone was afraid to come out and be themselves because they thought that they would be disowned, that their mother & father would hate them and that they'd lose everything and sadly that did happen a lot. It's easy to pretend now that it's always been that way but really a lot of this kind of acceptance has just come on in the past 10-15 years and I am thankful and amazed at how quickly it turned around. The only person I ever heard publicly ever say anything positive about gay people when I was in my teens was Madonna, after that it started to happen more and more, you'd see a tv show character have a sibling come out while visiting but they'd be gone and never spoken of again. Then we got to a point in the 1990's where there were "gay" characters on shows but they'd never actually have a steady love interest and they weren't allowed to show them kiss etc.

We aren't at that point anymore though, now gay people are included far more often in entertainment and I don't think we need to pretend that it's some rare thing anymore, it's not uncommon to see gay characters on shows, gay kids get to see other gay people portrayed positively and most of society isn't going around telling us we are going to hell anymore all while not understanding that we didn't choose to be this way. So when I hear stories like the one told here about that writer I just think it's all about his ego, he probably grew up with twitter telling him he can dictate to others how they are supposed to think, he clearly lacks humility or perspective. He was applying for work, he was asking them for a job they weren't asking him for his approval.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
The Cosby show was HUGE in the US in the 1980's, everyone I knew watched it, even in it's 5th season it averaged 40 million viewers.
Wiki says it was the #1 rated show for 5 years in a row. Ya, everyone watch it at some point.
I agree and disagree, it's easy for a straight person to say that because just about everyone in every show we ever watched if you are a certain age was assumed to be straight if not outright confirmed. I grew up in the 80's and we had no real gay characters other than a guy on Dynasty who's father never really accepted he was gay but just acted like it as long as the son didn't talk about it and then Billy Crystal played a gay character on a sitcom for a little while, both of those were shows younger gay people never watched as they weren't meant for younger people.

Back then all you ever heard were negative things about gay people, not just out in public but often times also at home so everyone was afraid to come out and be themselves because they thought that they would be disowned, that their mother & father would hate them and that they'd lose everything and sadly that did happen a lot. It's easy to pretend now that it's always been that way but really a lot of this kind of acceptance has just come on in the past 10-15 years and I am thankful and amazed at how quickly it turned around. The only person I ever heard publicly ever say anything positive about gay people when I was in my teens was Madonna, after that it started to happen more and more, you'd see a tv show character have a sibling come out while visiting but they'd be gone and never spoken of again. Then we got to a point in the 1990's where there were "gay" characters on shows but they'd never actually have a steady love interest and they weren't allowed to show them kiss etc.

We aren't at that point anymore though, now gay people are included far more often in entertainment and I don't think we need to pretend that it's some rare thing anymore, it's not uncommon to see gay characters on shows, gay kids get to see other gay people portrayed positively and most of society isn't going around telling us we are going to hell anymore all while not understanding that we didn't choose to be this way. So when I hear stories like the one told her about that writer I just think it's all about his ego, he probably grew up with twitter telling him he can dictate to others how they are supposed to think, he clearly lacks humility or perspective. He was applying for work, he was asking them for a job they weren't asking him for his approval.
I get what your saying. My parents watched Dynasty a lot. I never watched it, but all I remember was the gay guy was blonde and Emma Samms and Heather Locklear were hot as hell. lol

I dont remember widespread gay bashing stigma back then, since I cared more about watching hockey, cartoons and comedy shows but I dont doubt it. I'm sure it happened. For example, one of my fav shows Three's Company always made fun of Jack pretending to be gay. And he'd do it in the "obvious gay guy way".

The difference though is modern day has acceptance from LBGTQ in media a lot more than back then, combined with the community not liking being outed as "they are no different than everyone else". So if that's what's wanted, then for media most plots why do writers have to go out of their way to show someone is straight or gay?

Even if a game or tv show does, which kind of gay is the best one to show? The flamboyant one? Or the "I cant tell he's gay unless someone told me way"?

If a tv show or game shows a flamboyant one and low key gay people grill them, who is right?

If a tv show or game shows a low key one and flamboyant gay people grill them, who is right?

I guess one way to cover it is have two gay men. And then to make lesbians, bi and trans, you also have to have them too or else it looks like only gay guys are getting the spotlight.

No writers seem to have someone is bi. So for anyone who is bi, you'd need a writer to have a script showing someone goes both ways even though it has nothing to do with the main plot. At least I dont remember any bi characters off the top of my head.

That's probably why most media stick to non-sexuality and non-religious characters. It's unnecessary fuel to add to fires unless the plot calls for it like a married couple or a family going to church. In gaming, its even less important because most games have no real plot anyway and if it does, most of the time the character's role is just to kill anything in the way and find the king boss.

Nothing stops writers from telling viewers in every game or tv show what sexuality the characters are from the first episode/level to set the tone, but unless it's an important factor for the 72 TV episodes or 12 game levels, nobody will do it. And most people wont care.
 
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Wiki says it was the #1 rated show for 5 years in a row. Ya, everyone watch it at some point.

