• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Xbox boss speaks on rumored PlayStation service tiers/consolidation

leo-j

Member
Gamepass has a Games Leaving Soon section. They send you notifications about the games leaving soon on the PC app, the phone app, and on the Xbox dashboard. You can view them at any time.

Whatcha talking about? Or are ya just spewing?
They don’t tell you from day 1. They let you know when they approach the end of subscription.
 
Forza Horizon forces you to pay for the Deluxe edition to play on the actual release (or before "release")... I mean, it depends what you call "release date", but this is certainly not day and date.



I could not fins shenanigans like this for Halo:I... but this is not a reality that you get all MS exclusives day and date, this is a lie and should be treated as such.
I guess it just depends what you consider day one

I personally call day one the day the standard edition releases

We have seen this already many times with games letting players play early with premium editions I think it was BFV that let people in like 11 days early so was that 11 days early release day? I don't count that as release day

I get it though if people consider early access for premium editions as release day then no GamePass does not let players in with players who bought Premium Editions only standard edition
 

Chukhopops

Member
Considering Microsoft has not had a game sell over 5 million copies since the 360 era, putting it in gamepass and getting more long term residual income may make sense to them, but I think it’s less about being able to afford it.

Sony’s gaming division made more than Nintendo and Microsoft combined in 2021, why in the world would they follow the lead of a company’s gaming division who made less than half the money Sony did?
What the hell am I reading?

Halo 5 and Halo MCC sold more than 5 million. Sea of Thieves sold 5 million… just on Steam. And I’m quite sure FH4, Minecraft Dungeons and a couple others did.

You guys are really pulling out nonsense whenever Phil says something.
 
What the hell am I reading?

Halo 5 and Halo MCC sold more than 5 million. Sea of Thieves sold 5 million… just on Steam. And I’m quite sure FH4, Minecraft Dungeons and a couple others did.

You guys are really pulling out nonsense whenever Phil says something.
Plus all this talk of units sold…what matters is how much profit you made.
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
They don’t tell you from day 1. They let you know when they approach the end of subscription.

I don't see why this is an issue, you get plenty of notice and a nice discount if you want to buy the game.
 

Markio128

Member
I think Sony need to do this, I don't know how many copies of Rift Apart and Returnal were sold exactly but probably less than 2 million between them whilst Forza Horizon 5 had millions of paying customers before it even hit Gamepass.
No wonder Sony are all about cross gen this year with those facts staring them in the face, they at least need a subscription service they can put those low selling first party games on after a year before the PC port.
So you’re comparing the sales of 2 games only available on PS5, to a cross-gen xbox game, also available on PC as a valid reason for Sony to offer a subscription service? Great argument. Sony make plenty of profit from their game sales in general. This seems to be the point you are missing.
 

DaGwaphics

Gold Member
That's what i mean. you are the second person in this thread, that cant have a decent argument without relying on pettiness.
did you think by saying MS corporation makes more money than sony would hurt my feelings or something? lol

Not at all. Why would it, you a big time Sony share holder?

I said that to counter the petty narrative you were going with, which is that MS hides the particulars of the Xbox division because they are in some way ashamed/embarrassed by them. When in reality they don't show particulars of any division, even the freakishly profitable ones. It's simply a difference in the way MS as a corporation operates in comparison to Sony.
 
Last edited:
I will be honest here, I will go with narrative 1.

Subscription day1 games is expensive. Not because you cant put your games on day1. but because it takes alot of money to maintain it.

Whatever money you make from that service, need to go back and reinvest in. You cant simply drop your games, and expect them to carry your service. People will leave your service if you do that.

With a company like Sony, they have other business to focus on. They cant risk their money, considering they also have other business to run. This a weird dilemma for them.

It's not a matter of whether they can afford it or not. They can. It's whether they're willing to drop their identity and pursue the same strategy as Microsoft with cloud gaming at the forefront.

They're not going to beat Xbox at it, but they'll still be able to compete.
 
Last edited:

leo-j

Member
What the hell am I reading?

Halo 5 and Halo MCC sold more than 5 million. Sea of Thieves sold 5 million… just on Steam. And I’m quite sure FH4, Minecraft Dungeons and a couple others did.

