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Xbox has unveiled a new publishing division focused on ‘cloud-native’ games

kingfey

Banned
Except it isn’t that easy. Barring things out of your control like theft or natural disasters, which already have incredibly low chances to begin with, the only thing you have to worry about it not being a dumbass with your physical items. Same with a car, or plates. These can feasibly last for multiple generations more without an issue. Hell, they *have* lasted two generations as is.

That isn’t “giving up rights”. Meanwhile subscribing to a streaming service? Promoting cloud-based gaming that guarantees that you are at the mercy of a developer that *will* shut down the game? That is giving up your rights.
Discs that we have now, are full of bugs, because the devs dont give a crap about fixing their games. It already started. Cloud and subscription arent the problem.
The problem started, when we stopped holding them accountable for these day1 problems.

Every game now requires you to download day1 patch. Why do they do that? Why cant they release complete edition. Then you have them putting MTX on single player games. You have them holding out actual important content, in order to sell it as a dlc.

These problems arent from subscription or cloud gaming. These are the result of us gamers, not voicing our concern.
Cloud gaming and subcription isnt your enemy. They arent taking anything from you, compared to what they are doing to your actual copies, which you bought.
Cyberpunk2077, Vanguard, Far cry 6, battlefield 2042, crossfire x, and Babylon fall. Those are games people paid money, and the devs fucked them over, because they dont give a crap about gamers. That is your issues that you need to voice your concern on. Not cloud and subscription games.
I am tired of getting treated like that. I am tired of having to spend my hard earned cash, just to get shit experience like that.
 
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Claus Grimhildyr

Vincit qui se vincit
Discs that we have now, are full of bugs, because the devs dont give a crap about fixing their games. It already started. Cloud and subscription arent the problem.
The problem started, when we stopped holding them accountable for these day1 problems.

Every game now requires you to download day1 patch. Why do they do that? Why cant they release complete edition. Then you have them putting MTX on single player games. You have them holding out actual important content, in order to sell it as a dlc.

These problems arent from subscription or cloud gaming. These are the result of us gamers, not voicing our concern.
Cloud gaming and subcription isnt your enemy. They arent taking anything from you, compared to what they are doing to your actual copies, which you bought.
Cyberpunk2077, Vanguard, Far cry 6, battlefield 2042, crossfire x, and Babylon fall. Those are games people paid money, and the devs fucked them over, because they dont give a crap about gamers. That is your issues that you need to voice your concern on. Not cloud and subscription games.
I am tired of getting treated like that. I am tired of having to spend my hard earned cash, just to get shit experience like that.

 

adamsapple

Gold Member
Except it isn’t that easy. Barring things out of your control like theft or natural disasters, which already have incredibly low chances to begin with, the only thing you have to worry about it not being a dumbass with your physical items. Same with a car, or plates. These can feasibly last for multiple generations more without an issue. Hell, they *have* lasted two generations as is.

That isn’t “giving up rights”. Meanwhile subscribing to a streaming service? Promoting cloud-based gaming that guarantees that you are at the mercy of a developer that *will* shut down the game? That is giving up your rights.

You can buy a physical copy of Destiny 1 for $2 right now, but that will be as good as a coaster.

In today's day and age a lot of physical media also requires either a one time check in to download critical launch day stuff or persistently connected online eg GT7. Owning a physical media of a now-gen game doesn't guarantee anything these days unlike the PS2 era where the game came on disc and that was that.
 

Claus Grimhildyr

Vincit qui se vincit
You can buy a physical copy of Destiny 1 for $2 right now, but that will be as good as a coaster.
Yes, I literally stated that *most* physical games are complete on disk. Not all. Games like Destiny are the exception, not the rule.

In today's day and age a lot of physical media also requires either a one time check in to download critical launch day stuff or persistently connected online eg GT7. Owning a physical media of a now-gen game doesn't guarantee anything these days unlike the PS2 era where the game came on disc and that was that.

I would suggest you expand your horizons and not focus specifically on a very small group of AAA games.
 

adamsapple

Gold Member
I would suggest you expand your horizons and not focus specifically on a very small group of AAA games.

