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Xbox Cloud Streaming Won't Replace Consoles, Microsoft Says

DarkMage619

Report me if I continue to console war
No, that's not what he said. "if it sounds negative an involves ms or xbox it get posted over and over on gaf". And yes, that is a persecution complex that many here share.
I read it differently than you did. There certainly are plenty of conspiracy theories many share here as well.

I mean, you can't blame them. They do have a history of EEE, FUD, Anti-Trust, Always Online, and making their entire productivity suites pushed into the subscription online/streamed essentially arena and even talks of wanting to make their OS revisions eventually online only "cloud based" in the future with a sub service.

Hard to give the benefit of the doubt, and also, not a "bash" to say a company would love nothing more than to have enough subscribers to never have to spend R&D and production of consumer boxes, just charge them a sub for their always pushing of the Azure and cloud based infrastructures.

All companies would love this. Cut out the middle man.
Most of that has nothing to do with the Xbox platform and the always online thing was reversed before the X1 even came out. Listening to many here Xbox is either joke that shouldn't be taken seriously or a threat to gaming as we know it. Many believe both at the same time even.

It's been 20 years that the Xbox has been a gaming platform and the vast majority of negative conspiracies never transpired. Many of their innovative ideas were copied like standard wireless controllers, hard drives, and achievements. MS' presence in console gaming as been largely positive no matter what they did with Windows, a different unrelated product.

Them claiming that cloud streaming will not replace consoles is consistent with their actions. They released two different speced consoles recently and it would actually be a detriment to their business if they dropped consoles to focus entirely on streaming.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Most of that has nothing to do with the Xbox platform
Eddie Murphy Yes GIF
 

Schmick

Member
How would a streaming only future work exactly? If for example 50 million consoles were sold in a generation how could MS ever make that sort of money from console sales again if they only offered streaming.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
How would a streaming only future work exactly? If for example 50 million consoles were sold in a generation how could MS ever make that sort of money from console sales again if they only offered streaming.

While console hardware becomes profitable eventually, the lions share of revenue and profit these companies make is off of software. (and in MS's case, they want to do that with Services).
 
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Schmick

Member
While console hardware becomes profitable eventually, the lions share of revenue and profit these companies make is off of software. (and in MS's case, they want to do that with Services).
Yes I understand that. There was a message earlier suggesting the Xbox and PS consoles are now making profit so that's probably 6 years of money to make. I'm really saying all this in response to the select group of people suggesting a streaming only future. It doesn't make sense to me. Yes profit is made on software but also from hardware. Why would MS ever give that up.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Yes I understand that. There was a message earlier suggesting the Xbox and PS consoles are now making profit so that's probably 6 years of money to make. I'm really saying all this in response to the select group of people suggesting a streaming only future. It doesn't make sense to me. Yes profit is made on software but also from hardware. Why would MS ever give that up.

It would depend on how the streaming service is set up. If there is a monthly access fee, even a low one of just a few dollars, that's likely more profit per user over the course of a generation than what they make on console (component costs are always eating up the majority of those $499s). Obviously there are costs with needed the servers to run the service and all that, though each machine can be used by multiple people throughout the day.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yea most level headed people knew this from the start.

People always assume that everything is a zero sum game, especially the gaming community. As if allocating money to anything other than single player AAA games is heresy and is contributing directly the the downfall of the medium.

For a space that is so reliant on technical expertise and innovation it is crazy to see so many people actively campaign against innovative new directions the industry may branch out into.

It is in everyones best interest for the gaming audience to grow.

Those same people are also anti-VR gaming too. You'll see it in the threads throughout the year. It's all weird to me.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I'm using replaced in the same sense the executive used it, but if we're talking about Cloud augmenting the current hardware, it does a pretty bang up job of it as it is.

Eventually, maybe in the next 2~3 console cycles, we may very well come to a point where console-harwdare will become obsolete, when the cloud experience becomes indistinguishable in terms of latency and quality.

Why would a Trillion dollar corporation want to make "LESS" money by getting out of the hardware console business after the year 2030?
 

