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[saturnalian]

Edit, wrong quote

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

ok dude, but just so you know, the fact that "21 years have passed" doesn't mean FF can't make another turn-based game, if the fans really want it.

The devs from all business divisions have decided that they don’t want to go in that direction for mainline FF’s anymore. Period.

 

[Lethal01]

Yoshida POV in regard to the core fanbase

Turn based folk are not the core fan base.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

ok dude, but just so you know, the fact that "21 years have passed" doesn't mean FF can't make another turn-based game, if the fans really want it.

Okay well as a fan since FF1, that’s the last thing I want. I can’t stand turn based combat anymore. Good riddance.

Best part about all the various remakes/remasters is the auto-battle feature. Then you don’t have to sit there mindlessly picking “attack” from a menu over and over until you win.

 

[The artful mincer]

Smart man this Yoshida dude I wonder if he's had any success directing videogames!

Seriously after experiencing the bloat of both horizon and elden ring I couldn't agree more and there 2 of the better ones!

There definitely need to be more open zone games and less open worlds.

 

[Kev Kev]

There definitely need to be more open zone games and less open worlds.

zones are cool with me if done right, but i also think there is room for smaller open worlds that can be done right.

 

[The artful mincer]

zones are cool with me if done right, but i also think there is room for smaller open worlds that can be done right.

I agree smaller denser open worlds might be better.

I do agree with Yoshida that open worlds ironically feel small despite objectively being big. Zones will work better for final fantasy with maybe an over world for boats and airships Dragon Quest 11 basically

I think having access to the whole map at the start makes it feel small. You don't ever feel like your going on a journey just running errands back and forth across the map

 

[Kev Kev]

I agree smaller denser open worlds might be better.

I do agree with Yoshida that open worlds ironically feel small despite objectively being big. Zones will work better for final fantasy with maybe an over world for boats and airships Dragon Quest 11 basically

I think having access to the whole map at the start makes it feel small. You don't ever feel like your going on a journey just running errands back and forth across the map

agreed. especially with the last bit. thats a great point, i hadnt thought of it like that, well said

 

[IFireflyl]

Once again, the last turn-based mainline FF game came out in freaking 2001. 21 years ago. It’s been non-turn-based for longer than it was turn-based.

If you prefer turn-based then whatever, that’s your preference. But stop acting like this is some dramatic new turn of events and a slap in the face for the fans.

ok dude, but just so you know, the fact that "21 years have passed" doesn't mean FF can't make another turn-based game, if the fans really want it.

The last turn-based mainline Final Fantasy was Final Fantasy XIII-2, and it was released in December of 2011. You're off by an entire decade.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

The last turn-based mainline Final Fantasy was Final Fantasy XIII-2, and it was released in December of 2011. You're off by an entire decade.

Oh shut up. I’m not going to get into some pedantic argument over what constitutes “turn based” and what constitutes “mainline”. Feel free to believe that if you want. You’re wrong. Adios.

 

[Kimahri]

Oh shut up. I’m not going to get into some pedantic argument over what constitutes “turn based” and what constitutes “mainline”. Feel free to believe that if you want. You’re wrong. Adios.

You don't think XIII is turn based?

What's with the attitude?

 

[Punished Miku]

You don't think XIII is turn based?

What's with the attitude?

I personally don't think it's turn based. It's ATB. I think a lot of people confuse turn based for "control the game through a menu," but that's just me.

Adios ... bitches.

 

[Kimahri]

I personally don't think it's turn based. It's ATB. I think a lot of people confuse turn based for "control the game through a menu," but that's just me.

Adios ... bitches.

That it's even up for debate suggests it might not be that simple.

Buh bye

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

You don't think XIII is turn based?

What's with the attitude?

Oh come on. When people say “I wish they’d finally make another mainline turn based FF game” they aren’t talking about a game like freaking FF XIII-2. Nobody believes that.