I get what your saying. My parents watched Dynasty a lot. I never watched it, but all I remember was the gay guy was blonde and Emma Samms and Heather Locklear were hot as hell. lol

I dont remember widespread gay bashing stigma back then, since I cared more about watching hockey, cartoons and comedy shows but I dont doubt it. I'm sure it happened. For example, one of my fav shows Three's Company always made fun of Jack pretending to be gay. And he'd do it in the "obvious gay guy way".

The difference though is modern day has acceptance from LBGTQ in media a lot more than back then, combined with the community not liking being outed as "they are no different than everyone else". So if that's what's wanted, then for media most plots why do writers have to go out of their way to show someone is straight or gay?

Even if a game or tv show does, which kind of gay is the best one to show? The flamboyant one? Or the "I cant tell he's gay unless someone told me way"?

If a tv show or game shows a flamboyant one and low key gay people grill them, who is right?

If a tv show or game shows a low key one and flamboyant gay people grill them, who is right?

I guess one way to cover it is have two gay men. And then to make lesbians, bi and trans, you also have to have them too or else it looks like only gay guys are getting the spotlight.

No writers seem to have someone is bi. So for anyone who is bi, you'd need a writer to have a script showing someone goes both ways even though it has nothing to do with the main plot. At least I dont remember any bi characters off the top of my head.

That's probably why most media stick to non-sexuality and non-religious characters. It's unnecessary fuel to add to fires unless the plot calls for it like a married couple or a family going to church. In gaming, its even less important because most games have no real plot anyway and if it does, most of the time the character's role is just to kill anything in the way and find the king boss.

Nothing stops writers from telling viewers in every game or tv show what sexuality the characters are from the first episode/level to set the tone, but unless it's an important factor for the 72 TV episodes or 12 game levels, nobody will do it. And most people wont care.
Yeah I don't like if something is put in there just to meet a quota, it has to be relevant to the plot or there is no need for it to be there regardless of what it is. If the person is never going to have a home life and we'll never see or hear from or about the person they are involved with (if anyone) we don't really need to know if it's a guy or a girl, you can really just leave that up to the player's imagination.
 

tygertrip

Member
As a gay gamer who lurks more than participates, I had to break my silence to say: please make it stop. This topic was clearly intended to start a thread bashing "woke" culture (as was this same person's thread in August 2021 about female character design). This discussion lacks any nuance, compassion, or maturity, and it is, to be quite frank, dumb. It has devolved to the point where we now have someone not in the queer community offering their opinion of what letters should make up LGBTQ+ and trying to divide gay, lesbian, and bi individuals from their trans brothers and sisters. All I have to say to that is -- seriously fuck off. Lock this thread. It's click-bait nonsense and reveals the worst parts of gaming culture.
Who are you to tell people what opinions they are allowed to express?
 
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tygertrip

Member
So maybe the answer is don't have damaging portrayals of queer people in gaming? Hire queer people for your writers' room who can provide checks and balances when a bunch of non-queer people try to take a queer character in a damaging direction.

Your argument about diversity is bothersome to me. You're basically saying, "Diversity is too hard so we really shouldn't even bother. What if it goes wrong?" You fear the hypothetical that you don't even try. I know someone (a gay man) who won't hire gay people because he fears a Me Too-claim. That same person didn't hire what he viewed as a very qualified black woman because he feared if something went wrong he wouldn't be able to fire her. Both are totally fucked positions to take (and speak more about him than gay or black/female candidates). Diversity is more than just putting x diverse person in a game/film/TV show or hiring y diverse person for a certain position. The next step is making sure the environment that character/employee exists in is safe for them and respectful of their views so that shit doesn't actually go wrong.
Everyone has their own problems. Grow up. The world does not cater to you or I.
 
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tygertrip

Member
No -- not what I said at all. I don't think that, and I think most queer people don't think that. At the risk of speaking for "most" queer people, I think queer people DO want to see themselves represented on their screens, but they do not need to nor want to see themselves represented in everything on their screens. Diversity doesn't always mean diversity WITHIN a project. Diversity should mean diversity AMONG projects. Representation matters. A lot. Being a closeted gay boy seeing a gay character in my video games would have been fucking amazing and uplifting and powerful and confidence-boosting at a time when I probably needed that the most.

My larger point was this topic about one (alleged) incident has turned unnecessarily angry and dumb. I think these conversations should be had. I think they are interesting and important. But when it veers into vitriol and outrage and anger and digs with no moderation, it becomes counterproductive. People have forgotten how to have a fucking conversation or debate without the outrage meter going through the roof. It's exhausting and dumb.
The hypocrisy on display here is astounding. Typical "woke" attitude.
 

tygertrip

Member
I agree and disagree, it's easy for a straight person to say that because just about everyone in every show we ever watched if you are a certain age was assumed to be straight if not outright confirmed. I grew up in the 80's and we had no real gay characters other than a guy on Dynasty who's father never really accepted he was gay but just acted like it as long as the son didn't talk about it and then Billy Crystal played a gay character on a sitcom for a little while, both of those were shows younger gay people never watched as they weren't meant for younger people.