Let's be real, almost every AAA or even AA game comes with day 1 patches. My point was that unlike the olden days, simply owning a physical copy of the game does not mean you have a functional version of the game. Even games that don't necessarily have online components need at least one check in for downloading said patches.
 

Claus Grimhildyr

Vincit qui se vincit
Let's be real, almost every AAA or even AA game comes with day 1 patches.
And? That doesn’t mean the game is unplayable or even requires them to have a “Good” experience.

My point was that unlike the olden days, simply owning a physical copy of the game does not mean you have a functional version of the game.
Those styles of games are in the minority. The vast, vast, *vast* majority of physical games even released this gen and last gen are completely functional games on disk. This is simply related.

Even games that don't necessarily have online components need at least one check in for downloading said patches.
Very few games require this, as I have stated numerous times. It is incredibly easy to check. Do some research before you make claims that are easily disprovable.
 

adamsapple

Gold Member
Very few games require this, as I have stated numerous times. It is incredibly easy to check. Do some research before you make claims that are easily disprovable.

You're right, it is very easy to check. Unfortunately I couldn't find any relevant articles for the last year or so, but this article all the way back from 2014 is eye opening:


More than 1/3rd of major game releases required day 1 updates in 2014.

That number has undoubtedly increased tremendously over the years, especially over the last couple of years with development during the pandemic.

So while you will still be able to play many of those disc based games day 1, they just won't be fully featured at launch as the developers intended and may have various crippling bugs and performance issues.

Games like Elden Ring, Horizon FW, Dying Light 2 all had key day 1 patches. In case of ER, From asked DF not to do any analysis before the patch, Horizon's patch fixed various pop-in related issues etc.
 
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Claus Grimhildyr

Vincit qui se vincit
You're right, it is very easy to check. Unfortunately I couldn't find any relevant articles for the last year or so, but this article all the way back from 2014 is eye opening:


More than 1/3rd of major game releases required day 1 updates in 2014.

That number has undoubtedly increased tremendously over the years, especially over the last couple of years with development during the pandemic.

So while you will still be able to play many of those disc based games day 1, they just won't be fully featured at launch as the developers intended and may have various crippling bugs and performance issues.

Games like Elden Ring, Horizon FW, Dying Light 2 all had key day 1 patches. In case of ER, From asked DF not to do any analysis before the patch, Horizon's patch fixed various pop-in related issues etc.

Christ, did you even read the article you posted before you posted it here? It *literally proves my point* you goober.

24 out of 70 games looked at, Over half of which are minor bug fixes that are absolutely not required to play the game and numerous titles are always online/MP focused games like TitanFall! And this is looking at a minuscule sample size of *only* AAA games.

Thanks for proving my point, but maybe you should put more effort in going back to school and educating yourself in basic reading comprehension before you post again.
 

adamsapple

Gold Member
Sigh, you're clearly deliberately misconstruing my point. If that's the state in 2014, the prevalence of day 1 patches has only grown exponentially since then. I shouldn't have to link you to every modern game coming out that needs a day 1 patches that require an online connection.
 

Shmunter

Gold Member
The whole concept of cloud gaming needing a specific workforce speaks volumes. Games will no longer be twitch shooters, but slow walking sims etc.
 

Dream-Knife

Member
Think about this:

Consumers are limited to PS5 & Xbox Series X specs right now so devs can't make a game that require 32GB of RAM or over 500GB of storage but if you make a game that's being processed in the cloud you could actually make a game that's over 1TB because it don't need to be downloaded to a local console or stored on a Blu-ray
You're forgetting about PC. 3080/3090 is three to four times as powerful. 32gb of memory is becoming more common now too.
 

ZywyPL

Gold Member
Flight Sim is probably a much greater and more fully implemented version of "power of the cloud" in action, with just way too much data to be included in an offline package and so many live services running together that it pushes the complexity and exacting details of the experience beyond what you could have if it was just on your drive. We're still in a fledgling state of the technology, though (and we still only have a small handful of examples even of why we need this kind of online, networked power just to play a videogame.)

