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Xbox June GDK: More dev memory for Series S and more.

ChiefDada

Member
Ssd is never going to be able to be a substitute for actual ram. Just look at the bandwidth difference. Gpu ram bandwidths is in the hundreds of gigabytes while the ssd is single digits. Don’t believe that guys bullcrap.

No one insinuated that it would, and in the hypothetical situation we're discussing, it wouldn't need to.
 
In terms of the consoles graphics / performance it seems the Series X is really coming into its own now. Its starting to pull away from the competition and I'm buying / playing on this device more than ever. I look forward to every incremental update and optimisation they release as it really adds up in the end even on UI related stuff.

This pushes back against the narrative that the XSS will become harder and harder to develop for. Like all consoles new techniques will become available to allow the system to do things it couldn't before. Just compare launch software on a console to games that release during its final year of support. The XSS will be no different. MS will continue to refine its development kit.
The Office Lol GIF
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Not true. 360 os was much smaller than ps3. Also ps5 screen is 4K and series is lower res which probably saves a lot of memory.

What do you mean by the bolded part ?

If you mean the front end dashboard, Series X also has a 4K dash now. It had a 1080p dash around launch but it was patched to be a 4K dash in 2021.


 
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intbal

Member
Because it's less than a GB in all probability. "Hundreds of MB" sounds pretty good. Solid PR.
It's because it varies.
From the written article:

Why are developers being told that it's 'hundreds of megabytes' more memory and not a more concrete figure? Since recording the Direct, I've discovered that the amount of memory is somewhat fluid. There's a block of new memory available to all developers, but this can be augmented by disabling system level features the game may not be using, freeing up extra memory that otherwise wouldn't be used anyway.
 

Corndog

Member
Because it's less than a GB in all probability. "Hundreds of MB" sounds pretty good. Solid PR.
I read on beyond 3d it could be variable. If an os service is not needed they are turning it off and using that memory.
Edit: It looks like I was beaten
 
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Razvedka

Member
It's because it varies.
From the written article:
One could establish an upper bound I would imagine. "Up to X amount free memory."

I'm just saying they chose to emphasize variability/hundreds of MB because the final sum of an upper bound is likely less than a gig. They're just putting the news in the best light, I don't think that qualifies as deceptive. Makes sense.
 
It's because it varies.
From the written article:

If it's fluid then that means devs can't actually program their games with it in mind, because they'll never know if the OS has the resource to drop or not. They can probably account for the extra RAM being present as some condition in their code and let the game do something with the extra RAM that isn't critical, but it's not going to be the same as a dev going "OK, now we've got 14 GB of RAM to play with, guaranteed!"

Because that's just it: it's not guaranteed it'll be 14 GB. It could be 13.6 GB, it could be 13.75 GB one minute and then 13.5 GB a couple minutes later. It's a wild variable the dev can't account for as a fixed static value so what they can do with that extra RAM will be limited and (most likely) automated in some fashion by the OS anyway.
 

Hoddi

Member
If it's fluid then that means devs can't actually program their games with it in mind, because they'll never know if the OS has the resource to drop or not. They can probably account for the extra RAM being present as some condition in their code and let the game do something with the extra RAM that isn't critical, but it's not going to be the same as a dev going "OK, now we've got 14 GB of RAM to play with, guaranteed!"

Because that's just it: it's not guaranteed it'll be 14 GB. It could be 13.6 GB, it could be 13.75 GB one minute and then 13.5 GB a couple minutes later. It's a wild variable the dev can't account for as a fixed static value so what they can do with that extra RAM will be limited and (most likely) automated in some fashion by the OS anyway.
They did say that 'there's a block of new memory available to all developers'. That makes it seem like there's some fixed baseline.

I think people are reading too much into this though.
 

Filben

Member
What about games previously released? Do they benefit from this update automatically? Do they need to be patched? Does it only apply to future games?
 

sinnergy

Member
But you see with your eyes and more correctly with your brain .. so maybe you need glasses.
 