IDKFA

Gold Member
Bullshit.

It's a absolutely guarantee that the streaming/subscription combo will destroy physical media and hardware in less than 10 years. Anybody who can't see this has either been living under a rock or are so attached to their archaic hardware/physical media that they can't face reality.

I'm not even trolling either. This is what I believe 100% will happen.

All it takes is for somebody like MS or Sony to push it along. Starting putting every game ever made on the service and people will drop physical media in a heartbeat.
 
Yes I understand that. There was a message earlier suggesting the Xbox and PS consoles are now making profit so that's probably 6 years of money to make. I'm really saying all this in response to the select group of people suggesting a streaming only future. It doesn't make sense to me. Yes profit is made on software but also from hardware. Why would MS ever give that up.
When you include R&D costs and the first year or two of the consoles losing money, the total profit they make from consoles during a generation is miniscule. It's really all about subscriptions and software sales (mostly in DLC form).

This doesn't include Nintendo of course. They make good money with their hardware.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
When streaming becomes instantaneous it will happen. Makes sense. Probably won't be for a while but the box is going to go away at some point. you see us still using boxes at all in 15-30 years?

100% yes! It's hard to predict anything over 20 years from any date. But in 15 years? 100% so. For some reason, some of you guys are just missing the point of these companies to make console hardware. As yourself why you don't even believe that Nintendo will ever go streaming only. Ask yourself that question and think about it for a minute.

It would depend on how the streaming service is set up. If there is a monthly access fee, even a low one of just a few dollars, that's likely more profit per user over the course of a generation than what they make on console (component costs are always eating up the majority of those $499s). Obviously there are costs with needed the servers to run the service and all that, though each machine can be used by multiple people throughout the day.

You're assuming that each user will sign up to be on each company's streaming service and then "NEVER" cancel at any time. Take a look at these charts for streaming TV companies.




I think MS would rather have a lower profit margin percentage, but more revenue (thus more profit in total dollars). Than a higher profit margin percentage, but less revenue.
 

UltimaKilo

Gold Member
I think MS saw the backlash of trying to force something on gamers. Like an online-only Xbox One, so it's smart to say this. But I think they absolutely believe it's the future.
It is the future, there's no denying that. However, it's clear that it won't be within this decade.
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
Yet.

Eventually? For Xbox, yeah.

Sony? Possibly.

Nintendo? I mean…their clouds are probably 8-bit so I don’t see them doing it.
 

Schmick

Member
When you include R&D costs and the first year or two of the consoles losing money, the total profit they make from consoles during a generation is miniscule. It's really all about subscriptions and software sales (mostly in DLC form).

This doesn't include Nintendo of course. They make good money with their hardware.
Surely there will always be R&D whether there are consoles or not.

But also, how much would AMD lose? I can imagine that the cost of parts supplied to MS from AMD is based on the projected millions of consoles that will be sold. Millions of servers wont be built and so the cost of the servers will go up.

I just think that MS will want to do both, sell hardware and offer cloud gaming. Money can be made from both. Bear in mind also that the Series consoles are proving to be on route to be MS' most successful console ever.
It is the future, there's no denying that. However, it's clear that it won't be within this decade.
For me, cloud is viable alternative. It works really well where I am. Especially since I still have a 1080p TV connected to my Xbox One. So whilst I fully embrace cloud gaming I cannot accept the notion that cloud will replace local hardware. I see a future where cloud and local co-exist.
 

S0ULZB0URNE

Member
Maybe I'm not understanding what you are referencing. A 20ms ping from one machine to another on the same lan seems very high. I can ping a printer on the opposite end of the house with both the printer and PC using wifi and the ping is 2ms. PC to router is just a 1ms from the PCs I have, phones and tablets typically 2-3ms. Maybe that's not what you are talking about. 🤷‍♂️
When you play a game via LAN and check the Ping,It gets as high as 20.
Which is extremely low.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Bullshit.