And I’ve been around the JRPG/FF community long enough to know how these stupid semantic arguments play out. Not interested.

 

[Ezquimacore]

This game has all the reg flags I don't want on a FF game.

 

[IFireflyl]

Oh shut up. I’m not going to get into some pedantic argument over what constitutes “turn based” and what constitutes “mainline”. Feel free to believe that if you want. You’re wrong. Adios.

You need to calm down and just admit that you made a mistake. There's nothing wrong with that. People are sometimes wrong. There is no need to be a salty jerk and tell me to shut up for pointing it out (while not issuing any insults I might add).

When you can't perform actions without waiting for the timer/bar/whatever to fill up then that is a turn-based system. You are literally waiting for your turn. While you are waiting you can't perform any actions. You can't attack, or defend, or cast spells, or use items, or perform any other action. You can't do anything other than wait.

Final Fantasy VII, VIII, and IX were all turn-based even though they used the ATB system. The difference is that you get to see the bar that shows when you can perform the action, and everyone else can still perform their actions when their turn comes up even if you're still figuring out what you want to do on your turn. Final Fantasy XIII and XIII-2 functioned this way, and there is no argument that Final Fantasy XIII was a mainline Final Fantasy, and that still came out in 2009 which was 8 years after 2001. Whether you consider Final Fantasy XIII-2 to be a mainline Final Fantasy game or not you were still incorrect in your statement. Get over it.

Oh come on. When people say “I wish they’d finally make another mainline turn based FF game” they aren’t talking about a game like freaking FF XIII-2. Nobody believes that.

And I’ve been around the JRPG/FF community long enough to know how these stupid semantic arguments play out. Not interested.

You've been on this forum for two years. You're not some well-known established member that everyone loves. You're just some random nobody on the internet getting pissy because you said something that was incorrect, and when (politely) told that you copped an attitude. Grow up.

 

[Punished Miku]

You need to calm down and just admit that you made a mistake. There's nothing wrong with that. People are sometimes wrong. There is no need to be a salty jerk and tell me to shut up for pointing it out (while not issuing any insults I might add).

When you can't perform actions without waiting for the timer/bar/whatever to fill up then that is a turn-based system. You are literally waiting for your turn. While you are waiting you can't perform any actions. You can't attack, or defend, or cast spells, or use items, or perform any other action. You can't do anything other than wait.

Final Fantasy VII, VIII, and IX were all turn-based even though they used the ATB system. The difference is that you get to see the bar that shows when you can perform the action, and everyone else can still perform their actions when their turn comes up even if you're still figuring out what you want to do on your turn. Final Fantasy XIII and XIII-2 functioned this way, and there is no argument that Final Fantasy XIII was a mainline Final Fantasy, and that still came out in 2009 which was 8 years after 2001. Whether you consider Final Fantasy XIII-2 to be a mainline Final Fantasy game or not you were still incorrect in your statement. Get over it.

Turn based. When it's your turn, everything stops. Take your turn.

ACTIVE TIME battle. The time is active. This is the opposite of a turn. It's a cooldown meter, which you see in any number of action games. The confusion comes from the fact that the game is played in a menu, so it "feels" turn based, but it's not.

Spoiler

Your mom's so fat the cursor auto-defaults to "defend" on every turn.

 

[IFireflyl]

Turn based. When it's your turn, everything stops. Take your turn.

ACTIVE TIME battle. The time is active. This is the opposite of a turn. It's a cooldown meter, which you see in any number of action games. The confusion comes from the fact that the game is played in a menu, so it "feels" turn based, but it's not.

Spoiler

Your mom's so fat the cursor auto-defaults to "defend" on every turn.

Turn-based doesn't mean that everything has to stop when it is your turn. ATB says that everyone has to wait for their turn to act, BUT the timer can be moving for everyone at the same time, and people can perform their actions whenever they are ready.

Timekeeping in games - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

ATB is a sub-type of turn-based combat. There are different types of turn-based combat, and that's not up for debate. When you cannot perform any action until your timer/bar/gauge/whatever fills up then that is turn-based combat.