You guys are really pulling out nonsense whenever Phil says something.
Okay it sold 9.5 million + but that’s the best selling first party game Microsoft has had(since the 360 era).That’s not a big number considering Nintendo is doing 30 million + for many games and Sony is starting to see 20 million for theirs. It’s rare to see a first patty from Microsoft push crazy numbers and gamepass will likely affect that as well.
 
Last edited:

SLB1904

Member
I said that to counter the petty narrative you were going with, which is that MS hides the particulars of the Xbox division because they are in some way ashamed/embarrassed by them. When in reality they don't show particulars of any division, even the freakishly profitable ones.
dude xbox not being profitable is not as controversial as you think.. they are literally investing (you know, spending?) they just bought Bethesda for $7.5b and a bunch of studios, plus all the 3rd party fees for games that are coming and going from gamepass. in what way makes you think they are profitable?
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
So you’re comparing the sales of 2 games only available on PS5, to a cross-gen xbox game, also available on PC as a valid reason for Sony to offer a subscription service? Great argument. Sony make plenty of profit from their game sales in general. This seems to be the point you are missing.

Looking at those sales it's easy to see why a sub service that includes those low selling games, more cross gen games and PC ports are the path Sony are taking. That's the point you are missing.
 
Plus all this talk of units sold…what matters is how much profit you made.

I'm pretty sure MS gaming division won't see profit for a long time; they bought Minecraft for 2+ billions, they bought Bethesda 7.5+ billions, they built their cloud gaming infrastructure for billions.......those have got to count for expenses
 
Last edited:

adamsapple

Gold Member
They don’t tell you from day 1. They let you know when they approach the end of subscription.

They let you know often a month or more in advance both via website updates and the leaving soon segment on the Game Pass console app itself .. not sure what the issue here is ? You have enough time to either play it, or buy it with the 20% discount to own permanently once it leaves the service.
 
Last edited:

MScarpa

Member
Nah I think if they push promo, and release higher budget quality titles more often they will be able to compete. Also gamepass has a fault in it. Sony tells you when games leave while gamepass does not.

Sony has a bigger catalogue than Xbox and can use that to an advantage.
Do you even know what you're talking about? Cause this post has issues 😂
 
I'm pretty sure MS gaming division won't see profit for a long time; they bought Minecraft for 2+ billions, they bought Bethesda 7.5+ billions.......that has got to count for expense
Maybe, but it is only speculation. MS is such a massively profitable company that they often release experimental products that they know will fail. They wouldn’t be making billion dollar purchases if it wasn’t worth their while.
 

Concern

Member
Wrong. Who was laughing at PC ports other than a select few? And according to developers, they were the ones begging to be allowed to release on PC, it wasn't Sony's idea. And Sony said ok.

Funny you want to pretend like it was only a "select few".

The rest of your rant doesn't matter to me. Im not on they will or they won't boat. Like I said before there's no telling what they'll do. I just look forward to the flip flopping that now we're pretending was only a "select few".

Sony copies the gamepass strategy and all of a sudden it will be the best thing ever. That I'm very confident in. Its already been proven with other things.
 

kingfey

Banned
PS Plus an PS Now are supposed to be merged into Spartacus. I assume in the same way they offer the XBL to GPU upgrade.
There are xbox live users, that doesn't have gamepass. Its why gamepass numbers are low. Gamepass numbers include xbox plus pc users. Adding xbox live users would make it 40m to 50m users.

No, it doesn't. MS never shown a number higher than the Sony ones. If they had it, they would have shown it.
ps+ is higher than xbox live. That is fact. But psnow is 3m, while gamepass was 18m in January last year. Whatever lead ps+ has, is covered by gamepass.
Unlike Playstation, xbox needs xbox live. Their 1st games are online. unlike playstation games, which are single player games.
As I remember in the numbers of the last quarter, or the last Sony shared, were around 47M for PS Plus and 3M for PS Now. Services that now will be merged into Spartacus, which is supposed to add a third tier that I think will bring more subs but my prediction is that for the first quarter they will be at 50M.
The service has 46.3m users. It wont hit 50m. They are losing subscribers.