It's a absolutely guarantee that the streaming/subscription combo will destroy physical media and hardware in less than 10 years. Anybody who can't see this has either been living under a rock or are so attached to their archaic hardware/physical media that they can't face reality.

I'm not even trolling either. This is what I believe 100% will happen.

All it takes is for somebody like MS or Sony to push it along. Starting putting every game ever made on the service and people will drop physical media in a heartbeat.


So what if MS does this stupid thing that you're saying will happen, but Nintendo and Sony don't. Then what? Wouldn't MS have to (at the very least) collude with Sony to pull this heist off?


When you include R&D costs and the first year or two of the consoles losing money, the total profit they make from consoles during a generation is miniscule. It's really all about subscriptions and software sales (mostly in DLC form).

This doesn't include Nintendo of course. They make good money with their hardware.

Not true at all!!! And you're acting as if there wouldn't be any R&D cost for going streaming only. Let's not act as if PC gamers will go streaming only just because MS did. MS would have to keep up with the GPU and the upcoming RAM\SSD race of the of PCs in the 2030s. There's no way that'll be cheap to cover in 5000 server farms all over the world every 2-3 years.
 

twilo99

Member
I've been playing killer instinct on my iphone here and there, its not bad.

There are a lot of games that I want to play but don't want to download on gamepass.

No, but it'll replace the need to download a 100GB game just to try it out to see if you like it or not.

It already has for me.. simply clicking play on a 100gb game is really strange, but it works. Avengers being a good example
 
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DaGwaphics

Member
100% yes! It's hard to predict anything over 20 years from any date. But in 15 years? 100% so. For some reason, some of you guys are just missing the point of these companies to make console hardware. As yourself why you don't even believe that Nintendo will ever go streaming only. Ask yourself that question and think about it for a minute.



You're assuming that each user will sign up to be on each company's streaming service and then "NEVER" cancel at any time. Take a look at these charts for streaming TV companies.





I think MS would rather have a lower profit margin percentage, but more revenue (thus more profit in total dollars). Than a higher profit margin percentage, but less revenue.

New subscribers are testing the service, the better question is what % of Netflix subscribers have had the sub for 1, 2, 5 years or more, etc.

I'm not arguing against the idea that consoles will be around for quite a while coming yet (or forever). Just the point that it's easy to see where an ongoing charge has more potential than a box you make $50 or $60 on over a 7-8 year stretch. Obviously, you have games and service revenue in addition to that, but those would still be a thing with a streaming service if it isn't inclusive. For example, even with the high GPU prices, Nvidia stands to profit more if they can get you to subscribe to GeforceNow.
 
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Desless1

Member
When you play a game via LAN and check the Ping,It gets as high as 20.
Which is extremely low.
No, it does not.

And no, it's extremely high. Stop, what you are saying is simply not true.

In 99,9% on LAN, your latency should be below 1 ms reply, with the norm between 1 to 2 ms reply.

Also, ping is not latency. One more thing, even if Windows gives you feedback with 1 ms reply, the real reply is much lower, just that it reports whole numbers.
 

IDKFA

Gold Member
So what if MS does this stupid thing that you're saying will happen, but Nintendo and Sony don't. Then what? Wouldn't MS have to (at the very least) collude with Sony to pull this heist off?




Not true at all!!! And you're acting as if there wouldn't be any R&D cost for going streaming only. Let's not act as if PC gamers will go streaming only just because MS did. MS would have to keep up with the GPU and the upcoming RAM\SSD race of the of PCs in the 2030s. There's no way that'll be cheap to cover in 5000 server farms all over the world every 2-3 years.

First, how is it stupid? It's a money printing machine.

All MS has to do is offer thousands of games on the service. Ensure all third party titles are on the service from day one, plus a guarantee that no game ever leaves the service. The catch is that this service is only available via a stream/sub combo.

People would lap that shit up. As soon as Sony and Nintendo see how successful it is they'll quickly do the same.

*Mic drop*
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
New subscribers are testing the service, the better question is what % of Netflix subscribers have had the sub for 1, 2, 5 years or more, etc.