 

[Fuz]

Whether you consider Final Fantasy XIII-2 to be a mainline Final Fantasy game or not

Square considers it a mainline FF, in any case.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Who cares when the last TB FF game was. That shit is dead and should stay dead

 

[Punished Miku]

Turn-based doesn't mean that everything has to stop when it is your turn. ATB says that everyone has to wait for their turn to act, BUT the timer can be moving for everyone at the same time, and people can perform their actions whenever they are ready.

Timekeeping in games - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

ATB is a sub-type of turn-based combat. There are different types of turn-based combat, and that's not up for debate. When you cannot perform any action until your timer/bar/gauge/whatever fills up then that is turn-based combat.

Yeah, but what happens when you your bar fills up and you don't do anything? The enemy can go as many times as they want while you just sit and wait. There's no turn. It's literally just a bar representing the real passage of time.

"A turn-based strategy (TBS) game is a strategy game (usually some type of wargame, especially a strategic-level wargame) where players take turns when playing. This is distinguished from real-time strategy (RTS), in which all players play simultaneously."

Turn-based strategy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Turn-based games have game flow that is partitioned into defined parts, called turns, moves, or plays.[1][2] A player of a turn-based game is allowed a period of analysis (sometimes bounded, sometimes unbounded) before committing to a game action, ensuring a separation between the game flow and the thinking process, which in turn presumably leads to better choices. Once every player has taken his or her turn, that round of play is over, and any special shared processing is done. This is followed by the next round of play. In games where the game flow unit is time, turns may represent periods such as years, months, weeks or days.

In any FF game with ATB, everyone is playing simultaneously with different cooldowns. No one stops and waits on anyone's turn. There is no turns. It's just that the user interface is a menu and a cursor so everyone is confused about it because it "feels turn based.

 

[Kimahri]

Oh come on. When people say “I wish they’d finally make another mainline turn based FF game” they aren’t talking about a game like freaking FF XIII-2. Nobody believes that.

And I’ve been around the JRPG/FF community long enough to know how these stupid semantic arguments play out. Not interested.

Lol, if you're not interested, why do you dive in here causing a stink?

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Who cares when the last TB FF game was. That shit is dead and should stay dead

Says who

 

[Beer Baelly]

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Says who

Says Square

 

[IFireflyl]

Oh come on. When people say “I wish they’d finally make another mainline turn based FF game” they aren’t talking about a game like freaking FF XIII-2. Nobody believes that.

And I’ve been around the JRPG/FF community long enough to know how these stupid semantic arguments play out. Not interested.

Turn based. When it's your turn, everything stops. Take your turn.

ACTIVE TIME battle. The time is active. This is the opposite of a turn. It's a cooldown meter, which you see in any number of action games. The confusion comes from the fact that the game is played in a menu, so it "feels" turn based, but it's not.

Spoiler

Your mom's so fat the cursor auto-defaults to "defend" on every turn.

From Takashi Tokita on the ATB system:

―What was your impression when you first saw the ATB system?

Tokita: The initial run of it just had everyone act in turn based on who was fastest. You couldn’t tell at all what was going on, so there was no time to think about weaknesses or anything of the sort and you just ended up spamming buttons... [laughs] We came to the conclusion that would never work, and I think from there we tried various things, eventually getting to where we tweaked the battles using a “waiting time.” We made it a little easier to play by implementing rules that included being able to “attack” right away, or things like strong summons and certain types of magic having a delay before they would activate.
Mr. Hiroyuki Ito created the battle system, and he was into watching F1 races. Apparently he came up with the ATB system when looking at the cars behind on laps, realizing that if someone was fast they could attack twice in one turn, while slower characters would only attack one time per turn. I think the process for getting to where the ATB system worked was through rules thought up for each character, like Edge being able to attack twice in a turn but having low attack power.