MS doesn't provide the XBL number anymore maybe it's because almost everyone did use the $1 deal to migrate from XBL to GPU (which includes XBL), which is a great deal and I don't see why anyone wouldn't want to use it. And the new users also have $1 GPU deal which also includes XBL, so there's no reaon for new users to go XBL instead of GPU.
That is just false. you need to not have gamepass at all, to use that 1$. And if you want to use the 1$ for 3 years, you need to pay 180$ upfront. New users for gamepass are non gamepass users. Those are the ones who get the 1$. after 3 month period, they pay 15$ a month, or get 60$ a year xbox live.

The last number we had from MS was I think around 18M GP for January last year, and then for June instead of mentioning a number gave a year over year increase. But since we didn't have 2020 june numbers we had to extrapolate them with march and september 2020 numbers, so gave us around 18M for June 2021. Then in September they didn't share anything so I assume didn't have an increase. I personally bet that even if most MS fans already had GP, they got an increase with Halo and Horizon 5 release, so maybe yes they are at around 20-21M.
They had halo, forza. Gamepass numbers should be higher by now.

Regarding remaining people with XBL that for some reason didn't upgrade to GPU there may be some million but for sure they won't be more than the amount of GP subs.
Again, xbox is an online console, unlike playstation. Most 1st party games are online. You need xbox live to play those games. Those numbers should be higher than 25m.

Sony announced they were going to bring PS Now to these other platforms back in 2014, and mentioned it again more recently (seems they will release it this fiscal year) but it's true that MS implemented it before in smartphones and tablets.
They had a deal with MS to use azura. They might be working on that one.

As I mentioned Sony gaming has many branches. Regarding chip shortages, they don't increase the production more because chips don't allow it, but they got enough chips to break gaming history records.
They had 2x more than xbox. And sony isnt the only one that wants these chips.
Everyone is having issues. The chips shortages also causes other issues, such as production, and logistic issues. Both MS and Sony will be affected by these department too. We are also dealing with a pandemic on top of that. All you need is a shutdown from the governments, and cause mass shortage like last time.

We will be in this issues for 4 more years. Its not a simple thing to fix.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I'm pretty sure MS gaming division won't see profit for a long time; they bought Minecraft for 2+ billions, they bought Bethesda 7.5+ billions, they built their cloud gaming infrastructure for billions.......those have got to count for expenses
Depends on the inherent value of the asset. Also MC has sold something like 200 million copies since they bought it 10 years ago. The MC franchise will be worth even more now.

If I buy a house for $1M, it doesn't mean I just lost $1M. Its just tied up in house value as an asset.
 

adamsapple

Gold Member
Phil just trying to inflate expectations for a competitor’s service. So transparent.

Pretty much. He knows Sony won't put their games day one but if people actually believe that and the usual bullshit articles start circulating they will be disappointed when it's announced.

smh he's just answering a question someone at IGN asked him ..

I swear some of y'all think Spencer is fuckin' Palpatine or something.
 
Maybe, but it is only speculation. MS is such a massively profitable company that they often release experimental products that they know will fail. They wouldn’t be making billion dollar purchases if it wasn’t worth their while.

Anything Xbox division got is from their rich daddy, the parent company.....very little from what they truly work on themselves
 
Last edited:

ChiefDada

Member
Not at all. Why would it, you a big time Sony share holder?

I said that to counter the petty narrative you were going with, which is that MS hides the particulars of the Xbox division because they are in some way ashamed/embarrassed by them. When in reality they don't show particulars of any division, even the freakishly profitable ones.
It's not an issue of shame or embarrassment. Most companies won't be singing about their financial losses from atop of the mountain. Phil Spencer framed it the way he was suppose to frame it: game pass is sustainable. It's bankrolled by Microsoft, of course its sustainable. As a publicly traded company you have to be very careful with your words. But if it was profitable at this point in time, he wouldn't hesitate to say so.
 

DaGwaphics

Gold Member
dude xbox not being profitable is not as controversial as you think.. they are literally investing (you know, spending?) they just bought Bethesda for $7.5b and a bunch of studios, plus all the 3rd party fees for games that are coming and going from gamepass. in what way makes you think they are profitable?

I'm not having an argument about Xbox division profits, good or bad. I'm just pointing out that the lack of numbers isn't based on whether or not a division inside of MS is profitable or not.