I'm not arguing against the idea that consoles will be around for quite a while coming yet (or forever). Just the point that it's easy to see where an ongoing charge has more potential than a box you make $50 or $60 on over a 7-8 year stretch. Obviously, you have games and service revenue in addition to that, but those would still be a thing with a streaming service if it isn't inclusive. For example, even with the high GPU prices, Nvidia stands to profit more if they can get you to subscribe to GeforceNow.

This chart shows the percentage of total subscribers quit per month for each TV sub-service. As you can see Netflix is the best at keeping long-time subs. They and Disney+ lose about 4% of their total userbase every month (but obviously they are added others within these same months).







Plus you guys are forgetting about all the hardware accessories revenue that both MS and Sony are having. Things from.....

- controllers
- media remotes
- console covers
- wireless headsets
- Cameras
- VR headsets
- Adaptive Controller
- Chargers for controllers
- Hard Drives


An all-streaming future will kill most of this revenue.



First, how is it stupid? It's a money printing machine.

All MS has to do is offer thousands of games on the service. Ensure all third party titles are on the service from day one, plus a guarantee that no game ever leaves the service. The catch is that this service is only available via a stream/sub combo.

People would lap that shit up. As soon as Sony and Nintendo see how successful it is they'll quickly do the same.

*Mic drop*


So, how many foolish gamers will there be that actually believe the bolded? More than 5 million? 10 million max?
 
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Ozriel

Member
Ms trying to get gamepass on every device possible, and doing day and date with pc seems like their devaluing their own console.

It like their saying they're not going to replace the Xbox with streaming, but their actions seem otherwise.


This makes no sense.
They aren’t ‘devaluing their console’ by making their games on PC. Two different markets entirely.

So far, there are zero actions from MS that hints at a ‘replacement’ strategy. All their actions are geared towards positioning streaming as a viable alternative to native console gaming.
 

Ozriel

Member
When you include R&D costs and the first year or two of the consoles losing money, the total profit they make from consoles during a generation is miniscule. It's really all about subscriptions and software sales (mostly in DLC form).

This doesn't include Nintendo of course. They make good money with their hardware.

The hardware they’ll be streaming from will be a console of sorts, and will have pretty much the same R&D costs as a regular console generation.
 

ToadMan

Member
Noob quest about xbox consoles, just bought a xss and 80% of the time that i hit home button to return to home screen the console freezes/Black screen for a moment, is this normal ? On ps5 this is so smooth

I found the series X interface to be slow and clunky in multiple aspects - but maybe it’s having a PS5 to compare against… if i didn’t have a PS maybe Xbox would seem fine 🤷‍♂️
 
Those same people are also anti-VR gaming too. You'll see it in the threads throughout the year. It's all weird to me.
It actually makes complete sense that people who think the future is streaming (like me) would also think VR is not the future (also me). Streaming means being constrained to no particular hardware box other than a screen and a controller while simultaneously being able to switch from a game room to a mobile experience on the fly. VR on the other hand means adding more constrains and more hardware to the experience (more cables, a headset, a controller for each hand, a limited play space).
 

EverydayBeast

thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Nobody predicted Netflix streaming and it was a huge wake up call for physical games and movies.
 

Roxkis_ii

Member
This makes no sense.
They aren’t ‘devaluing their console’ by making their games on PC. Two different markets entirely.

So far, there are zero actions from MS that hints at a ‘replacement’ strategy. All their actions are geared towards positioning streaming as a viable alternative to native console gaming.
I disagree. Pc gamers are still gamers. They want to play awesome games just as much as anyone. If Elden Ring was console executive like Bloodborn, it's probably some pc users who would buy a console to play it.

Games are what make consoles attractive. If you can play a console's game anywhere, then that console isn't as attractive.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
It actually makes complete sense that people who think the future is streaming (like me) would also think VR is not the future (also me). Streaming means being constrained to no particular hardware box other than a screen and a controller while simultaneously being able to switch from a game room to a mobile experience on the fly. VR on the other hand means adding more constrains and more hardware to the experience (more cables, a headset, a controller for each hand, a limited play space).