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Hoddi

Member
this comment here is the best example of why even bothering to update the OS to 4k was a complete waste of time.

which is what I said from the very beginning... a 4k dashboard is a waste of time and resources
There's a reason they were so hesitant in the first place. It costs memory.

The one fly in the ointment here is that if you run Xbox One X on a 4K screen, you're still getting a 1080p dashboard, upscaled - just as it is on the S model. When we visited Microsoft at the end of March, the original plan was to reserve 1GB of RAM for the upgraded ultra HD dashboard, leaving 8GB total for developers. Microsoft tells us that game-makers said that they could use the extra memory, so plans for the 4K front-end were dropped. GameDVR has been upgraded to support 4K media and this does still operate in ultra HD, but otherwise, all elements of the dash are a little bit blurry owing to the upscale. The bottom line? Xbox One X features nine gigs for games, with 3GB reserved for the system.
 
If it's fluid then that means devs can't actually program their games with it in mind, because they'll never know if the OS has the resource to drop or not. They can probably account for the extra RAM being present as some condition in their code and let the game do something with the extra RAM that isn't critical, but it's not going to be the same as a dev going "OK, now we've got 14 GB of RAM to play with, guaranteed!"

Because that's just it: it's not guaranteed it'll be 14 GB. It could be 13.6 GB, it could be 13.75 GB one minute and then 13.5 GB a couple minutes later. It's a wild variable the dev can't account for as a fixed static value so what they can do with that extra RAM will be limited and (most likely) automated in some fashion by the OS anyway.
That's not how any of this works. First of all, there's a lower bound of additional space which all developers can use and 100% rely on. On top of that, game devs can disable certain system level features that are not needed for the specific game they're building, which then frees up even more additional space. Nothing about this is a "wild variable the dev can't account for".
 

01011001

Gold Member
There's a reason they were so hesitant in the first place. It costs memory.


[/URL]

yeah, and for something completely useless.

the Guide menu on the Xbox 360 was 480p, NOONE cared... and it was 480p in order to be as snappy and low profile as possible.

and that's what a good UI should be first and foremost.
easy and fast to navigate + light on the hardware

the optics are a secondary concern
 

Topher

Gold Member
DF talk about this in their new Weekly video, seem to think it will help with Series S Raytracing, although they don't know how much.
They seem to say developers are happy with the GPU but memory amount and bandwith have been the major problem.
They also talk about the bigger consoles memory and say that the Series X has 13.5gb usable Vs 12.5gb on PS5, I think this is the first confirmation we've had about the PS5 situation.

RL says this was the case "at launch". Whether Sony has made improvements to memory allocation in the past two years, we don't know. In the XSS case, they are trying to solve a problem that developers have complained about. And DF has doubts that this freed memory will make a difference:

Here is the video timestampped to where RL begins talking about the 12.5 and 13.5. The whole segment is dedicated to this subject, however.

No informations on the series x ?
Good to hear more care for the series s

It isn't that. MS is trying to alleviate a memory constraint issue that developers have come across with XSS. XSX doesn't have that problem.
 
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Riky

Banned
RL says this was the case "at launch". Whether Sony has made improvements to memory allocation in the past two years, we don't know. In the XSS case, they are trying to solve a problem that developers have complained about. And DF has doubts that this freed memory will make a difference:

Here is the video timestampped to where RL begins talking about the 12.5 and 13.5. The whole segment is dedicated to this subject, however.



It isn't that. MS is trying to alleviate a memory constraint issue that developers have come across with XSS. XSX doesn't have that problem.

I watched it obviously, there is no evidence anything changed.
 

Riky

Banned
Yes, I was providing the video so everyone could watch it. There is no evidence that it is still the same either.

