Support NeoGAF

[DontBeThatGuy]

This. Pay fair market wages, hire nonviolent felons, increase benefits and you'll have no trouble filling vacancies

I grew up in a small town with lots of farmers and the thought of them increasing benefits(or having any benefits at all) for 99% of the people working there certainly makes me laugh. (or paying them anywhere close to a living wage)

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Interesting. So "Big Farm" is still the evil culprit!

But to be fair, I don't know where the other costs lie. Transportation? Storage? What's the profit margin for farming?

Packaging, transportation, storage, commodities speculation, etc. They touch a bit on the profit margins for farms in the article. A buy local mindset can mean more money for farms and decreases in all other costs. Better solutions for food waste could also lead to savings for consumers (and the environment).

 

[Super_Cobra]

It's funny because a lot of farms here in south Ga are always putting signs at Mexican stores looking for workers. I see less and less people working the fields now. Specially on onion season.

 

[Two Words]

Seems to me like one way or another, a working economy needs a large population doing the dirty work for unfairly low wages for it to exist as we currently expect it to work. It has typically been undocumented immigrants filling those spots currently. We need to make the choice of either allowing those undocumented workers to be here and take those jobs and be okay with them being here and not being paid fairly or not allow them to be here and expect our economy to change.

 

[JABEE]

The GOP solution to this is defacto slavery via the penal system. You need cheap labor and can't find it? Contact the nearest private penitentiary and your worries will go away.

The other solution is the solution that has existed forever. Exploit migrant workers and create a transient population with no support system or understanding of their legal rights lowering the bar for all workers in this country.

It's a nice strategy for the farm owners and corporations. It has worked great for them.

 

[LegendofJoe]

The other solution is the solution that has existed forever. Exploit migrant workers and create a transient population with no support system or understanding of their legal rights lowering the bar for all workers in this country.

It's a nice strategy for the farm owners and corporations. It has worked great for them.

That's getting harder to do now though, as the article explains. America isn't the shining beacon on the hill that it once was.

 

[Media]

I touched on this in another thread. I spent my teen years working along side migrant workers in fields and factories. I can confirm that none of the white kids stayed for more than a few days. And I was one of four Americans that worked there summer after summer, two girls were Latinas, and the other was an 75 year old sister of the farm owner who'd been doing it her whole life and could out pick us all lol.

I know the people I used to work for are hurting for work right now.

Like I said in the other thread, the farms where I'm from would compete for workers through wages, houses built on property for them to stay in, free food and childcare, etc. Ruby (the old lady I worked for) treated them all like family.

 

[Rentahamster]

Seems to me like one way or another, a working economy needs a large population doing the dirty work for unfairly low wages for it to exist as we currently expect it to work. It has typically been undocumented immigrants filling those spots currently. We need to make the choice of either allowing those undocumented workers to be here and take those jobs and be okay with them being here and not being paid fairly or not allow them to be here and expect our economy to change.

*looks at income inequality statistics*

Possibly, but I have some doubts.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

Is there a way to have a modern, responsible, fair paying, reliably farm economy that treats its workers well, while also producing food at a reasonable price?

Probably not yet, but this is a situation where the market will need to correct itself. That is, unless they're given more subsidies from the government allows corporate farming to kick the can down the road some more.

 

[Captain Zyrain]

Seems to me like one way or another, a working economy needs a large population doing the dirty work for unfairly low wages for it to exist as we currently expect it to work. It has typically been undocumented immigrants filling those spots currently. We need to make the choice of either allowing those undocumented workers to be here and take those jobs and be okay with them being here and not being paid fairly or not allow them to be here and expect our economy to change.

Lets have kids blow off high school.. or put it off a few years. Everyone 14-18 needs to report to a farm and pick! This will give them some good experience, teach them the benefit of teamwork and hard work, and we can pay them pennies! Best part is.. no matter how old the farm is.. the kids stay the same age! Hey-oh!

Probably not yet, but this is a situation where the market will need to correct itself. That is, unless they're given more subsidies from the government allows corporate farming to kick the can down the road some more.