―This is also true of FFI through FFIII, but FFIV is a pretty difficult game. It felt like each and every battle was such a struggle...

Tokita: Yeah, FFI is hard because there’s limits on how many times you could use magic, and FFII’s skill system is what SaGa came to be based on, which isn’t easy either. FFIII progressed pretty quickly and you could change jobs when you wanted to, but in contrast the last dungeon is just devilishly long. [laughs] Even the common enemies in FFIV’s final dungeon were very strong. Every battle feeling like a struggle might come from FFIV being the first implementation of enemies that react in battle – the ones that do something in response to certain actions by the player. For example, you might attack a fire element enemy with water because naturally you’d think they’re weak to it, but instead you get counter-attacked. With ATB, counters take place in between typical attacks, so that probably made the battles feel tougher.

Source: https://na.finalfantasy.com/topics/296

Square Enix, who created the ATB system, considers ATB to be turn-based and designed it to enhance turn-based combat. This makes it more realistic, but it is still not real-time combat. You are still forced to wait for your turn to come around in order to act.

Yeah, but what happens when you your bar fills up and you don't do anything? The enemy can go as many times as they want while you just sit and wait. There's no turn. It's literally just a bar representing the real passage of time.

Some Final Fantasy games allowed switching between Active and Wait. If Wait is selected then all other ATB gauges are paused. With Active all other ATB gauges are moving even while you're deciding on your action. Some Final Fantasy games removed the Active/Wait options, but gave the option to fill the ATB gauge slower to give you more time to select your commands when your turn comes up. That is what Final Fantasy XIII does. If you don't select anything the enemy can still go because their turn still comes up. That doesn't negate the fact that you had to wait for your turn and chose to wait to execute your action.

 

[IFireflyl]

Says Square

Tactics Ogre: Reborn says otherwise.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Tactics Ogre: Reborn says otherwise.

Lol a remaster

Gotta scrape from the bottom of the barrel

 

[yurinka]

Then how come Ubisoft churns out 2-3 open world games per year?

Having over 20000 workers plus several external outsourcing teams, rehashing stuff from previous similar ones and working on several games at the same time (their games aren't made in 1/2/3 years).

I don't really get all the talk and drama over the real time combat.

Real time combat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NES-like turn based combat

 

[Astral Dog]

Good, i welcome our new action overlords

 

[Punished Miku]

Square Enix, who created the ATB system, considers ATB to be turn-based and designed it to enhance turn-based combat. This makes it more realistic, but it is still not real-time combat. You are still forced to wait for your turn to come around in order to act.

That's not an accurate summary of what he said. He said originally it was turn based. Then they changed it lol. It's fine to read how they thought it up as an evolution from turn based. It evolved from turn based into something new that was no longer turn based. It was simultaneous, real time combat with different rates of cooldown for actions and attribute speed. That's not turn based. There is no turn. No one stops; period. You don't wait your turn. You wait to use an ability, or not use an ability. You don't have to act at all, and if you're slow picking a move then the enemy will go multiple times meaning there is NO TURN.

If you put the game in wait mode, then yeah it's turn based. The enemy is forced to wait on you since it's your turn.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Lol, if you're not interested, why do you dive in here causing a stink?

Okay answer me this, when someone says “Square needs to make another mainline turn based Final Fantasy” do you think that person is imagining FF XIII-2 as the last time S-E delivered such a game? Bullshit. Nobody believes that. Anybody who has had even the slightest exposure to the FF community knows that’s not the case.

Nah, it’s just some catty pedantic person trying to win an argument by splitting hairs about semantics. I’m not interested in arguing about whether XIII-2 technically falls into the “turn based” vs “real time” category or whether it belongs in “mainline” vs “spinoff”. You can quote the shit out of each other and argue line by line all day and not get anywhere. Have fun.

Bottom line is it doesn’t matter. Nobody is talking about XIII-2 when they’re fantasizing about mainline FF returning to its glorious turn-based roots. Nobody.