True, Series X could have more memory available now.
That's the only information we have though, so until somebody says otherwise it will have to do.
 

clampzyn

Member
Yes, I was providing the video so everyone could watch it. There is no evidence that it is still the same either.
We probably wouldn't know unless devs makes a game and complains that neither PS5/Series X needs more memory or Microsoft says so since they are more transparent when it comes to this.
 

Topher

Gold Member
We probably wouldn't know unless devs makes a game and complains that neither PS5/Series X needs more memory or Microsoft says so since they are more transparent when it comes to this.

And even then, probably only way we would know is if a dev leaked updated information to DF. Devs are not going to speak publicly about this as it would probably violate their NDAs. But MS and Sony are both pretty tightlipped about this stuff. Even with this news, MS only says "hundreds of megs" of memory is freed for XSS. DF questions how much that truly is since MS doesn't give exact numbers.
 

Riky

Banned
We probably wouldn't know unless devs makes a game and complains that neither PS5/Series X needs more memory or Microsoft says so since they are more transparent when it comes to this.

I'm sure if DF knew anything different they wouldn't still be talking these figures, so in the absence of any further information we just have to accept what Richard said.
 

Riky

Banned
Eurogamer have a written article now,


"
There's also discussion of the news that Xbox Series S has more memory given to developers via a new update to the GDK development environment. The question is, can the 'hundreds of megabytes' added to the existing 8GB of memory make a significant difference? Alex suggests that we may see more RT modes, with the new RAM allocated to the BVH structures required to trace rays. As a counterpoint, I suggest that with 12.5GB of RAM available to developers on PS5 (at least at launch - and it's 13.5GB on Xbox) there's still a yawning chasm between Series S and other systems. I think any extra RAM is useful but I'm not sure how much of a game-changer it will be.

Why are developers being told that it's 'hundreds of megabytes' more memory and not a more concrete figure? Since recording the Direct, I've discovered that the amount of memory is somewhat fluid. There's a block of new memory available to all developers, but this can be augmented by disabling system level features the game may not be using, freeing up extra memory that otherwise wouldn't be used anyway."
 

DaGwaphics

Member
It's still crazy to me that they use as much RAM as they do for the OS on these consoles. You can run a full copy of Windows 10 or Linux in 2GB without issue (nothing really left over for apps) and with some tweaks to disable unnecessary processes you can lower that (especially on Linux). Although MS did take back 500MBs or so on the XSX in comparison to the X1.
 

Three

Member
DF talk about this in their new Weekly video, seem to think it will help with Series S Raytracing, although they don't know how much.
They seem to say developers are happy with the GPU but memory amount and bandwith have been the major problem.
You were the one who was saying the memory was fine and lazy devs should be using SFS and RDNA 2.
It will definitely help with BVH raytracing.

What happened to all this talk you were doing here though?:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/digi...-memory-issues.1636514/page-16#post-266168185
 
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kikkis

Member
It's still crazy to me that they use as much RAM as they do for the OS on these consoles. You can run a full copy of Windows 10 or Linux in 2GB without issue (nothing really left over for apps) and with some tweaks to disable unnecessary processes you can lower that (especially on Linux). Although MS did take back 500MBs or so on the XSX in comparison to the X1.
I think 4k resolutions and ability to capture it (not at 4k, but it has to be in ram regardless) might explain some of it.
 

Hoddi

Member
It's still crazy to me that they use as much RAM as they do for the OS on these consoles. You can run a full copy of Windows 10 or Linux in 2GB without issue (nothing really left over for apps) and with some tweaks to disable unnecessary processes you can lower that (especially on Linux). Although MS did take back 500MBs or so on the XSX in comparison to the X1.
Hypervisors always add some overhead. Then you also have the DVR, voice chat, etc. running in the background.