Also this. I don't think it'll happen anytime soon. We can hope.

 

[Neo C.]

Engineers should hurry up with automation in this field. I read about small robots doing farmer jobs years ago, it surprises me we haven't seen more than prototypes since then.

 

[Byakuya769]

No sympathy; if you have trouble filling job vacancies, raise wages.

.

 

[Nafai1123]

Perfect jobs for the economically anxious.

 

[Kayhan]

Maybe try increasing salaries so citizens can live on the wage you are offering.

"We need more desperate people who will work for pennies."

 

[Captain Zyrain]

Engineers should hurry up with automation in this field. I read about small robots doing farmer jobs years ago, it surprises me we haven't seen more than prototypes since then.

So, yeah, automation fixes this shortage. What happens to the people who were here for the work? It seems like this "advance" in tech would dis-proportionally impact certain demographics in the USA over others.

 

[The Kree]

I like that the case for Mexican immigration is built on exploitative labor. Like, that's the best we can do. LOL

 

[finalflame]

So, yeah, automation fixes this shortage. What happens to the people who were here for the work? It seems like this "advance" in tech would dis-proportionally impact certain demographics in the USA over others.

I never understand how people can be against automation and technological advances because it puts people out of work. Simply put, if the job can be automated, it should be. It's not the job of technology to worry that your replaceable job can be done by machines. We need to, instead, invest in education and creating new jobs to replace the old jobs that are being phased out.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I don't think anyone was under the illusion that business's don't like high levels of cheap foreign labour, were they? They have everything to gain and nothing to lose from it.

 

[Captain Zyrain]

I never understand how people can be against automation and technological advances because it puts people out of work. Simply put, if the job can be automated, it should be. It's not the job of technology to worry that your replaceable job can be done by machines. We need to, instead, invest in education and creating new jobs to replace the old jobs that are being phased out.

Oh, I'm not against it, I'm just logically looking at the next step, OR the barrier that would stop it from being implemented.

Protests etc from people who would be losing their jobs to "machines". Didn't something similar happen in the 80's with auto manufacturing becoming more and more automated?

Maybe somehow include job training programs or something for those impacted? Though if a large portion of those impacted are illegal immigrants, it could be complicated if you're using Federal dollars/etc.

Automating the little things lets us devote our time to the big, important things. Like Football and drinking! (or Spaceships!)

 

[darklin0]

Everyone calling for raised wages fail to see that the consumers are going to pay for that. The employers will just mark up the price of produce.

 

[ReAxion]

immigrants.... good?

 

[FStop7]

Everyone calling for raised wages fail to see that the consumers are going to pay for that. The employers will just mark up the price of produce.

Of course. And then people will scream bloody murder when the price of a head of lettuce goes up a little bit, let alone 100%.

 

[Fuchsdh]

That's not the issue, Americans just don't want the jobs. They pay low precisely because Americans wouldn't do it even if they paid more, so they can get away with paying migrants less.

They also pay low because illegals don't have much in the way of bargaining power. Fixing illegal immigration has plenty of benefits to wages.

Still a shame we're getting on a decade from the failed Bush plan and still have no improvement to our immigration situation.

Pragmatically, long term it's probably to the benefit for Mexico and these other countries if their people stay put and work to improve their countries; inversely it's probably not to the US' benefit that they stay.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Is this surprising? Of course business-owners want immigration; it drives down the cost of unskilled labour and increases the consumption market, driving up profits. Business owners in every country want more immigration. The fact that businesses want something, however, very clearly does not necessarily make it a good thing.

 

[1044]

The obvious answer is to slash education budgets across the nation.

Or automation of low-skill, low-education jobs. But then our jerbs...

 

[Rentahamster]

Everyone calling for raised wages fail to see that the consumers are going to pay for that. The employers will just mark up the price of produce.

I'm pretty sure most of us in the thread are actually aware of this.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I never understand how people can be against automation and technological advances because it puts people out of work. Simply put, if the job can be automated, it should be. It's not the job of technology to worry that your replaceable job can be done by machines. We need to, instead, invest in education and creating new jobs to replace the old jobs that are being phased out.