As to why I think MS has good indicators that the GP model is a good one for them, look no further than the costs of the studio purchases you mention and with Nadella saying that more studios would likely come. They are doing that based on the numbers they are seeing, Xbox was never seeing this kind of investment before GP. Something here has the highest level eyes at MS all a flutter, some of that being speculative I'm sure, but still based on the numbers they are seeing.
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
Depends on the inherent value of the asset. Also MC has sold something like 200 million copies since they bought it 10 years ago. The MC franchise will be worth even more now.

If I buy a house for $1M, it doesn't mean I just lost $1M. Its just tied up in house value as an asset.

It's hilarious how all these profit experts don't know how a balance sheet works.
 
I'm pretty sure MS gaming division won't see profit for a long time; they bought Minecraft for 2+ billions, they bought Bethesda 7.5+ billions, they built their cloud gaming infrastructure for billions.......those have got to count for expenses

Those aqusitions just fall under Microsoft's balance sheet as a capitalised cost. Nothing to do with Xbox
 

Lognor

Banned
Depends on the inherent value of the asset. Also MC has sold something like 200 million copies since they bought it 10 years ago. The MC franchise will be worth even more now.

If I buy a house for $1M, it doesn't mean I just lost $1M. Its just tied up in house value as an asset.
Minecraft has sold that much?! Holy shit! That was a hell of a bargain for Microsoft then. They've made a ton of money on that if they have actually sold 200m copies since they bought it. And don't forget merchandise which is huge with Minecraft. That was an amazing purchase!

Especially when you compare it to Bethesda. LOL! I'm sure MS will make money on that too, but it will take a lot longer.
 

kingfey

Banned
It's not a matter of whether they can afford it or not. They can. It's whether they're willing to drop their identity and pursue the same strategy as Microsoft with cloud gaming at the forefront.

They're not going to beat Xbox at it, but they'll still be able to compete.
That is their main problem. MS hit them with multiple angles. Hardware market, Pc market, cloud market, and gamepass market. Sony cant focus on all these 4. They dont have the resources to do that.
If they get in to gamepass territory, they will need to do day1. Practically draining Sony slowly.
If they get in to cloud market, they will need the infrastructure for that. They will have to pay MS, Amazon or Google. That is giving money to your competitor.
If they get in to pc market day1, they will need to have more studios. God of war took 2 years for pc port. If they do day1, their console release will take time, because of that.

And you know what happens if they try to do all four of them. That is end game for Sony.

Now I see it this way, this is more like the 80s-90s MS. Sony in this way, has no chance of wining against MS.
 

Chukhopops

Member
Okay it sold 9.5 million + but that’s the best selling first party game Microsoft has had(since the 360 era).That’s not a big number considering Nintendo is doing 30 million + for many games and Sony is starting to see 20 million for theirs. It’s rare to see a first patty from Microsoft push crazy numbers and gamepass will likely affect that as well.
The install base isn’t really comparable either when one console outsells the other 2:1. 9.5 million out of 55M is actually comparable to 20 out of 120. Nintendo wasn’t pulling crazy numbers back in the WiiU days but their attach rate was still good.
I'm pretty sure MS gaming division won't see profit for a long time; they bought Minecraft for 2+ billions, they bought Bethesda 7.5+ billions, they built their cloud gaming infrastructure for billions.......those have got to count for expenses
Minecraft is more than paid for at this point though.
 

ChiefDada

Member
I'm not having an argument about Xbox division profits, good or bad. I'm just pointing out that the lack of numbers isn't based on whether or not a division inside of MS is profitable or not.

As to why I think MS has good indicators that the GP model is a good one for them, look no further than the costs of the studio purchases you mention and with Nadella saying that more studios would likely come. They are doing that based on the numbers they are seeing, Xbox was never seeing this kind of investment before GP. Something here has the highest level eyes at MS all a flutter, some of that being speculative I'm sure, but still based on the numbers they are seeing.

100% agree with you here. Microsoft has a vision of where the gaming industry is headed. Their strategy is a bold one and imo very risky; I don't care how how rich Microsoft is, the idea is to keep making money, not invest in ultimate failures.