 

[Thabass]

So, ATB isn't actually turn-based. Since you can still be attacked while it is your turn and IF the setting set to active. I can see the case being made if you set the ATB option is set to Wait, because then you would have to wait for someone's action.

ATB is kind of a weird hybrid where you could consider it turn-based. But, generally, Active Time Battle was designed to eliminate turn-based gameplay.

 

[IFireflyl]

That's not an accurate summary of what he said. He said originally it was turn based. Then they changed it lol. It's fine to read how they thought it up as an evolution from turn based. It evolved from turn based into something new that was no longer turn based. It was simultaneous, real time combat with different rates of cooldown for actions and attribute speed. That's not turn based. There is no turn. No one stops; period. You don't wait your turn. You wait to use an ability, or not use an ability. You don't have to act at all, and if you're slow picking a move then the enemy will go multiple times meaning there is NO TURN.

If you put the game in wait mode, then yeah it's turn based. The enemy is forced to wait on you since it's your turn.

When you have to wait until your turn to act then it is turn-based. Turns can be simultaneous:

Turn-based games have game flow that is partitioned into defined parts, called turns, moves, or plays.[1][2] A player of a turn-based game is allowed a period of analysis (sometimes bounded, sometimes unbounded) before committing to a game action, ensuring a separation between the game flow and the thinking process, which in turn presumably leads to better choices. Once every player has taken his or her turn, that round of play is over, and any special shared processing is done. This is followed by the next round of play. In games where the game flow unit is time, turns may represent periods such as years, months, weeks or days.

Turn-based games come in two main forms depending on whether, play is simultaneous or sequential. The former games fall under the category of simultaneously executed games (also called phase-based or "We-Go"), with Diplomacy being a notable example. The latter games fall into player-alternated games (also called "I-Go-You-Go", or "IGOUGO" for short), and are further subdivided into (A) ranked, (B) round-robin start and (C) random—the difference being the order under which players start within a turn: (A) the first player being the same every time, (B) the first player selection policy is round-robin, and (C) the first player is randomly selected. Some games also base the order of play on an "initiative" score that may in part be based on players' attributes or positions within the game or other, outside factors as well as dice rolls. Wizard101 is an example of this style.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turns,_rounds_and_time-keeping_systems_in_games

Simultaneous turns are used to speed up game play. There are only two options for combat: simultaneous or real-time. ATB doesn't fall under the real-time category since you can't make actions in real-time. That leaves the remaining option to be turn-based, and it is a specific type of turn-based combat. It's like having sub-genres of video games. Final Fantasy VII falls in the RPG genre under the sub-genre of JRPG. Final Fantasy VII has Chocobo Racing which by itself could fall into the racing genre, but the game as a whole isn't a Racing game. ATB has real-time aspects, but as a whole it has characteristics that mean it cannot fall into the real-time category. The only other option is turn-based, and it fits perfectly in this category, even though it has real-time elements.

 

[Punished Miku]

When you have to wait until your turn to act

Stop right there. "Turn."

If your cooldown timer is done, and you casually look through all your options and try and think of what to do and go super super slow then the enemy will hit you 3-4 times in a row. You have NO TURN.

Define what a turn is. There's no turn. The enemy has no obligation to wait for you to do anything before acting again.

"Oh cool, it's my turn. Wait why did the enemy hit me again?"

 

[IFireflyl]

Stop right there. "Turn."

If your cooldown timer is done, and you casually look through all your options and try and think of what to do and go super super slow then the enemy will hit you 3-4 times in a row. You have NO TURN.

Define what a turn is. There's no turn. The enemy has no obligation to wait for you to do anything before acting again.

"Oh cool, it's my turn. Wait why did the enemy hit me again?"

A turn is an opportunity (not necessarily a requirement, although in some contexts it is a requirement) to do something. Real-time lets you constantly have the opportunity to do something. Turn-based makes you wait between actions. Just because you can squander the opportunity to act doesn't negate that it is your turn (or opportunity) to perform an action.