Technology and the infrastructure have probably moved on a lot in a decade, Flight Simulator hints at what is possible now.

FS2020 is just streaming a static scenery, one with very basic geometry and low res textures, but there's no computing being offloaded from the consoles/PC. By simple logic, a single frame takes 33ms to generate (16 if we're talking about 60FPS), while the latency to the servers can be even more than that, and you have to send out the input/data, then compute it, then send it back, so you're already at lease a couple of frames behing compared to what's going on locally on the console/PC. That's why I didn't believe in power of the cloud back in 2013, and that's why I still don't believe in it today. Cloud native apps, where the games are solely being calculated on the server, now that's a different story, this can indeed work (except for the added input lag).
 

onQ123

Member
You're forgetting about PC. 3080/3090 is three to four times as powerful. 32gb of memory is becoming more common now too. The true
No I'm not devs would go broke making a game & depending on people with with Super Spec PC's to recoup the money . How many people you know that would download a 500 GB - 1TB game on their SSD ?
 

DaGwaphics

Gold Member
And? That doesn’t mean the game is unplayable or even requires them to have a “Good” experience.


Those styles of games are in the minority. The vast, vast, *vast* majority of physical games even released this gen and last gen are completely functional games on disk. This is simply related.


Very few games require this, as I have stated numerous times. It is incredibly easy to check. Do some research before you make claims that are easily disprovable.

You are overlooking quite a lot. The biggest being that a console may not even allow you to run the game on the disk prior to a patch. If your console OS has ever connected online or was just newer than the date the game was pressed you could have issues utilizing that disk. I ran into this once when I was trying to play an old disk based game on the X1 when the internet was down. Physical media stopped being a great archival media in the console space as soon as the console operating systems became heavily dependent on the internet.
 

Utherellus

Member
I'll be alright with that. Does Flight Sim have a performance benefit with the cloud integration? or does it just save you storage space?

You can save space by not caching entire cities, yes.

But in general Cloud benefits game experience greatly. Landscape changes completely.



Not to mention live planetary weather.

 
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Dream-Knife

Member
No I'm not devs would go broke making a game & depending on people with with Super Spec PC's to recoup the money . How many people you know that would download a 500 GB - 1TB game on their SSD ?
Ok? Still devs aren't going to waste their time making a game you can only play on the cloud.
 

Claus Grimhildyr

Vincit qui se vincit
You are overlooking quite a lot. The biggest being that a console may not even allow you to run the game on the disk prior to a patch. If your console OS has ever connected online or was just newer than the date the game was pressed you could have issues utilizing that disk. I ran into this once when I was trying to play an old disk based game on the X1 when the internet was down. Physical media stopped being a great archival media in the console space as soon as the console operating systems became heavily dependent on the internet.

You act as if this is the norm, disproving my point. It isn’t. What you experienced is a very tiny portion of physical media, not even statistically relevant with how small the number of games that do this are compared to the greater whole.
 

pasterpl

Member
I think a lot of people, rightly so, are still thinking about “power of the cloud” from 2014, but since then tech evolved quite a lot, we could see what really this can mean with games like Flight Sim, I can see native could games being within any genre offering (intially) more detailed, bigger, more alive and interactive environments, this could be the real generation jump we have all been waiting for.

Imagine cloud native remake of Midtown Madness with full city and weather modelled using same tech as FS2020, it could also show real time road conditions (traffic jams etc.).
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Dont give a shit about cloud gaming.

But if it works and more people get to play games at good performance and latency on old or average hardware, more power to them and companies. Not everyone wants to get squeezed buying new hardware or every piece of content.

Gamers shouldn't be snobs if someone else wants to play games by streaming.

For all you anti-cloud/anti-stream gamers, you are likely a NF or Spotify user too. Or sub to any one of the other million sub plans. You can also "do the noble thing" and buy your content on disc (Amazon or Best Buy) or digital downloads direct from the net so you can brag about your 800 movie cases on your wall and terabytes of downloaded content. But chances are you havent bought a tv show, movie or song in 10 years.