Personally, I just don't agree with their vision. I think mandating that 1st party titles be on gamepass day 1 is a huge mistake and to a lesser extent believe their emphasis on Series S is unfortunate. A subscription model for 1st party games will inevitably limit the developer's ambition in some form or fashion. Either that or see a flood of microtransactions polluting your games. No other way to circle that square. I would have loved for them to push day 1 release of 3rd party games as the game pass incentive. I think that would have been enough of an incentive while also avoiding placing limitations upon Xbox first party studios. I see many (not all) Xbox gamers complain about not having AAA superhero franchises available on their console. You can thank the game pass model for that.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I'm not having an argument about Xbox division profits, good or bad. I'm just pointing out that the lack of numbers isn't based on whether or not a division inside of MS is profitable or not.

As to why I think MS has good indicators that the GP model is a good one for them, look no further than the costs of the studio purchases you mention and with Nadella saying that more studios would likely come. They are doing that based on the numbers they are seeing, Xbox was never seeing this kind of investment before GP. Something here has the highest level eyes at MS all a flutter, some of that being speculative I'm sure, but still based on the numbers they are seeing.
Exactly.

Apple doesn't split out profits by exact product type either. At most they do "products" and "services". They do Net Sales for iPhone, Macs etc.... But the profit part they vaguely bunch it all together into those two buckets.

Good luck to all trying to figure out profitability for Phones, Macs, Watches and iPads as they are all lumped into Products.
 

kingfey

Banned
Considering Microsoft has rarely (edited for accuracy)had a game sell over 5 million copies since the 360 era, putting it in gamepass and getting more long term residual income may make sense to them, but I think it’s less about being able to afford it.

Sony’s gaming division made more than Nintendo and Microsoft combined in 2021, why in the world would they follow the lead of a company’s gaming division who made less than half the money Sony did?

Source: https://www.alltopeverything.com/top-10-biggest-video-game-companies/?amp
Sir, Halo 5 sold almost 10m copies. Fh4 sold 10m. They can sell 10m copies.

and now they own a 30m selling franchise, not to mention a 240m Minecraft.

And no, Sony made $22b, not double MS and Nintendo.

MS didnt have any big release in 2020, yet they did 13.83, while having half of Sony hardware. Sony had ff7r. and their 1st party big hit titles, yet they did $22b.

If we bring them to same level, MS would have made revenue. But that is not how it works in business world. Having more customers means you make more money. So sony generated more money than MS.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
I don't see why this is an issue, you get plenty of notice and a nice discount if you want to buy the game.
This guy reminds me of the idiot on Era who was flipping a fit because Netflix didn’t have every movie and TV show ever created on it and he couldn’t watch Game of Thrones with it.
 
We have seen this already many times with games letting players play early with premium editions I think it was BFV that let people in like 11 days early so was that 11 days early release day? I don't count that as release day
This is why I switched to "day and date" (which was their slogan for the longest time), if you begin to do that kind of thing the actual release is when the product ship to actual clients. I think that this kind of wording is manipulative (and I am pretty sure that people complained about BFV doing this as well).

This could be considered as a store or some business place that has a "grand opening" months after they actually opened.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
They don’t tell you from day 1. They let you know when they approach the end of subscription.
You expect MS to tell you for each game the date it's leaving from the get go? So if I check a game on GP you want MS to say today that it' leaving GP on September 12, 2022?

Name one sub plan that does that.
 
Sony’s gaming division made more than Nintendo and Microsoft combined in 2021, why in the world would they follow the lead of a company’s gaming division who made less than half the money Sony did?
While I don't like GamePass or PSNow for one bit, I can tell you that when the competition takes 20+ million people and make then pre-pay to play games you will notice. Especially if you had a similar service for YEARS and got a much smaller number of subscriptions with a much bigger installed user base.

Also, MS bought a lot of studios, this is bound to make a difference at some point.
 

Markio128

Member
No they don't. Haven't you heard the self professed PC gamer with no dog in the fight continously tell you that MS are the best in this thread? 🤭😉

MS are beating Sony even though there are millions more PS5s sold than Series X/S. Only here is that fact somehow.