 

[Punished Miku]

A turn is an opportunity (not necessarily a requirement, although in some contexts it is a requirement) to do something. Real-time lets you constantly have the opportunity to do something. Turn-based makes you wait between actions. Just because you can squander the opportunity to act doesn't negate that it is your turn (or opportunity) to perform an action.

And that's where I fundamentally disagree. That's not what a turn is. If you're playing a game with turns, then the people playing take turns. The other person cannot act during your turn.

You've basically mangled the definition of a turn into meaninglessness. Carry on if you want, but that's not what a turn is and you're wrong. When you're playing Monopoly do people just have cooldown timers? This is clown shoes.

 

[Kimahri]

Okay answer me this, when someone says “Square needs to make another mainline turn based Final Fantasy” do you think that person is imagining FF XIII-2 as the last time S-E delivered such a game? Bullshit. Nobody believes that. Anybody who has had even the slightest exposure to the FF community knows that’s not the case.

Nah, it’s just some catty pedantic person trying to win an argument by splitting hairs about semantics. I’m not interested in arguing about whether XIII-2 technically falls into the “turn based” vs “real time” category or whether it belongs in “mainline” vs “spinoff”. You can quote the shit out of each other and argue line by line all day and not get anywhere. Have fun.

Bottom line is it doesn’t matter. Nobody is talking about XIII-2 when they’re fantasizing about mainline FF returning to its glorious turn-based roots. Nobody.

Talk to someone who cares about that discussion as much as you do.

 

[IFireflyl]

And that's where I fundamentally disagree. That's not what a turn is. If you're playing a game with turns, then the people playing take turns. The other person cannot act during your turn.

You've basically mangled the definition of a turn into meaninglessness. Carry on if you want, but that's not what a turn is and you're wrong. When you're playing Monopoly do people just have cooldown timers? This is clown shoes.

Feel free to disagree, but you're changing the actual definition of a turn to fit what you want it to be. Your definition is made up. Mine is the actual definition.

turn
noun
/tɝːn/
turn noun (TIME TO DO STH)
an opportunity or a duty to do something at a particular time or in a particular order, before or after other people:
is it my turn yet?
[ + to infinitive ] I waited so long for my turn to see the job counselor that I missed my bus.
It's your turn to do the dishes!
In this game if you give the wrong answer you have to skip a turn.

With some games your turn (or opportunity to act) is based on a timer. With other games your turn is based on a particular order. You're referring to turn-based as ONLY the games that force you to play in a particular order and without simultaneous turns, but that isn't how "turn" or "turn-based" is defined.

ATB fits the above (standard) definition of the word turn. It is an opportunity... to do something... at a particular time... before or after other people. Opportunity does not mean requirement. You can play Final Fantasy XIII and do nothing when you have the opportunity to act. That doesn't negate that it is your turn.

 

[Punished Miku]

Feel free to disagree, but you're changing the actual definition of a turn to fit what you want it to be. Your definition is made up. Mine is the actual definition.



With some games your turn (or opportunity to act) is based on a timer. With other games your turn is based on a particular order. You're referring to turn-based as ONLY the games that force you to play in a particular order and without simultaneous turns, but that isn't how "turn" or "turn-based" is defined.

ATB fits the above (standard) definition of the word turn. It is an opportunity... to do something... at a particular time... before or after other people. Opportunity does not mean requirement. You can play Final Fantasy XIII and do nothing when you have the opportunity to act. That doesn't negate that it is your turn.

Your reading of the definition is non-sensical though. All you're looking at is "opportunity." With that reading of it any game where you ever have the ability to act at any point is turn based. Real time games give you the opportunity to act as well. Every single game eventually or constantly gives you the opportunity to act. Fighting games have different frame data recovery on slow moves so that's turn based in this reading.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Talk to someone who cares about that discussion as much as you do.