So that should triple explain why Nintendo and Sony will never go streaming-only then. It makes literally zero sense to me to limit game creativity like this. For what? For who? For why?
 

UltimaKilo

Gold Member
For me, cloud is viable alternative. It works really well where I am. Especially since I still have a 1080p TV connected to my Xbox One. So whilst I fully embrace cloud gaming I cannot accept the notion that cloud will replace local hardware. I see a future where cloud and local co-exist.
If you can't see it, you're not looking for out enough. Very unlikely to be any local video games in 30+ years. For the time being, local hardware gaming isn't going anywhere.
 

Topher

Gold Member
If you can't see it, you're not looking for out enough. Very unlikely to be any local video games in 30+ years. For the time being, local hardware gaming isn't going anywhere.

Even if cloud becomes the dominant way of gaming in 30 years, I'd bet there will still be a subset of people who will want local hardware and companies will happily take their money. Just like vinyl records are a minor sector of the music industry, but there are enough there for it to be worth it for music labels to make those records.

So avatar bet? 30 years.....starting now. :messenger_beaming:
 

UltimaKilo

Gold Member
Even if cloud becomes the dominant way of gaming in 30 years, I'd bet there will still be a subset of people who will want local hardware and companies will happily take their money. Just like vinyl records are a minor sector of the music industry, but there are enough there for it to be worth it for music labels to make those records.

So avatar bet? 30 years.....starting now. :messenger_beaming:
Ha! Who knows where we'll all be in 30 years, but it's certainly interesting to think about. I don't think I can imagine it properly. At least, I feel confident that VR will be huge in the next decade.
 
Even if cloud becomes the dominant way of gaming in 30 years, I'd bet there will still be a subset of people who will want local hardware and companies will happily take their money. Just like vinyl records are a minor sector of the music industry, but there are enough there for it to be worth it for music labels to make those records.

So avatar bet? 30 years.....starting now. :messenger_beaming:
The problem with that comparison is that there are dozens of vinyl record players on the market, while with consoles it's quite the opposite. If we assume that in 2052, 95% of gaming is happening over streaming, will Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo really bother spending billions of dollars on R&Ding and manufacturing consoles? I honestly doubt it.
 

Topher

Gold Member
The problem with that comparison is that there are dozens of vinyl record players on the market, while with consoles it's quite the opposite. If we assume that in 2052, 95% of gaming is happening over streaming, will Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo really bother spending billions of dollars on R&Ding and manufacturing consoles? I honestly doubt it.

I definitely think the console gamers will be the first to move to streaming. PC gamers will hold on to local gaming for as long as they can. CPUs, GPUs, storage, etc. will all still be needed in the cloud so nothing stopping Nvidia, AMD, etc. from continuing to sell to individuals as well as the game streaming companies.
 
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I definitely think the console gamers will be the first to move to streaming. PC gamers will hold on to local gaming for as long as they can. CPUs, GPUs, storage, etc. will all still be needed in the cloud so nothing stopping Nvidia, AMD, etc. from continuing to sell to individuals as well as the game streaming companies.
Yeah, I also think PC will never die. PC bros love customization and they'll pay a lot of money for it.
 
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Schmick

Member
If you can't see it, you're not looking for out enough. Very unlikely to be any local video games in 30+ years. For the time being, local hardware gaming isn't going anywhere.
Fine if you want to look 30+ years in the future than maybe.

Now I'm wondering whether I'll be physically able to play games in 30+ years and whether NeoGaf will still exist.
 

T-Cake

Member
Having now rid myself of all local hardware (apart from a semi-potato PC) I'm getting more invested in the cloud, especially with Game Pass. (Not much choice on the PlayStation side as their PS+ client on PC is absolute trash - it doesn't even recognise a DualSense controller nearly two years after its introduction!)

I wonder what the timescale is for XBox to offer the full power of the Series X hardware with 4K streaming. It's the bit of the puzzle that's missing.
 
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