The reason for the pessimism is because the populace at large sees mass levels of assistance like that as simply sucking the teat of the system. There is an obsession with having to work 40+ hours a week just to survive and if you're not, you're a freeloader.

So there isn't widespread support to ensure basic levels of care or education because either fuck you I got mine, I don't want to help pay for it, or fuck those minorities.

So yeah automation is coming and has been, but politicians and more than enough people oppose the things that would allow society to cope with those mass loss of jobs.

 

[studyguy]

I'm pretty sure most of us in the thread are actually aware of this.

I don't believe most of the market is though.

We're talking about fruit and veg markets that fucking spin wildly out of control on fluctuations of a quarter or more. The assumption with ag is that there are always two facts of life for the majority of produce. That it's seasonal (meaning prices fluctuate with availiblilty depending on the season) and it's perishable (meaning your return always falls the longer the product remains shelved and there is no return for unpicked crops).

Shit you can't give away produce during high points of the season vs people becoming multimillionares overnight during bad cycles like we just did this year on cilantro shipments from the south being barred due to ecoli scares. The market won't take such wild changes in price. If the profit per acre of crop drops so significantly that the farmer can't produce a profit due to rising costs without raising sales price then the market doesn't go... oh let me buy at a higher price. It says fuck you, the farm shuts down and the market just imports the crop instead.

 

[NandoGip]

The true solution is to increase the cost of food and to increase minimum wage. Imagine the backlash though if any politician ever said those words though.

 

[entremet]

Mainstream Republicans know this. It's why Republicans have been dragging their feet on immigration reform. It's also why they tolerate it.

However, the base the Republicans have built need someone to blame for their economic woes. It was Black people in 70/80s and now it's immigrants.

It's the same shitty strategy and it is bad for their business donors. It's kinda funny how they painted themselves into this corner.

 

[Wilsongt]

"there are no jobs!"

"actually..."

"there are no jobs that white people want!"

 

[Frozenprince]

We already have work visas in place.
Expand that to agriculture only jobs for 6 months.
If you overstay your welcome, you lose that ability forever.

Hiring illegal workers is bad for everyone.

Haaahahahahaha.

No, it isn't. It's actually a net positive on the economy.

 

[slit]

Here is where Trump supporters and big business clash. Trump is big business and he has quite the dilemma. Middle America is completely gullible.

 

[woodland]

No sympathy; if you have trouble filling job vacancies, raise wages.

How much do you know about the industry? If you think it's just low-paying private contractors having this problem, you should probably stop posting about it. In New Jersey, working on a public job earns you ~$64 an hour. If you think you can't find a white dude to take that offer, you're daft. Immigration provides a huge benefit to most countries and cutting down on it is hugely bad. Locals often have drug problems, have poorer work ethics (Imagine growing up in a country where work isn't readily available vs treating it as a right), and won't try to protect the company if they make a mistake. Obviously this is a generalization, but there's a reason a lot of the contractors doing public work in NJ have immigrant workers over US ones.

Edit: to clarify on public work, say you're working at a high school and digging a hole. The dude shoveling will get ~$64 regardess of whether or not he's in a union.

 

[Memento_Mori15]

My uncle hired illegals but was paying them 12-15$ an hour, double than minimum wage at the time. Everytime he hired an American, they never did the job as efficiently nor as well. My friend's father, who owns a construction business, also experienced the same.

 

[Goodstyle]

I'm sure they do, but not for a good reason.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

Wow. What's the next step after that? Compulsory agricultural civil service?

On the plus side maybe millenials will finally learn to empathize with the working poor

 

[Condom]

Everyone calling for raised wages fail to see that the consumers are going to pay for that. The employers will just mark up the price of produce.

That's not how price inflation works. Wage increase won't be the same as the increase in price 1 to 1. It's the classic 'why do wage increases/minimum wages even exist' fallacy.

 

[entremet]

My uncle hired illegals but were paying them 12-15$ an hour, double than minimum wage at the time. Everytime he hired an American, they never did the job as efficiently nor as well. My friend's father, who owns a construction business, also experienced the same.