Okay? You’re the one who started talking to me although you haven’t made a single point or said anything worthwhile. Hope you’re enjoying the stimulating debate that will probably go on for 100 more posts. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[IFireflyl]

Your reading of the definition is non-sensical though. All you're looking at is "opportunity." With that reading of it any game where you ever have the ability to act at any point is turn based. Real time games give you the opportunity to act as well. Every single game eventually or constantly gives you the opportunity to act. Fighting games have different frame data recovery on slow moves so that's turn based in this reading.

Frame rate delay, input lag, and other similar scenarios do not make a game turn-based. An unintended consequence of losing milliseconds of time to act because of technology that is not yet advanced enough to function instantaneously doesn't somehow render a game turn-based.

What I said above is not nonsensical, and you're conflating "turn" with "turn-based". Turn-based combat means that you are intentionally prevented from acting the moment you complete your previous action. This can be done by either implementing a specific turn order, or by instituting a counter/timer (ATB), and possibly other ways that I'm simply not thinking of off the top of my head. The purpose of turn-based combat is to provide a period of time to consider your next action.

By contrast, real-time games make it so that your turn is always available. This means that you always have the opportunity to act once you have completed your previous action. In essence: it's always your turn.

 

[Punished Miku]

Frame rate delay, input lag, and other similar scenarios do not make a game turn-based. An unintended consequence of losing milliseconds of time to act because of technology that is not yet advanced enough to function instantaneously doesn't somehow render a game turn-based.

What I said above is not nonsensical, and you're conflating "turn" with "turn-based". Turn-based combat means that you are intentionally prevented from acting the moment you complete your previous action. This can be done by either implementing a specific turn order, or by instituting a counter/timer (ATB), and possibly other ways that I'm simply not thinking of off the top of my head. The purpose of turn-based combat is to provide a period of time to consider your next action.

By contrast, real-time games make it so that your turn is always available. This means that you always have the opportunity to act once you have completed your previous action. In essence: it's always your turn.

Frame data in fighting games is not the product of technical limitations. Its purposefully calibrated with some moves being slow on recovery explicitly to ensure that the opponent has the opportunity to attack and that it is their turn after a successful block. It fits your extremely reductionist and absurd reading of the definition. The definition you cited doest mention seconds or milliseconds. Reading it in the nonsensical way you were makes literally every game ever made a turn based game. Because you basically can't define accurately what a turn is when everyone knows.

Prevented from acting. Yes, that is what makes a turn. You almost said it.

 

[IFireflyl]

Frame data in fighting games is not the product of technical limitations. Its purposefully calibrated with some moves being slow on recovery explicitly to ensure that the opponent has the opportunity to attack and that it is their turn after a successful block. It fits your extremely reductionist and absurd reading of the definition. The definition you cited doest mention seconds or milliseconds. Reading it in the nonsensical way you were makes literally every game ever made a turn based game. Because you basically can't define accurately what a turn is when everyone knows.

The frame data is included in the completion of the action though. That's a built-in delay that isn't intended to give you time to consider your next action, but rather due to mitigating things like input and network lag to give all players an equal footing. That's not turn-based. You're ignoring intent and being intentionally obtuse about this. Everything I said makes logical sense, and your whataboutism is ridiculous.

 

[Skelterz]

Ironically keeping the turn based battle system would have allowed them to develop a game like dragon quest XI in scope but in a mature setting, Pity the trade off is boring button mashing in a segmented psudo chapter select.. Makes you wonder who’s making these poor decisions.

 

[Yoshichan]

First of all, open world games are fucking ass. ASS. Zone based games are the future (see: FFXII, FFXIV etc).

Second of all, leave traditional ATB-based games to Dragon Quest. Final Fantasy is about INNOVATION. Fuck ATB, ya'll ATB-lovers can continue enjoying the 15+ other Final Fantasy titles with that bullshit.