Not everyone cares that much about the nuances about playing a video game or movie by direct data on your HDD or by streaming.
 
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DaGwaphics

Gold Member
You act as if this is the norm, disproving my point. It isn’t. What you experienced is a very tiny portion of physical media, not even statistically relevant with how small the number of games that do this are compared to the greater whole.

A major security update in the OS could easily invalidate every disk previously pressed. That isn't a small vector for errors.

We are far removed from the period where the kernel and tools needed to run the game were part of the disk itself.
 
Dont give a shit about cloud gaming.

But if it works and more people get to play games at good performance and latency on old or average hardware, more power to them and companies. Not everyone wants to get squeezed buying new hardware or every piece of content.

Gamers shouldn't be snobs if someone else wants to play games by streaming.

For all you anti-cloud/anti-stream gamers, you are likely a NF or Spotify user too. Or sub to any one of the other million sub plans. You can also "do the noble thing" and buy your content on disc (Amazon or Best Buy) or digital downloads direct from the net so you can brag about your 800 movie cases on your wall and terabytes of downloaded content. But chances are you havent bought a tv show, movie or song in 10 years.

Not everyone cares that much about the nuances about playing a video game or movie by direct data on your HDD or by streaming.
You might as well say that you are being ripped off for buying cars and that you could get much more expensive vehicles for cheaper by renting or using Uber.

Look, if you want to use Uber then use it, but trying to argue that the rest of us who buy our persona vehicles is arguing that they are not the same, is not fooling anyone.

You are quite able to live a rental lifsyle in real life if you wish; you can rent a home, rent whitegoods, even rent computers. But rent is rent and trying to pretend that you are saving money is not fooling anyone.
 

Edgelord79

Gold Member
If console makers aren’t looking at how to leverage these things especially now, then they will eventually get left behind.

Cloud technology is ridiculously powerful now and will be even more so in the future.
 
If console makers aren’t looking at how to leverage these things especially now, then they will eventually get left behind.

Cloud technology is ridiculously powerful now and will be even more so in the future.
Remote accessing hardware is not magic. There is a computer in a server farm that powers it. And whatever tech advancement you can have in a server, you can have in a home computer or console.

Cloud is just another term for renting hardware and accessing it remotely. Nothing wrong with that, but if you think you could somehow scale up hardware renting as to replace gaming, you are assuming enough cloud hardware to run 10,000 games simultaneously.

Cloud is fine if you just need occasional access. But the second you start thinking Cloud is some infinite source of magical power, you are no longer living in reality.
 

teezzy

Fantastik Tuna
Please. Let that IP stay dead.

Spencer should have brought back Banjo Or Conker instead of that shit.

Funny that Rare is too busy trying to figure out wtf they wanna turn Everwild into instead of just giving everyone what they actually want
 

Claus Grimhildyr

Vincit qui se vincit
A major security update in the OS could easily invalidate every disk previously pressed. That isn't a small vector for errors.

We are far removed from the period where the kernel and tools needed to run the game were part of the disk itself.

“Hey, this thing that hasn’t happened and there is no evidence of it happening could totally happen that invalidates everything you stated!“

Good lord, give me a fucking breaK.
 

SenjutsuSage

Halo TV Series Promoter - Live from: Reach
No I'm not devs would go broke making a game & depending on people with with Super Spec PC's to recoup the money . How many people you know that would download a 500 GB - 1TB game on their SSD ?

Whoa, whoa, you're wayyyyy off on this one. Devs can VERY easily make videogames requiring 32GB of RAM, do it TODAY, and it would not increase their costs by a single penny. Are you forgetting that every AAA game designed today already has what it needs to fill up a GPU with 32GB of content? They would simply on GPUs with enough RAM allow the game to store more of the game's data directly in VRAM, so that there is less need to load data into VRAM compared to GPU with much less VRAM.

Devs can already do this today if they had platforms with that much RAM. That's like saying devs don't have the ability to fill up blu ray discs.
 

Edgelord79

Gold Member
Remote accessing hardware is not magic. There is a computer in a server farm that powers it. And whatever tech advancement you can have in a server, you can have in a home computer or console.