Of course!

There are vast swath of industries that Americans won't apply for, by and large.

We've created a preference for aspiring careerists and have devalued service and labor jobs immensely.

Look how shitty most retail workers perform their jobs?

 

[serenewarfare]

Reminds me of that Ron White bit:

"You want them gone, but when they leave you're gonna wonder where the fuck they went."

 

[Kayhan]

Everyone calling for raised wages fail to see that the consumers are going to pay for that. The employers will just mark up the price of produce.

We should pay workers 1 penny an hour.

Just imagine how cheap groceries will be!

 

[KRod-57]

I like that the case for Mexican immigration is built on exploitative labor. Like, that's the best we can do. LOL

People only come to the US to work when there is greater opportunity here than in their native country. That's not exploitation, that's how most American families got here

 

[Phobophile]

The GOP solution to this is defacto slavery via the penal system. You need cheap labor and can't find it? Contact the nearest private penitentiary and your worries will go away.

That's just straight up de jure slavery. The 13th Amendment lets you get away with this.

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Of course!

There are vast swath of industries that Americans won't apply for, by and large.

We've created a preference for aspiring careerists and have devalued service and labor jobs immensely.

Look how shitty most retail workers perform their jobs?

This isn't true, and I'm worried that such a basic rightwing canard is passed around so easily. The Census Bureau lists 472 potential civilian occupations; only 6 of these are majority immigrant, accounting for less than 1% of the US workforce. To be precise, these majority immigrant roles are:

GRADERS AND SORTERS, AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS
MISCELLANEOUS PERSONAL APPEARANCE WORKERS
PLASTERERS AND STUCCO MASONS
SEWING MACHINE OPERATORS
MISCELLANEOUS AGRICULTURAL WORKERS, INCLUDING ANIMAL BREEDERS
TAILORS, DRESSMAKERS, AND SEWERS

And even the most immigrant dominated of those (graders and sorters) are only 63% comprised of immigrants.

Americans will do most jobs if necessary, but labour conditions as a farm worker are awful and physically destructive. It's not acceptable for anyone to do them, and it is unsurprising that, at the pay offered and with the health and safety conditions available, Americans would at least rather take their chances on welfare; whereas immigrants obviously don't even have these as a choice and bluntly have to do this or starve. Abuse of migrant labour in these sectors is an enormous problem.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

That's just straight up de jure slavery. The 13th Amendment lets you get away with this.

Wouldn't they have to be sentenced to work, though? IIRC, prison jobs are treated as a privilege and are "paid." Don't think prisoners can be forced to work if they don't want to. At least in theory.

Although I agree that the spirit of the amendment is being violated.

 

[Ogodei]

I seem to recall they ended up using convicts to do the work.

But that pretty much only works for agriculture. Wouldn't want imprisoned individuals getting construction tools or slinking in and out of people's hotel rooms.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

Sounds like they need to raise wages then.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

But that pretty much only works for agriculture. Wouldn't want imprisoned individuals getting construction tools or slinking in and out of people's hotel rooms.

I would try to be so passive aggressive as a convict. Bruising the fuck out of fruits and veggies. Would lose them so much money.

 

[Skyball Paint]

My uncle hired illegals but was paying them 12-15$ an hour, double than minimum wage at the time. Everytime he hired an American, they never did the job as efficiently nor as well. My friend's father, who owns a construction business, also experienced the same.

Good on your uncle understanding the value of their skills. I've learned working retail that just because a job is classified as "low-skill" doesn't make it so.

I'd love to see a group of Fortune 500 CEOs spend a whole workday collecting carts in heavy, cold-ass rain, I'd tell you what.

 

[VendettaRed07]

I don't know how Obama ever got the image that he was just letting illegal immigrants roll across the border

Going by the rates of growth prior to his Presidency if this were true the numbers of undocumented Mexican workers would be nearly double what it is know.

This notion that he didn't enforce immigration laws is absolutely ridiculous. If anyone didn't it was Bush.