Sony are fine.
The business experts in this thread truly are wasted talent. What are Sony and Nintendo thinking?
Judge Judy Reaction GIF by Agent M Loves Gifs
 
What the hell am I reading?

Halo 5 and Halo MCC sold more than 5 million. Sea of Thieves sold 5 million… just on Steam. And I’m quite sure FH4, Minecraft Dungeons and a couple others did.

You guys are really pulling out nonsense whenever Phil says something.
And they never went that crazy on marketing like Sony did. Hell, Sony could even sell 10m+ Knack 3 if they do the Horizon/Gow/TLOU/Spiderman marketing.
 

Three

Member
It would also be the superior option for cross-gen support: keep native versions on PS5/Xbox Series, stream cloud versions to PS4/XBO.



But it isn't that much different in practice to what cable providers, satellite providers, ISPs etc. already do, right? It's basically like a per-game VOD broken up into monthly installments.

Think back to Blockbuster or Hollywood Video days where if you skipped out on returning a video you rented, you'd have to pay a late fee, possibly cover the cost of the item, and eventually if you kept returning things late or not at all you'd have your membership voided. Same thing here just with digital items and accounts now.
I'm from the UK so maybe it's a little different here. We did have blockbusters here but I never really missed returning a video, good times 😄. In terms of ISPs and TV providers we have minimum contracts like 12 months, 18 months etc. They require credit checks like you are taking out a loan and they get the money for early contract termination if you stop paying. They don't really shrug it off. The non contract ones are paying upfront for a set time period.

Maybe what you describe with a non legally binding service for installments is doable and it can police itself but otherwise it makes it kind of difficult if it's not upfront payments for set time periods without a contract. let's see what they do.
 
Last edited:

kingfey

Banned
While I don't like GamePass or PSNow for one bit, I can tell you that when the competition takes 20+ million people and make then pre-pay to play games you will notice. Especially if you had a similar service for YEARS and got a much smaller number of subscriptions with a much bigger installed user base.

Also, MS bought a lot of studios, this is bound to make a difference at some point.
People who think MS will win anything right now are wrong. These type of thing will need time to fruit.
The problem arises when other services try to do day1 on that service. It attracts other gamers. Now you have other 3rd party devs who see this growth, and would want a part of that pie.
4 years later, and you get a monster.

Netflix was a joke at first. They started slowly from the ground. And now they have 200m users paying $10-$20. That is what happens, when a service like, is left alone. Now everyone is try to do catch up with Netflix.
Netflix gains $2b-$4b a month. That is alot of money for Netflix, which they can pay their dept, and fund new series and tv for their service. They are sustainable business. All of that from dvd and subscription.

There is a reason why subscription are banks for their owners. Only reason why nobody does it, is the cost of building it. And the catalog it needs to sustain it.
 
Last edited:

Billbofet

Member
It's deffp happening and I fully expect it to be praised when it does.
Sony, to me, is like Apple. Once they ape another company's ideas, only then is it wonderful and beyond reproach.
I say bring it on, as it would be a reason to get a PS5 for me personally. I just don't think it will be anywhere near as fully fleshed out and integrated as Gamepass, but can't wait to see them try - honestly.
 

odhiex

Member
Hats off to Phill on his response. Personally, I have a mixed opinion over the subscription future, but I do like them as "option/choice". Gamepass is undoubtedly the major selling point for Xbox and I would like for Sony to compete in this area too.

I don't care who is leading and who will be the winner. There are still a lot of money to be made in the gaming space, so many gamers (potential customers) out there.

Just like in the video streaming space, Netflix is the leader in terms of subscriber numbers. But that doesn't mean their competitors like HBO Max, Disney+, Paramount+ etc cannot offer better value to their consumers. They offered different catalog, sub plan, release model that is different compare to Netflix.

I like Netflix for its vast catalog, but Disney+ has some nice Marvel tv series that I care about. Disney doesn't offer its AAA theatrical movies into the service "day one" (not until 45-90 days from the release date in theaters), Netflix do have their own movie production that released day one on the service. I subscribed to both.

You could make an analogy that XBOX Gamepass is like Netflix, and Sony "PS plus+" is like Disney plus. Both offer different models and catalog of games, and both could still appealing to many users.
 
Top Bottom