Cloud is just another term for renting hardware and accessing it remotely. Nothing wrong with that, but if you think you could somehow scale up hardware renting as to replace gaming, you are assuming enough cloud hardware to run 10,000 games simultaneously.

Cloud is fine if you just need occasional access. But the second you start thinking Cloud is some infinite source of magical power, you are no longer living in reality.
Nah.
 

onQ123

Member
Whoa, whoa, you're wayyyyy off on this one. Devs can VERY easily make videogames requiring 32GB of RAM, do it TODAY, and it would not increase their costs by a single penny. Are you forgetting that every AAA game designed today already has what it needs to fill up a GPU with 32GB of content? They would simply on GPUs with enough RAM allow the game to store more of the game's data directly in VRAM, so that there is less need to load data into VRAM compared to GPU with much less VRAM.

Devs can already do this today if they had platforms with that much RAM. That's like saying devs don't have the ability to fill up blu ray discs.
Lol I'm not saying that using more RAM & Storage was going to increase the production cost I'm saying that if the requirements are high it's not going to be many people who can run the games which would mean the sales would be low & not recoup the production cost but if it's in the cloud anyone willing to buy or rent the game can do so.
 

kingfey

Banned
Online yes, cloud only no.
We have flight simulator which is cloud game.
You seem to be confused about cloud games.
You dont need cloud subscription like stadia, Luna or xcloud.
The game is in your system. You are just getting extra data from the datacenters, which is cloud storage. It acts as online game.

You can build complex world, and get the data from Azure.
 

SenjutsuSage

Halo TV Series Promoter - Live from: Reach
Lol I'm not saying that using more RAM & Storage was going to increase the production cost I'm saying that if the requirements are high it's not going to be many people who can run the games which would mean the sales would be low & not recoup the production cost but if it's in the cloud anyone willing to buy or rent the game can do so.


Ohh okay. Yea, you're right, such a thing won't be required for some time yet.
 
We have flight simulator which is cloud game.
You seem to be confused about cloud games.
You dont need cloud subscription like stadia, Luna or xcloud.
The game is in your system. You are just getting extra data from the datacenters, which is cloud storage. It acts as online game.

You can build complex world, and get the data from Azure.
if it is just file storage then it is like attaching Google Maps. Which is fine because it would be like netflix in that there is no processing.
It would have the benefit of making the downloaded game files smaller

However, anything that is suppose to offer processing power, would not be cheaper through the cloud. Because once you are occupying cpus, you are renting hardware. And that is when it is no longer Netflix.
 

kingfey

Banned
if it is just file storage then it is like attaching Google Maps. Which is fine because it would be like netflix in that there is no processing.
It would have the benefit of making the downloaded game files smaller

However, anything that is suppose to offer processing power, would not be cheaper through the cloud. Because once you are occupying cpus, you are renting hardware. And that is when it is no longer Netflix.
It doesnt offer power, but files and data. Since the intended consoles cant handle the processing power, which exceeds them.
It saves storages for devs.
 

kingfey

Banned
Storage is dirt cheap.
Flight Sim world alone is two petabytes, if it werent for Azure. You will need more than 200 10tb storage to sustain it.

You will need a rack server to run that game as a complete game without Azura. Then you have the ads on.
 

DaGwaphics

Gold Member
“Hey, this thing that hasn’t happened and there is no evidence of it happening could totally happen that invalidates everything you stated!“

Good lord, give me a fucking breaK.

So anyone not in 100% agreement with your opinion is trying to "invalidate" you?

This from a user crying about their "rights" being taken away in a thread about "cloud native" games that couldn't even be released or played without the cloud.


Spit Take Lol GIF by Justin


Relax, it was just an example of something that could happen, and already has on a small scale.
 
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Ozriel

Member
Online yes, cloud only no.

What’s the fundamental difference as far as the devs are concerned? It’s still games mainly running on user devices, but with some portion of it computed on remote servers.

Ultimately requires folks to be online to play the game…same with stuff like Battlefield 2042.
 
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