Back then all you ever heard were negative things about gay people, not just out in public but often times also at home so everyone was afraid to come out and be themselves because they thought that they would be disowned, that their mother & father would hate them and that they'd lose everything and sadly that did happen a lot. It's easy to pretend now that it's always been that way but really a lot of this kind of acceptance has just come on in the past 10-15 years and I am thankful and amazed at how quickly it turned around. The only person I ever heard publicly ever say anything positive about gay people when I was in my teens was Madonna, after that it started to happen more and more, you'd see a tv show character have a sibling come out while visiting but they'd be gone and never spoken of again. Then we got to a point in the 1990's where there were "gay" characters on shows but they'd never actually have a steady love interest and they weren't allowed to show them kiss etc.

We aren't at that point anymore though, now gay people are included far more often in entertainment and I don't think we need to pretend that it's some rare thing anymore, it's not uncommon to see gay characters on shows, gay kids get to see other gay people portrayed positively and most of society isn't going around telling us we are going to hell anymore all while not understanding that we didn't choose to be this way. So when I hear stories like the one told her about that writer I just think it's all about his ego, he probably grew up with twitter telling him he can dictate to others how they are supposed to think, he clearly lacks humility or perspective. He was applying for work, he was asking them for a job they weren't asking him for his approval.
You are right. Attitudes have changed so much in the last 50 years, these little crybaby zoomers have no idea. I remember, in the 80s, being *so* thankful I was straight, because of how hated homosexuals were. I'm very sorry you went through that, I can't imagine.
 
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tygertrip

Member
I agree and disagree, it's easy for a straight person to say that because just about everyone in every show we ever watched if you are a certain age was assumed to be straight if not outright confirmed. I grew up in the 80's and we had no real gay characters other than a guy on Dynasty who's father never really accepted he was gay but just acted like it as long as the son didn't talk about it and then Billy Crystal played a gay character on a sitcom for a little while, both of those were shows younger gay people never watched as they weren't meant for younger people.

Back then all you ever heard were negative things about gay people, not just out in public but often times also at home so everyone was afraid to come out and be themselves because they thought that they would be disowned, that their mother & father would hate them and that they'd lose everything and sadly that did happen a lot. It's easy to pretend now that it's always been that way but really a lot of this kind of acceptance has just come on in the past 10-15 years and I am thankful and amazed at how quickly it turned around. The only person I ever heard publicly ever say anything positive about gay people when I was in my teens was Madonna, after that it started to happen more and more, you'd see a tv show character have a sibling come out while visiting but they'd be gone and never spoken of again. Then we got to a point in the 1990's where there were "gay" characters on shows but they'd never actually have a steady love interest and they weren't allowed to show them kiss etc.

We aren't at that point anymore though, now gay people are included far more often in entertainment and I don't think we need to pretend that it's some rare thing anymore, it's not uncommon to see gay characters on shows, gay kids get to see other gay people portrayed positively and most of society isn't going around telling us we are going to hell anymore all while not understanding that we didn't choose to be this way. So when I hear stories like the one told her about that writer I just think it's all about his ego, he probably grew up with twitter telling him he can dictate to others how they are supposed to think, he clearly lacks humility or perspective. He was applying for work, he was asking them for a job they weren't asking him for his approval.
You are right. Attitudes have changed so much in the last 50 years, these little crybaby zoomers have no idea. I remember, in the 80s, being *so* thankful I was straight, because of how hated homosexuals were. I'm very sorry you went through that, I can't imagine.
 
You are right. Attitudes have changed so much in the last 50 years, these little crybaby zoomers have no idea. I remember, in the 80s, being *so* thankful I was straight, because of how hated homosexuals were. I'm very sorry you went through that, I can't imagine.
As much as I can't stand the wokeness in today's gaming industry and TV, I can attest to how much attitudes have changed. I'm turning 40 soon. In the 90's it would've been brutal to be openly gay. I remember the one clearly identifiable gay guy in my highschool being bullied and mocked savagely. But the thing is, just like with race, attitudes already shifted to acceptance well over a decade ago.

So it's downright insulting to have writers, like the guy mentioned in the OP, force feed their lgbtq characters into almost every game and worse attack others for not going along with their agendaSame with the people who think white=white privilege and that black people are so severely repressed. It's gotten out of hand.

It will continue to be a problem until a more rational mindset develops. Nobody cared about ellie being a lesbian back in 2013 but ten years later, the Naughty Dogs of the industry have created a bigger problem by making every other character gay or Trans. Abby with her rediculous looking physique and every other note you pick up and read in that game apparently written by an lgbtq character. Or like what BFV did with female soldiers and their subsequent attacks on people unhappy with the woke agenda.

It's not some terrible injustice to me or anything but it's super obnoxious and often times insulting. It hurts the quality and immersion of games too when they're so ridiculously over represented.
 
This shit get deeper than what we think. Remember they said Ice-Man is gay? Should we expect an x-men game where they put him in effeminate clothes and kissing a guy?
 
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