Windows/Linux also benefit from having a page/swap file which I don't think the consoles have. So, they need to keep some amount of memory free in case you want to open the browser or online store. It's reserved memory rather than memory that is all actively in use.
 

clampzyn

Member
Windows/Linux also benefit from having a page/swap file which I don't think the consoles have. So, they need to keep some amount of memory free in case you want to open the browser or online store. It's reserved memory rather than memory that is all actively in use.
Xbox is literally windows with a modified UI, it's very high likely has page/swap file reserved, having only around 820gb for game storage would much likely indicate some of those is for page/swap file. I could be wrong though so take my comment with a grain of salt.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
And/or PS5
Traditionally, Sony has also released more memory to developers as OS/resource footprints shrink. They're just more quiet about it to the general public.

You were the one who was saying the memory was fine and lazy devs should be using SFS and RDNA 2.
It will definitely help with BVH raytracing.

What happened to all this talk you were doing here though?:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/digi...-memory-issues.1636514/page-16#post-266168185
Deez Nuts GIF
 
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DarkMage619

Report me if I continue to console war
You were the one who was saying the memory was fine and lazy devs should be using SFS and RDNA 2.
It will definitely help with BVH raytracing.

What happened to all this talk you were doing here though?:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/digi...-memory-issues.1636514/page-16#post-266168185
You have any evidence devs started using SFS and are still having memory issues regardless? Seems to me some hardware features are available to manage memory on the XSS but devs aren't using them. Hopefully they'll start.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Eurogamer have a written article now,


"
There's also discussion of the news that Xbox Series S has more memory given to developers via a new update to the GDK development environment. The question is, can the 'hundreds of megabytes' added to the existing 8GB of memory make a significant difference? Alex suggests that we may see more RT modes, with the new RAM allocated to the BVH structures required to trace rays. As a counterpoint, I suggest that with 12.5GB of RAM available to developers on PS5 (at least at launch - and it's 13.5GB on Xbox) there's still a yawning chasm between Series S and other systems. I think any extra RAM is useful but I'm not sure how much of a game-changer it will be.

Why are developers being told that it's 'hundreds of megabytes' more memory and not a more concrete figure? Since recording the Direct, I've discovered that the amount of memory is somewhat fluid. There's a block of new memory available to all developers, but this can be augmented by disabling system level features the game may not be using, freeing up extra memory that otherwise wouldn't be used anyway."

Good shit.

A more performant Series S shouldn't really be an issue for anyone, but here we are.
 

01011001

Gold Member
I wonder if iD might be able to retroactively implement raytracing into Doom Eternal for the Series S.
the GPU more than capable enough
 

Three

Member
You have any evidence devs started using SFS and are still having memory issues regardless? Seems to me some hardware features are available to manage memory on the XSS but devs aren't using them. Hopefully they'll start.
Look. I couldn't care less to get into a back and forth with you about memory management and the headache that it is for different devs/engines. All I know is that it's ridiculous to change stance so often and quickly. To say memory problems do not exist and it's "lies from the usual suspects" then tomorrow when they are improved site it as the major problem now overcome. It's always the same with you lot.
 

DarkMage619

Report me if I continue to console war
Look. I couldn't care less to get into a back and forth with you about memory management and the headache that it is for different devs/engines. All I know is that it's ridiculous to change stance so often and quickly. To say memory problems do not exist and it's "lies from the usual suspects" then tomorrow when they are improved site it as the major problem now overcome. It's always the same with you lot.
Sounds like a strawman to me. There are no absolutes to game development. For every dev claiming to have issues there are devs who claim there are no problems at all. The 'lies from usual suspects' are the people who coincidentally don't have the platform exaggerating that this is a universal problem with no solution.

Riky Riky was rightly questioning if the features of the platform were being used. Since the evidence points to no, it is completely reasonable to question the veracity of the claims that the XSS has some sort of fundamental problem. Thankfully those who are most 'concerned' have little to worry about because they don't own the system anyway.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I wonder if iD might be able to retroactively implement raytracing into Doom Eternal for the Series S.
the GPU more than capable enough

Wondering if they felt the need to free up resources so they can have parity in first party games like Forza Motorsport coming next year.
 
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