I bet you guys just suck ass at real, manly games like God Hand and Devil May Cry and you're afraid your 40 year old fingers won't be able to catch up with mega-God-fingers like mine.

 

[Kaachan]

First of all, open world games are fucking ass. ASS. Zone based games are the future (see: FFXII, FFXIV etc).

Second of all, leave traditional ATB-based games to Dragon Quest. Final Fantasy is about INNOVATION. Fuck ATB, ya'll ATB-lovers can continue enjoying the 15+ other Final Fantasy titles with that bullshit.

I bet you guys just suck ass at real, manly games like God Hand and Devil May Cry and you're afraid your 40 year old fingers won't be able to catch up with mega-God-fingers like mine.

Spoken like a true Yoshi

 

[mortal]

Ironically keeping the turn based battle system would have allowed them to develop a game like dragon quest XI in scope but in a mature setting, Pity the trade off is boring button mashing in a segmented psudo chapter select.. Makes you wonder who’s making these poor decisions.

lol boring button mashing?

The battle director for FFXVI is Ryota Suzuki, whole previously helped design the combat for Dragon's Dogma and Devil May Cry 5.
I doubt anyone familiar with either of those titles would consider them to be neither boring nor button-mashing games. The combat in the DMC games are very much skill-focused and fun to master.

With the segments of gameplay showcased so far, I don't understand how anyone can see a resume like that and come to the conclusion that FFXVI is going to be a "boring button mashing."

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

First of all, open world games are fucking ass. ASS. Zone based games are the future (see: FFXII, FFXIV etc).

Second of all, leave traditional ATB-based games to Dragon Quest. Final Fantasy is about INNOVATION. Fuck ATB, ya'll ATB-lovers can continue enjoying the 15+ other Final Fantasy titles with that bullshit.

I bet you guys just suck ass at real, manly games like God Hand and Devil May Cry and you're afraid your 40 year old fingers won't be able to catch up with mega-God-fingers like mine.

You brain dead gaijin dudebros just can’t wrap your head around complex, strategic turn based gameplay where you pick “attack” from a menu until you win.

 

[Meicyn]

Makes you wonder who’s making these poor decisions.

Why wonder when we already know? It’s Naoki Yoshida, someone who is the primary reason Square Enix is profitable despite decisions made elsewhere in the company. The man who replaced Hiromichi Tanaka and turned FFXIV from one of the greatest failures in the franchise ever into arguably one of the greatest Final Fantasy games of all time.

The man on the right is the aforementioned Naoki Yoshida, who is in charge of FFXVI’s production. To the left is Hironobu Sakaguchi, also known as Mr. Finalfantasy since he created the series. Sakaguchi has recently been spending a lot of time hanging out with Square Enix Creative Business Unit 3 employees lately. Why? Because he is having the time of his life right now. Sakaguchi is obsessed with FFXIV. The dude can’t get enough. It’s the most Final Fantasy game Square Enix has released in a long time, and even the series creator knows it.

The trust built up from scratch by Yoshida over the last ten years is a good reason why some of us are so excited for FFXVI. He is transparent, and consistent. He doesn’t drop trailers and then have players wait for years as a product goes through development hell. He reads social media and message boards. He is still an active gamer like us, playing everything from Horizon to World of Warcraft (he grew up as a huge Blizzard fan).

The complaints and concerns people have been making about the direction of this game have been interesting to say the least and certainly valid, but all I can do is just shake my head when people make commentary about how ”the folks in charge” are supposedly clueless or making poor decisions. Actually, it’s you who just doesn’t get it. But that’s fine. Nitpick the individual pieces. Just know that some things are more than the sum of their parts. Creative Business Unit 3 has shown themselves to be an incredibly talented team based on what they’ve done with XIV, so it’s no surprise they were given free reign over the company’s most important franchise and asked to make the next single-player mainline title. Even Sakaguchi is excited.

Final Fantasy XVI will not be to your exact expectations, but it’s going to be an experience to say the least. It’d be a shame if you missed out.